Will-saves against things that aren't mind-affecting/glammer/figment/enchantment

[Jowgen]

So the vast majority of things that require will-saves are mind-affecting. Glammers and Figments notably aren't. Some enchantment effects (I think like 30?) aren't either.

What I would like to ask is, what note-able things are there that require will-saves but are none of the above? :smallconfused:

[ben-zayb]

So the vast majority of things that require will-saves are mind-affecting. Glammers and Figments notably aren't. Some enchantment effects (I think like 30?) aren't either.

What I would like to ask is, what note-able things are there that require will-saves but are none of the above? :smallconfused:

The ones I'm most familiar with are related to time/dimension travel such as [Teleportation] spells and Psychoportation powers. Another one possibly related is Magic Jar.

Inflict spells also offer Will half IIRC

[ShurikVch]

24 hours in Baleful Polymorph
Hit of Blade of Pain and Fear
Wall of Pain spell
Intellect Bomb psionic power

CFs:
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine: Purify Soul (to cure depravity)
Tainted Scholar: Will save to advance in any other class

[Werephilosopher]

Great thunderclap forces all three saves against three different effects. The Will save is to avoid being stunned.

[Aracor]

Slow spell is another notable one.

[Zaq]

Glitterdust is the biggest one that leaps to mind.

[Barstro]

So the vast majority of things that require will-saves are mind-affecting. Glammers and Figments notably aren't.:

How are they not? Despite the fact that they "enter" through the eyes, ears, nose, they still affect the brain to make it perceive something that isn't there or isn't true.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How are they not? Despite the fact that they "enter" through the eyes, ears, nose, they still affect the brain to make it perceive something that isn't there or isn't true.

A figment creates false sensations, like light, sound and/or smell. It doesn't affect a creature directly, it creates an effect that is picked up by the subjects normal senses. Things like Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Ghost Sound or Mirror Image are figments.

A glamer changes the target's sensory quality to make it seem like something else. Again, it doesn't affect the fooled creatures directly so it's not mind-affecting. Invisibility, Disguise Self and Silence are examples of glamers.

[Twilightwyrm]

The "Holy Word" type alignment based spells all require will saves for outsiders to avoid being forced off the plane. Similarly, the "Holy Smite" type alignment based spells call for will saves for half damage and avoiding blindness.

Bestow Curse and Undeath to Death, both Necromancy spells, requires a will save.

All of the cure/inflict lines of spells require will saves to avoid their effects (generally in the case that you would be damaged by them).

Finally, most divination spells that allow a save call for Will saves.

Additionally, it should be noted that a large amount of "buff" spells like Fly, Invisibility, Bull's Strength etc. all call for will saves to avoid, although this is generally a "Harmless" spell.

[The Viscount]

Fear effects and spells require will saves, but are generally necromancy for...some reason.

[Telonius]

Fear effects and spells require will saves, but are generally necromancy for...some reason.

Fear's effects mostly deal with running away, and Necromancy deals with life and death. At least one famous Wizzard of Discworld would be completely clear on the connection between the two. :smallbiggrin:

[Barstro]

It doesn't affect a creature directly, it creates an effect that is picked up by the subjects normal senses.

We agree with everything except the final conclusion.:smallbiggrin:

If we go your route (not wrong, just a different interpretation than I have), then anything an Bard does can be added to the list.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Fear effects and spells require will saves, but are generally necromancy for...some reason.
Fear effects are always mind-affecting though, so they're outside the scope of what the OP asked for.


We agree with everything except the final conclusion.:smallbiggrin:

If we go your route (not wrong, just a different interpretation than I have), then anything an Bard does can be added to the list.

It's not really a matter of interpretation, seeing how figments have AC.


Figment
...
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Something that has AC can't be a mental effect, since you can't attack those. Figments are the classic false wall or "cover a pit trap" illusions, basically magical holograms.

[Thurbane]

Glitterdust is the biggest one that leaps to mind.

This..............

[Psyren]

Some enchantment effects (I think like 30?) aren't either.

Really? I thought all enchantments were mind-affecting even if they lack the tag.


How are they not? Despite the fact that they "enter" through the eyes, ears, nose, they still affect the brain to make it perceive something that isn't there or isn't true.

They don't act upon your mind directly though - as evidenced by the fact that they even work on creatures without minds. The will save is more to realize something their senses are picking up is out of place or doesn't make sense.

