A. Rogue/V. Paladin

[AmbientRaven]

Hi Folks,

In a game and I need to make a level 6 character with 7 Str
27 point buy besides.

I am considering a vengeance paladin 3 Assassin 3.

Am I correct in understanding an attack round may look like (with rapier and +3dex)
Advantage: 1D8+3+2D6+2D8, if opponent surprised it becomes 2D8+4D6+4D8?

Or am I missing something.

Would this be viable? Possibly working up paladin for paladin 5, then going the rest as rogue.
Would most likely take Sentinel at some point in this as well as the barbarian doesn't plan to

[Mandragola]

Unfortunately multiclassing as a paladin requires 13 strength.

You're correct on the surprise damage I think. You do double all dice on a crit. Paladin/Assassin does seem pretty scary.

[AmbientRaven]

I could start as Paladin 1, then go rogue. not as good Stat proficiency or starting skills, but can pick a few back up

[ChubbyRain]

I could start as Paladin 1, then go rogue. not as good Stat proficiency or starting skills, but can pick a few back up

Still need 13 str.

[AmbientRaven]

Still need 13 str.

Why is this? Starting as a paladin has no stat requirement

1: Paladin
2: Rogue
3: Paladin
4: paladin
5: Rogue
6: Rogue

Should work fine under multi-class rules

[SharkForce]

Why is this? Starting as a paladin has no stat requirement

1: Paladin
2: Rogue
3: Paladin
4: paladin
5: Rogue
6: Rogue

Should work fine under multi-class rules

to multiclass, you must meet *both* class's requirements (or, if more than two, all of them).

[AmbientRaven]

to multiclass, you must meet *both* class's requirements (or, if more than two, all of them).

Ah i missed that, but the DM has allowed the combo with 7 Str as a Dex based class.
So ignoring the pre-requisites, will the classes blend well?

[SharkForce]

Ah i missed that, but the DM has allowed the combo with 7 Str as a Dex based class.
So ignoring the pre-requisites, will the classes blend well?

reasonably well, yes.

[MadBear]

Ah i missed that, but the DM has allowed the combo with 7 Str as a Dex based class.
So ignoring the pre-requisites, will the classes blend well?

Yes it will blend ok, but multiclassing at such a low level will put you behind.

Paladins want spell slots, and Rogues want sneak attack. By multiclassing 3/3, you'll find that you lag behind on both (although you'll have really strong burst potential).

You'd be better off going paladin 5-6 first (for extra attack at least) and then going rogue, before hopping off back into paladin.

For attacking, I'd recommend using hunters mark instead of smite for better sustained damage.

[AmbientRaven]

The idea behind the character is a Religious Assassin basically.

Think sort of like the faceless men Arya is trained by from GoT

[Flickerdart]

The idea behind the character is a Religious Assassin basically.

Think sort of like the faceless men Arya is trained by from GoT
Why can't you just have a regular Assassin Rogue and then just mumble a bunch of stuff about divine judgment while you gank people?

[ChubbyRain]

The idea behind the character is a Religious Assassin basically.

Think sort of like the faceless men Arya is trained by from GoT

Why not just take the Acolyte background on the rogue? This seems like the best way to do this.

Also, perhaps Rogue/Trickster Cleric? I'm also fond of Rogue/Knowledge Cleric with Criminal/Spy background.

Actually, mechanically speaking, Acolyte Shadow Monk 6 would give you the religious assassin feel and you could even do the disappearing/teleportation stuff.

[Person_Man]

It's viable, but its not necessarily an optimal combination. Paladins are MAD, and thus suffer when you determine your ability scores with a point buy. Also, Paladins and Rogues both get some of their best class abilities at levels 5-7 (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Extra Attack, Auras). In my opinion, multi-classing for slightly more burst damage isn't really worth giving those up.

[Mr.Moron]

Why can't you just have a regular Assassin Rogue and then just mumble a bunch of stuff about divine judgment while you gank people?

