House Rules on Hit Points/Healing [Please Evaluate & Critique Honestly]

[Ziegander]

Long & Short Rests
A long rest must be at least 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep (or elf trance, or other similar activity) and may not be performed more than once per day. A long rest no longer restores all lost hit points, but rather only half a character's maximum hit point total. It does however replenish all expended Hit Dice and removes levels of exhaustion equal to half your total levels of exhaustion (to a minimum of one). If more than 24 hours have passed since the end of a character's last long rest, that character suffers one level of exhaustion.

A short rest must be at least 10 minutes long but no longer than 6 hours, and may not performed more than three times per day. During a short rest, as long as some food or drink is consumed by a player character, that character may expend one or more of its Hit Dice to restore hit points. Player characters can perform various actions during a short rest, so long as they do nothing that would involve combat, any Strength or Constitution checks, or any sort of saving throws.

Exhaustion
Characters who don't eat or drink suffer the effects of exhaustion. Exhaustion caused by lack of food or water cannot be removed except by eating or drinking a full day's required amount, but is immediately removed upon doing so.

A character needs two pounds of food per day to function normally, though it can get by by subsisting on half rations. Any character that goes without food for more than 12 hours must, succeed at a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion. A character that eats less than two pounds, but no less than one pound, of food in a day makes these saving throws with disadvantage. A character with access to even less food automatically fails.

A character needs 8 cups of water per day, or one gallon if the day was particularly hot, though it may get by with at least half that amount. Any character that goes without water for more than 12 hours, must succeed at a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion. A character that drinks less than the necessarily amount of water in a day, but no less than half, makes these saving throws with disadvantage. A character with access to even less water automatically fails.

Healing Spells
Spare the Dying's effect has the addendum, "If you use this cantrip to stabilize a dying creature that is not unconscious that creature regains 1 hit point."

Cure Wounds is amended such that its range becomes 15ft, and its effect now reads, "A creature you choose within range regains a number of hit points equal to 1d12 + your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st. When you cast it using a spell slot of 3rd level, and for every two slot levels higher than 3rd, you may choose an additional creature within range."

Goodberry is amended such that the duration is changed to 8 hours and its effect now reads, "1d6+4 berries no larger than grapes grow from the sprig of mistletoe in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. As long as the spell's duration has not expired, eating one of these berries restores 1d3 hit points and provides energy equivalent to a hardy meal. Once the spell's duration has expired, the berries lose their magical properties and begin to spoil rapidly." It no longer requires an action to eat a Goodberry. This line has been omitted to allow open interpretation over what sort of action (if any) it should take to to consume a berry that is readily held in one's hand, but also to better accommodate and simulate situations where PCs have stowed Goodberries away in their packs and wish to retrieve them during encounters.

Healing Word is amended such that its range becomes 30ft and its effect now reads, "A creature of your choice that you can see within range regains hit points equal to 1d6 + your spellcasting ability modifier. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the healing increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st. When you cast it using a spell slot of 3rd level, and for every two slot levels higher than 3rd, you may choose an additional creature within range."

Aid is amended such that its effect now reads, "Each target acts on its next turn as though you used the Help action to assist it for up to one action it takes on its turn, regains 5 hit points, and it's hit point maximum increases by 5 for the spell's duration. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you may target one additional creature in range and the healing and increase to each creature's hit points maximum both improve by an additional 5 points for every slot level higher than 2nd."

Prayer of Healing is amended in many ways. Change its casting time to one action and its range to 60ft. Its effect now reads, "Choose any creatures you can see within range. Each regains hit points equal to 2d8. This spell has no effect on constructs and does not heal undead, but, rather, deals such creatures an equal amount of radiant damage. An undead creature damaged in this way may make a Charisma saving throw and takes half damage on a successful save. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the range increases by 30ft and the healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 2nd."

Mass Healing Word is removed from all spell lists.

Mass Cure Wounds is removed from all spell lists.

Heal is amended so that the targeted creature regains all hit points. At higher levels now reads, "When you cast this spell using a 9th level spell slot, you may choose up to three creatures you can see within range. Each of those creatures regains all hit points, is cured of all diseases, and is no longer blind or deaf."

Regenerate is amended in many ways. Change its casting time to one action and its components to V, S. Its effect now reads, "The target regains hit points equal to half its maximum hit point total. For the duration of the spell, the target regains a number of hit points at the start of each of its turns equal to your spellcasting modifier." The rest of the text, referring to severed body members, remains intact and in effect.

Mass Heal is removed from all spell lists.

Life at 0 Hit Points
When a character is reduced to 0 hit points, it suffers one level of exhaustion. At the start of that character's turns to follow it makes a Death saving throw, DC 10, adding no ability modifier and no proficiency bonus. A character that succeeds may act normally on its turn, and take a reaction when it is not its turn, but for movement, and for every action, bonus action, or reaction taken, that character's next Death save DC increases by 1.

