one of the best reasons I've ever heard to play 5e dmd

[CyberThread]

I was playing a pathfinder Sword n Board Paladin that used enlarge person a lot.

I remember a specific battle where I had to try and figure out my attack mod multiple times in a turn because of size, smite, and twf.

One of the attacks was something like 1d20+4+5+3-2-1+1+2-1+3 because of a number of buffs, debuffs, modfiers and other shenanigans.

In 5e, that same attack would just be my [normal] modifier with adv, disadv, or neither.

[Fralex]

Yes. While calculating a huge bonus is fun sometimes, it can get old fast. I, too, like the simplified math in combat.

[The_Ditto]

I like(d) my 3.5 combat spreadsheet :)

[Shining Wrath]

Sigh.

Another player who'd be a better warrior if he was only better at math. :smallbiggrin:

[Mandragola]

Agreed. I've lost count of the number of times people realised they'd have hit, if they hadn't forgotten some buff or other.

I used to run a high-ish level barbarian 1/cleric 11. Once he got his buffs up things got complicated!

[Stan]

Then, on top of all that, you had to take into account that each attack for a higher level character had a different BAB. I like the constant bonus across multiple attacks - bumps noncasters and is simpler. Plus you don't have to worry about only moving 5' if you want more than one attack.

[BRC]

Agreed. I've lost count of the number of times people realised they'd have hit, if they hadn't forgotten some buff or other.

I used to run a high-ish level barbarian 1/cleric 11. Once he got his buffs up things got complicated!
We had a term for this at my old table, the "Walker Bonus", after one of the players (Walker) who was very good at finding those fiddly little +2's that everybody else had missed.

[Chronos]

What's so difficult about 1d20+14? Whenever you get a buff or debuff, you just change the modifier, and then, whatever that modifier is, that's what you use. Do you complain about keeping track of your HP when they're 56 -12 +8 -4 +3 -7 +10? No, because you don't track every wound and healing individually; you just track the total. It's the same process.

[Fralex]

What's so difficult about 1d20+14? Whenever you get a buff or debuff, you just change the modifier, and then, whatever that modifier is, that's what you use. Do you complain about keeping track of your HP when they're 56 -12 +8 -4 +3 -7 +10? No, because you don't track every wound and healing individually; you just track the total. It's the same process.

Well, with HP there isn't any effect that's constantly affecting the total; you don't need to remember everything that caused a change in the number 'cause it's just a one-time thing. With buffs and debuffs, you have to track not just the net modifier to the attack or whatever, but how much of a bonus or reverse... bonus each thing currently affecting you is worth, and under what conditions each one goes away. That can get confusing, especially for modifiers that only briefly apply to you.

[jaydubs]

I think the "eureka" moment for me was when I realized I could run many of my 5e characters entirely off the top of my head, without even referencing a character sheet. Just need like a scrap piece of paper to track HP and maybe a few short/long rest resources.

[Chronos]

Well, with HP there isn't any effect that's constantly affecting the total;...
Aside from damage, which happens far more often than buffs do.

[EvanescentHero]

Aside from damage, which happens far more often than buffs do.

I see you stopped there, but if you keep reading, I think you'll find there was more to the post.

[coredump]

I had not played any RPGs in several years.

I got back into DnD when 5E came out.

Now I am getting back into ShadowRun with their 5E.

Man, talk about completely different ends of the complexity continuum....... SR is the Advanced Squad Leader of RPGs.

[treecko]

Sigh.

Another player who'd be a better warrior if he was only better at math. :smallbiggrin:

So that's why int is the dump stat in 5e. True warriors don't need math!

[Gritmonger]

So that's why int is the dump stat in 5e. True warriors don't need math!

It's not the simple addition and subtraction - as mentioned, it requires a spreadsheet to keep track of bonuses that come and go with various rounds, situational bonuses, buffs, positional bonuses and debuffs, and so-on. So it's more like fighters tend not to take the Profession: "Actuarial or Accountant."

[Safety Sword]

I had not played any RPGs in several years.

I got back into DnD when 5E came out.

Now I am getting back into ShadowRun with their 5E.

Man, talk about completely different ends of the complexity continuum....... SR is the Advanced Squad Leader of RPGs.

Shadowrun 3E was a bigger mess. Literally handfuls of d6s.

[Gritmonger]

Shadowrun 3E was a bigger mess. Literally handfuls of d6s.

First edition. Bowls of d6s. Literal mixing-bowls of d6s.

That was the sound of combat:

"Schwoooosh schwooosh schwooosh SHAKAKKAKAKKCKKAKKCKKAKCKAKCK" *goes on for several minutes, dice are retrieved from the kitchen and the dining room (we were playing on the living room floor)*

[Safety Sword]

First edition. Bowls of d6s. Literal mixing-bowls of d6s.

