Elemental Monk Confusion

[Easy_Lee]

So, looking through the elemental Monk abilities, I've got some serious confusion about the class. I'm not going to touch on how much better water whip is than fangs of the fire snake; that's a well-known oversight. Rather, what confuses me is the spell slots.

As per Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, we know that adding 1/3 casting via an archetype is okay. It would make sense for the elemental monk archetype to let them choose a handful of spell-likes cast from ki ranging from spell levels 1 to 4. Since it's a short rest resource, like warlocks, giving them a smaller spells known list or some other limitation would make sense. And personally, I would have limited each elemental Monk to one element, and made sure each element had strengths (mobility for air, damage for fire, defense for earth, control for water).

Then you look over the abilities and notice that they're half spells, and half new abilities. And the spell-likes go up to 5th level, same as a half-caster like a paladin could get. And monks get only four known total, a tiny amount, with no benefit to sticking to one element.

Feels really weird. Anyone else feel like this is weird?

[ad_hoc]

It is the only class or subclass that I just don't understand the design.

There are some minor problems with others but elemental monk just doesn't make sense.

The worst part is that the abilities work against the base class rather than with it.

[Giant2005]

It is only weird if you consider the Elemental Monk a spellcaster.
I consider those Elemental abilities closer to Invocations than spells and sadly, they are trying to emulate those really crappy invocations that require spell slots.

[Demonic Spoon]

It's not the same mechanic as ATs or EKs, no..but it's not supposed to be. They're monks. They don't cast spells like EKs or ATs for the same reason that stunning strike is an ability rather than a spell, and for the same reason that shadow monks cast spells with ki rather than spell slots.


Not forcing them stick to one element allows character concepts that otherwise wouldn't work - and sticking to one element isn't necessarily terrible, so this way is strictly more flexible.

[Easy_Lee]

It's not the same mechanic as ATs or EKs, no..but it's not supposed to be. They're monks. They don't cast spells like EKs or ATs for the same reason that stunning strike is an ability rather than a spell, and for the same reason that shadow monks cast spells with ki rather than spell slots.


Not forcing them stick to one element allows character concepts that otherwise wouldn't work - and sticking to one element isn't necessarily terrible, so this way is strictly more flexible.

More flexible, but less meaningful. No good explanation is really offered for the why or how of their powers, either.

And I realise that it's not the same mechanic, but that does not mean that we should throw out the other's balance. If getting 1st to 4th level spells from an archetype is fine, then why do monks get 5th? It's inconsistent. Some may be okay with that, but inconsistencies like this drive me right up the wall.

[insert snarky reply saying "welcome to D&D" here]

[Person_Man]

Yeah, the subclass makes no design sense to me either, and many of us have floated various homebrew fixes to it, all of which have been more reasonable.

But then again, I'm of the opinion that the Elemental Monk, 1/3 spell progression, and 1/2 spell progression are all terrible class design. Every class should get roughly comparable resources every couple of levels. It need not be the same type of resources, and those resources can be managed in different ways. For example, it makes sense for martial classes to have more always-on/all-day abilities and for casters to have more Long Rest resources. But it makes no sense for a martial class to gain a 5th level spell at the same level that a full caster class gains a 9th level spell. And the existence of high level spells like Foresight and Simularicron render the distinction between the two pointless, since they give full casters massive all day buffs.

[DireSickFish]

I took an elemental monk to mean they are so zen that they see the world as an extension of themselves, or that there is a much smaller difference between themselves and everything else. They can tap into the primordial powers that underlie the world. I like that fluff and it's why when I play monk i go for elemental monk.

Implementation on the other hand I'm less certain about. I'm fine with being able to pick and chose at each level you get a new power, much like totem barbarians are free to mix and match totems as they see fit. The damaging ones eat up a lot of ki points, and if the enemy saves you're doing less damage than if you'd just spent 1 point on a flurry.

The capping on up-casting also means you can't blow it all in an important round. The utility and buff spells seem like a much better add on tot he Monk chassis.

I was disappointed Elemental Evil has not given the Elemental Monk more options, perhaps in the next supplement.