Upon failing its first Constitution saving throw vs Death, a character falls prone in its space, unconscious. Whenever a character with 0 hit points is hit by an attack, instead of suffering damage it records one failure of a Death save, or two if the attack was a critical hit. After failing three Death saves, a character is dead. After succeeding at three, the dying character becomes stable, and no longer makes Death saves. If the character reaches three successes without having recorded any failures, then it regains 1 hit point.

When a character at 0 hit points would regain hit points for any reason except by reaching three successful Death saves without failing any, the creature makes a special Death save, the result of which doesn't count toward successes or failures regarding dying or stabilizing. If this special save is a success, then the creature regains hit points as normal, but if the save is a failure the creature does not regain any hit points but does strike one of its failed Death saves from the record. When a character at 0 hit points is brought to 1 or more hit points, it becomes stable and no longer makes Death saves.

[Easy_Lee]

That's a ton of changes. I'll address the exhaustion change. Frenzy barbarians gain a huge spike in DPR by using Frenzy. If they know that they can tap into their hit die to remove exhaustion, then they can safely use frenzy much more often. This may make frenzy barbarians too powerful, particularly since barbarians already have some of the best DPR and survival around.

[MadGrady]

At first glance, my opinion is that the buffs you've made to the healing spells, far outweight the removal of reggaining full HP after a long rest. Making cure wounds 1d10 and have range, is really powerful.

For instance - having Cure Wounds at 1st level heal anywhere from 4-14 HP (or more if you are a life cleric) can really negate any damage your monsters deal in the early levels.

My question is this - what is your goal? What are you trying to compensate for or overcome?

Is your world that much more dangerous that it requires these increased heals?

[Ziegander]

At first glance, my opinion is that the buffs you've made to the healing spells, far outweight the removal of reggaining full HP after a long rest. Making cure wounds 1d10 and have range, is really powerful.

For instance - having Cure Wounds at 1st level heal anywhere from 4-14 HP (or more if you are a life cleric) can really negate any damage your monsters deal in the early levels.

My question is this - what is your goal? What are you trying to compensate for or overcome?

Is your world that much more dangerous that it requires these increased heals?

With regards to the buffs to healing spells, I just want to put them more in line with damage dealing spells of the same level. Though I did forget about the Life Cleric option... will think about that.

One of the goals is to encourage short rests more than the base game does and to reduce some of the gaminess (but obviously not all) that results when players go to sleep and are completely fine the next day.

@Easy: I have yet to see a Frenzy Barbarian in play, so I can neither confirm nor deny your concerns, but they are noted.

[MadGrady]

With regards to the buffs to healing spells, I just want to put them more in line with damage dealing spells of the same level. Though I did forget about the Life Cleric option... will think about that.

One of the goals is to encourage short rests more than the base game does and to reduce some of the gaminess (but obviously not all) that results when players go to sleep and are completely fine the next day.

I can definitely understand about the gaminess aspect of things.

If you are keen on bumping up Cure Wounds (and we definitely have an edition that promotes DM fiat on everything :smallbiggrin: ) then I would recommend removing the ranged component from that aspect. Allowing a Bard or Cleric to do that much healing from the back without entering danger really removes some of the tactical problems that DMs can force those support characters into. Healing Word was ranged, but it was definitely a lower amount of HP (in general).

Also I would DEFINITELY remove the change to make the casting time a bonus action. Allowing them to heal and attack in the same round using a cantrip is gonna wreck your encounters.

Again, though, these are my personal thoughts as a DM and are not to be considered RAW lol.

I wish you well in all your gaming endeavors.

[Ziegander]

I can definitely understand about the gaminess aspect of things.

If you are keen on bumping up Cure Wounds (and we definitely have an edition that promotes DM fiat on everything :smallbiggrin: ) then I would recommend removing the ranged component from that aspect. Allowing a Bard or Cleric to do that much healing from the back without entering danger really removes some of the tactical problems that DMs can force those support characters into. Healing Word was ranged, but it was definitely a lower amount of HP (in general).

Also I would DEFINITELY remove the change to make the casting time a bonus action. Allowing them to heal and attack in the same round using a cantrip is gonna wreck your encounters.

Again, though, these are my personal thoughts as a DM and are not to be considered RAW lol.

I wish you well in all your gaming endeavors.

Yep, I'm scaling back now after remembering Life Domain's existence. Double-check in a minute.


That's a ton of changes. I'll address the exhaustion change. Frenzy barbarians gain a huge spike in DPR by using Frenzy. If they know that they can tap into their hit die to remove exhaustion, then they can safely use frenzy much more often. This may make frenzy barbarians too powerful, particularly since barbarians already have some of the best DPR and survival around.

With my added revisions to Food & Drink management, I think I can safely remove the "spend a hit dice to remove exhaustion" clause.

EDIT: Considering adding an addendum to the "Life at 0 Hit Points" rules that causes healing magic/effects to not work normally on a character with 0 hit points, but I'm not sure if a) I should, or b) in what way being at 0 hit points should interfere with healing. My initial thought is requiring a Death save to stick the healing, with a success allowing the healing to work at half-effectiveness, while a failure is no healing as well as a recorded, failed Death save as normal. Is that too harsh?