I don't mean to speak for anyone here but this type of solution is generally unsatisfying because you want your mumbling about divine judgement to do something. Something that feels mechanically distinct from if you weren't doing the mumbling.

[Person_Man]

I don't mean to speak for anyone here but this type of solution is generally unsatisfying because you want your mumbling about divine judgement to do something. Something that feels mechanically distinct from if you weren't doing the mumbling.

Jules Winnfield (aka, Samual L. Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction) disagrees.;)

[Easy_Lee]

I agree with the straight paladin, religious rogue, or religious monk options. You could quite easily play a shadow monk or rogue to, effectively, achieve a more focused version of the same thing. A rogue or monk who has taken a vow, or may even be under a geas, might be more fun to play.

While it's fun to talk about how great a full round of smite crits would be, consider that such DPR encourages your DM to find ways to gimp your DPR. If he manages to do so, you're left with a character who has fewer rogue tricks and fewer paladin spells and features. The great thing about playing a pure is that you're very good at something, and can always add to your team's efforts.

[Spacehamster]

Arcane trickster instead of assassin would give you alot more spell slots for smiting at the cost of the auto crit. 6 veng PAL / 14 arcane trickster would give spell slots as a lvl 7 full caster and lvl 2pally spells and lvl 3 arcane spells. :)

[MadBear]

OP, you may have heard this before, but one thing to keep in mind, is that your class does not necessarily equal your profession.

The labels we give classes are just useful constructs that outline a themed set of abilities. If you want to play a religious assassin, you could do so being a straight Paladin, or a straight rogue, or you could even do so with almost any class. Just because your character's class doesn't have the title assassin next to it doesn't mean he isn't an assassin. It'd be like arguing "well you're not good at fighting in melee, because you're a barbarian, not a fighter".

With that said, going 3 in A Rogue/ 3 V Paladin would work if it's what you want. You'll be gimping yourself for no real benefit, but it'll be fine in the long term.

[Ardantis]

Actually, Acolyte background with Ranger (hunter or bm) gives the grizzled religious bloodhound vibe.

[CNagy]

Frankly, if you're only thinking of going Paladin5, I would personally just prefer to go Fighter (Battle Master) instead. You reduce your stat reliance to Dex primary and Con secondary. You trade your 6 spells slots per long rest for 4d8 (+effects) per short rest, but you also get Action Surge which in the right conditions will give you an veritable assassination frenzy once per short rest. Take Fighter to 5 (4 attacks in a surge!), then 6 (maxed Dex!), then Rogue 4 (...whatever you want!) and just be your bad executioner of the church self.

If you do go Paladin, though, I'd say carry it to level 6--with a good Cha modifier, Aura of Protection is a major ability.

[ChubbyRain]

Frankly, if you're only thinking of going Paladin5, I would personally just prefer to go Fighter (Battle Master) instead. You reduce your stat reliance to Dex primary and Con secondary. You trade your 6 spells slots per long rest for 4d8 (+effects) per short rest, but you also get Action Surge which in the right conditions will give you an veritable assassination frenzy once per short rest. Take Fighter to 5 (4 attacks in a surge!), then 6 (maxed Dex!), then Rogue 4 (...whatever you want!) and just be your bad executioner of the church self.

If you do go Paladin, though, I'd say carry it to level 6--with a good Cha modifier, Aura of Protection is a major ability.


The problem with battle master is that their effect ts are not only lackluster but do not really stack up against anything other than cantrips.

Paladins can dump Dex just as easy as Fighters. Having a -1 to Dex saves is nothing when you have HP and that -1 initiative modifier isn't all that bad for either class.

The paladin can at least mix up their damage type and doesn't lose its luster after 5 levels.

[CNagy]

The problem with battle master is that their effect ts are not only lackluster but do not really stack up against anything other than cantrips.

Paladins can dump Dex just as easy as Fighters. Having a -1 to Dex saves is nothing when you have HP and that -1 initiative modifier isn't all that bad for either class.

The paladin can at least mix up their damage type and doesn't lose its luster after 5 levels.