[ruy343]

As per Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, we know that adding 1/3 casting via an archetype is okay. It would make sense for the elemental monk archetype to let them choose a handful of spell-likes cast from ki ranging from spell levels 1 to 4. Since it's a short rest resource, like warlocks, giving them a smaller spells known list or some other limitation would make sense. And personally, I would have limited each elemental Monk to one element, and made sure each element had strengths (mobility for air, damage for fire, defense for earth, control for water).

Then you look over the abilities and notice that they're half spells, and half new abilities. And the spell-likes go up to 5th level, same as a half-caster like a paladin could get. And monks get only four known total, a tiny amount, with no benefit to sticking to one element.

Feels really weird. Anyone else feel like this is weird?

Yeah, it is pretty weird. I think that it's mostly balanced, but I don't think that the spell selection that they give to monks makes much sense.

To focus in on what exactly makes it weird: it uses ki points, which fuel everything else the monk does, to cast spells, which is something they weren't able to do during their first few levels. On top of that, these spells are spells like wall of fire, or cone of cold, which are cool blasting spells, but don't really fit with the monk's other abilities (like all of their cool martial arts boosts, stunning strike, etc.). And in essence, ki points are used as a point-buy spellcasting system, which is cool and all, but somewhat needlessly complicated. And, the moment you hit level 3, you're going to stop focusing on your martial arts strikes (and flurry of blows), and will likely focus on getting the biggest bang for our buck out of your "spell slots", making your monk "lose" the ability to use the bonus dodge action, etc.

Also strangely (for a 1/3 caster), the elemental monk doesn't get cantrips, so their ability to wield the elements is entirely limited to their ki points, and therefore can't become something that defines the character's fighting style until higher levels (because you can blow through ki points pretty quickly if you're always fire-snaking). Perhaps the fix should allow the monk to gain a number of elementally-flavored cantrips, and maybe even allow them to tie that in with the extra-attacking fighting style of the monk. Maybe some cantrips need to be made up for them specifically so that they aren't overpowered.

I think that the flavor of spells that the elemental monks use should be focused on buffs, just as Easy_Lee was saying. However, I'm going to wait to see what others think before putting too much thought into that part of it.

[Demonic Spoon]

More flexible, but less meaningful. No good explanation is really offered for the why or how of their powers, either.

And I realise that it's not the same mechanic, but that does not mean that we should throw out the other's balance. If getting 1st to 4th level spells from an archetype is fine, then why do monks get 5th? It's inconsistent. Some may be okay with that, but inconsistencies like this drive me right up the wall.


Subclasses are not balanced against each other, nor are they intended to be. Elemental monks are balanced against other subclasses for monks, and the final product is balanced against other classes - the elemental monk subclass is not intended to be balanced against the arcane trickster subclass.

The explanation for the why and how of their powers is the same as the explanation for all of the other supernatural stuff they do. Why can shadow monks become invisible in dim light? Why can an open hand monk with 10 strength knock a minotaur on its ass? Because monks use ki, and ki is magic.

Different classes don't need to be consistent with each other. They're different classes with different abilities and different mechanics. It's no more inconsistent than rogues scaling in damage with sneak attack vs fighters scaling in damage with extra attacks.

[Easy_Lee]

Subclasses are not balanced against each other, nor are they intended to be. Elemental monks are balanced against other subclasses for monks, and the final product is balanced against other classes - the elemental monk subclass is not intended to be balanced against the arcane trickster subclass.

The explanation for the why and how of their powers is the same as the explanation for all of the other supernatural stuff they do. Why can shadow monks become invisible in dim light? Why can an open hand monk with 10 strength knock a minotaur on its ass? Because monks use ki, and ki is magic.

Different classes don't need to be consistent with each other. They're different classes with different abilities and different mechanics. It's no more inconsistent than rogues scaling in damage with sneak attack vs fighters scaling in damage with extra attacks.

I disagree. For a game to be balanced, we must ensure that we apply the same balancing principles in all cases. Barring that, we can do something like what Everquest did and assure that all choices offer unique benefits and are equally valid.

Trouble is that both shadow monks and open hand monks gain numerous benefits which either enhance their existing abilities or do not cost ki. The elemental monk is lacking in this regard.