[Person_Man]

With regards to the buffs to healing spells, I just want to put them more in line with damage dealing spells of the same level. Though I did forget about the Life Cleric option... will think about that.

Healing effects occur automatically, and can be buffed significantly if you invest the right resources in them (Life Domain, Fast Hands, etc).

Damage effects have a chance of failure, and in general its more difficult to improve their success rate.

Also, healing is one tactic among many, its not something you have to memorize and lock daily resources into doing. For example, if Player One is likely to die this round, but Boss Enemy is not likely to die this round, then it makes a lot of sense to heal Player One instead of taking an offensive action against Boss Enemy. On the flip side, if Player One is not likely to die and Mook Enemy is likely to get killed, then yeah, you should kill Mook Enemy instead of wasting your resources on healing. That's not a flaw in the metagame, its by design.



One of the goals is to encourage short rests more than the base game does and to reduce some of the gaminess (but obviously not all) that results when players go to sleep and are completely fine the next day.

Almost every class has some Short Rest resources. So if they're not using Short Rests, they may not understand the importance of them. If there's a Warlock or Monk in the party, believe me, they'll take Short Rests. You can encourage more of them by making Short Rests shorter (5 or 10 or 30 minutes, and not 1 hour), though doing so tends to strongly encourage more frequent use of Short Rest resources.

Honestly, there's nothing you can do to remove the "gaminess" of rests without screwing the overall metagame of the system. If you introduce a more punishing/difficult healing system, then players just rest for multiple days before they continue to adventure. If you limit their ability to do so, they spend more resources on magical healing, and it becomes a "mandatory role" as it was in 1E/2E, which makes the game significantly less fun for at least one player. Using magical healing is only fun of the player wants to be a magical healer. If they're forced to be a magical healer because the rules require somebody to do it, using magical healing becomes a required chore. Its why most modern roleplaying video games that don't have a roguelike/resource management aspect to them auto-heal after every combat. Its not fun to manage a bunch of potions or stimpaks or whatever, so why even have them?

[BRC]

The problem with removing healing from Long Rests and buffing Healing spells is that it makes the game more reliant on magical healing, and makes bookkeeping more complicated.


As per the PHB, a Long Rest is basically a full reset of your character. All abilities come back, your health gets back up to full. As far as bookkeeping is concerned, it's pretty simple.
This change means that, rather than simply restoring your health to full, you are instead encouraged to start spending hit die to heal.

This could significantly slow things down. A player's instinct is going to be to heal themselves up to full whenever possible. If you take a long rest, then roll poorly when spending your hit die to heal, you might find yourself well shy of your maximum HP, especially for Fighters and Barbarians, with large hit die. You could get into a situation where the party just decides to wait around again and get their martial characters up to full health.

It ALSO makes short rests significantly less useful. Rather than using hit dice during short rests to heal up between fights, they're using their hit dice to heal up the previous day's injuries. This means that characters can no longer heal themselves after a rough fight during the day unless they can take two days off, or if they end the day with enough hit die remaining to heal themselves before their long rest. Either way, it cuts down on the number of encounters characters can handle per day.

Of course, you've buffed Healing magic to help with this, but this brings back the idea that somebody in the party needs to play the Healer, who is then obligated to spend their resources keeping the rest of the party on their feet.

Also, as for those long rest rules, 24 hours is too short a timeframe to start breaking out the Exhaustion (You're not clear about if you're measuring from the START or END of the previous long rest). I would go with 36 hours so that there is more wiggle room in the schedule, rather than penalizing characters if they don't keep to a regular bedtime.

[Ziegander]

Either way, it cuts down on the number of encounters characters can handle per day.

In my experience, my players (who are by no means stupid) can never handle anywhere near the number of encounters the DMG guidelines suggest players should encounter in a single day, so I suppose my mileage varies anyway. I usually try to put them through no more than three or four encounters in a single day, but perhaps my encounters are just a little more grueling than the Devs intended. *shrug*


Of course, you've buffed Healing magic to help with this, but this brings back the idea that somebody in the party needs to play the Healer, who is then obligated to spend their resources keeping the rest of the party on their feet.

To be clear, I haven't buffed the healing magic to compensate for the lack of long rest healing, but to put them in line with other spells of the same level.

In any case, would the change to long rests be better handled if a long rest restored hit points equal to half a character's maximum hit point total?


Also, as for those long rest rules, 24 hours is too short a timeframe to start breaking out the Exhaustion (You're not clear about if you're measuring from the START or END of the previous long rest). I would go with 36 hours so that there is more wiggle room in the schedule, rather than penalizing characters if they don't keep to a regular bedtime.

I have edited the OP to specify that after more than 24 hours past the end of a player's last long rest they suffer Exhaustion. It's not about penalizing players, it's about having better simulation which is something my players thrive on.

