Attacking while prone with crossbow

[RabidBadger31]

So I haven't played since 2e and I'm trying to run a new 5e campaign. It's good to be back. One of my players is a former Marine. He plays a human fighter/rogue with the crossbow expertise. Still low level and I ambush them with a group of goblin bowmen. He immidiatly falls prone and directs the rest of the party to do so also. A sound tactic because now all the goblins are attacking with disadvantage due to the ranged weapons vs prone. Then he wants to return fire with his heavy crossbow while prone. The rules say no right? But he demonstrated in real life on my floor how it would work and I have to admit it was quite convincing, and the rest of the players fully supported it. So I allowed it, but I'm worried I may have opened up a new exploit. Any ideas?

[VoxRationis]

Reloading any but the weakest of crossbows usually entails standing, to my knowledge. Even versions using cranequins would be difficult to brace with one hand and crank with the other. (The repeating crossbow, by the way, is significantly weaker than most.) There's nothing wrong with him getting a shot off from safety; he still has to make himself vulnerable if he wants to reload, or at least you could rule it that way.

[coredump]

I agree with Vox. I would allow him to fire while prone, but not reload. It is also harder to find your target while prone, and they are more likely to get a cover save.

[Magic Myrmidon]

It's not even that crazy to allow, really. Because DnD characters are fantasy heroes. They can do things that real people cannot. Reloading a crossbow while prone is probably the smallest stretch I can imagine when thinking that way.

Also, 5e is really trying to simplify things. If he takes the actions he needs to to reload, then he can do it. I don't think the rules say otherwise. Furthermore, if he has crossbow expertise, he doesn't even have to take an action to reload. That's already unrealistic, since it certainly takes a significant amount of time to reload a crossbow in real life.

Finally, it's unlikely to really cause problems in the game. For one, sure, he has a good defense against other ranged enemies when he is shooting. However, if there's melee enemies, he has to consider them, because they're at an advantage. He'll also need to take actions to get up from prone if he has to reposition. Really, it's just smart fighting, no need to shut it down.

[Gritmonger]

Agreed with "let it be" - Range from prone only would have disadvantage on other prone enemies, or enemies with cover or concealment. That is going to come up next, you realize. He's going to want to pop out from cover, shoot, and go back to cover, especially if you rule that he has to stand up to reload.

Oddly enough, staying at range and using tactics has worked for the players at my table so far. After a too-close encounter with an Ochre Jelly, they approached areas cautiously, stayed at range, only pulled out the melee when it was obvious enemy was too close. It's worked so far -might not work so well in a hallway, but then - real world tactics are real world tactics because even at this level of abstraction, there is some utility to them.

Now, unless his character is a former soldier or veteran of mass combat, I'd only question OOC knowledge being used IC.

[SharkForce]

i don't think "smaller targets are hard to hit" is OOC knowledge for anyone proficient with any sort of ranged weapon, and that's really all you're doing is giving your enemy a smaller target to hit.

[Draken]

So I haven't played since 2e and I'm trying to run a new 5e campaign. It's good to be back. One of my players is a former Marine. He plays a human fighter/rogue with the crossbow expertise. Still low level and I ambush them with a group of goblin bowmen. He immidiatly falls prone and directs the rest of the party to do so also. A sound tactic because now all the goblins are attacking with disadvantage due to the ranged weapons vs prone. Then he wants to return fire with his heavy crossbow while prone. The rules say no right? But he demonstrated in real life on my floor how it would work and I have to admit it was quite convincing, and the rest of the players fully supported it. So I allowed it, but I'm worried I may have opened up a new exploit. Any ideas?

Rules cover this fairly simply. He is prone and has disadvantage on all attacks while in that state.

Don't forget that despite the character having gone prone of his own volition, he is not crouching on the floor, he is belly down on the ground and aiming at anything while in that position is quite literally a pain the neck. Very good defensively, sure, but has its offensive disadvantages.

Of course, he can just stand up and plop down again to avoid the disadvantage. But this is why you also add goblins with melee weapons to the encounter. They either sit back to protect the archers or close in on the enemies that have been pinned down by suppressive fire!

[Gritmonger]

i don't think "smaller targets are hard to hit" is OOC knowledge for anyone proficient with any sort of ranged weapon, and that's really all you're doing is giving your enemy a smaller target to hit.

