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View Full Version : So where would "Human Aliens" attack?



Akisa
2015-04-27, 04:09 PM
So about 70 Thousand years ago aliens had taken a large population of the Humans on Earth as the Aliens had become dependent on cloning themselves like the Star Gate SG-1 Asgard. Humans seem to be genetically similar to that of the Aliens who hail from Atlantis. Now in the present time the people from Atlantis have since died out and the Humans left on other planets have reversed technology of those from Atlantis to some degree. The Human Aliens have found Earth which they call Eden, and they want to control Earth but not destroy its industrial capacity as they feared a threat that hunted the Atlantis would return.

Where would these aliens attack?

Keltest
2015-04-27, 04:13 PM
The smaller countries with fewer resources that nobody cares about. Immediately placing a stranglehold on the world's important resources is going to provoke a "do or die" reaction from the rest of the civilized world, since they, you know, need those. But if they establish a beachhead in an area that nobody cares about, the rest of the world doesn't perceive itself as backed into a corner and so will put up significantly less of a fight at first. People with nothing to lose fight the hardest and all that.

Unless the near-human aliens can ROFL-stomp the world anyway, in which case they'll do it wherever they feel like it.

VoxRationis
2015-04-27, 04:17 PM
The first thing to attack would logically be satellites, both because you get to them earlier and because they represent a logistical point of weakness. I assume if they have interstellar travel they probably also have powerful weapons, so striking immediately at the most powerful centers of enemy resistance would be useful—you want to take out the strongest enemies first, so they don't have a chance to wear you down with attrition before throwing their best stuff at you.

Segev
2015-04-27, 04:18 PM
They wouldn't. They'd infiltrate.

They want to be in control. The people they want to dominate look like them. There are two useful methods for achieving this with minimal destruction:

1) Hide the existence of aliens at all. Use their superior technology to scout undetected and to establish themselves in lower-tech (and lower-bureaucracy) areas of the world. Exploit corruption to fake identities where necessary, and just move in through semi-legitimate channels where they can exploit excuses for not having the requisite identifying information.

Use their scientific knowledge to get hired into important positions developing and advising on tech. Use their superior knowledge of high-tech warfare and cryptography to not only pierce any cryptographic security Earthlings might have, but to position themselves as go-to experts on high-security subjects.

If they have it, use technology and advanced psychological knowledge to infiltrate and control media, information systems, and to rise to power. Probably aim for power first in the most industrialized dictatorial nations, as a new dictator taking over is less noteworthy than it might seem.

Finally, try running for office in the first world, using the media control to help smooth the way.


2) Approach Earth openly as friends and allies. Offer to trade tech for positions of influence in Earthling governments. Don't be subtle; honesty about "we have tech, and we want our own say in how things are governed" is potentially met well.



Heck, with either approach, they could start with deep Africa, the uninhabited reaches of Australia, or even (given sufficeint terraforming tech) Antarctica. Build up nations of their own in uncontested regions, and use superior technology to simply threaten anybody who'd stop them.

In mode 2), trade expertise for manufacturing work. In mode 1), take over the industrial capacity by infiltrating the leadership, whether commercial or governmental.

boomwolf
2015-04-27, 04:27 PM
This has no answer without knowing what are they capable of.

Alien tech can, in theory, do some crazy things we are not ready for.

Can they make a clone with the mind of one and the body of another? than they can literally take the place of high ranking members of human society.

If they have indomitable weapons, and care little for earth-tech weaponry themselves, a simple power display could be enough to make people surrender.

Maybe they can take over earth's computing systems subversively, therefor taking over western economy and spinning it to raise themselves to positions of power.

Maybe they can create things of value out of things of little to no value, making them an instant economic powerhouse.


Heck, maybe they can pull off multiple of these at once, therefor controlling both the "alien overlords" and the "resistance" factions, making a "matrix inside the matrix" scenario.


Too many maybes. you gotta first figure out what is and what isn't in their power-than you figure what they will do with it.

VoxRationis
2015-04-27, 04:28 PM
Wait until the residents come up against some glaring, global problem that threatens their entire society, and offer them technological solutions if they bend their knee.

Mark Hall
2015-04-27, 04:50 PM
I watched the first episode of Transformers a couple years ago and thought to myself "You know, if the Decepticons simply patented some of their technology, they could buy all the energy resources they wanted pretty easily." And immediately went into a thought about teaming up with Cobra Commander to do this.

