[3.5+PF] Potions worth having?

[deuxhero]

Potions are normally way too costly for their one use nature and extremely limited targeting. What spells are worth having on one despite this?

The two I can think of:
Cure Minor Wounds/Stabilize: If only one person can use the wand of cure light wounds, you likely want to make sure they, and anyone KOed simultaneously, don't die. Not needed if Blessed Bandages are in play.
Air Bubble: If you're knocked into a large body of water or in a flooding chamber, you either don't want to wait for or can't get someone to cast/wand it on you.

edit: Alchemical Allocation, Permanent Potion and Bountiful Bottle remove the costs and make loads of stuff usable, but are not really the point of the thread.

[Geddy2112]

Potions are horrible buys and once the party has any decent level they are worthless. Scrolls cost half as much to make/purchase for the same thing-between a party of 4 somebody should either have the spell on their spell list or enough ranks in UMD to just scroll those things you need sometimes. Things that get regular use should be on wands carried by a good UMD or person with the spell on their spell list.

The only times I see potions being handy are at very low levels so everybody has an emergency healing potion just in case, or for situations like water or vacuum etc. I suppose if you had a non alchemist with craft alchemy(gunslinger maybe, poison themed rogue) and no divine caster and needed a field cure to blindness or whatever it would be good. An alchemist can just use their formula on other party members so long as they took the extract discovery, which they better have.

[deuxhero]

Already mentioned they are terrible. Wanted ones that were worth bothering with despite the problems.

[KingSmitty]

Potions are normally way too costly for their one use nature and extremely limited targeting. What spells are worth having on one despite this?


I'm fond of Potions of Enlarge Self, Haste, and other combat enhancing spells. Sure as was mentioned they're expensive and worthless if you have a buffer in the party, but for those who don't have access to a dedicated party buffer or the gold to buy really expensive magic items, theyre great in a pinch and you'd be unprepared if you didn't have them as a backup plan

[Chilxius]

I would say the case for potions is spells with a range of 'personal'. Specifically True Strike. I swear by True Strike.

[IZ42]

True strike is probably useful. I personally like armor buffing items, like Barkskin or Shield of Faith, which bump up armor for a while (10 min./CL or 1 min./CL)

[Hiro Quester]

A potion of glibness has saved my bacon a couple of times. Keep in reserve for that one unexpected situation in which you really need people to believe your story.

+30 to bluff, independently of the cooperation of the party caster (esp if that caster is one of the people you need to bluff) can be very handy to keep a potion around for.

One was for infiltration to rescue some party members from a prison.

Another was less crucial, but still good to have. My gnome Druid was once challenged to a prank contest by another gnome Druid. I used a long-ago acquired potion of glibness to both play a better prank than his (some party members also being victims), and to help make everyone believe that the other Druid was to blame for it. Double whammy.

[Seerow]

Potions of negative spells to use as pseudo-poisons can be interesting.

[Der_DWSage]

Hm. For potions to be at all useful, you need them to be largely independent of level for their effects or else the price skyrockets too high to be useful, and they generally need to create a new option, rather than do bigger numbers. Glibness and Guidance of the Avatar are pretty explicit exemptions to that, though.

1st level:True Strike, Enlarge Person, various 'sneak attack this particular creature' spells. I'd argue a few Cure Light Wound potions are worth the price, if only to keep unconscious people from dying.
2nd level:Invisibility, Spider Climb, Levitate, See Invisibility, Silence, Guidance of the Avatar, Alter Self.
3rd level:Fly, (Flight is love, flight is life.) Glibness, and maybe Tongues.

The real problem though, is that there are cheaper options.

[deuxhero]

True Strike and Glibness aren't legal. There are no potions of personal spells.

[Thurbane]

Lesser Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restorationLesser.htm): sometimes it' useful to have in a hurry, and a Potion drops it from 3 rounds to 1 standard action.

[Telok]

Potions are bad, elixirs are good.
Brew Potion is a crap feat that is exceeded by Craft Wonderous Item in every way. The math for potions and elixirs is the same but an elixer can have personal spells and spells over third level. Only sorcerers or warlocks who dump Int and Wis take Brew Potion.

Elixer of Heal is worth the gold.

[Seharvepernfan]

I do think that potions/alchemy/elixirs/poisons ought to be more combined, but I don't have a problem with potions. I get them all the time with various characters.

Often a potion of lesser vigor, because it is simple to use, even if I have a wand (because I might not want to fail a check).

Hide from Undead/Animals on any character is very useful if you find yourself around some that really don't want to be fighting.

Jump for that extra boost.

Invisibility for rogues; it's nice to have something to fall back on.

Bull's str for melee types; it's for that extra oomph you need on big important fights.

Reduce person/enlarge person (CL1); self-explanatory.

A potion of fly can be a lifesaver.

For higher level martials, I'll often spend my last bit of gold on an elixir of heal or a potion of barkskin +3-5.