[BRC]

In my experience, my players (who are by no means stupid) can never handle anywhere near the number of encounters the DMG guidelines suggest players should encounter in a single day, so I suppose my mileage varies anyway. I usually try to put them through no more than three or four encounters in a single day, but perhaps my encounters are just a little more grueling than the Devs intended. *shrug*

The math comes out the same, especially at low levels.
If I'm, lets say, a 3rd level fighter with 16 constitution, I have 29 HP (10 for 1st level, +5 +5 +9 for my con), and three hit die, each healing 1d10+3.

Before the 1st short rest, I take 15 damage. I spend 2 hit die while resting to heal back to full.
Between the 1st and 2nd short rests, I take 10 damage. I spend a hit die, and heal it back.
Then, during our final fight of the day, I eat a few Greataxe swings and take 23 damage.

Then, I long rest, I have my 3 hit die back. The first thing I do is spend all of them to heal that 23 damage.
Now, I've got another full day of encounters ahead of me, but I have no hit die to heal myself.
And here I'm assuming around average rolls. If I had that 23 damage (of my 29 HP) to heal, and I spent my 3 hit die, rolling a 2, a 4, and a 1, then I'm only recovering 7 HP, and that's all I get all day. Now my front-line meleer is basically unplayable for the rest of the day,. Sure, that might not happen frequently, but it will probably happen at least once, which is a problem.

(okay, my math is a little messed up since I'm not counting a Fighter's Second Wind here, but you see my point).

My experience with 5E is that PC's can very quickly take a LOT of damage, so it's important to have your HP topped off whenever possible. Wandering around with low, or even half health, can be a dangerous proposition. Monsters are generally built to deal enough damage that they can threaten a full-health PC, rather than just to soften one up for another monster later that day. How much damage a player can absorb in a single encounter is a very big deal.


To be clear, I haven't buffed the healing magic to compensate for the lack of long rest healing, but to put them in line with other spells of the same level.

In any case, would the change to long rests be better handled if a long rest restored hit points equal to half a character's maximum hit point total?

Whatever your purpose, the effect is the same. Non-healers have a substantially reduced ability to recover hit points, and healers are better able to heal.

Restoring half hit-points would be better. You would still face the same problem (Players spending resources that should get them through a day of grueling encounters to recover from the previous day's grueling encounters), but substantially less so.



I have edited the OP to specify that after more than 24 hours past the end of a player's last long rest they suffer Exhaustion. It's not about penalizing players, it's about having better simulation which is something my players thrive on.

That works. I would still give them a little wiggle room (maybe up to an hour if their adrenaline is pumping) rather than slap them with the Exhaustion level as soon as the timer ticks down.

[Ziegander]

Non-healers have a substantially reduced ability to recover hit points, and healers are better able to heal.

Restoring half hit-points would be better. You would still face the same problem (Players spending resources that should get them through a day of grueling encounters to recover from the previous day's grueling encounters), but substantially less so.

I think maybe you're forgetting that in the standard rules a long rest only recovers half a character's spent Hit Dice rather than my proposal of all of them, and only ever one level of exhaustion at a time, otherwise I'm not sure how you're getting that my proposed change results in substantially reduced ability to recover hit points.

Regardless, yes, I'm thinking I may allow a long rest to restore half hit points. I'm aiming for a more realistic, harmonious approach to human(oid) fatigue and recovery, so making sure that long and short rests contribute evenly is a goal here. My players simply never seem to short rest, even though I've already allowed 10 minute short rests, it just often doesn't come up. For classes with short rest mechanics this has been a problem, so I'm now at a situation where I want to encourage players to make time for a short rest.


That works. I would still give them a little wiggle room (maybe up to an hour if their adrenaline is pumping) rather than slap them with the Exhaustion level as soon as the timer ticks down.

While that would make a little sense, it would be super fiddly to actual deal with in-game.

[BRC]

I think maybe you're forgetting that in the standard rules a long rest only recovers half a character's spent Hit Dice rather than my proposal of all of them, and only ever one level of exhaustion at a time, otherwise I'm not sure how you're getting that my proposed change results in substantially reduced ability to recover hit points.

I was forgetting that.

Still, there is the randomness factor that comes with using Hit Die for recovery rather than a flat amount. It dosn't need to happen frequently to be a problem, but a couple bad rolls at the start of the day can lead to a character being basically useless all day. There are few things less fun than running around at critical HP, trying to not slow the party down until you get enough hit points back that you feel confident about fighting.

Automatically healing to half, plus using hit die, means that they can at least be confident about SOME encounters that day.



Regardless, yes, I'm thinking I may allow a long rest to restore half hit points. I'm aiming for a more realistic, harmonious approach to human(oid) fatigue and recovery, so making sure that long and short rests contribute evenly is a goal here. My players simply never seem to short rest, even though I've already allowed 10 minute short rests, it just often doesn't come up. For classes with short rest mechanics this has been a problem, so I'm now at a situation where I want to encourage players to make time for a short rest.


It sounds like you're players are already encouraged to make time for short rests. If It's been causing problems for classes with short-rest mechanics, then the problem may be your group, either not recognizing that they need regular short rests to restore their abilities, or a few members without short-rest mechanics complaining.


