(3.5) Problems With the Party

[Kesnit]

I'm running a 3.5 campaign with 4 players and am having 2 problems

The Party
Elf Bard 11
Human Barbarian 2/Warlock (Clawlock) 9
Human Factotum 11
Homebrew cat-race Rogue 5/SORC 6

Issue 1 - Too Easy or Too Hard
I'm having a devil of a time balancing encounters. Almost everything I throw at them is either so easy they steamroll it, or so hard that I risk killing PCs. I've tried encounters full of casters and a mix of casters and melee. The only encounter that worked was the psionic monsters that spammed Dominate (to get the NPC Barbarian that the Bard had previously Charmed and the Clawlock to stop attacking) and one Mass Suggestion (which sent the Factotum and Clawlock out of the room). Flying enemies? The Clawlock can fly. SR or DR? Bypassed.

The problem I'm running into is with AC and AB/Damage. I can't manage to find anything (or build anything within the rules) that has a high enough AC that the party doesn't auto-hit and has a high enough AB/damage output that it can hit the party and do enough damage to cause concern. (I don't want to kill the PCs, but I'd like them to be worried.) When it comes to casters, I can't get the saves high enough that there is actually a risk of a PC failing a save. (Anything I give the enemies that would boost the DC of saves will end up as party loot, and they are already above WBL.) I'm building enemies with WBL of PCs, rather than NPCs. I'm also building them about 1 level lower than the PCs, because anything lower is pointless. I'd build at higher levels, but that just means giving the PCs more wealth once they win. If I use creatures from any Monster Manual, I run into the same problems - low AC, low AB, low damage, and low DCs on saves.

Every encounter involves at least 3 enemies, and I've gone as high as 6.

I am aware that the PCs are supposed to win. But it gets discouraging when I feel like I'm just handing them XP and treasure without any effort on their part. Help?

Issue 2 - PC Building Towards Uselessness
The other problem is specifically with the Rogue/SORC. Although I have offered several times to let him rebuild as a Daggerspell Mage, and he says he will, he keeps coming up with reasons not to. First, he wanted to wait until he got his custom daggers from the NPC Artificer. I sped up time a little so he could get the daggers. Now he is saying he wants to wait until the party is LVL 12 so he can get 2 levels of Rogue (for Evasion). What this means is that he is have more and more trouble in combat. He struggles to bypass level-appropriate SR since his CL is 6. He casts as a 6th-level SORC in an 11th level party. His Rogue skills out-of-combat are fine, but that means I have to throw in traps/locked doors/etc so he has something to do. (I find them rather pointless much of the time since they are pass/fail - either he succeeds or he does not.) In combat, he has a few skill tricks, but once those are used, he's reduced to firing his bow. He's also annoyed because the party has been fighting undead and constructs, which means he isn't getting SA.*

I've talked to the Clawlock player (my wife) and she agrees with me. She tried talking to the Rogue/SORC after our last game, but he is adamant about not rebuilding yet. We got the impression at that time that this is a point of contention between the Rogue/SORC and the Factotum (who have played together before) - he doesn't know how to optimize to the level of the party (which is low) and has no interest in learning.



* The daggers are +4 equivalent, but are only +1 daggers, so he can't use a Greater Demolition or Greater Truedeath crystal.

[Eloel]

That's not a particularly powerful party you have there - can you give stats on what you have been throwing at them? Appropriate-CR encounters of all flavors shouldn't be a walk in the park for a T3-ish party.

I'd also say ignore the stubborn person who's gimping his own build. He'll come around when he realizes he's useless - I'd not modify down the traps or anything to suit him, you still have a Factotum and what is challenging for the Rogue will be pointless to him.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Does the sorc / rogue not realize you have greater system mastery than him? I mean if I had a player insisting on being mediocre I'd stop giving them their moment. He feels useful because you've put traps in for him to disable. Simply don't put in anymore. Let him be useless each combat and when he finally complains about it point out you offered to let him rebuild to not suck so much. He'll quit childishly or acquiesce and rebuild. Hopefully with assistance. Other option is point that you're trying to maintain a certain level of power within the party and he is so far below it that it's screwing with the group. Put the DM foot down.

Also the to easy or to hard thing. "or so hard that I risk killing PCs" that's intentional certain fights PCs go through are INTENDED to have a risk of death with them. If you dislike the death risk you're probably more inclined to the story so all i can say is stay on the weak / boring side of encounters or fudge the rolls behind the dm screen.

[Geddy2112]

Solve both problems at once. Throw a hard monster with no treasure at the party, and its likely the sorcerer/rogue will die. Player rolls up something that functions, and the party is challenged.

I think you could still optimize encounters better-the party is not insanely powerful by any means unless you allowed them by monty hauling. If so, just scale up monsters and reduce treasure till it balances out.

