Boss: Mirror Match

[Captain Kablam]

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/steven-universe/images/2/2e/Lapis_Gem_Clones.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141010031013

For a dungeon I got set up the end boss is copies of the players themselves. However, matching them hit die for hit die means the lead up dungeon is a breeze, not keen on that.

So I was wondering if there was any precedent for this? Like a monster that can fake it on the cheap, or possibly a shared hit pool (though I can see that going poorly if they figure it out and gang up on the lowest ac guy). Any suggestions?

[Lentrax]

Question: Why would it necessarily have to be a breeze? Frankly, the entire dungeon is supposed to be challenging, and if you really want to challenge the PCs, give them copies of themselves, but advance it a couple of levels because, well, boss fight. Add a couple HD, boost the BAB.

Challenge them through the entire thing, adding in a couple monsters that can polymorph themselves or something, a very subtle hint about the end.

But my point is, tht the heores should not feel cheapened by a faked out Water Temple. give them a real dungeon, a real boss, and a real reason to press the attack so they can do whatever they were supposed to do there.

[Captain Kablam]

Encounter rules. Essentially a dungeon is one drawn out encounter. So having a slog and then having to fight themselves, bright eyed and bushytailed while they're spell starved and damaged would be unfair. There's a challenge, then there's a chore.

[Afgncaap5]

I've seen a lot of takes on that idea. My suggestion is to figure out a lot of the base stats needed... HP, HD, AC, Fort, Ref, Will, a couple signature spells or moves where applicable... and have them be generic members of the right classes, and then throw in a twist. A few levels higher isn't a bad idea usually, though that can strain the credibility a bit...

What if they all charge the wrong members of the party, but all the damage they receive is dealt to the person they're duplicating as well as to themselves? So, if the party wizard does 5 damage to the mirror fighter, it also does 5 damage to the party fighter as the damage mirrors itself? It'd take the players by surprise, but wouldn't be *too* hard to figure out unless the party wizard is quick to drop an insta-death spell of some sort.

[Lentrax]

Encounter rules. Essentially a dungeon is one drawn out encounter. So having a slog and then having to fight themselves, bright eyed and bushytailed while they're spell starved and damaged would be unfair. There's a challenge, then there's a chore.

So its a one shot dungeon. That does change things then. Usually my dungeons are not just as you put it, one drawn out encounter. Mine are a series of encounters, followed by places they can gain a respite, then trek on for the next series of encounters. Depending on the length of the place, there may even be somewhere they can gain enough of a rest to regain spells or turn abilities, or other daily use abilities.

[Eno Remnant]

Encounter rules. Essentially a dungeon is one drawn out encounter. So having a slog and then having to fight themselves, bright eyed and bushytailed while they're spell starved and damaged would be unfair. There's a challenge, then there's a chore.

Um, no. Just... no.

In a dungeon, players are no longer constrained by day and night. They are instead constrained by their abilities per day and hit points. As such, when the party casters run low on spells, they sleep while the rest of the party keeps watch. When everyone's running low on HP, down some potions, cast some healing spells, and then if it's still needed the party naps while the one with the most HP left keeps watch.

A dungeon can be as long or as short as the party makes it. It is certainly not just one big encounter. If your players are acting like it is, or you're pushing them to treat it as such, it's not being done right.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

[Captain Kablam]

A dungeon can be as long or as short as the party makes it. It is certainly not just one big encounter. If your players are acting like it is, or you're pushing them to treat it as such, it's not being done right.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

I thought part of the beauty of this game was that there was no "right" or "wrong" way to do things. But moving along, I'm just going by how experience is doled out on a dungeon to dungeon basis. And I've never been keen on the idea of sleeping in enemy territory. I mean if I were the BBEG, I'd definitely look into why there are fewer guards about, and upon seeing a bunch of sleeping heroes, rally my forces and stomp them before they get their strength back. But that's another discussion for another thread entirely.

[the_david]

If you'll match them level for level the encounter will be 4 levels higher than the party level.

I'd give them a moment to take a breather before the boss battle. Alternatively, if it's a mirror of opposition kind of thing put it at the entrance of the dungeon and let them use guerilla tactics. Hmm, what else do we got? Simulacrum, but make it 2 for each PC? That could work, depending on the party level. Some kind of shadow conjuration maybe?

[Troacctid]

If you'll match them level for level the encounter will be 4 levels higher than the party level.