While that would make a little sense, it would be super fiddly to actual deal with in-game.
Less fiddly than writing down the exact time the PC's ended their long rest, then keeping track of exactly how much time is passing in-game so you can smack them with the Exhaustion level at exactly the right moment?

[Ziegander]

Less fiddly than writing down the exact time the PC's ended their long rest, then keeping track of exactly how much time is passing in-game so you can smack them with the Exhaustion level at exactly the right moment?

You keep assuming I want to punish my players with this mechanic for reasons I don't understand. You can't see how tracking 1 hour is more fiddly at the table than tracking 24 hours as a large block of time? Your proposal would require tracking exact times, so that I could say, okay, it's been 24 hours, now your 1 hour, adrenaline-fueled grace period begins, then actually track the hour in-game, okay, now you have a level of exhaustion. Of course that's more fiddly than, okay you've now gone a full day without sleeping, you have a level of exhaustion.

[BRC]

You keep assuming I want to punish my players with this mechanic for reasons I don't understand. You can't see how tracking 1 hour is more fiddly at the table than tracking 24 hours as a large block of time? Your proposal would require tracking exact times, so that I could say, okay, it's been 24 hours, now your 1 hour, adrenaline-fueled grace period begins, then actually track the hour in-game, okay, now you have a level of exhaustion. Of course that's more fiddly than, okay you've now gone a full day without sleeping, you have a level of exhaustion.
But how are you proposing to determine that they've gone "A full day without sleeping"?
Your rules specify 24 hours. In order to use those rules, you need to keep track of exact time so that the DM and the Players know when 24 hours has passed. Otherwise, the rule is basically unenforceable without a lot of retroactive guesswork about how long certain activities took.

Unless you're going to eyeball it and say "Yeah, you guys woke up early the previous morning, and the sun is starting to come up, so you've got maybe a few hours before Exhaustion sets in", which is what I would personally do.
"A full day" is a nice, imprecise term, ideal for what you're going for. "24 hours", which is what your rule says, is very precise. If the PC's woke up at 6 AM the previous day, they have until exactly 6 AM to go to sleep to avoid exhaustion.

My suggestion (Give them another hour afterwards if they're in the middle of something) is LESS punitive, and requires EXACTLY as much bookkeeping as the way you have the rules written.
Unless you have some system by which 24 hours is easy to determine, but 24 hours+ Up to one hour to finish up whatever they're doing requires substantial bookkeeping.

[Ziegander]

But how are you proposing to determine that they've gone "A full day without sleeping"?
Your rules specify 24 hours. In order to use those rules, you need to keep track of exact time so that the DM and the Players know when 24 hours has passed. Otherwise, the rule is basically unenforceable without a lot of retroactive guesswork about how long certain activities took.

Unless you're going to eyeball it and say "Yeah, you guys woke up early the previous morning, and the sun is starting to come up, so you've got maybe a few hours before Exhaustion sets in", which is what I would personally do.
"A full day" is a nice, imprecise term, one that gives you more wiggle room. "24 hours" is more exact, and requires bookkeeping.

Personally, that's just semantics to me. I used the term 24 hours, because that's the sort of term the published books use. The eyeballing scenario is how I'd handle it too, but " a full day," and "24 hours" are exactly the same thing to my mind. Apples to apples, so I don't see any more or less wiggle room in using either term. If it makes you feel better I can change it to "a full day" though.

[BRC]

Personally, that's just semantics to me. I used the term 24 hours, because that's the sort of term the published books use. The eyeballing scenario is how I'd handle it too, but " a full day," and "24 hours" are exactly the same thing to my mind. Apples to apples, so I don't see any more or less wiggle room in using either term. If it makes you feel better I can change it to "a full day" though.
Eh, either works.

I was mostly just responding to the idea that giving them up to an extra hour required a substantial amount of extra bookkeeping.

I'm just trying to avoid a scenario where midway through a scene, everybody suddenly picks up an Exhaustion level as the DM has determined that a "Full Day" has passed. The hour is just more than enough time for them to finish up whatever they're doing and find a place to rest (If that's an option.)

[Ziegander]

I'm just trying to avoid a scenario where midway through a scene, everybody suddenly picks up an Exhaustion level as the DM has determined that a "Full Day" has passed. The hour is just more than enough time for them to finish up whatever they're doing and find a place to rest (If that's an option.)

Yeah, I would never do anything like that. They'd know long beforehand that the characters are getting tired and tracking time down to the minute like that is just excruciatingly pedantic for the players and the DM.

[coredump]

One of the goals is to encourage short rests more than the base game does and to reduce some of the gaminess (but obviously not all) that results when players go to sleep and are completely fine the next day.
.
I don't think you need such large changes.

Try this.
Short rests stay the same. If they are an hour long, you don't really need to put a 3/day limit on them.
Long rest still returns 1/2 of your hitdice.
Long rest, full day of rest, long rest, returns you to full HP.

This stops the 'gaminess' but doesn't mess with everything else.

[Ziegander]

Anyone have any comment on the "Life at 0 Hit Points" section?