Also, try a LOT of enemies. Hordes of goblins can be a lot tougher than a solo monster because they can just gang up on the solo monster. Or set the monster in favorable conditions while the PC's are in unfavorable ones. A gelatinous cube falling from the ceiling in a tunnel about 5ft wide, or aquatic creatures in moving(but not deadly fast) water where the PC's have to swim. A standard open room where the good guys and bad guys line up and play magic red rover gives the players incredible advantage. Try monsters with DR, or other modes of movement like being incorporeal, flying, both. Use magic and abilities to their utmost potential. Monsters are not just HP, AC and attack bonus-don't play them that way.

[Ellowryn]

Try making custom monsters, or editing pre-existing ones (get rid of crappy feats, poor spells known lists, etc). To be quite honest DnD's CR system is a best dysfunctional and at worst pointless (see That Damn Crab). As has already been pointed out actually play the NPC's to the best of their abilities (Int 10 is average human intelligence), which includes gathering information about enemies and setting 'appropriate' traps and ambushes, tailoring spell/item lists, and knowing when to press the advantage or run away.

[Kesnit]

That's not a particularly powerful party you have there - can you give stats on what you have been throwing at them? Appropriate-CR encounters of all flavors shouldn't be a walk in the park for a T3-ish party.

1) Drow Wizards and Llolth-touched Clerics, which I built. The ECL was 1-2 below that of the party. I threw 2-3 Wizards and 3-4 Clerics. Spells were useless since the party always made their saves.
2) When the above didn't work, I added 4-5 Human Barbarians (also built by me) to get in the party's way while the casters did their stuff.
3) Fang Golem (MM IV) and 2 Platinum Horror (MM II, but changed to Medium).
4) 7 Platinum Horrors.
5) 3 Banshrae (MM V) and 4 Elder Psurlon (Lords of Madness).

As I said before, my problem comes because (1) nothing can hit the party, (2) the party can hit anything, and (3) the party always makes their saves. If I add items to negate 1, 2, and/or 3, it's just more treasure that the party gets when they win. The last thing I want to do is give them more stuff. I already add HP to monsters so the Clawlock can't kill something in one round.


Solve both problems at once. Throw a hard monster with no treasure at the party, and its likely the sorcerer/rogue will die. Player rolls up something that functions, and the party is challenged.

He's died once already and come close several times. He was rezzed with the same build. If he gets close to dying, he gets angry.


I think you could still optimize encounters better-the party is not insanely powerful by any means unless you allowed them by monty hauling. If so, just scale up monsters and reduce treasure till it balances out.

Rogue/SORC also sulks if they go a long while without treasure.


Also, try a LOT of enemies. Hordes of goblins can be a lot tougher than a solo monster because they can just gang up on the solo monster.

I am using multiples.


Try monsters with DR,

The constructs have DR, spell immunity, or both.


flying,

The Drow Wizards were flying and invisible.

[Doctor Awkward]

-Stop attacking them with spells that allow saves.

-Use things that have concealment and miss chances.



If that Rogue/Sorc player is going to insist on being such a problem child, rebuilding will not help. He gets mad when theirs no treasure and when he gets close to dying? Really?
Have you told him point blank, "Your character is mechanically far weaker than the rest of the party. If I challenge them, you will be useless?" And he's still refused to budge? Then he dies. Every good game needs a running gag now and then.

[Telonius]

Just from the builds, it does look like you have a kind of tricky situation there. The Rogue/Sorcerer doesn't really have a niche to fill that wouldn't be taken already by the Bard or the Factotum (who are probably doing his job better than he could). It's not impossible to have two people filling the same role in a single party, but it is trickier to pull off and requires a level of maturity and teamwork that - from your description - just isn't happening.

The other unfortunate thing is that the other guy is playing a Warlock - which is usually the go-to class I'd suggest for a player that can't seem to figure out how to optimize. (Low-ish ceiling, but high floor, and very easy to figure out).

Anyway, even if you kill the character and force the rebuild, that's not really going to solve the two big problems: he can't optimize (minor-to-medium problem) and doesn't want to learn (major problem). If those aren't addressed, the next character he builds will still be floundering. I would strongly suggest talking to the person to figure out (#1) if he's actually having fun, and (#2) how he can help the rest of the group have fun.


As for the other stuff ... I'd actually suggest throwing several Monks (or Swordsages if you're comfortable with that kind of complexity) at them. I've had similar AC/AB problems with my current group, but had excellent luck with a large team of Monk/Kensai Goliaths led by a Bard. Bardic Music helps shore up the Monks' weaker attacks; Kensai can get you a Wounding unarmed attack, which is really nasty; and they have really nice saves and high-ish AC, especially if buffed.

[Eloel]

You seem to be throwing a bunch of weak enemies at them and stacking CR up that way. That rarely works, because the CR rules are crap.

Throw them a Mature Adult White Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon) or an Elder Fire Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#fireElemental) or a Dread Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm), possibly with smaller sidekicks (kobolds/medium elementals/wraiths) (all CR 11/12) and see what happens.

Also I don't see how their saves are that good - could there be dice-fudging going on?

Their worst save at that level should be around +8/+9 unless they heavily invested on it. A generic caster with 18 in main stat casting his highest level spells at level 11 is going to give DC20 (less than 50% chance of success) - and that's a very low floor.

