A tale of a DM who didn't think things through

[lytokk]

So, for anyone interested how my last session turned out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411117-really-unsure-about-plans-for-next-session), I'll give a rundown of the original plan, and then the way the PC's completely messed with my plans.

The plan had been for them to go into the abandoned city on the advice from the earth wierd/pillar that a powerful ally could still be there, kill a couple air demons, stumble into a ritual being conducted by a few demons which turned a young adult green dragon into a willing slave for the demons, fight between the pc's and the dragon ensue, surviving PC's leave with some extra loot.

Firstly, it took about 2 hours for the PC's to even go back above ground. First they go into the newly purified underground goblin city, where they see a goblin running away screaming that he saw a ghost. I had to introduce a new PC who took 2 levels in the ghost template class, and this seemed to be an amusing way to do it. The druid chased down the fleeing goblin, while the rest of the party investigated the ghost. With the druid having caught the goblin, the PCs begin talking to him, which made me utter the phrase "You are not going to convince him to travel along with you. I just got rid of the last two NPCs and I'm not letting you have another"

At this point half the party goes to the surface to check things out, the druid starts giving the goblins instructions on how to set up a sustainable government full of systems of checks and balances, and the other party members are throwing small rocks through the ghost.

The PC's finally go outside, make their way to the city, and after an easy battle with some air demons make their way to the giant mud hut that comprises the dragon's lair. The ghost sticks his head through the wall, sees the ritual going on, but no clue what the subject is. As the PCs are discussing plans, the druid is mentioning the spells she has prepared that day, and when she gets to "soften earth and stone", I let out an "oh ****". I need to work on my poker face. Suffice to say, they drop the hut on the demons, who teleport away, leaving the PCs face to face with a now not mind controlled young adult green dragon, who is slightly more greatful to the PCs than in the mood to murder them. I ended the session with the dragon willing to grant each of the PC's a single request.

tl/dr I intend for a difficult boss battle which the PCs bypass and make an ally with a dragon. I need to work on creating more challenging encounters, or at least ones that can't be so easily bypassed.

[Geddy2112]

I don't think you made an encounter that was easily bypassed or easy, your players were just smart and used the resources they have on hand. Also, this throws an awesome turn in the story-the earth pillar said there could be an ally there, and now the PC's have saved the dragon that might have died! And what about the demons who lived and don't get control over said dragon? Sure, things did not go as you planned but the story advanced in a fun and interesting way. Just because the encounter was not a grind and epic battle does not make it any less interesting-if everybody had fun, then you did your job well. You let the new player shine, and the druid probably feels pretty awesome since they just negated most of the encounter. Not to mention whatever face or diplomat your party has to walk up to a dragon and explain your case to get a reward.



The plan had been for them to go into the abandoned city on the advice from the earth wierd/pillar that a powerful ally could still be there, kill a couple air demons, stumble into a ritual being conducted by a few demons which turned a young adult green dragon into a willing slave for the demons, fight between the pc's and the dragon ensue, surviving PC's leave with some extra loot.

tl/dr I intend for a difficult boss battle which the PCs bypass and make an ally with a dragon. I need to work on creating more challenging encounters, or at least ones that can't be so easily bypassed.

First, your plan required a LOT of things to go "just as planned" and with that many forks it is inevitable that something is going to happen. Be it the PC who fights the random NPC, or the PC who just wants to drink at the bar. It could also have been a sneak past the air demons, banish/dominate other demons/diplomacy in other ways. What if half the PC's died fighting the air demons(unlikely but not impossible)? The more you plan for things to happen, particularly in order, the more likely your PC's are going to find your plan and tear it to shreds. I for one excel in talking down boss fights and my dice seem to know when I need a nat 20 to thwart an otherwise long talking BBEG.

Second, if you want to challenge your party you need to know everything they are capable of, and at least a dozen different ways to thwart that or make it challenging. A druid is a divine caster, so they have access to every spell of the spell levels they can cast. You need to know all of these spells, particularly ones that can reshape reality and how they can be used. Sometimes you should plan to thwart them, but also be ready to reward a player for casting creatively. You also have a ghost in the party(I personally think this was not something you should allow), and being incorporeal is going to provide a lot of advantages, like being able to bypass physical barriers and immunity to a lot of things that would hurt the rest of the party. You have to take into account everything the PC's have at their disposal and the synergy in the party.