Which is as it should be, of course. Boss encounters are supposed to be higher-level than the players, or else they wouldn't be challenging.

[Kraken]

In terms of how to justify the PCs leveling up mid-dungeon, have the encounter be a somewhat customized trap version of the ice assassin spell (Frostburn). Then you'll need to armor the ice assassins up with equipment. Equipment will make a big impact here, both thematically and in terms of loot. If you want them to be totally the same in terms of class abilities, feats, and so forth, equipment can still provide a meaningful way to up the difficulty if you give the adversaries better equipment than the PCs.

[Troacctid]

Oh, I guess since no one mentioned it, the mirror of opposition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition) is a thing. But make sure it's fixed to the wall if you use it--can't have the players picking it up and walking away with a free 92,000 gp magic item.

[Eldariel]

One of my favorite monsters ever is the Phane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane), which can do something of the sort. Mirror of Opposition is the other obvious solution, as suggested before.

[Crake]

Oh, I guess since no one mentioned it, the mirror of opposition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition) is a thing. But make sure it's fixed to the wall if you use it--can't have the players picking it up and walking away with a free 92,000 gp magic item.

Depending on their level, why not? That could quite easily be the loot for the dungeon after all? divided by 4, that's 23,000gp per person, halved since they'll likely sell it to buy stuff, so about 11,500gp each, that's a pretty decent loot haul for a group of mid level adventurers, but not exactly overwhelming. Now if they strap the mirror to a tower shield and start using it offensively, that's when you'll need to have an enemy come along and sunder it, all good things and what not.

[ace rooster]

The generally regarded as silly mirror mephit could make things fun as a baddie, particularly if the dungeon lasts several days. You could modify it to be able to do it's thing several times a day, but not have the similacra last longer than a couple of days to make things interesting. The first encounters can be enemies all trying to grab a hair from the characters, and then retreating. Retreaving a hair allows the mephit to make a duplicate, which reveals the strengths and weaknesses of each build, as well as providing minions to attack the party with. They are comparitively low level, so if you go this way you don't have to make them the boss encounter, but for kicks you can include a couple in just about every encounter in the dungeon. The second last boss could be a permanent similacrum of something like a dragon, before finally facing the big bad and the mephit.

Basically, instead of limiting it to the boss, why not have the whole dungeon themed like that? Throw in some effigies as well for good measure, and you can make a whole madam tussauds dungeon.

[Brendanicus]

Oh, I guess since no one mentioned it, the mirror of opposition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition) is a thing. But make sure it's fixed to the wall if you use it--can't have the players picking it up and walking away with a free 92,000 gp magic item.Bonus points if the mirror can spam somehow really weak clones of the party. Imagine the looks on your player's faces after winning a hard-fought battle against a super high-level version of one of the characters, only for a swarm of clones to bust out of the walls and overwhelm them.

[Captain Kablam]

Oh, I guess since no one mentioned it, the mirror of opposition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mirrorofOpposition) is a thing.

I like this, it's everything I wanted, since it does match the players for all damage recieved up to that point and spell expenditure. However the problem is that it's the mirror doing all the work. How do I award xp for an item? I could simply allot it for a monster who'd have the money for it, but even going double standard would give them a crazy amount of xp, especially if I go to match not just them, but minions too. Plus there's still the rest of the dungeon to contend with.

[Eldariel]

I like this, it's everything I wanted, since it does match the players for all damage recieved up to that point and spell expenditure. However the problem is that it's the mirror doing all the work. How do I award xp for an item? I could simply allot it for a monster who'd have the money for it, but even going double standard would give them a crazy amount of xp, especially if I go to match not just them, but minions too. Plus there's still the rest of the dungeon to contend with.

Give XP for the challenge they overcame; if they beat themselves, give them XP equal to beating a party of creatures with their ECL and equipment (generally means +1 for PCs). It's fairly trivial, all things considered. You can also ad hoc it, but I'd default to about CR = ECL + 5 reward for a party of 4. Then give XP separately for all other encounters in the dungeon (or sum it all up, as long as the instances are calculated separately, that makes no difference except in the "when").

[Captain Kablam]

A theme I keep seeing is giving them a breather, making it effectively two separate encounters and I think it'll solve my problem nicely. However, still not keen on players just setting up tents and a campfire in the villain's rumpus room. However, I could just make it so that the process, or whatever, of cloning them returns them to their peak. Do it in a way that doesn't necessarily scream "Hey everyone, this is the boss battle!".