It's not immediately obvious - dropping when shots are fired is an instinct that has to be developed compared to the natural ones of looking around for the source of the noise, or running full bore away, or worse still freezing in place. Hence training. Those seconds you spent parsing it out that it's probably the thing to do may be the ones in which an enemy is already drawing a bead on you.

[SharkForce]

It's not immediately obvious - dropping when shots are fired is an instinct that has to be developed compared to the natural ones of looking around for the source of the noise, or running full bore away, or worse still freezing in place. Hence training. Those seconds you spent parsing it out that it's probably the thing to do may be the ones in which an enemy is already drawing a bead on you.

sure, hence why you don't get to do it as a reaction, you get to do it as a part of your turn.

@ draken: firing from a prone position with a crossbow wouldn't be that bad. if nothing else, you'll be much more stable.

[Ralanr]

He's got crossbow expert and a crossbow just need a pulled trigger to fire. It works fine and there are always punishments for when people abuse tricks over and over, like giving disadvantage on dex saves (AFB, don't remember all of prone).

Can't imagine people are shooting cantrips, arrows or throwing weapons from that position.

I'm pretty much imagining a crossbow as a single shot rifle in practice.

[Eisenheim]

I'd like to suggest a reason for discouraging this behavior, which may or may not matter to you, and really depends on your game world and style.

It's off Genre.

Coming from a more narrativist perspective, tactically dropping prone just doesn't fit the heroic fantasy feel to me. This may or may not be something relevant for your game, but it's worth considering. How does this sort of gritty tactical combat square with kind of story your group is trying to build?

[Person_Man]

I'd allow it. Just make it clear that if this is the reasonable/optimal way to make ranged attacks, intelligent enemies are likely to use the same tactics.

[pibby]

I wouldn't let the game's balance reasons get in the way of how anyone understands a similar situation in real life. However if you allow the party to fire a crossbow while prone without penalty, it then needs to become a universal rule that the monsters can use as well. Combat will be much longer if the party and the monsters decide to have an ol' fashioned shootout while using this rule but there are other alternative tactics that the monsters can use as well.

If the monsters are smart enough they will use their turns in combat to dodge and move closer to the party while ending their turn in cover, and continue to do so until they are within charge range of the party. If the combat takes place in an open field don't mindlessly send your monsters running across the field letting bolts rain upon them unless it would be in character for them to do so. In that case just don't have them approach and have them run away if appropriate. If the party decides to chase the experience bags that would mean the party is not prone. If they decide to get up from prone, chase, and then drop to prone at the end of turn then that means the party will never catch up with the monsters, thus losing out on experience.

[rpavlicek]

So I haven't played since 2e and I'm trying to run a new 5e campaign. It's good to be back. One of my players is a former Marine. He plays a human fighter/rogue with the crossbow expertise. Still low level and I ambush them with a group of goblin bowmen. He immidiatly falls prone and directs the rest of the party to do so also. A sound tactic because now all the goblins are attacking with disadvantage due to the ranged weapons vs prone. Then he wants to return fire with his heavy crossbow while prone. The rules say no right? But he demonstrated in real life on my floor how it would work and I have to admit it was quite convincing, and the rest of the players fully supported it. So I allowed it, but I'm worried I may have opened up a new exploit. Any ideas?

The rules don't prevent you from attacking while prone, but it does have disadvantages (p106 of the free basic rules):



Prone
• A prone creature’s only movement option is to crawl,
unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
• The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.
• An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the
attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise,
the attack roll has disadvantage.

[Easy_Lee]

I would think that ranged attacks while prone would have disadvantage due to a reduced ability to aim. Notably, this is not true of rifles in the real world, and could conceivably be a benefit of the crossbow weapon class.

I'd say it's fine for crossbows only, but would whip out some crossbow mooks to abuse it right back at the players if needed.

[Giant2005]

I would think that ranged attacks while prone would have disadvantage due to a reduced ability to aim. Notably, this is not true of rifles in the real world, and could conceivably be a benefit of the crossbow weapon class.

I'd say it's fine for crossbows only, but would whip out some crossbow mooks to abuse it right back at the players if needed.

Being prone definitely reduces your ability to aim a rifle in the real world. It lowers both your mobility and field of view. It is just that the benefits tend to outweigh the costs but the main benefit (a lower center of gravity to help deal with kickback) isn't something that is as relevant on a crossbow which has a far reduced kickback anyway. With a crossbow, you are getting all of the penalties to your accuracy and the singular bonus to that accuracy is non-existent.