[lytokk]

part of the embarassing thing is the druid is my wife and she routinely asks me what spells to prepare. I didn't even think of the buildings being mudhuts until they players got to the city and asked what the buildings were made out of. Just thought, "oh, goblins, where druidic traditions started, mudhuts. Sounds good, little domed mudhuts"

I wouldn't say I overplanned, just mapped out a few encounters and a percieved method of execution. I hadn't intended on them fighting the bigger demons performing the ritual yet, but now its coming to the point where they're going to start going after the PCs with more teeth.

[Ferronach]

I know from your viewpoint this is a really crappy thing to have happen but I find that this is one of the best things about playing the game. As the DM you can never truly know what the party is going to do and how. It adds an element of unknown for you as the DM.

I cannot count the number of times that my players (or myself as a player in someone else's game) have done something completely unexpected and not planned for.

If you are dead set on having this encounter, have the dragon seek the party out in a few days and say that he is concerned for his fried/family memebr/lover etc. AKA another dragon. He has lost contact with said dragon and fears that the cult/demons have tried their ritual again with a different dragon.

This time they have chosen a "better" location and have posted sentries and guards etc.
A slightly tougher version of your planned scenario but plausible and still beatable.

[lytokk]

Honestly, if I thought it was really crappy I wouldn't have let them do it, or at least made the dragon more hostile than it had been. I like it when the PC's do things differently. I've been rewarding it the entire time this campaign has been going on. I just want to actually throw a combat challenge at these guys that they aren't going to bypass this easily.

Just got a text from the ghost player, can a ghost ride a dragon? I just mean physically.

[FocusWolf413]

I ran the Carrion Hill module, but my players are more insane than I predicted. Instead of killing people, they just bludgeoned them and tossed them in an enveloping pit. They charmed a chaos beast, which is in a blocked off part of the pit. They decided to set up a prostitution ring/slave trade AND sell chaos beasts to evil kingdoms that want WMDs.

[Deadline]

Just got a text from the ghost player, can a ghost ride a dragon? I just mean physically.

It could possess someone who could. Like maybe their little goblin. :smallwink:

[Lorddenorstrus]

At least you let them have their surprisingly easy win. Lol I've had some DMs insist it was supposed to be a hard fight so they fiat and say no to what ever would've simplified it. I most recently the choice of Fiating my character out of existence or neerfing Mind Sight to 30 ft instead of my telepathy's 100 ft because. "How is my melee assassin who doesn't know about your powers supposed to kill the king while you're talking to him then have you guys be blamed for it." Introducing hard core rail road tracks.

[icefractal]

Just got a text from the ghost player, can a ghost ride a dragon? I just mean physically.With a Ghost Touch saddle they could. Not sure if there are rules for non-weapon Ghost Touch items - maybe in Ghostwalk? But personally I'd price it at 1300 gp, based on a masterwork tool being 1/6th of a masterwork weapon in cost.

[lytokk]

There's not really a reason to not let PCs have their easy win. They played the encounter right, and won with a single spell. The only thing that has me irked is I'd like for them to like, bleed once while trying to save the world.

session before this one, the party tricked the earth wierd (who was being controlled through a magical disease) to drink a potion of remove disease which has been the go-to way to cure people. What was supposed to be an encounter of them fighting off a level 5 sorc imp and a bunch of earth elementals to get to the wierd ended because of an excellent disguise check to the changeling druid on top of her changeling abilities. I just want them to get into an actual fight, is that so much to ask?

[Lorddenorstrus]

There's not really a reason to not let PCs have their easy win. They played the encounter right, and won with a single spell. The only thing that has me irked is I'd like for them to like, bleed once while trying to save the world.

session before this one, the party tricked the earth wierd (who was being controlled through a magical disease) to drink a potion of remove disease which has been the go-to way to cure people. What was supposed to be an encounter of them fighting off a level 5 sorc imp and a bunch of earth elementals to get to the wierd ended because of an excellent disguise check to the changeling druid on top of her changeling abilities. I just want them to get into an actual fight, is that so much to ask?