My suggestion would have been choose an element, and gain unique abilities and powers associated with that element. For example, by selecting air, the monk might gain acrobatics expertise and double the effectiveness of his slow fall ability, eventually graduating to flight around the same time as dragon sorcerers get it. Those are my personal opinions, but I feel it would be both more interesting and more useful than what we got.

[Hawkstar]

I disagree. For a game to be balanced, we must ensure that we apply the same balancing principles in all cases. Barring that, we can do something like what Everquest did and assure that all choices offer unique benefits and are equally valid.
Well, the game does succeed in delivering on the latter. I like the elemental monk. And... no, not all balancing principals need to be applied the same in all cases. Asymmetric balance is a thing, and is often MORE effective than symmetrical balance.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, the game does succeed in delivering on the latter. I like the elemental monk. And... no, not all balancing principals need to be applied the same in all cases. Asymmetric balance is a thing, and is often MORE effective than symmetrical balance.

Asymmetric balance is preferable, IMO, provided that all options are equally valid. I do not think that the elemental monk is valid, given that its benefits all cost ki points and are not better than the ki abilities gained by the other archetypes, and it does not gain useful free benefits like the others.

To make it a little more apparent, the elemental monk gains four useful abilities that are effectively spell-likes. So does the shadow monk. The difference is that the shadow monk gains all four at the start, and continues to gain other abilities as he levels. These two are not equally valid choices, as one is clearly better overall.

[Dralnu]

I have a feeling that the designers themselves struggled to figure out where the Monk was at when they shipped the Elemental Monk archetype.

From "Modifying Classes": https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes

The monk is one of the most complex classes, with the highest number of unique class features. Be wary of replacing a single feature with more than one new feature, since the class already has a lot of capability.

And then the Elemental Monk is easily the most complex and hardest to analyze at a glance, simply because you're dealing with a spell list instead of short ability blurbs. It looks like they threw the list together at the last minute, didn't playtest it enough, and stayed cautious with what stuff they made available.

Personally, my ideal version of the Elemental Monk would be more like the Swordsage of 3.5 or a 4e type: expanded spell list that a) augments what you're already doing b) offers random utility c) gives you an option to cast a spell that is on par with your usual kung fu. Expanded list, spells known, less restriction on the poor ki resource. Small power boosts sprinkled over multiple abilities, the true power of the archetype being its versatility. That would carve its own niche compared to Open Palm (raw power) and Shadow (sneaky mobility).

Also I dislike being tied to one element. I much prefer being "specialized" in an element, either getting more spells of that element or some bonus related to that element. D&D and most modern systems have (thankfully) moved away from "no, you can only cast Fire, and Fire is all that you will ever do."

[calebrus]

Subclasses are not balanced against each other, nor are they intended to be. Elemental monks are balanced against other subclasses for monks, and the final product is balanced against other classes - the elemental monk subclass is not intended to be balanced against the arcane trickster subclass.

The explanation for the why and how of their powers is the same as the explanation for all of the other supernatural stuff they do. Why can shadow monks become invisible in dim light? Why can an open hand monk with 10 strength knock a minotaur on its ass? Because monks use ki, and ki is magic.

Different classes don't need to be consistent with each other. They're different classes with different abilities and different mechanics. It's no more inconsistent than rogues scaling in damage with sneak attack vs fighters scaling in damage with extra attacks.

This is the best answer we're probably ever going to see in a thread such as this.

[WunSukong]

I felt exactly the same way about the Elemental Monk. It promises so much, but the fact that everything that made you a monk comes into conflict with what makes you an Elemental Monk is silly. If you cast spells, you aren't making your unarmed strikes. If you cast spells, you eat through all of the ki that lets you do all the other interesting monk stuff.

Further, as has been mentioned before, Open Hand and Shadow get things that don't need to spend Ki.

The saddest thing I found though, is that while your four path features as an Elemental Monk are each choosing ONE spell and casting it at (Spell level + 1) ki points, the Shadow Monk's level 3 feature grants him a cantrip and 4 level 2 spells that are cast at (Spell level) ki points.

I ended up deciding to refluff the Warlock into a bender rather than deal with the Elemental Monk.