[Crake]

We agree with everything except the final conclusion.:smallbiggrin:

If we go your route (not wrong, just a different interpretation than I have), then anything an Bard does can be added to the list.

The difference between a figment and a phantasm is that figments are actually there, albeit fake, but phantasms make someone THINK something is there, hence mind affecting. It's the difference between a hologram (not mind affecting, because it's visually there, in real physical space) and a hallucination (entirely in someone's head, hence mind affecting).

To put it into sci-fi terms, imagine you have 2 devices, one makes a hologram, the other induces hallucinations. If you project the hologram infront of a robot with a visual sensory input, the robot is still fooled, despite it being a mindless automaton, not mind affecting. If you try to use the hallucination device on the robot, it would obviously fail, because the robot is mindless, lacking the ability to hallucinate. You don't need a mind to be fooled by a figment

[lsfreak]

How are they not?

While people have argued other ways, I'll add a different reason: because the rules say so.



Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Glamer

A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Pattern

Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.
Phantasm

A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It’s all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don’t notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.
Shadow

A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Note that there's a particular clause present for Patterns and Phantasms that's absent for Figments and Glamers.

[Malimar]

Really? I thought all enchantments were mind-affecting even if they lack the tag.

Correct. Unless there are some enchantment spells out there that specify they're not mind-affecting, in which case specific trumps general, but I don't know of any such spells.

[Valwyn]

Let's see:

Overwhelming Revelations [Magic of Eberron]: wis penalty and confusion
Semblance of Life [Magic of Eberron]: no save vs damage, intelligent undead save vs daze
Undying Aura [Magic of Eberron]: immunity to negative energy effects, use up duration to attack and daze undead
Insidious Insight [Race of Eberron]: +10 to social skills vs target
Probe Thoughts [Lords of Madness]: get answers directly from target's brain
Binding Chain of Fate [City of Splendors: Waterdeep]: target is trapped, can't shapechange/polymorph/etc, can't teleport, takes damage, is inside AMF
Laeral's Crowning Touch [City of Splendors - Waterdeep]: target gets negative levels if he casts spells
Triple Mask [Lords of Darkness]: creates three copies of yourself, can cast spells through them, acts as unseen servant
Antimagic Aura [Magic of Faerun]: single target AMF
Forceward [Magic of Faerun]: enemies must make save to enter field
Ghorus Toth's Metal Melt [Magic of Faerun]: metal object makes save or melts for 1 round, then solidifies again
Soul Scour [Unapproachable East]: target takes 2d6 Cha and 1d6 Wis damage, then 1d6 Cha damage

[Chronos]

The offensive use of Plane Shift (the one you use to send your opponent to the quasidemielemental plane of ranch dressing) is another non-mental Will save.

Will is sort of the catch-all save in 3.x: If an effect doesn't seem to fit any of the save types, it gets set as Will.

[Telok]

I compared the Enchantment & Mind-Affecting with just Enchantment in a search engine (it wasn't able to do a NOT comparison) and got 310 Mind-Affecting enchantments out of 329 total. Check Addiction [bovd], Anathema [champ ruin], Crown of glory [spc], Drug resistance [bovd], Evil eye [bovd], and Freezing Glance [frost] for starters. I didn't check and that info may be wrong.

In general it is usually safe to claim that all Enchantments are Mind-Affecting. You will most often be right.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I compared the Enchantment & Mind-Affecting with just Enchantment in a search engine (it wasn't able to do a NOT comparison) and got 310 Mind-Affecting enchantments out of 329 total. Check Addiction , Anathema [champ ruin], Crown of glory [spc], Drug resistance [bovd], Evil eye [bovd], and Freezing Glance [frost] for starters. I didn't check and that info may be wrong.

In general it is usually safe to claim that all Enchantments are Mind-Affecting. You will most often be right.

The argument is about spells like Freezing Glance that lack the [mind-affecting] tag, because of the description of the Enchantment school.

Enchantment

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

[B]All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.

So even if they don't have the tag, unless an enchantment spell specifically says it's not mind-affecting it is (there aren't any that do that afaik).
That's the RAW. Some people argue that the lack of the tag implies that they're intended not to be mind-affecting, and the designers just overlooked that bit. It's certainly not impossible.

[Jowgen]

I must say, I am quite chuffed at how popular this thread got :smallredface:

[Barstro]

While people have argued other ways, I'll add a different reason: because the rules say so.
Thanks to everyone for the education.

[TheCrowing1432]

Acquiring the half construct template requires a cumulative will save depending on how many body parts you get replaced.