Then make it impossible to not fight O.o? Have them ambushed and literally force a fight on someone elses terms where they are heavily disadvantaged.

[Ferronach]

Just got a text from the ghost player, can a ghost ride a dragon? I just mean physically.

Oh My! too funny. Especially the "I just mean physically" Part and the fact that he felt the need to include that....


Then make it impossible to not fight O.o? Have them ambushed and literally force a fight on someone elses terms where they are heavily disadvantaged.

That is a little bit of railroading but not necessarily a bad thing under the given circumstances.

[Lorddenorstrus]

I don't see how being ambushed by beings or people you've previously pissed off is rail roading in the slightest. And if anything those beings or people have lost easily every time because the PCs were prepared. A good ambush on the enemies terms at their advantage sounds logical. The PCs aren't fighting 5 int idiots.

[Ferronach]

I don't see how being ambushed by beings or people you've previously pissed off is rail roading in the slightest. And if anything those beings or people have lost easily every time because the PCs were prepared. A good ambush on the enemies terms at their advantage sounds logical. The PCs aren't fighting 5 int idiots.

Very true but The party could always find a way out. They also seem to have a knack for diplomacy shenanigans so forcing them to fight could still prove dificult.

[Bronk]

Just got a text from the ghost player, can a ghost ride a dragon? I just mean physically.

Assuming Ghostwalk rules:

He can ride it if he has a 'ring of manifesting', allowing him to be permanently solid on the Prime Material, or if the dragon came to the Ethereal.

He could, with the Malevolence (ghost) feat, possess someone that could ride the dragon, or possess the dragon itself.

He could also, with the Ghost Ride (ghost) feat, just hang out in the dragon.

[Ferronach]

Assuming Ghostwalk rules:

He can ride it if he has a 'ring of manifesting', allowing him to be permanently solid on the Prime Material, or if the dragon came to the Ethereal.

He could, with the Malevolence (ghost) feat, possess someone that could ride the dragon, or possess the dragon itself.

He could also, with the Ghost Ride (ghost) feat, just hang out in the dragon.

Oh dear! there goes my "gutterball mind"!
Option C would be a hilarious response to his clarification of his question hahaha!

[General Sajaru]

Just because they can talk their way out of a lot of things doesn't mean all situations are that way, or able to be bypassed by some other clever method. And no, that's not rail-roading; it's just the way some things are. After all, when you're trying to sneak past a dozen ghasts, while throwing them a corpse or some such be clever, it doesn't mean it'll work.

[jiriku]

So, for anyone interested how my last session turned out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411117-really-unsure-about-plans-for-next-session), I'll give a rundown of the original plan, and then the way the PC's completely messed with my plans.

tl/dr I intend for a difficult boss battle which the PCs bypass and make an ally with a dragon. I need to work on creating more challenging encounters, or at least ones that can't be so easily bypassed.


The only thing that has me irked is I'd like for them to like, bleed once while trying to save the world. I just want them to get into an actual fight, is that so much to ask?

What a great game session! It sounds like your group has a natural flair for engaging with the game world and coming up with creative solutions to problems. You are a lucky DM to have such a clever group. :smallsmile:

I would suggest a couple of points for you to thoughtfully consider:
If your players prefer to solve problems without fighting, recruit NPC allies, and worldbuild, that's actually a lot less work for you than building combat encounters. Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
No plan survives contact with the PCs. Not ever. No, not even then. Given that truth, why do you plan what the PCs "should" do? Why not just plan what the NPCs will do, since that's all you control anyhow?
To be blunt, it seems like your PCs don't bleed because your monsters are either weak or cowardly. Your air elementals were crushed without effort. Your demons fled the moment they were attacked. Why not build stronger, more aggressive foes who will actively seek to do battle with the PCs?

[VisitingDaGulag]

Wait, so your problems are that A) your players engage with the game world lots, B) have lots of interest in your story and NPCs and C) don't ignorantly break down the door and try to murder everything?

You have the best players ever. They can't be real

[lytokk]

I hadn't intended them to actually do battle with the demons doing the ritual, just the dragon. The demons didn't even really know anyone was on their tail until just a little while ago, and now they know that the people pursuing them are halfway competent, so the next encounter is going to be a little more difficult.