[Easy_Lee]

Anyone have any comment on the "Life at 0 Hit Points" section?

Not much life going on at 0 Hit Points, I would think.

[BRC]

It seems pretty easy for a PC to just bring themselves back into the fight by chugging a healing potion.

Although 5e already has a problem with Jack-in-the-box gameplay (and the escalating Exhaustion penalties will help with that), so that may not be a big deal. The main difference is now the character who got hit is spending their next action getting themselves back into the fight, rather than having somebody else throw a healing spell/pour a potion down their throat.

[Pex]

5E was made on purpose to allow full healing on a long rest. It may not be realistic, but that's not the point. It's a game mechanic facilitator, emphasis on game. That's all this is. Unlike previous editions in 5E players do not have as much resources available for healing. Long rest healing is what makes up that difference. I can speak from unfortunate personal experience that players shut down when refused the ability to heal. They will not do anything because they cannot get above 1 hit point. The entire party suffers and characters will die because the party is not at full capacity while the NPC bad guys are.

In addition, you are forcing someone to play the heal-bot cleric. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to play a cleric who's not a heal-bot. However, your forcing it is the problem, cause certainly the bard is not going to do it. Without one PCs will die. I again speak from unfortunate personal experience. The fact that by getting rid of long rest healing you feel the need to buff up healing spells is that flag waving warning sign something is wrong. House rules in general are fine. A house rule is terrible when you need to rewrite the game to accommodate it. You're putting in so much effort and need to write out a booklet for people to remember where as if you just left things alone there wouldn't be any angst.

Long rest healing is not a problem that needs fixing.

[Easy_Lee]

Honestly, I don't personally like the way rests and spending hit die work, particularly tracking, so I suggest:

You may roll hit die equal to your proficiency bonus (one die at level 1) during a short rest to recover that much health. You return to full health after a long rest. If you are poisoned or suffering from a disease, halve all healing during short rests and long rests can only restore you to half health.

It makes the low levels easier and removes the need to carefully manage hit die.

[Tenmujiin]

5E was made on purpose to allow full healing on a long rest. It may not be realistic, but that's not the point. It's a game mechanic facilitator, emphasis on game. That's all this is. Unlike previous editions in 5E players do not have as much resources available for healing. Long rest healing is what makes up that difference. I can speak from unfortunate personal experience that players shut down when refused the ability to heal. They will not do anything because they cannot get above 1 hit point. The entire party suffers and characters will die because the party is not at full capacity while the NPC bad guys are.

In addition, you are forcing someone to play the heal-bot cleric. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting to play a cleric who's not a heal-bot. However, your forcing it is the problem, cause certainly the bard is not going to do it. Without one PCs will die. I again speak from unfortunate personal experience. The fact that by getting rid of long rest healing you feel the need to buff up healing spells is that flag waving warning sign something is wrong. House rules in general are fine. A house rule is terrible when you need to rewrite the game to accommodate it. You're putting in so much effort and need to write out a booklet for people to remember where as if you just left things alone there wouldn't be any angst.

Long rest healing is not a problem that needs fixing.

He has stated that he is trying to reduce the gameiness of healing because his group prefers it to be a bit more simulationist. This isn't so much a house rule as rewriting a part of the system that his group dislikes. He has also stated that the increased power of healing spells is to bring them in line with damage spells so they are actually worth an action to use before PCs are at 0hp. I don't think anyone is arguing that the normal rules aren't fine for most groups.

That being said, my group uses an altered long rest rule that resulted from a missreading of the rules we decided to keep:

At the end of a long rest you regain 1/2 your HD (rounded up). If this would put you over the cap of HD they you automatically spend the excess HD.

The result is that the PCs often need a few days to completely heal but we prefer it like that anyway. Our combats tend to come at 1-3 a day and are often extended and deadly fights, for example we will often have a single encounter extend over multiple fights in a dungeon and its rare that a player doesn't go to death saves (but also rare that they die, the only two deaths we have had were one player spliting from the group and one player being instakilled from full health by a critical inflict wounds

[Ziegander]

Yeah some of my players get really irked when game rules don't make "real world" sense. They hate the crafting rules so much (then again, so do I).

[Pex]

He has stated that he is trying to reduce the gameiness of healing because his group prefers it to be a bit more simulationist. This isn't so much a house rule as rewriting a part of the system that his group dislikes. He has also stated that the increased power of healing spells is to bring them in line with damage spells so they are actually worth an action to use before PCs are at 0hp. I don't think anyone is arguing that the normal rules aren't fine for most groups.

That being said, my group uses an altered long rest rule that resulted from a missreading of the rules we decided to keep:

At the end of a long rest you regain 1/2 your HD (rounded up). If this would put you over the cap of HD they you automatically spend the excess HD.