[Easy_Lee]

I felt exactly the same way about the Elemental Monk. It promises so much, but the fact that everything that made you a monk comes into conflict with what makes you an Elemental Monk is silly. If you cast spells, you aren't making your unarmed strikes. If you cast spells, you eat through all of the ki that lets you do all the other interesting monk stuff.

Further, as has been mentioned before, Open Hand and Shadow get things that don't need to spend Ki.

The saddest thing I found though, is that while your four path features as an Elemental Monk are each choosing ONE spell and casting it at (Spell level + 1) ki points, the Shadow Monk's level 3 feature grants him a cantrip and 4 level 2 spells that are cast at (Spell level) ki points.

In short, exactly how I feel. Whether one feels that archetypes ought to be balanced against each other or not, these simple truths stand. I wouldn't be surprised to see a variant elemental Monk archetype in the future, assuming that the community does not collectively adopt one.

[WunSukong]

In short, exactly how I feel. Whether one feels that archetypes ought to be balanced against each other or not, these simple truths stand. I wouldn't be surprised to see a variant elemental Monk archetype in the future, assuming that the community does not collectively adopt one.

We really should put a post together where a single, agreed upon variation is worked out.

[calebrus]

We really should put a post together where a single, agreed upon variation is worked out.

Why?
Unless and until WotC makes some official changes, it will amount to nothing more than an house rule that would be commonly adopted among a small percentage of games. A miniscule percentage of games. So small it wouldn't even show up on the radar. Who cares if it is commonly agreed upon within an handful of tables or not? An house rule is an house rule.
If you want to house rule it, go ahead and do so. No one has to agree to anything for you to do that.
My table plays with a veritable ton of house rules and little tweaks to make the game run the exact way that we want it to run. Some people might like some of them, and some people might not, but I couldn't care less if people would commonly agree to them because those people aren't at the table with us.

[WunSukong]

Why?
Unless and until WotC makes some official changes, it will amount to nothing more than an house rule that would be commonly adopted among a small percentage of games. A miniscule percentage of games. So small it wouldn't even show up on the radar. Who cares if it is commonly agreed upon within an handful of tables or not? An house rule is an house rule.

I agree, but if even 10 people on these forums, who are more knowledgeable about the game and its mechanics than the players at my table, comment on certain aspects of the house rule, it is much more likely that the house rule be reasonably balanced, flavourful and fun for whatever table it is being played on.

[calebrus]

I agree, but if even 10 people on these forums, who are more knowledgeable about the game and its mechanics than the players at my table, comment on certain aspects of the house rule, it is much more likely that the house rule be reasonably balanced, flavourful and fun for whatever table it is being played on.

Well, I find the claim that people on an internet forum are more knowledgeable than players at a table to be dubious at best.
But even if that were true, being knowledgeable about mechanics (and again, that's arguable) does not make one automatically competent at balancing things. If it did, more than half the discussions here wouldn't turn into arguments they way that they do.
The fact of the matter is that different people have different visions of what is and is not balanced, and they measure balance by different means.

[ad_hoc]

Wizards has just responded to their last survey.

Looks like they will be addressing the concerns people have with the elemental monk.

[Mr.Moron]

I agree it's a very odd design. Even putting aside the other issues the whole archetype just "Kind of sort of" casting other classes spells instead of having anything unique rubbed me the wrong way. I'd certainly be interested in an alternative take on it.

[Demonic Spoon]

I disagree. For a game to be balanced, we must ensure that we apply the same balancing principles in all cases. Barring that, we can do something like what Everquest did and assure that all choices offer unique benefits and are equally valid.

Trouble is that both shadow monks and open hand monks gain numerous benefits which either enhance their existing abilities or do not cost ki. The elemental monk is lacking in this regard.

My suggestion would have been choose an element, and gain unique abilities and powers associated with that element. For example, by selecting air, the monk might gain acrobatics expertise and double the effectiveness of his slow fall ability, eventually graduating to flight around the same time as dragon sorcerers get it. Those are my personal opinions, but I feel it would be both more interesting and more useful than what we got.


The "same balancing principles in all cases" ship sailed a long, long time ago. It sailed as soon as the 5e designers decided that they were not going to use 4e's power mechanics. Every class in 5e uses different mechanics. They get different powers at different levels that cost different kinds of resources, and it's silly to object to that specifically as it applies to the elemental monk and not object to every other class that does something unique and different.