[Tvtyrant]

I would throw some big grapplers with a few CC casters. All below CR but in dome numbers. Giant crocs, gargantuan bugs, etc. Solid fog and the like yo keep the party off balance.

[Drork]

-Stop attacking them with spells that allow saves.

-Use things that have concealment and miss chances.

Touch base spells are wonderful be sure to throw a handful of saves in so they feel like they are doing something.

This are great I would also throw ability drain in there. Nothing strikes terror into a high level player when you say "and take 6 points of con damage. How much con do you have left? Dont forget to adjust your HP for your lost con, oh and your save".

A way to buff your villains is have them use buffs on themselves. The potions they drink comes directly out of the PC treasure. Increase caster stats raises saves, increase con or potions of vigor make the encounters last longer. Think like a player, also you can include my old favorite the potion of poison marked healing they never quite get to drink as their final revenge. Also if you want to give them some shiny new sword. Use it to Sunder their old one so they dont get any gold return from it, not only will it raise the challenge of the current encounter it can help level WBL.

Also never forget the assist combat actions. With 8 hobgoblins you can hit an AC in the range of (7*2+10--20) 24-34 with some average to good rolling if you can surround someone. Sure they are not going to hit hard but if you consider the options with more level suitable encounters I am sure you can get the PCs scared (also use subdue damage to really get them stressing).

Having had a problem of a terrible build before in a campaign that was long running after much discussing with another member of the group we came on the brilliant idea of an item that they really wanted that was cursed to change their class as they progressed. For example make the new daggers cursed so when he goes up a level he loses 2 levels of his choice but replaces them with daggerspell. He can chose to throw away the awesome magic item or he can accept his fate and change class but the option is his to take and he will know he is picking the weaker path my throwing away an awesome magic item so no complaining. Next level you step it up to 4 then 8 and your done. You could even make the item intelligent and friendly towards him for even greater push to how awesome are my daggers and I really want to keep them.

The other option is direct him towards the feat that raises his caster level by 4. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Improved_Caster_Level_%283.5e_Feat%29 . This will instantly bump their CL up to 10. Making their spells more effective in dice and duration as well as SR. Could have it hidden in the daggers as well as part of your evil plan to force them into becoming a daggerspell.

The other thing is throw the trap into combat not between combat. Making a resetting arrow trap or even an anti magic zone trap would really put the pressure on keeping him out of the "fighting" but making him useful in the battle. Pit trap filling with water against undead is another good one where he wont miss his SA because he is too busy saving the day so they dont drown. A locked door opening to a more favorable fighting space (either more or less area based on what the party is going to want)

The other option is split the party in short bursts so the more powerful hitters are in one group and the less powerful ones in the other. Have two paths of equal important and then DM curtain the encounters so they line up. Run them side by side so everyone can see round by round what is going on in the other group can make people feel like the party isnt even split.

A few ideas to pick from things that have worked for me in the past.

[Janthkin]

How is your Clawlock getting around SR? Vitriolic Blast is a Greater Invocation, and isn't available until Warlock 11 (or equivalent). And once they go THAT route, you can start pulling out "Resist/Protection from Energy: Acid." Similarly, (Minor) Globes of Invulnerability negate a lot of a Warlock's Eldritch Blast options. And none of that is treasure.

If you're going to use spells with saves against them, focus on return on investment - make them all save, which will greatly increase the chances of failure. Slow is awfully painful to deal with, so some PC is going to have to spend an action to clean up afterwards; Net of Shadows is another good one, particularly coming from something like a Gnome Beguiler or Illusionist with the appropriate boosting feats. Battlefield control spells like Solid Fog don't allow a save, and even if the Warlock isn't in the fog cloud, she's suddenly very much alone. Skip the reflex-based area damage spells, and go for multi-target inhibitors; when someone fails, follow up with a volley of Orb spells.

Summoned monsters are a great way to make a battle harder, without increasing the treasure. Optimize a summoning wizard just a bit.

Contingency should be coming online for your villains right about now; it's hard to loot the bodies when they Teleport out when they get near to death.

Have you explored your Illusion options recently? Pair with Summoned monsters for greater confusion. Want to REALLY annoy? Give your summoner "Invisible Spell" and have him through invisible, illusionary monsters at the party, mixed with invisible Shadow Conjuration monsters. The Warlock will go nuts (as I assume it's the Warlock's See the Unseen that is providing anti-invisibility protection).

Put your locks & traps into combat encounters, so that the Rogue has something to do AND a pressing time issue. It'll also lock down some of the other PCs to protect him; call for Concentration checks from the Rogue if he's injured while disarming the suitcase nuke or whatever.

Remember that the rules for Bardic music require the targets to be able to hear the Bard's music to benefit; set an encounter in a cave behind a waterfall, and nobody is hearing squat. Or send a bunch of griblies after him, each of which is carrying a sword with Silence cast on it. No save there!

How's their collective Spot? See the Unseen doesn't help against Hide.

Ability-draining undead would likely soften them up quite a bit.