So, if these aliens are so human, I really do think infiltration would be their best bet. Maybe take over a small country, relatively democratically, and start producing a lot of neat technologies that they're in control of, extending their reach.

hiryuu
2015-04-27, 04:52 PM
Here's a fun one: you own space, it's the literal high ground. It is, in fact, the highest ground. You could sit at the distance of the moon and the puny Earthlings wouldn't even be able to fight back as you use micrometeor strikes (harvested from their own solar system, even) to destroy global shipping and dismantle their global infrastructure and major population centers piece by piece. You don't even have to talk to them, just listen on the radio for a little bit. Popping Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, and New York will make the global economy collapse. Preventing anything from getting in and out of Africa and the Middle East will kill America's military machine (The United States won't be able to repair or replace any of its jet engines), the only nation with enough bloated spending to even think about launching a counter-offense against you.

Hell, at this point, they'll likely only know it's an attack because the meteor strikes are so specifically targeted.

Wait a couple months. Let them all spend their emergency supplies trying to either A) find you, even if it will be useless to do so, or B) fight it out with their neighbors. Come back when the entire planet's military machine is grounded for lack of fuel.

A good thing to do while you're waiting (and continually raining down micrometeor strikes on any population that looks like it's large enough to try and mount a response of any kind) is to mine out the asteroid belt, Venus, Mars, and anything else in the solar system that strikes your fancy. There's hydrogen galore, and tons of water and ice and gold and copper and iron and whatever that can keep fueling your ability to keep churning out planes and armor and weapons (you're going to need those for this next part). Titan is basically one giant planet made of fuel if you're into burning things (it's likely you can harvest solar power way better than the Earthlings).

Anyway, once almost everything's exhausted on Earth and you've shot down a lot of rockets and long since stopped listening to the short-wave radio pleas for mercy, then it's time to go down, with guns.

The guns aren't for starting fights. They're just there to remind the disparate bands of Earthlings who think they can still win that they actually can't (because if there's a problem you can just withdraw, glass the ground, and come back). No, what you're going to do is give them food. Water. Clothes. You're going to put television and radio back up, but it's all going to be your food, your clothes, your mass media. Let the holdouts fight. You don't want them, really. Because one generation later after watching your cartoons and shopping at your malls and getting free 5-star 4-course meals their children can't imagine life without you.

Anyway, this is when you start dropping in all those transports you built carrying all the supplies you mined while waiting for the Earthlings to figure out that you're in charge and just give up and go home. That's when you start preparing them for the assault to come.

And you remind them how easy it was for you to beat them. Not to make fun of them, but to get them nice and riled up about the guys coming after you.

________________________________

Alternatively?

You could just show up and tell Earth that there's some guys out there who are big jerkoffs and you'll give them big spaceguns if they help you fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMpsAmWbSJg

Telok
2015-04-27, 07:05 PM
Moonbase and sell surface to orbit shipping for half the current rate. Declare the Moon as an independent, neutral, nation. You are now a world economic and military power, do the rest with diplomacy and wealth. If anyone puts up too much fuss you have options like not selling orbital capacity and space to them, offering life extension services (not the tech!) to opposing factions, or just dropping small asteroids on all their military bases.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-27, 09:49 PM
To wage an effective war you first need quality intelligence. The first wave would be scouts and spies sent to reconnaissance our societies, technology, and capabilities.

What's their tech level? If it's high enough they might not even need to attack. All they might need to do is make a demonstration of their superior firepower and then negotiate terms for Earth's surrender. It's not like we have anything that could hurt an alien warship.

They could coordinate their demonstration with infiltrators who have set up cells across the globe to cripple communication/internet nodes, military command structures, and local leadership. Sow enough confusion and chaos and the world is theirs.

Camman1984
2015-04-28, 01:30 AM
Who wants a planet in ruins filled with partisans and rebellious factions? We all know the problems that vastly more powerful countries have in forcefully occupying countries that dont want them there (look at USA versus iraq for a prime example).

if you are evil overlord types then come and infiltrate, if you have mastered interstellar warfare, then infiltration should be easy.

I however am of the 'star trek' mindset that once a civilisation reaches a certain technological level this is also associated with a level of social development which take the desire for war away, there are obviously outliers but most advanced civilisations are friendly. Look at the federation, it is based on earth and controlled mainly by humans, despite the fact that every alien potrayed in the series is faster/stronger/more intelligent than us. They should welcome us into their social/technology club in exchange for then ruling by consent.

if i was going to attack earth though i would attack our potentially biggest flaw, our tendency towards worship. The series V is a great example of this where the evil lizard monsters come a bringers of technology but more inportantly healing of major diseases, leading to many people treating them almost as gods.