The result is that the PCs often need a few days to completely heal but we prefer it like that anyway. Our combats tend to come at 1-3 a day and are often extended and deadly fights, for example we will often have a single encounter extend over multiple fights in a dungeon and its rare that a player doesn't go to death saves (but also rare that they die, the only two deaths we have had were one player spliting from the group and one player being instakilled from full health by a critical inflict wounds

My point still stands. Their zeal for realism will be a detriment to the game causing problems that wouldn't exist had they just left things alone. As soon as someone asks "Alright, who's going to play the cleric?" or someone volunteers just for the sake of having a healer, it manifests.

I was asked for my opinion. I gave it. Asking for opinions does not mean automatic approval of the concept even if the opinion is rejected.

[Gritmonger]

Couldn't this be achieved by using the short rest = 1 day, long rest = 1 week? Then they wouldn't always have a recharge every day, and would be more covetous of resources in general, rather than fiddling with the mechanics so directly?

They wouldn't be able to get a lot of it back even overnight, and would have to plan to repair to someplace safe to recuperate properly.

[Safety Sword]

Anyone have any comment on the "Life at 0 Hit Points" section?

Why does the death save get harder to make the higher your level is? Is it just to make the save stay relevant at higher levels?

It seems arbitrary.

[Pex]

Couldn't this be achieved by using the short rest = 1 day, long rest = 1 week? Then they wouldn't always have a recharge every day, and would be more covetous of resources in general, rather than fiddling with the mechanics so directly?

They wouldn't be able to get a lot of it back even overnight, and would have to plan to repair to someplace safe to recuperate properly.

That causes other problems. No one will want to use any of their abilities because it takes "forever" to get back and there's always that fear they'd need the ability later for something more important. Spellcasters aren't casting spells because once they cast them they do nothing but cast cantrips for 5-6 days. Warlocks are just using Eldritch Blast all day because 2 spells and done just won't do. Clerics never use Channel Divinity. Barbarians never rage. Fighters don't use Action Surge or Second Wind. Every use of an ability becomes an agonizing "spongeworthy" crisis.

[Gritmonger]

That causes other problems. No one will want to use any of their abilities because it takes "forever" to get back and there's always that fear they'd need the ability later for something more important. Spellcasters aren't casting spells because once they cast them they do nothing but cast cantrips for 5-6 days. Warlocks are just using Eldritch Blast all day because 2 spells and done just won't do. Clerics never use Channel Divinity. Barbarians never rage. Fighters don't use Action Surge or Second Wind. Every use of an ability becomes an agonizing "spongeworthy" crisis.

It honestly sounded like what he was trying to achieve - but he was only going after the healing part. If it's a crisis for healing, it should probably be a crisis for everybody to balance it out and not specially penalize those who, for a living, soak up damage instead of avoiding it.

There's something to be said for keeping the big guns in reserve - and if that's the kind of campaign his players want, where decisions which are everyday in a one-night-total-refresh become more meaningful, maybe he would consider something like this.

[Ziegander]

My point still stands. Their zeal for realism will be a detriment to the game causing problems that wouldn't exist had they just left things alone. As soon as someone asks "Alright, who's going to play the cleric?" or someone volunteers just for the sake of having a healer, it manifests.

I was asked for my opinion. I gave it. Asking for opinions does not mean automatic approval of the concept even if the opinion is rejected.

Your opinion is that these rules somehow force someone to play a healbot, but I just don't buy it. I think you're missing that this doesn't make mundane healing worse, really, it just makes short rest healing more important than it is standard, and that was my overall point. Again, making the healing spells better is unrelated to making the long rest healing less and making short rests more important, despite what you seem to think.

Standard long rest - Get all your hp back, recover one level of exhaustion, recover half your expended hit dice.
My long rest - Get half your hp back, recover half of your levels of exhaustion (min 1), recover all your expended hit dice.

While the immediate restoration of hit points is lower for my version of long rest, honestly, mine seems better than standard. So I'm just not seeing how my rules force groups into bringing a Life Cleric along.


Why does the death save get harder to make the higher your level is? Is it just to make the save stay relevant at higher levels?

It seems arbitrary.

Yeah, it is actually, and I wrote the ability forgetting that proficiency bonuses get added to normal saving throws. I wanted to reflect tougher characters being able to stand and take punishment a little better, but using a Constitution save just isn't going to work at all, now that I think of it. I'll have to go back and make it work as normal.


It honestly sounded like what he was trying to achieve - but he was only going after the healing part. If it's a crisis for healing, it should probably be a crisis for everybody to balance it out and not specially penalize those who, for a living, soak up damage instead of avoiding it.

There's something to be said for keeping the big guns in reserve - and if that's the kind of campaign his players want, where decisions which are everyday in a one-night-total-refresh become more meaningful, maybe he would consider something like this.

One thing I am trying to do is make short rests more significant, more mandatory, because my players are stuck in the oldschool mindset that while a long rest is something you've gotta do, taking even 10 minutes to catch your breath is a luxury they can't afford. Another thing I want to do is make more and better use of the Exhaustion mechanic in 5e, because while it's a very cool and useful set of rules, it almost never comes up. More realistically modelling food and drink needs is one way to do this, adding exhaustion to dropping to 0, to represent lasting "wounds," is another. Finally, I wanted to enable heroic last stands and final words with 5e's dying mechanics while at the same time, making dropping to 0 feel more scary. At my table, there's no real sense of danger to dropping to 0 hit points. Players don't like dropping, because they can't act, but in the experience of my players, actually dying is very difficult in 5e.