Now, regarding the other kinds of monks: Open hand monks get abilities that enhance their basic stuff, but Shadow monks absolutely do not. Shadowmonks get spellcasting (costs an action), shadow jump (costs a bonus action, which is actually important for monks), and invisibility (which takes an action). That's the same as the element monks.


If you'd like to homebrew a different kind of element monk, one that is specifically dedicated to one element, that's fine - there's nothing wrong with that, but it does not imply a problem with what we currently have.

[Easy_Lee]

Now, regarding the other kinds of monks: Open hand monks get abilities that enhance their basic stuff, but Shadow monks absolutely do not. Shadowmonks get spellcasting (costs an action), shadow jump (costs a bonus action, which is actually important for monks), and invisibility (which takes an action). That's the same as the element monks.

An ability which costs an action and an ability which costs an action and has a ki cost can in no way be said to be comparable.

A side-by-side comparison shows the shadow monk getting the same number of spell-likes at 3 as an elemental monk will ever have, at a lower ki cost relative to spell level, in addition to other features as the shadow monk gains levels. Something is not right, here.

And that doesn't even bring up the weirdness of the elemental monk's spells going up to 5th level instead of 4th like other archetypes that grant spells; ignore that if you're determined that archetypes of different classes should not be compared. But archetypes of the same class can absolutely be compared, unless one is determined to assume that the entire game is perfectly balanced as-is and should not be questioned, a sentiment with which I disagree.

[Yagyujubei]

i don't have a problem with it to be honest. from a fluff type stand point I see it like martial arts in that you're going to be taught all of the Katas and techniques, and which of those you choose to master is up to you.

from a mechanical standpoint the mix of abilities gives you some of the utility/control a magic user would enjoy out of or in battle, and potential nova damage of a blaster. these are both things that the monk base class is lacking. on top of that you get these abilities at range, which is another unique aspect to the subclass.

[squiggit]

I agree it's a very odd design. Even putting aside the other issues the whole archetype just "Kind of sort of" casting other classes spells instead of having anything unique rubbed me the wrong way. I'd certainly be interested in an alternative take on it.

I like where they were going with it and I disagree with the people who were complaining about the abundance of blast powers. The imagery of a monk shooting a cone of cold out of his fists (or swirling fire or something) isn't exactly a new or uncommon one. It works.

My problem is that WotC seemed to build the Elemental monk really, really conservatively like one of the posters up above suggested. There's not a lot of synergy with core monk features and nothing particularly awe inspiring like some of the cooler tricks open hand and shadow monks can do.

It ends up spending a ton of ki to do its gimmicks but doesn't get particularly higher returns either. On the one hand there's a balance issue of whether or not the Elemental Monk gets decent enough returns for the investment.

But the more damning problem I think is that it's so ki-hungry that you really can't play an Elemental Monk as an Elemental Monk for the first half of the game unless you want to take a short rest after every single encounter. So you end up playing more or less a crappy baseline monk with a few spells for a huge chunk of the game before having enough Ki to be sustainable.

And to top it all off I'm not sure WotC really cares at all: The Elemental themed supplement contains absolutely no material for Elemental monks and apparently the one elemental discipline everyone agrees isn't terrible is getting nerfed.

IMO

[Yagyujubei]

yeah, the Ki economy is absolutely a huge issue with the archetype, and the general unbalance of the available abilities makes it punishing when you don't pick the "best" options, but I think the framework is totally there.

A little homebrew could easily fix it up.

[Magic Myrmidon]

It kind of reminds me of some of the problems with the 3.5 monk (although it's not as bad). It has a lot of cool, flavorful, and often useful abilities. It sounds fun to play, and the image is cool. Unfortunately, all of those cool abilities don't synergize with every other ability. People have already mentioned the reasons, but it just felt like it wasn't as easy to understand as the rest of the archetypes, nor could I see the logic behind the way the archetype works.

[Safety Sword]

And personally, I would have limited each elemental Monk to one element, and made sure each element had strengths (mobility for air, damage for fire, defense for earth, control for water).