Solaris
2015-04-28, 08:23 AM
Who wants a planet in ruins filled with partisans and rebellious factions? We all know the problems that vastly more powerful countries have in forcefully occupying countries that dont want them there (look at USA versus iraq for a prime example).

Don't kid yourself. The rebels die in droves every time they try anything and their only hope for success is to convince the civilians behind the occupying forces that they've lost and to give it up. There's a reason the partisans and various resistance movements in World War II generally failed to accomplish anything major or significant other than giving the Nazis a bullet shortage. They existed more in Allied propaganda than in reality.

Hiryuu has one of the better plans presented so far if we're sticking with the invasion and coercion route. It has an effective counterinsurgent plan, and it takes the Earth with a minimum of fuss. Ideally, the invaders aren't going to be fighting at all; they're going to be persuading the Earthlings to join their side. In all honesty, if there's a hostile force that wiped out their homeworld coming after them, and it's reasonably likely that this force is going to attack Earth as well, it is in Earth's best interest to ally with the invaders against it.

goto124
2015-04-28, 09:54 AM
Apparentally the answer to the thread title is 'don't attack - war wastes a lot of resources and may not work, being friendly goes a long way'.

Lawful Evil for the win!

Segev
2015-04-28, 10:15 AM
War works only two times: When the other side absolutely will not cooperate and must be beaten into submission; and when you have an overwhelming force advantage and don't want to give up anything and don't mind how inefficient your harvest of their stuff is.


The only time I generally condone war as a moral and ethical action is when it is against a foe who is unabashedly out to cause your nation (or her allies) harm.

hiryuu
2015-04-28, 11:11 AM
Ideally, the invaders aren't going to be fighting at all; they're going to be persuading the Earthlings to join their side. In all honesty, if there's a hostile force that wiped out their homeworld coming after them, and it's reasonably likely that this force is going to attack Earth as well, it is in Earth's best interest to ally with the invaders against it.

Really this. Some footage or data records, some free tech, a history record, explanations as to what's going on, and whatever else. It should actually be really easy to convince the Earth-humans of your cause. I mean, it's not like our culture has some kind of almost holy reverence for star treks and space wars.

And blast your media everywhere. It doesn't have to be propaganda. Just let the Earthlings go nowhere without knowing everything there is to know about your culture.

erikun
2015-04-28, 11:32 AM
2) Approach Earth openly as friends and allies. Offer to trade tech for positions of influence in Earthling governments. Don't be subtle; honesty about "we have tech, and we want our own say in how things are governed" is potentially met well.
This could potentially work best, assuming that nobody kicks you out - especially if you manage to get a good media foothold in the country. Pesky diplomat getting in your way? Just broadcast across the media about how much they distruct the technology with game Timmy a working kidney or that ended up cleaning up the factory runoff problem in the local town. Most people in public offices will probably be at least somewhat willing to work with you, when you have potentially massive public support on call.

VoxRationis
2015-04-28, 12:27 PM
Are you kidding? Xenophobia and Luddism are significant social currents, at least in America (and I suspect in other places as well); the latter appears on both sides of the political spectrum* and is likely to reject alien technology.

*Is this getting too into real-world politics? The problem is that this is fundamentally a political question based on Earth, so answering it requires getting into real-world topics; if anyone objects, please kindly ask me to take this down, and I will comply.

Segev
2015-04-28, 01:00 PM
It would probably be easiest to establish themselves on the moon or an uninhabited/uninhabitable portion of the Earth as their own nation, and then trade. The big concerns most nations have about massive immigrant populations coming in all at once is a combination of assimiliation and fear of "takeover."

Even in non-democracies, a massive influx of a single cultural bloc that actually measures near even a plurality can lead to revolution if that bloc is so inclined. And, if they've made friends, they may have more than just themselves fighting on their side for dominance.

In a democracy, the fear is that the new plurality will be so dominant a political factor that it will jar the sensibilities and policies and safeguards built by long tradition into the existing government.

By having their own region, where they govern themselves, there's someplace for them to wait if they want to assimilate with other nations, and someplace for them to congregate without overtly having to risk overwriting local social structures.

While there are luddites everywhere, they are actually only a vocal minority. People love to adopt new technology when it's useful or fun (and especially both). These aliens would not want for trading partners, private and governmental.

VoxRationis
2015-04-28, 01:06 PM
Fun, yes. Useful? Not necessarily. The backlash against GMOs is indicative of this.

Segev
2015-04-28, 01:12 PM
Fun, yes. Useful? Not necessarily. The backlash against GMOs is indicative of this.