That was the sound of combat:

"Schwoooosh schwooosh schwooosh SHAKAKKAKAKKCKKAKKCKKAKCKAKCK" *goes on for several minutes, dice are retrieved from the kitchen and the dining room (we were playing on the living room floor)*

I have repressed all memories of 1st edition Shadowrun

[Flashy]

I think the "eureka" moment for me was when I realized I could run many of my 5e characters entirely off the top of my head, without even referencing a character sheet. Just need like a scrap piece of paper to track HP and maybe a few short/long rest resources.

So much this. I've yet to find a character whose vital information didn't fit on a 3x5 notecard.

[DireSickFish]

So much this. I've yet to find a character whose vital information didn't fit on a 3x5 notecard.

My buddy is playing a Paladin 2\ Bard 7\ Warlock 2\ Sorcerer 1

He's got at least 5 note-cards for spells along with his character sheet. It works surprisingly well leaning a lot on eldrich blast and smites. Shield for an insane AC, he's practically unhittable. Granted he made the character with the idea of "hey what if I took all of the classes that used Charisma".

But yes besides those shenanigans it's a very simple system. We've found it hard to remember to roll for concentration sometimes and one DM has completely hand-waved concentration rolls.

[Shining Wrath]

What's so difficult about 1d20+14? Whenever you get a buff or debuff, you just change the modifier, and then, whatever that modifier is, that's what you use. Do you complain about keeping track of your HP when they're 56 -12 +8 -4 +3 -7 +10? No, because you don't track every wound and healing individually; you just track the total. It's the same process.

Let's consider the sources of some of those modifiers.

Did you move more than 30' (Scout)?
Are you within 30' of the target? (Point-blank shot)
Is the target flanked?
Are you invisible?

All 4 of those (plus many more) can change each and every round. Our Pixie Rogue / Fighter gestalt takes a minute or two sometimes figuring out which of her various modifiers apply, because she can have maybe 6 or 7 modifiers depending on circumstances.

[Hawkstar]

Aside from damage, which happens far more often than buffs do.

You'd have a point if temporary HP weren't... ah, this is a mess.

As it is... I think the closest you could get to the insanity of tracking bonuses with hit points in 3.5 would be trying to play some off-the-wall build that's like Barbarian(For temporary CON boosts)/Crusader(For Delayed Damage pool and self-healing)/Sorcerer(for False Life)/Bard(for Inspire Heroics' extra hit dice) against enemies that... are there any enemies that have attacks that only deal temporary damage?

[EvanescentHero]

You'd have a point if temporary HP weren't... ah, this is a mess.

Let's not forget the atrocity of subdual/nonlethal damage.

[Fwiffo86]

What's so difficult about 1d20+14? Whenever you get a buff or debuff, you just change the modifier, and then, whatever that modifier is, that's what you use. Do you complain about keeping track of your HP when they're 56 -12 +8 -4 +3 -7 +10? No, because you don't track every wound and healing individually; you just track the total. It's the same process.

I prefer not having to worry or remember 13 different modifiers to my combat rolls. Too much math, is too much time wasted that could be actual gaming.

[Vogonjeltz]

So much this. I've yet to find a character whose vital information didn't fit on a 3x5 notecard.

That and making a character is about a billion times faster. The most note intensive part of the game so far is writing down all the loot.

[da_chicken]

I was playing a pathfinder Sword n Board Paladin that used enlarge person a lot.

I remember a specific battle where I had to try and figure out my attack mod multiple times in a turn because of size, smite, and twf.

One of the attacks was something like 1d20+4+5+3-2-1+1+2-1+3 because of a number of buffs, debuffs, modfiers and other shenanigans.

In 5e, that same attack would just be my [normal] modifier with adv, disadv, or neither.

In our last 3.5 campaign before 5e, I played a Barbarian 11. One combat, I raged (whirling frenzy), charged, pounced, flanked, and used Power Attack. So, that's +2 to hit, +1 attack, -2 to hit, +2 to hit, +2 attacks one at -5 one at -10, +2 attack, -2 attack. And these were all modifiers from just my character and his own actions. I was so completely sick of recalculating by dang attack bonus 3-4 times every round.

[Chronos]

Quoth fwiffo86:

I prefer not having to worry or remember 13 different modifiers to my combat rolls. Too much math, is too much time wasted that could be actual gaming.
Then don't. Just remember the sum. You only need to keep track of bonus types if you have multiple bonuses with the same types, and why would you do that in the first place?

[Toadkiller]

First edition. Bowls of d6s. Literal mixing-bowls of d6s.

That was the sound of combat:

"Schwoooosh schwooosh schwooosh SHAKAKKAKAKKCKKAKKCKKAKCKAKCK" *goes on for several minutes, dice are retrieved from the kitchen and the dining room (we were playing on the living room floor)*

Why didn't you just use an app on your phone, or tablet? Smart watch even?