I'm not trying to make it harder for players to use their available resources. I don't know what in my post would make you think so.

[Gritmonger]

Okay, to sum up, if I may:
Players aren't using short rest, there should be more drama to combat, you'd like to use the exhaustion mechanics.

So, how about this:
Dropping to zero causes you to have to spend a level of exhaustion to act. Staying standing is considered part of an action. The level of exhaustion gets you a move, action, bonus and reaction, but unless you drop prone and cease acting at the start of your next turn, you take another level.

A character in this state that chose not to act still has a reaction available to do nothing but spend a level of exhaustion to immediately act and mark that point as their new spot in the turn order. Continue as before.

Characters are at this point "bleeding out" and making things worse by continuing to act. They keep any exhaustion even if healed. A short rest removes one level of exhaustion, a long rest removes all.

You could require expense of water and food to pay for a short rest. No food and water: no short rest. No food, no water: overnight only gets you the effect of a short rest.

Advantage is it might avoid as much modification of the mechanics of healing, puts the exhaustion mechanics in the hands of the players.

To up the drama even more - make it cost a level of exhaustion and an automatic failed death saving throw.

[LordVonDerp]

Your opinion is that these rules somehow force someone to play a healbot, but I just don't buy it. I think you're missing that this doesn't make mundane healing worse, really, it just makes short rest healing more important than it is standard, and that was my overall point. Again, making the healing spells better is unrelated to making the long rest healing less and making short rests more important, despite what you seem to think.

Standard long rest - Get all your hp back, recover one level of exhaustion, recover half your expended hit dice.
My long rest - Get half your hp back, recover half of your levels of exhaustion (min 1), recover all your expended hit dice.

While the immediate restoration of hit points is lower for my version of long rest, honestly, mine seems better than standard. So I'm just not seeing how my rules force groups into bringing a Life Cleric along.





Because half a characters health is more than half their hit dice, even assuming above average hit dice rolls?

[Pex]

Even just being at half-health is a disadvantage to the players because all the NPCs will be at full health. The players still have to spend limited resources to heal up they can't use for later or other things when it's spells. If no one plays the cleric they don't even have the spells so someone has to and still not get to enjoy casting his limited spell slots on other things just to catch up on healing in comparison to if you kept the rules as they are normally.

[campskully]

I like the somewhat hardcore rules but it looks like you just want more realism out of it. Anyway, word of wisdom, worrying that much about food and water over time takes a lot o energy out of your table so tread lightly. I use a food per activity rule set so that its a lot simpler. You're spell changes are pretty awesome but just a tad strong

[Kryx]

Random encounters are basically nullified if you use long rest = full hp. Really any small encounters that don't add up to testing the party's limits.
There is never any carryover and that makes it quite annoying and gamey to work around as a GM.

[Pex]

Random encounters are basically nullified if you use long rest = full hp. Really any small encounters that don't add up to testing the party's limits.
There is never any carryover and that makes it quite annoying and gamey to work around as a GM.

Random encounters affect short rests. Using them prevents abuse of taking a short rest after every fight and works well to incorporate two and sometimes three combats between short rests as the game is built around.

[Kryx]

Random encounters affect short rests. Using them prevents abuse of taking a short rest after every fight and works well to incorporate two and sometimes three combats between short rests as the game is built around.
Since I was on mobile I'll spell out the specific case:

Traveling with random encounters. If your group travels and over a day hits a fair challenge, but not life threatening then it doesn't really matter. Those encounters may have well just never happened because full HP is given. If on the other hand the party loses some hp (say 10-30%) then they have to spend a small amount of resources and sometimes that does impact the following days. It depends.

That is my experience and why I take a similar approach to the OP: "The first hour of a long rest is treated as a short rest where any remaining HD can be spent. At the end of a long rest, a character regains no hit points, but regains all spent Hit Dice and can spend one or more Hit Dice, up to the character’s maximum number of Hit Dice, which is equal to the character's level. "

It was also a variant rule in the playtest: "Slower Hit Point Recovery: At the end of a long rest, you regain no hit points, but you do regain all your Hit Dice and can spend any number of them without using a healer’s kit"

[Safety Sword]

Random encounters are basically nullified if you use long rest = full hp. Really any small encounters that don't add up to testing the party's limits.
There is never any carryover and that makes it quite annoying and gamey to work around as a GM.

I don't like to kill my PCs when a tough fight comes along, so I prefer to let them use their resources on important things. Healing everyone before bed or in the morning because I just loaded my spells up is now a bygone practice and I for one am glad. I can now play a cleric and not feel like I'm the healing vending machine. When I choose to heal it's because it matters.

Not letting PCs be at full health limits the types of encounters I can throw at them.

Plus, I can "encourage" them to move on with random encounters or even small planned encounters if I don't want to let them rest because the story demands it.