[Rubik]

For any potion, make sure the creator had the Sanctum Spell feat and created the potion outside of said sanctum.

The same with any item, really, but still.

[Hiro Quester]

True Strike and Glibness aren't legal. There are no potions of personal spells.

Where does it say that? Brew potion says that you can make a potion of any spell "that targets one or more creatures". Personal spells target one creature.

Is there another rule that is more specific about the spells that can be brewed into potions?

[jiriku]

Really, any useful spell that no one in the party can cast. Paying double compared to a scroll is worth it if no one would be able to use the scroll. In particular, spells that enable new movement modes (spider climb, levitate, fly, water walk) and spells that add new capabilities (tongues, water breathing, gaseous form) are especially useful, because they'll often enable you to do something that was impossible otherwise, while spells that merely grant a bonus or offer a defense only make you incrementally better at doing something you were already able to do.

[jiriku]

Where does it say that? Brew potion says that you can make a potion of any spell "that targets one or more creatures". Personal spells target one creature.

Is there another rule that is more specific about the spells that can be brewed into potions?

Personal is a range, not a target. However, most personal-range spells do include a line that says "target: you". I had never interpreted Brew Potion to exclude personal-range spells, but I looked at the DMG list of potions just now. Lo and behold, there are no personal-range spells. Same with Magic Item Compendium. I believe that Telok has it correctly. The wording may have been poor, but there seems to have been intent to ban potions of personal-range spells.

[With a box]

Potion of painless death.
They are willing to drink potion, right?

http://dndtools.pw/spells/ghostwalk--94/painless-death--1375/

[Seerow]

Personal is a range, not a target. However, most personal-range spells do include a line that says "target: you". I had never interpreted Brew Potion to exclude personal-range spells, but I looked at the DMG list of potions just now. Lo and behold, there are no personal-range spells. Same with Magic Item Compendium. I believe that Telok has it correctly. The wording may have been poor, but there seems to have been intent to ban potions of personal-range spells.

The list of potions in the DMG is extremely limited, and I think it would be a mistake to judge what can and cannot be made into a potion off that list rather than the actual text describing potions.

[JDL]

Where does it say that? Brew potion says that you can make a potion of any spell "that targets one or more creatures". Personal spells target one creature.

Is there another rule that is more specific about the spells that can be brewed into potions?

From the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm


Creating Potions
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion—25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.

Item Creation Feat Required
Brew Potion.

My list of potions to carry in case of emergency:

Potion of Water Breathing
Potion of Gaseous Form
Potion of Neutralize Poison
Potion of Remove Blindness
Potion of Remove Curse
Potion of Haste

These are all situational use spells that could save your character's life if required. Good luck activating a scroll while blind or underwater. If you're stuck in a grapple you really want to get out of or get trapped in a cage or so forth, turning into a gaseous cloud gets you out of trouble fast. Remove Curse and Haste are for when enemies use Curse or Slow on you.

[Chilxius]

No potions of True Strike?

This is...this is hard for me...

Like finding out about Santa Claus...

[Rubik]

No potions of True Strike?

This is...this is hard for me...

Like finding out about Santa Claus...How about finding a StP erudite with True Strike and Soul Crystal as powers known? Combined with a manifestation of Quintessence to store the resulting soul crystal, you basically get the same effect (except for a couple dozen or so uses).

[jiriku]

No potions of True Strike?

This is...this is hard for me...

Like finding out about Santa Claus...

I know what you mean. I feel like an optometrist who's died and woken up in the Abyss, in a town full of oculus demons....

[deuxhero]

My list of potions to carry in case of emergency:

Potion of Water Breathing
Potion of Gaseous Form
Potion of Neutralize Poison
Potion of Remove Blindness
Potion of Remove Curse
Potion of Haste

These are all situational use spells that could save your character's life if required. Good luck activating a scroll while blind or underwater. If you're stuck in a grapple you really want to get out of or get trapped in a cage or so forth, turning into a gaseous cloud gets you out of trouble fast. Remove Curse and Haste are for when enemies use Curse or Slow on you.

Not so sure on Haste and Remove Curse, but remove blindness and Gaseous Form are definitely good options

@Seharvepernfan Invisibility and hide from undead/animals seem like decent panic buttons.

[Thurbane]

Lesser Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restorationLesser.htm): sometimes it' useful to have in a hurry, and a Potion drops it from 3 rounds to 1 standard action.

This has got me thinking - what other spells with long casting times can benefit from being made into a potion?

[Kurald Galain]

This has got me thinking - what other spells with long casting times can benefit from being made into a potion?

Enlarge is a full-round action in PF, and so it becomes faster in potion form.

Overall I restrict potions to any L1 spells that are situationally live-saving, including hide from undead / animals, endure elements, air bubble, CLW, protection from evil, remove fear, and antitoxin / antiplague; plus enlarge, and occasionally a L2 spell like resist energy or invis. Needless to say any character that can use scrolls will get those instead. A couple hundred GP is pocket change, really.