/I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

[Gritmonger]

Then don't. Just remember the sum. You only need to keep track of bonus types if you have multiple bonuses with the same types, and why would you do that in the first place?

I think part of it is trying to track that exact information. Depending on the round of combat, bonuses and minuses are popping on and off - it's never a static "+14": it has to be recalculated any time there's a change in the combat calculation. Keeping track of types as well - I don't think that makes it any better.

[Theodoxus]

I've actually gone back to paper sheets - after using Hero Labs for PF on my iPad for a few years. (tracking modifiers is a sinch with the app, but not having mods is better)

Granted, if a decent app came out for 5th, I'd use it - at least for backup, but I've found plenty of decent spreadsheets that take all the grind (what minuscule amount there is) out of generating characters.

[Padoodle]

I love 3.5 but having more than 10 attacks per round, all with varying bonuses, does get tiresome after a while. 5e has its charm, even if I can't (yet) pull off shenanigans like in 3.5.

[huttj509]

Let's not forget the atrocity of subdual/nonlethal damage.

"Ok, I took Con damage...does damage count up, or does HP count down? And does this just stack with the Con drain from earlier?"

[Mandragola]

I did sometimes enjoy the madness of 3.5. One of my favourite fights involved my gnome illusionist, who was about level 12 at the time, up against a baddie gnome illusionist.

We walked into a room and he fired feeblemind at me, but I had put spell turning up so it bounced back at him... and into his rod of absorption. The two of us carried on like this for a fight that continued through his mansion, while the rest of the party fought his minions. Eventually I flew up to him (we we're both flying of course) and used my staff of power to physically smash the rod of absorption out of his hands. I loved the image of two spelled-up gnome wizards falling back on bashing each other with sticks!

He got away though unfortunately. He flew off and put a wall of force in the way, then teleported away after our melee guys wasted a bunch of time running into the wall (before my turn came and I disintegrated it) and trying to grapple him (he had freedom of movement). You can't get the staff!

[Shining Wrath]

I did sometimes enjoy the madness of 3.5. One of my favourite fights involved my gnome illusionist, who was about level 12 at the time, up against a baddie gnome illusionist.

We walked into a room and he fired feeblemind at me, but I had put spell turning up so it bounced back at him... and into his rod of absorption. The two of us carried on like this for a fight that continued through his mansion, while the rest of the party fought his minions. Eventually I flew up to him (we we're both flying of course) and used my staff of power to physically smash the rod of absorption out of his hands. I loved the image of two spelled-up gnome wizards falling back on bashing each other with sticks!

He got away though unfortunately. He flew off and put a wall of force in the way, then teleported away after our melee guys wasted a bunch of time running into the wall (before my turn came and I disintegrated it) and trying to grapple him (he had freedom of movement). You can't get the staff!

I remember a story - it may have been H Beam Piper - where there were people who had mastered telekinesis. At the story's climax, the protagonist (who wanted to teach everyone how to use TK) and the antagonist (who wanted to keep TK tightly held so that he could push people around) were using their minds to try to control a knife to kill one another.

The protagonist won by reaching out his hand, grasping the knife's hilt, and stabbing the baddie in the chest. The baddie had used TK for so long he forgot the knife had a hilt.

[Janthkin]

Let's consider the sources of some of those modifiers.

Did you move more than 30' (Scout)?
Are you within 30' of the target? (Point-blank shot)
Is the target flanked?
Are you invisible?

All 4 of those (plus many more) can change each and every round. Our Pixie Rogue / Fighter gestalt takes a minute or two sometimes figuring out which of her various modifiers apply, because she can have maybe 6 or 7 modifiers depending on circumstances.Did you remember the bonus for higher ground? Bless? The Bard's Heroic Inspiration?

No, wait - the Bard song doesn't stack with Bless....

And heaven help you if the enemy tossed a Dispel at you, and only caught SOME of your buffs.

[XmonkTad]

Managing my Spellbook has gotten tons easier, but that might change with supplements.

[SouthpawSoldier]

What I love about 5e is the low learning curve.

My intro to actual play was 3.5. I was familiar with the material and FR books, but 3.5 was the first system I actually played. I hated it. The specificity of the rules was nice, except when Rule 0'd away. But the sheer amount of rules, spells, supplements, etc was overwhelming to a new player. Especially once I discovered the forum, and read about Codzilla, Flurry of Misses, Batman Wizard, and such. The time spent researching and the Lego class building made chargen take hours.

With 5e, it feels smoother. It's designed to be tinkered with. I'm working on homebrew race and a homebrew class, and it's coming together so easily compared to the work that went into 3.5 homebrew.