Again, a vocal minority. Most people buy them without even thinking about it, and discount the objections as hysterical people looking for a cause.

(Note, I am not making any comment on whether those people are hysterical or the only sane men who know the truth. Just discussing perception from the general population.)

erikun
2015-04-28, 01:21 PM
Fun, yes. Useful? Not necessarily. The backlash against GMOs is indicative of this.
To be fair, there can be other reasons for such a backlash outside distrust of technology.
Such as the GMO holder suing farmers over the results of cross-pollination, but farmers having no such recourse against GMO patent holders (http://rt.com/usa/monsanto-patents-sue-farmers-547/).

Solaris
2015-04-28, 01:52 PM
To be fair, there can be other reasons for such a backlash outside distrust of technology.
Such as the GMO holder suing farmers over the results of cross-pollination, but farmers having no such recourse against GMO patent holders (http://rt.com/usa/monsanto-patents-sue-farmers-547/).

True, but they're a minority in the minority. Many people who protest GMOs think Food Babe is a great source of advice, believe buying 'organic' means something, and think that the reason gluten-free foods make them feel better has anything to do with reality rather than their own minds.

While there'll be some resistance, the preponderance of smart phones and internet access indicates to me that the Luddites aren't nearly as strong as they once were.

Mark Hall
2015-04-28, 03:47 PM
Are you kidding? Xenophobia and Luddism are significant social currents, at least in America (and I suspect in other places as well); the latter appears on both sides of the political spectrum* and is likely to reject alien technology.

*Is this getting too into real-world politics? The problem is that this is fundamentally a political question based on Earth, so answering it requires getting into real-world topics; if anyone objects, please kindly ask me to take this down, and I will comply.

The Mod Wonder: This is vague enough to be ok, but the point is well taken; be careful in your responses, folks.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-28, 09:20 PM
This may be a speciation event. 70,000 years separation from main line Homo sapiens, living on alien worlds with different selection pressures, and having cloning (and gene-modding?) technology -- these Alien Humans may have diverged so much from humanity that they can no longer interbreed with us. If the original population was very small, with not much genetic diversity, it's even more likely.

At the very least they will look very different than most humans on Earth.

Humans colonized Australia about 40,000 years ago and there was likely admixture from Polynesian and other groups over the millennia to maintain gene flow. Even living on the same planet, they developed very distinctive features. Imagine the differences that could arise from living for thousands upon thousands of years with different gravity, plant and animal life, sunlight, atmospheric composition, etc.

GungHo
2015-04-29, 09:00 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not they need the labor on Earth. If no, a pandemic would be a way to weaken the planet without destroying infrastructure. If yes, they will need to infiltrate their way into the political and economic apparatus, as a shooting war would be quite destructive. Even with laser beams and death rays, short of the human aliens having some sort of fantastic exoskeleton, bullets and bombs will still do what they do.

Mastikator
2015-04-29, 11:03 AM
They wouldn't attack, they would buy. They could easily leverage rare earth minerals, science and other stuff completely out of reach for humanity to gain a huge corner of the human industrial marketplace. They could easily "invent" some new piece of technology that they take for granted and use patents to conquer the market. The aliens are thousands of years ahead of humans in every way.

They wouldn't reveal that they are aliens until it's too late, if at all. I mean, they look like humans, why would they ever tell the humans they're actually aliens anyway?

Maglubiyet
2015-04-29, 11:12 AM
I mean, they look like humans, why would they ever tell the humans they're actually aliens anyway?

I think they would definitely stand out as being "from out of town". 70,000 years is a long time for their gene pool to diverge from Earth's humans, especially on an alien planet. They're not going to look like any known ethnic group.

Akisa
2015-04-29, 12:56 PM
This may be a speciation event. 70,000 years separation from main line Homo sapiens, living on alien worlds with different selection pressures, and having cloning (and gene-modding?) technology -- these Alien Humans may have diverged so much from humanity that they can no longer interbreed with us. If the original population was very small, with not much genetic diversity, it's even more likely.

At the very least they will look very different than most humans on Earth.

Humans colonized Australia about 40,000 years ago and there was likely admixture from Polynesian and other groups over the millennia to maintain gene flow. Even living on the same planet, they developed very distinctive features. Imagine the differences that could arise from living for thousands upon thousands of years with different gravity, plant and animal life, sunlight, atmospheric composition, etc.

Well kind of want the Alien to be same species and can still interbreed. But I like the idea that they look different from the most of Earth's population. I was kind of planning on the Aliens attacking, now I'm not so sure due to people believing they shouldn't.