Except no one is dumping Dex. The OP's DM seems to be allowing a Dex-based Paladin multiclass. And yeah, a -1 initiative modifier kinda sucks for an Assassin, who requires going before other people in the surprise round in order to assassinate them.

As for the Battle Master being lackluster? Not seeing it. During the aforementioned assassinations, the primary use of the Battle Master's maneuvers is to add that 1d8 to damage that then gets doubled thanks to automatic critical hits. Menacing attack tacks on a Wis save frighten effect (disadvantage on skill checks and attacks). Pushing attack's 15 feet push can send targets out windows/over ledges/etc. Disarming attack is awesome depending on how your DM rules free object interaction; if you can scoop up the weapon with a free hand, it's wonderful, while disarming a shield makes the opponent even easier to hit and requires them to burn an action if they want to re-equip it. Outside of assassinations, you've got Riposte--aka, your possible second Sneak Attack for the round.

With superiority dice refreshing on short rests, and the presumed 2-3 Short Rests per Long Rest, you spread damage across more targets with fewer overkills than the Paladin's smiting. The Fighter still has a nova option via Action Surge, which also refreshes on a short rest.

[ChubbyRain]

Except no one is dumping Dex. The OP's DM seems to be allowing a Dex-based Paladin multiclass. And yeah, a -1 initiative modifier kinda sucks for an Assassin, who requires going before other people in the surprise round in order to assassinate them.

As for the Battle Master being lackluster? Not seeing it. During the aforementioned assassinations, the primary use of the Battle Master's maneuvers is to add that 1d8 to damage that then gets doubled thanks to automatic critical hits. Menacing attack tacks on a Wis save frighten effect (disadvantage on skill checks and attacks). Pushing attack's 15 feet push can send targets out windows/over ledges/etc. Disarming attack is awesome depending on how your DM rules free object interaction; if you can scoop up the weapon with a free hand, it's wonderful, while disarming a shield makes the opponent even easier to hit and requires them to burn an action if they want to re-equip it. Outside of assassinations, you've got Riposte--aka, your possible second Sneak Attack for the round.

With superiority dice refreshing on short rests, and the presumed 2-3 Short Rests per Long Rest, you spread damage across more targets with fewer overkills than the Paladin's smiting. The Fighter still has a nova option via Action Surge, which also refreshes on a short rest.

The point was that you can make a fighter or paladin with essentially the same stat array, not that they would specifically be dropping Dex. But if you used Alert... And specifically was getting the drop on enemies then a -1 modifier wouldn't matter.

That d8 of damage sure is nice, but that's what I'm talking about. The build can already deal damage so having MOAR damage won't really help. Why? Because doing 20 points of damage and 100 points of damage is the same thing when the creature has 1-20 HP. Enemies die at 0 HP after all. Doing the average damage appropriate for your level (or a little less or more) is fine. Not only will DMs be less likely to throw harder or more HP creatures at you, but you can allocate your resources to other areas and not be a one trick pony.

Smites allow you to mix it up with more effects than what the BM gives you. The one really good BM maneuver is the Menecing Strike. All others are quite lackluster. The paladin has Command as a spell that is a lot more versatile than that maneuver (the paladin gets it sooner too). Hell Wrathful Smite is a better spell than the BM menacing strike.

Now if you are going to have 4 short rests per adventuring day then fine, the BM refreshes their abilities more often and wins that. However as I've seen and heard that rarely happens. 1 sometimes and maybe 2 short rests a day is about what happens due to the time it takes for a short rest. This ends of making the BM work more closely to a Per Long Rest type than a Short Rest type.

Plus once you get past level 6 or 7 that fighter drops off the map. They don't get anything new and you end up playing levels 1-8 again while everyone else plays levels 8-20.

It also helps that the game is balanced around the idea that casters have X spells to use per battle per day. Also, outside of their special abilities that refresh, the paladin class features are just on another level entirely.

[CNagy]

Command? Wrathful Smite? So you're pumping Charisma to give a decent Save DC? Sounds a bit different than the stat array for a Dex-based Fighter/Rogue. And it (Command) costs an action, whereas most maneuvers are simply tacked onto normal attacks.