[Easy_Lee]

Being prone definitely reduces your ability to aim a rifle in the real world. It lowers both your mobility and field of view. It is just that the benefits tend to outweigh the costs but the main benefit (a lower center of gravity to help deal with kickback) isn't something that is as relevant on a crossbow which has a far reduced kickback anyway. With a crossbow, you are getting all of the penalties to your accuracy and the singular bonus to that accuracy is non-existent.

The kickback on a rifle us inconsequential. Laying down with it helps you aim by steadying your body. It may or may not be a good move depending on the situation, but a gun's kick is not a factor.

[Giant2005]

The kickback on a rifle us inconsequential. Laying down with it helps you aim by steadying your body. It may or may not be a good move depending on the situation, but a gun's kick is not a factor.

Steadying your body is a fair point that would benefit the crossbowman just as much as the rifleman but even that is less useful at crossbow ranges. Also, the kickback on a rifle is far from inconsequential.

[Shining Wrath]

As Person Man and Easy Lee have stated, the best response to plausible good ideas from PCs is NPCs having the same thought. In this case, though, the PCs are likely to have easy counters, such as AoE spells.

[Person_Man]

If Gary Gygax were alive (and it seems odd that he didn't set up a Contingency spell to prevent his death, so maybe he is), I'm sure he'd want us to create and use a Crossbow Kickback Effect While Prone Chart that we could use to account for the effects of firing a crossbow in this situation. (And it would use a percentile die to determine the result!) But since we can probably all agreed that accounting for every real life consequence in D&D is not a good idea, I think it would be best to just use the fairly reasonable RAW, or if the player strongly feels differently about it, just accept the player's house rule and use it against them from time to time as several of us have suggested above.

[Shining Wrath]

If Gary Gygax were alive (and it seems odd that he didn't set up a Contingency spell to prevent his death, so maybe he is), I'm sure he'd want us to create and use a Crossbow Kickback Effect While Prone Chart that we could use to account for the effects of firing a crossbow in this situation. (And it would use a percentile die to determine the result!) But since we can probably all agreed that accounting for every real life consequence in D&D is not a good idea, I think it would be best to just use the fairly reasonable RAW, or if the player strongly feels differently about it, just accept the player's house rule and use it against them from time to time as several of us have suggested above.

But ... but ... but ...

I thought you were Gygax's clone ...

[Magic Myrmidon]

Clones may be the exact same in terms of genetics, but as they experience different events, they'll be sure to have different opinions. :smalltongue:

[rpavlicek]

See bold quoted text:



-snip-

Finally, it's unlikely to really cause problems in the game. For one, sure, he has a good defense against other ranged enemies when he is shooting. However, if there's melee enemies, he has to consider them, because they're at an advantage. He'll also need to take actions to get up from prone if he has to reposition. Really, it's just smart fighting, no need to shut it down.

The rules state the attacker has to be within 5' -- nothing is mentioned about melee vs ranged attacks. I agree most attacks at 5' will be melee, but it seems that if you're shooting up close (and don't have disadvantage due to firing in close combat because of feats), then you would have advantage. On the other side of the coin, making a melee attack with reach (10'+) would still have disadvantage.

[Forrestfire]

This honestly seems like just the sort of situation that the Advantage rules are made for. He's got Disadvantage on attacks from being prone, but it doesn't affect the shots a huge amount and you're shooting back just fine (maybe better, since they don't have full vision of you). Give Advantage for that, and it cancels the Disadvantage from prone and he can shoot normally.

[Magic Myrmidon]

See bold quoted text:



The rules state the attacker has to be within 5' -- nothing is mentioned about melee vs ranged attacks. I agree most attacks at 5' will be melee, but it seems that if you're shooting up close (and don't have disadvantage due to firing in close combat because of feats), then you would have advantage. On the other side of the coin, making a melee attack with reach (10'+) would still have disadvantage.

The ranged bit seems right. The melee at 10 ft bit... well, it seems to be the RAW. Seems rather silly, though.

[Vogonjeltz]

So I haven't played since 2e and I'm trying to run a new 5e campaign. It's good to be back. One of my players is a former Marine. He plays a human fighter/rogue with the crossbow expertise. Still low level and I ambush them with a group of goblin bowmen. He immidiatly falls prone and directs the rest of the party to do so also. A sound tactic because now all the goblins are attacking with disadvantage due to the ranged weapons vs prone. Then he wants to return fire with his heavy crossbow while prone. The rules say no right? But he demonstrated in real life on my floor how it would work and I have to admit it was quite convincing, and the rest of the players fully supported it. So I allowed it, but I'm worried I may have opened up a new exploit. Any ideas?