This is an odd statement for you to make as you're the one that is usually pointing out that there are certain damage types (elements if you will) that are more commonly resisted.

I've said this before, but I don't think that the fact that the elemental monk plays differently to other monks is all that bad. It does allow you to do things that other monks and even other martial characters can not do well, namely have burst area damage a few times per short rest.

I don't even mind that it's core class abilities and archetype features can't be used together. It's an entirely different way to play. That's not a comment on design, it's about the way to play it.

[Kryx]

Yeah, the subclass makes no design sense to me either, and many of us have floated various homebrew fixes to it, all of which have been more reasonable.

Care to link some of them? I'd love to read them.

[Person_Man]

Care to link some of them? I'd love to read them.

I only have mine off hand:

Choose one element: Fire, Earth (includes Acid), Water (includes Cold), or Air (includes electricity/thunder).
You may automatically create any minor non-damaging elemental effects related to your chosen element as an Action (basically Druidcraft/Elemental Attunement limited to your element).
As part of any Long Rest, you may choose a number of spells (including Cantrips) equal to your Wisdom Modifier from any spell list and from the abilities on the RAW Elemental Monk list.
Spells selected must be related to your element, and be DM approved to be thematically appropriate.
The maximum spell level selected is = 1/4 your Monk level (rounded up).
Casting a spell requires spending a number of Ki points equal to its spell level. (Cantrips are free). You can cast it as a higher level spell slot by spending the appropriate number of points (5 points lets you cast a 1st level spell out of a 5th level slot), but only if you are capable of casting spells of that level.
At 6th level, when you use a Cantrip that deals damage of your chosen element type as an Action, then as a Bonus Action you may spend 1 point of Ki to activate your Flurry of Blows ability.
At 11th level, you may also cast Dispel Magic or Counterspell on any spell or magical effect related to your element (approved by DM), with a spell level equal to the number of Ki points spent (minimum 3, maximum 9). These spells do not count towards the maximum number of spells known. You automatically know how many Ki points you need to spend to automatically defeat the spell or effect. When using Counterspell on a spell that only targets you, you may choose to use it (or not) after the success or failure and effects of the spell have been determined. (So that it is never wasted if you pass a Save or Evasion or whatever applies).
Starting at 17th level, you become Immune to all damage of your elemental type. If you successfully use Counterspell on a spell that would have dealt your elemental damage type, then you may spend an additional number of Ki points equal to the spell's level to redirect the spell at any legal target as part of the same Reaction. (So if someone casts Fireball, you could spend 3 Ki points to Counterspell it, or a total of 6 Ki points to redirect it).


This is a very rough draft obviously, and is hopelessly chained to the half-caster model, which again I'd prefer to dump. I've seen other better ideas floating around the various forums though. Preferably someone would dozen-ish unique elemental themed abilities (like the designers should have).

[Kryx]

For anyone interested there was a great reddit thread about giving four elements monk EE spells: http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2ymkly/elemental_evil_spells_converted_for_way_of_the/

[Chronos]

What "conversion" is necessary? Just take the level, add one to get a ki cost, and give it a cool-sounding new name.

And not only does the shadow monk get more spells and cheaper, but they're also better ones. Fireball is an old classic, of course, and it has its uses, but Pass Without Trace is amazing, and Silence is great for some purposes, and either one can by itself trivialize one or more encounters.

[Easy_Lee]

What "conversion" is necessary? Just take the level, add one to get a ki cost, and give it a cool-sounding new name.

Shadow monk spells cost ki=spell level. I believe that should be the standard formula, so as not to devalue low level spells. Else, I pay 1.5 times spell level for a second level spell and only 1.25 times spell level for a fourth level spell.

[AgentPaper]

So, sort of thinking of doing an elemental monk fix myself, thought I'd share some numbers I've come up with that should help serve as a baseline for balancing. Specifically, it gives the value of an attack action (one or two attacks with a quarterstaff), and the value of a single unarmed strike, which using Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows as a baseline, gives you the value of a bonus action and 1 ki point.