Maglubiyet
2015-04-29, 01:20 PM
Well kind of want the Alien to be same species and can still interbreed. But I like the idea that they look different from the most of Earth's population. I was kind of planning on the Aliens attacking, now I'm not so sure due to people believing they shouldn't.

Of course they can look however you want, don't let me dissuade you! I was pointing out that in that time period they may have diverged quite a bit from the stock population, because that's where my head's at (population genetics was my dissertation topic). But with their cloning and other technology maybe they are able to maintain their original gene pool.

Attacks are more fun from a gaming perspective. How exciting would Halo be if it was just diplomatic and trade negotiations between humans and the Covenant?

It really depends on what type of campaign you want to be running:

cloak and dagger, spy games style where PC's are tracking down alien scouts and infiltrators
shoot-'em-up style where PC's are commandos in a bloody war against a more powerful enemy
diplomatic style where PC's are troubleshooters trying to facilitate an interstellar alliance


etc.

veti
2015-04-29, 03:31 PM
I'm very much of the "why would they want to attack?" school of thinking. "Attacking" sounds pointless.

If they want Earth's "industrial capacity", then peaceful trade is the way to go. It'd be vastly more productive, especially with judicious injections of alien tech.

About the only possible scenario in which "attacking" would be a reasonable course would be: they have an overpopulation problem, and they want to just transplant their own surplus people to Earth. In that case, they'd do it by unleashing a biological weapon that would wipe out all of humanity over a few weeks (or months, or even years - hey, what's the rush?) without anyone on Earth having any clue where it came from. We'd never even know there were any aliens. Just a new killer disease.

Segev
2015-04-29, 04:54 PM
Yeah, the trouble with attacking is that they need a reason to do so. It could be that they're a warrior culture, or that their warrior culture (or a war-like subset thereof) is the group encountering Earth. It could be that there is a Minbari-like misunderstanding at first contact. There just needs to be a reason. The simplest is that they view humanity as backward, primitive near-animals and will just land and say "ours now," enforcing it by shooting any uppity apes which happen to try to object.

The trouble is twofold:

Even colonialist powers encountering highly different-looking ethnicities initially approached with the idea of trade and some level of normalized relations. War only came later, as their cultural aggression (that is, their tendency to spread their culture aggressively and successfully) and their treatment of natives as second-class citizens in their own homeland started upsetting local power balances.
You've specifically established that these aliens want Earth's production capacity. That generally means there is strong impetus to not do harm to it. It's relatively fragile, and it takes great investment to build or even rebuild. Worse, even with modern automization, it still takes literal manpower to run it. Each person you kill in the fighting is one fewer slave or employee working to produce the goods you desire.

I think what you need to do is lay out a bullet-point list of end-goals these aliens have. What is it they want, and why? What will it get them, and what are they willing to give up to get it?

Then, analyze their culture. Whether they're a race of hats, with one monolithic culture, or they're as disparate as Earth's humanity, you should at least know the culture and mind-set of the specific group or groups making contact. An "East India Trading Company" will have a different mindset than an "Oxford Research Team" who will have yet a different mindset from a "Federation Starship Exploratory Vessel" which will have yet another mindset distinct from a "bunch of space pirates."

The Space Pirates, for instance, almost certainly aren't initially interested in the industrial capacity of the planet. They're there for loot. If they determine that they ARE interested in it, it's because they realize they can use it to ramp up their resource acquisition well beyond anything a group of their size and wealth could in a civilized region of space; this is the most likely type of group to launch an assault and war, and they're likely to use terror and suppression tactics to shatter infrastructure of one major power as an example to the others. Then, demand tribute, and declare themselves, if not rulers, at least powers beyond law which can dictate to rulers.

The East India Trading Company sort is the most likely if they really want to use Earth as a basis for goods production. Though if they're on the run as a people, the exploratory vessel might find Earth first. Then whatever Starfleet is behind it would choose a delegation. This becomes "government in exile" seeking a new home and contact. Invasion is a possibility, but again, you have to consider what hteir goals are. Do they really want to destroy the very civilized structures into which they might move? If they can rebuild, why engage in fighting in the first place when they can instead build fresh in uninhabited territory?

This isn't about being "nice," but it is about being both diplomatic and not wasteful. Wasteful of your own ordnance, if not of the prospective resources of the Earthlings.


So if you want them to be attacking, you need to create a reason for them to do so. It has to stem from their motives and their nature. Given that you want them to want Earth's production capacity, that says things about them, and most of those put them at odds with the idea of attacking as a first option. It's not impossible, but you need to have a solid reason why that's what they're doing.