Spells that are meant to be used frequently (e.g. mage armor / shield) are better kept as wands.

[Darrin]

No potions of True Strike?


You can still get personal spells via Skull Talismans (Frostburn) or Glyph Seals (Magic Item Compendium).

[ace rooster]

Remove blindness. You could have it as a scroll, but sods law dictates that it is the cleric who goes blind... :smallsigh:

[Thurbane]

Enlarge is a full-round action in PF, and so it becomes faster in potion form.

It's a 1 round casting time in 3.5 as well - good call.

[Kurald Galain]

Remove blindness. You could have it as a scroll, but sods law dictates that it is the cleric who goes blind... :smallsigh:

Indeed. I found out the hard way that certain "potions of condition removal" also don't work because the condition itself prevents you from drinking potions :smallbiggrin:

[IZ42]

Indeed. I found out the hard way that certain "potions of condition removal" also don't work because the condition itself prevents you from drinking potions :smallbiggrin:
I now have this image of this corpse saying, "Oh, I'm dead. No worries, I've got a potion of CLW handy, I'll be back up in no time!"

[Thurbane]

We've had occasions in our game where someone has to grapple a character running from a Cause Fear spell while someone forces a potion of Remove Fear down their throats. :smalltongue:

[FocusWolf413]

Indeed. I found out the hard way that certain "potions of condition removal" also don't work because the condition itself prevents you from drinking potions :smallbiggrin:

Aren't there also magical oils that use the same rules as potions? Just rub them on your skin.

I like keeping a potion/oil of charm. Although it's usually a cursed item, my character is never the one drinking it. It's helpful to slip it in someone's drink before diplomatic negotiations.

[Rubik]

Aren't there also magical oils that use the same rules as potions? Just rub them on your skin.Or else you get the hose again.

[FocusWolf413]

Or else you get the hose again.

That would just be a mundane container of some fatty animal product, like grease.

[JDL]

Not so sure on Haste and Remove Curse, but remove blindness and Gaseous Form are definitely good options

Haste and Remove Curse are 750 gp each, sure. By level 5 when these spells come online that represents 16% of your total wealth by level. But the biggest advantage to having them is that it can save you from losing 50% of your actions due to a bad saving throw. Bestow Curse has a 50% chance to prevent you from taking any action in a given round and it's permanent duration. Slow only lasts 1 round/level, but you can only take a single move or standard action per round when you're hit with it. Both are save-or-lose spells, and they have a counter in bottle form. I personally consider the investment worth having in my pack, but if pressed to choose only one, I'd pick Remove Curse over Haste. At least Slow wears off later, and many parties have a spellcaster available that prepares Haste regularly.


Aren't there also magical oils that use the same rules as potions? Just rub them on your skin.

I like keeping a potion/oil of charm. Although it's usually a cursed item, my character is never the one drinking it. It's helpful to slip it in someone's drink before diplomatic negotiations.

Doesn't work that way. The drinker is both the caster and the target of the spell. Essentially they just cast Charm Person on themselves, and unless they have some underlying self-esteem issues, they're probably already pretty fond of themselves to begin with.

On the other hand, an Elixir of Love is a Wonderous Item, takes the Charm Person spell as a prerequisite, and has exactly the effect you described for just a smidge more cost.

[FocusWolf413]

Haste and Remove Curse are 750 gp each, sure. By level 5 when these spells come online that represents 16% of your total wealth by level. But the biggest advantage to having them is that it can save you from losing 50% of your actions due to a bad saving throw. Bestow Curse has a 50% chance to prevent you from taking any action in a given round and it's permanent duration. Slow only lasts 1 round/level, but you can only take a single move or standard action per round when you're hit with it. Both are save-or-lose spells, and they have a counter in bottle form. I personally consider the investment worth having in my pack, but if pressed to choose only one, I'd pick Remove Curse over Haste. At least Slow wears off later, and many parties have a spellcaster available that prepares Haste regularly.



Doesn't work that way. The drinker is both the caster and the target of the spell. Essentially they just cast Charm Person on themselves, and unless they have some underlying self-esteem issues, they're probably already pretty fond of themselves to begin with.

On the other hand, an Elixir of Love is a Wonderous Item, takes the Charm Person spell as a prerequisite, and has exactly the effect you described for just a smidge more cost.

Yeah, that's the one I meant.

[Kurald Galain]

Aren't there also magical oils that use the same rules as potions? Just rub them on your skin.
As Red Mage puts it, "Everyone knows that smashing glass bottles against your face works just as well."

Just take a potion of cure insanity and throw it at your confused teammate, hard :smallbiggrin:

[JDL]

Drink a Potion of Suggestion. Suggest to yourself that you feel much better.