[Eldariel]

A theme I keep seeing is giving them a breather, making it effectively two separate encounters and I think it'll solve my problem nicely. However, still not keen on players just setting up tents and a campfire in the villain's rumpus room. However, I could just make it so that the process, or whatever, of cloning them returns them to their peak. Do it in a way that doesn't necessarily scream "Hey everyone, this is the boss battle!".

Separate encounters doesn't necessarily mean they need to get to rest. It's pretty normal to run through a dungeon, beat N CR X encounters and then face a CR X+4 boss battle - eminently doable for the party (especially if well-provisioned) and makes for some attrition meaning they can't engage the final boss in its peak form (remember, Mirror copies them as they are so this isn't as bad as it might seem).

[Hiro Quester]

A game we played a few years back the DM Had, in the penultimate battle, the boss defend himself with a mirror of opposition, but with a twist. After along dungeon crawl, conserving resources as best we could, it became a player vs player thing, as each player was assaulted by a mirror version of another player (in their resource-depleted state, too), transported into a large room to battle until only one remained.

The DM made each player play the mirror version of ourselves, fighting one of our teammates (we knew our best tactics and spell options better than he did). DM promised players only that the game would be most fun if we gave our best fight when playing our evil twins against other party members. It was rather fun, settling arguments about how awesome a particular build was.

The room we were locked in cast a heal spell on the one who emerged.

A couple of PCs died. At the end though, each player had either the original or a mirror opposite of their character alive . I don't recall how DM managed to make that work out. (Except for the wizard. Both of him survived, but only because the defeated but not yet dead PC version's instant refuge spell kicked in, teleporting him back to the Cleric's church to be healed. DM ruled that some divine force stopped him teleporting back in time to do anything.)

Then the DM had the boss use some kind of mind control device that backfired on him. It was supposed to be a mass dominate effect, controlling the party, but DM made it backfire (sabotaged by an NPC friend of the party he'd captured earlier that we were trying to rescue).

The device instead United us as a group (mirror opposites resenting him for creating them, and siding against his evil objective). We all united to defeat him and his underlings.

So some players both had their PC martyred for the cause in the PvP battle, and yet still got to participate in the final boss battle as their mirror double, converted to our cause.

It wasavery fun and memorable capstone to the adventure.

(BTW, after all was done, the wizard teamed up with his double to start a magic "consulting business".)

[Magma Armor0]

Depending on their level, why not? That could quite easily be the loot for the dungeon after all? divided by 4, that's 23,000gp per person, halved since they'll likely sell it to buy stuff, so about 11,500gp each, that's a pretty decent loot haul for a group of mid level adventurers, but not exactly overwhelming. Now if they strap the mirror to a tower shield and start using it offensively, that's when you'll need to have an enemy come along and sunder it, all good things and what not.

Why would you sell an item that can almost singlehandedly win you every encounter ever? "Okay, the BBEG now has to fight himself, but LG, AND the entire party." sure, you need the party fighter to carry around the big mirror (it's probably heavy) but losing 1 mundane party member for the first round of each fight to gain a permanent (enough) copy of your enemy seems really, really good.

[Hiro Quester]

Why would you sell an item that can almost singlehandedly win you every encounter ever? "Okay, the BBEG now has to fight himself, but LG, AND the entire party." sure, you need the party fighter to carry around the big mirror (it's probably heavy) but losing 1 mundane party member for the first round of each fight to gain a permanent (enough) copy of your enemy seems really, really good.

Metagame: because every big encounter beginning with the DM battling himself almost to death, then just cleaning up might be effective, but it isn't much fun for the players who want to have fun rising to a difficult challenge and seeing/showing what their PC can do to help win.

[DarkSonic1337]

Come to think of it if my party had to fight a copy ourselves we'd be kinda screwed. Not because we'd have trouble dealing with each others' offensive tactics, but because the enemy would have the same escape plans that we do and it would become a matter of tracking each other down, except we have missions to accomplish other than hunting ourselves down and would be more likely to be found and ambushed by the enemy as a result.

[mastermisha1]

Formidable Opposition (Book of challenges pg 76)
not quite a true copy of the players but a good way to mess with experienced players who are versed in the mirror of opposition.
Also leads up to just the idea of dopplegangers who are close enough to copying the players.