What happens to Spells Known if you no longer meet prerequisites requirement for PRC?

[SinsI]

Let's say someone plays Sorcerer 5/Enlightened Fist 10, and he got the Improved Unarmed Strike feat that is prerequisite for Enlightened Fist via Heroics spell. What happens to Sorcerer's spellcasting, especially to his "Spells Known", when that spell expires and he no longer qualifies for the PRC in question? And what happens when you get the prerequisite back?

Complete Arcane (class from which Enlightened Fist is) explicitly says that "if you no longer meet the requirements of a prestige class, you lose all special abilities(but not Hit Dice, base attack bonus or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class".

Can it be abused to "prepare" Sorcerer with a completely new set of spells known each time you renew your Heroics?

[atemu1234]

If you no longer meet the prerequisites, you lose all features. Though my opinion is you keep the spells known, spells per day, and lose the other class features, I don't know what the actual RAW is on this.

[Hunter Noventa]

That is a tricky one. You keep your HD, BaB and Save advancement and skill points. If the class had it's own spells known progression like say, Assassin, then yeah I'd say you lose them, but if it just does the '+1 level of existing spellcasting class' that seems more tied to your level/HD, and that you'd keep them.

But I don't think there's a RAW rule for this, unless there's somewhere that breaks down what is a class feature and what isn't, aside from what shows up in that column, which spellcasting usually does not, but is it's own column.

[Jack_Simth]

It's arguable.

The 3.5 DMG PrC section doesn't list any consequences for losing PrC requirements.
Complete Warrior says you lose pretty much everything for losing PrC requirements.
The 3.0 DMG PrC section used to agree with Complete Warrior.

So the consequences were removed in the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition from the DMG. Complete Warrior - one of the earliest 3.5 books - included a verbatim copy of the 3.0 consequences.

If you consider the DMG to be the primary source on PrC mechanics and treat the Complete Warrior blurb as being an editing error in the edition transition, then losing a requirement for a PrC doesn't hurt anything. If you instead treat Complete Warrior as being a clairification, then losing a requirement for a PrC hurts very very badly (and has such funny results as hitting a Blackguard with Ray of Enfeeblement to negate Dark Blessing).

[SinsI]

It's arguable.

The 3.5 DMG PrC section doesn't list any consequences for losing PrC requirements.
Complete Warrior says you lose pretty much everything for losing PrC requirements.
The 3.0 DMG PrC section used to agree with Complete Warrior.

So the consequences were removed in the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition from the DMG. Complete Warrior - one of the earliest 3.5 books - included a verbatim copy of the 3.0 consequences.

If you consider the DMG to be the primary source on PrC mechanics and treat the Complete Warrior blurb as being an editing error in the edition transition, then losing a requirement for a PrC doesn't hurt anything. If you instead treat Complete Warrior as being a clairification, then losing a requirement for a PrC hurts very very badly (and has such funny results as hitting a Blackguard with Ray of Enfeeblement to negate Dark Blessing).
I took the PRC for my example from Complete Arcane(that says exactly the same thing Complete Warrior does) exactly for this reason.

I just find the whole thing absolutely hilarious - the rule that is supposed to make characters much weaker if they used something temporary to qualify for PRC might be the one thing that actually completely fixes their greatest weakness (limitation to spells known), instantly upgrading Tier 2 class to Tier 1.

[Curmudgeon]

I took the PRC for my example from Complete Arcane(that says exactly the same thing Complete Warrior does) exactly for this reason.
Might I suggest you read those two book sections more closely? They say substantially different things, rule-wise.

The "Meeting Class Requirements" rule on page 16 of Complete Warrior (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), and rather different text on page 17 of Complete Arcane (lose "all special abilities"), are only applicable to prestige classes in those two books. You retain class features other than Special abilities with the Complete Arcane rule (which, most importantly for that book of spellcasting PrCs, means you retain Spells per Day/Spells Known abilities because that's a different class table column than Special abilities), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever. With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more, but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those benefits would return when you re-qualify.

[Heliomance]

Might I suggest you read those two book sections more closely? They say substantially different things, rule-wise.

The "Meeting Class Requirements" rule on page 16 of Complete Warrior (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), and rather different text on page 17 of Complete Arcane (lose "all special abilities"), are only applicable to prestige classes in those two books. You retain class features other than Special abilities with the Complete Arcane rule (which, most importantly for that book of spellcasting PrCs, means you retain Spells per Day/Spells Known abilities because that's a different class table column than Special abilities), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever. With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more, but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those benefits would return when you re-qualify.

Interesting - that presumably means that if you're a Drunken Master, and cease to qualify for the class, you still break improvised weapons on a natural 1? Because that's not a benefit.

[Curmudgeon]

Interesting - that presumably means that if you're a Drunken Master, and cease to qualify for the class, you still break improvised weapons on a natural 1? Because that's not a benefit.
If you've got a mean DM, that would likely be the case. :smallsigh:

[Jack_Simth]

I took the PRC for my example from Complete Arcane(that says exactly the same thing Complete Warrior does) exactly for this reason.OK. It doesn't meaningfully change the answer other than substituting "Complete Arcane" in place of "Complete Warrior". If the DMG is the primary source for PrC mechanics, then the loss of a requirement is meaningless by RAW; the blurb in Complete Arcane is an editing error, and holds no rules sway.
If the blurb in Complete Arcane is a legitimate expansion of the PrC mechanics in the DMG, then the blurb in Complete Arcane holds sway, and your special abilities go away when you lose the relevant thing.

I just find the whole thing absolutely hilarious - the rule that is supposed to make characters much weaker if they used something temporary to qualify for PRC might be the one thing that actually completely fixes their greatest weakness (limitation to spells known), instantly upgrading Tier 2 class to Tier 1.Note that even if you go with the Complete Arcane blurb: as Curmudgeon noted: "there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost" so you wouldn't get back your various nifties, and this wouldn't work.

[Chronos]

The Complete Arcane rule definitely exists, but it only applies to prestige classes from that one book.

[Segev]

Even if you did recover all that you lost by regaining the prerequisites (which is what I think you do from my own reading of it, but I acknowledge the validity of the alternative reading), you are not taking new levels. You don't get to re-choose what the benefits are; you just recover what you previously had.

[SinsI]

Logically speaking, you should only lose those class features that directly depend on the Prerequisite in question.
Dodge or Mobility shouldn't affect Spelldancer's spells known or her caster level, but can be important for her spelldance...

This is actually why I really love Test-Based Prerequisites from Complete Arcana, as they completely remove any need for permanent prerequisites.

[Chronos]

That would be logical, but it's not always clear just which prerequisites are associated with which class features, and sometimes PrCs have prerequisites that just make no sense at all.