The disadvantage to attacking while prone (which means front side down), is reflective of the reduced view and lack of range of motion. It's fine if you're target shooting, but in an actual combat with a melee weapon or a crossbow? Severely degraded ability to hit a target.


The kickback on a rifle us inconsequential. Laying down with it helps you aim by steadying your body. It may or may not be a good move depending on the situation, but a gun's kick is not a factor.

It makes it marginally easier to steady but the reduced range of motion more than makes up for it from a close combat perspective. I'd definitely entertain the argument for giving advantage to modern weapons for a trained shooter while prone at longer ranges (i.e. 300 yards).

[VoxRationis]

Yeah, relative ranges are important. I foolishly assumed that the goblins were attacking at a range such that this behavior would be reasonable, and that they didn't have the high ground, but those seem like poor assumptions. Could we get clarification on terrain, please?

[RulesJD]

Steadying your body is a fair point that would benefit the crossbowman just as much as the rifleman but even that is less useful at crossbow ranges. Also, the kickback on a rifle is far from inconsequential.

For bolt action or various other single shot rifles (most accurate to a crossbow), it is absolutely inconsequential. The bullet has already left the rifle before any recoil can be perceived. Watch any number of slow motion videos to see this.

[Giant2005]

For bolt action or various other single shot rifles (most accurate to a crossbow), it is absolutely inconsequential. The bullet has already left the rifle before any recoil can be perceived. Watch any number of slow motion videos to see this.

I watched a slow motion video right now and it isn't supporting your statement and to be honest, I feel a little foolish for doing so. Even if it did look like recoil was having no effect, that would have more to do with our eyes not having enough of a zoom capability to notice the minute details. As soon as the gunpowder is ignited, a powerful reverse force is instantly generated which causes the kickback. For that kickback to have no effect on the projectile, that projectile would have to travel the distance of the barrel and leave the weapon instantly. That projectile would literally have to teleport.

[Easy_Lee]

I watched a slow motion video right now and it isn't supporting your statement and to be honest, I feel a little foolish for doing so. Even if it did look like recoil was having no effect, that would have more to do with our eyes not having enough of a zoom capability to notice the minute details. As soon as the gunpowder is ignited, a powerful reverse force is instantly generated which causes the kickback. For that kickback to have no effect on the projectile, that projectile would have to travel the distance of the barrel and leave the weapon instantly. That projectile would literally have to teleport.

The bullet isn't in the barrel long enough to have a noticeable impact over a reasonable distance. This is particularly true of rifles, which don't tend to kick upwards as much as a handgun. They're designed for the kick to go straight back, meaning it won't affect the trajectory. And even with a handgun, while a heavier bullet will strike higher on a target due to kick, it still hits the target.

For reference on rifles, here's a full auto in slow motion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD7pd03L43k

As you can see, the bullet has left the barrel long before the kick happens, and the gun's movement has more to do with the person holding it than the kick.

[zinycor]

In the end the answer is simple, if that makes sense for you and the players let it be so :D.

Just remember that enemies npc can do that too, and you are golden

[Easy_Lee]

In the end the answer is simple, if that makes sense for you and the players let it be so :D.

Just remember that enemies npc can do that too, and you are golden

Yep, I agree. Might be fun to make them actually lie on the ground and RP it, just for a laugh.

[RulesJD]

I watched a slow motion video right now and it isn't supporting your statement and to be honest, I feel a little foolish for doing so. Even if it did look like recoil was having no effect, that would have more to do with our eyes not having enough of a zoom capability to notice the minute details. As soon as the gunpowder is ignited, a powerful reverse force is instantly generated which causes the kickback. For that kickback to have no effect on the projectile, that projectile would have to travel the distance of the barrel and leave the weapon instantly. That projectile would literally have to teleport.

Please just accept the fact that you're wrong, it will save us all a lot of time. The energy transfer imparted into the weight of the rifle and the shooter takes time to change the state of the rifle barrel. That time is greater than the time needed for the bullet to exit the rifle. In a single shot situation, the recoil of the rifle has 0 impact on the bullet due to the both the aforementioned momentum problem and direction of the recoil (directly opposite of the direction of the bullet, not upwards as you perceive it).