It feels like you haven't actually considered the circumstances. OP talked about taking starting as a 3/3 Paladin/Rogue, taking Paladin to 5, and then going the rest Rogue. So no, there isn't really any falling off--the Rogue has plenty of good abilities all the way up to 14th or 15th.

And I don't know where you are coming up with 4 short rests. I said 2-3 based on experience and what the book assumes you will get. Two short rests (i.e. 12 total superiority dice an adventuring day) does not make the Battle Master more like a "per long rest type."

And more damage is the point. It's the reason to put Assassin and Paladin together in the first place--the Smite class ability is giving 4d8 and 6d8 (1st and 2nd level spell slots) per critical during a surprise round. My point was that rather than possibly overkill a few guys once per day (6 long rest spell slots,) he might want to murder more people more often (4d8 dice refreshing on short rests) and really murder a few guys or groups (action surge each short rest.)

[ChubbyRain]

Command? Wrathful Smite? So you're pumping Charisma to give a decent Save DC? Sounds a bit different than the stat array for a Dex-based Fighter/Rogue. And it (Command) costs an action, whereas most maneuvers are simply tacked onto normal attacks.

It feels like you haven't actually considered the circumstances. OP talked about taking starting as a 3/3 Paladin/Rogue, taking Paladin to 5, and then going the rest Rogue. So no, there isn't really any falling off--the Rogue has plenty of good abilities all the way up to 14th or 15th.

And I don't know where you are coming up with 4 short rests. I said 2-3 based on experience and what the book assumes you will get. Two short rests (i.e. 12 total superiority dice an adventuring day) does not make the Battle Master more like a "per long rest type."

And more damage is the point. It's the reason to put Assassin and Paladin together in the first place--the Smite class ability is giving 4d8 and 6d8 (1st and 2nd level spell slots) per critical during a surprise round. My point was that rather than possibly overkill a few guys once per day (6 long rest spell slots,) he might want to murder more people more often (4d8 dice refreshing on short rests) and really murder a few guys or groups (action surge each short rest.)

In actual game play a save DC of 12 versus 13 sees very little difference in actual save versus not saved. Seriously. People freak out over the math of 5%. However the paladin can do things that the fighter has 0% chance to ever do while bing able to do consistent damage that keeps up with the fighter.

[AmbientRaven]

Wow did not expect the amount of feedback this thread has recieved!

To address a few things

Monk: I had considered a monk, but, another player will be playing a monk and having a duplicate class int he party seems counter productive.

Fighter: Never Considered

Acolyte Background: I had considered this, but mechanically I want the religious aspect to do something in game, mechanically. Trickster cleric was an option, but it doesn't suit the feel of an assassin. I'd be more inclined to take that with a thief or arcane trickster.

This was more a question about will this be usable and not completely suck, as opposed to will this be min-maxed.

Turns out the parties healer had to drop so instead I will be rolling up a cleric any how!

[SharkForce]

monk is not really a class where you suffer from diminishing returns much. truthfully, i'm not sold on that being the case for most classes (to some extent for rogue or bard, maybe, where you don't really need several people with certain skills... but even then, there's far more of the class that doesn't overlap than there is that does).

[ChubbyRain]

Wow did not expect the amount of feedback this thread has recieved!

To address a few things

Monk: I had considered a monk, but, another player will be playing a monk and having a duplicate class int he party seems counter productive.

Fighter: Never Considered

Acolyte Background: I had considered this, but mechanically I want the religious aspect to do something in game, mechanically. Trickster cleric was an option, but it doesn't suit the feel of an assassin. I'd be more inclined to take that with a thief or arcane trickster.

This was more a question about will this be usable and not completely suck, as opposed to will this be min-maxed.

Turns out the parties healer had to drop so instead I will be rolling up a cleric any how!

I don't have the link but there is a cleric guide on these forums you should look into.

Do note you don't really need a dedicated healer in 5e.