The reason I sent some lower power enemies at them is that we had a new player joining us, who hasn't played in years. I wanted a few simple encounters to re-acquaint him with combat rules before I threw in something life or death. Also, these last two sessions have been the ones since I auditted all of the characters and made some adjustments to the treasure distribution. A few of them had practically nothing, just a +1 short sword on a level 7 character. The problem I have is that I have no clue what the actual combat potential of the group is anymore, and I'm softballing encounters just to get an estimate. Its always easier to make an encounter harder as opposed to easier.

I assure you, these players are real, and have taken to the philosophy of us vs the DM. I got tired of having every encounter be an ambush on the PCs, its pretty much the only way to counteract their planning. Though the next encounter will be an ambush, thinking a mind controlled umber hulk digging a hole beneath them, and when the dust settles a nice battle with a Hezrou, and 35% chance of 4d10 dretches. That should liven things up. Maybe an advanced umber hulk. I don't think there's a way for them to talk their way out of this one.

[Ferronach]

I don't think there's a way for them to talk their way out of this one.

Hahahaha they want to take on the DM eh? Their fault for the pain about to ensue!

[Nibbens]

So, for anyone interested how my last session turned out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411117-really-unsure-about-plans-for-next-session), I'll give a rundown of the original plan, and then the way the PC's completely messed with my plans.

The plan had been for them to go into the abandoned city on the advice from the earth wierd/pillar that a powerful ally could still be there, kill a couple air demons, stumble into a ritual being conducted by a few demons which turned a young adult green dragon into a willing slave for the demons, fight between the pc's and the dragon ensue, surviving PC's leave with some extra loot.

Firstly, it took about 2 hours for the PC's to even go back above ground. First they go into the newly purified underground goblin city, where they see a goblin running away screaming that he saw a ghost. I had to introduce a new PC who took 2 levels in the ghost template class, and this seemed to be an amusing way to do it. The druid chased down the fleeing goblin, while the rest of the party investigated the ghost. With the druid having caught the goblin, the PCs begin talking to him, which made me utter the phrase "You are not going to convince him to travel along with you. I just got rid of the last two NPCs and I'm not letting you have another"

At this point half the party goes to the surface to check things out, the druid starts giving the goblins instructions on how to set up a sustainable government full of systems of checks and balances, and the other party members are throwing small rocks through the ghost.

The PC's finally go outside, make their way to the city, and after an easy battle with some air demons make their way to the giant mud hut that comprises the dragon's lair. The ghost sticks his head through the wall, sees the ritual going on, but no clue what the subject is. As the PCs are discussing plans, the druid is mentioning the spells she has prepared that day, and when she gets to "soften earth and stone", I let out an "oh ****". I need to work on my poker face. Suffice to say, they drop the hut on the demons, who teleport away, leaving the PCs face to face with a now not mind controlled young adult green dragon, who is slightly more greatful to the PCs than in the mood to murder them. I ended the session with the dragon willing to grant each of the PC's a single request.

tl/dr I intend for a difficult boss battle which the PCs bypass and make an ally with a dragon. I need to work on creating more challenging encounters, or at least ones that can't be so easily bypassed.

LOL. They beat the encounter - for today. There's no reason the demons can't come back to get those pesky PCs who ruined their ritual. etc etc.

Also, the "granted requests" to the PCs can be redacted if you're really upset that they're going to get too-powerful-stuff. Replace it with this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracelet-of-friends) (Yes, it's a PF item - but there's no reason something couldn't be worked for 3ed.) Sure, they miss out on their requests - but gain the ability to summon a ginormous dragon whenever they want, but only once.

[lytokk]

Technically, he never said that he'd grant 1 request per person, the session ended on the phrase "How can I help?" Now, becoming a glorified ferry for them is out of the question, the ghosts player and I were just wondering if it was even possible. I figured it would come down to a single request each. Maybe a look through his treasure horde just to see if anything will definitely help them in their quest, and the opportunity to trade for it. Maybe an answer to a question, so long as he can answer it.

I know that this was a single battle in the grand scheme of a campaign, and there's going to be many, many more opportunities to get at the party, but we seem to be only playing once every month if lucky. So its going to be a while before I/the demons can get some vengence.