Level
Attack Action
Unarmed Strike


1
7.5
5.5


5
17
7.5


11
19
9.5


17
21
10.5



Note that this assumes that the chance to hit (~70%) and the chance for an enemy to fail a save are about equal, which I'm not sure is true. I've never gotten a good estimate for this, though, so I don't know how big of a difference it is. However, since you can simply choose not to use abilities against enemies with very high saves, it probably isn't that big of a difference.

For example, Breath of Winter costs 6 ki points and an action, and since it isn't an attack, it also costs your bonus action unarmed strike. So, it is worth 1 attack action and 7 unarmed strikes, or 21+(10.5*7)= 94.5 damage. Cone of Cold does an average of 36 damage to each target, so you need to hit at least 3 targets for Breath of Winter to be an efficient use of Ki, which isn't unreasonable.

Perhaps a more relevant comparison: Fist of Unbroken Air. An action, bonus action, and 2 Ki means that his is worth an attack and 3 unarmed strikes, or 24 damage at level 1. 3d10 averages to 16.5, or 7.5 damage short of a normal attack. However, on the upside it also pushes the enemy and knocks them prone. Strength is a rare save, but one that is often high on monsters, so its not really much of a benefit. 7.5 damage is equivalent to an attack action at this level, and is more than you could have done if you had tried to push them instead, so at level 1, this is a decent ability. Not amazing, but situationally useful.

However, as you level up, unarmed strikes and attack actions become much more valuable. At level 5, FoUA still costs the same amount of Ki and does the same amount of damage, but an attack and 3 unarmed strikes is now worth 39.5 damage, a whopping 23 more damage than FoUA. That is simply untenable, and the gap only gets larger at higher levels.

Water Whip, which is ostensibly overpowered, breaks even in damage even at level 1, dealing the same 16.5 damage in exchange for 2 ki and a bonus action, or 3 unarmed strikes. The additional benefit of push/pull or prone makes this pretty much strictly better than Flurry of Blows, especially since you can do it before you make an attack. Even at higher levels you don't lose a ton of damage, 6 at level 5, 12 at level 11, and 15 at level 17.

Given the value of advantage on your main attack, not to mention your allies or the tactical value of forced movement, this is a good ability that should probably remain mostly as-is. At most, the damage should be reduced slightly at early levels so that it isn't so much better than FoB, perhaps starting at 1d10, then increasing to 2d10 at 5, 3d10 at 11, and 4d10 at 17.

Finally, Fangs of the Fire Snake. 1 Ki for 15 feet of reach and elemental damage is actually OK. If you're playing the hit-and-run monk that dashes in, attacks, and then dashes out again, it's actually pretty good. Rather than spending 1 Ki to disengage or dash as a bonus action, you simply attack from 15 feet away, saving you 20 feet of movement and needing to disengage. Less useful when you have Mobility, but still good for saving you some movement and possibly allowing you to hit something you wouldn't have otherwise, or get bonus action attacks when you would have otherwise needed to use that bonus action to Ki dash. And of course, being able to his fire vulnerability is a nice perk.

The bonus damage is actually more valuable than it first appears, since you only pay for it if it hits. Given the normal ~70% hit rate, that makes the 5.5 average damage actually worth closer to ~7.86 damage, which is a good trade at level 1, even at level 5, and only a bit worse at higher levels. Overall, probably doesn't need any change, at most a very slight increase in damage at higher levels.

[Easy_Lee]

Water Whip, which is ostensibly overpowered, breaks even in damage even at level 1, dealing the same 16.5 damage in exchange for 2 ki and a bonus action, or 3 unarmed strikes. The additional benefit of push/pull or prone makes this pretty much strictly better than Flurry of Blows, especially since you can do it before you make an attack. Even at higher levels you don't lose a ton of damage, 6 at level 5, 12 at level 11, and 15 at level 17.

Given the value of advantage on your main attack, not to mention your allies or the tactical value of forced movement, this is a good ability that should probably remain mostly as-is. At most, the damage should be reduced slightly at early levels so that it isn't so much better than FoB, perhaps starting at 1d10, then increasing to 2d10 at 5, 3d10 at 11, and 4d10 at 17.

I disagree simply because it's save for half damage and no effect. Proficient saves are a little easier to make than avoiding attacks, since the save DC is 8 + mod + prof. A proficient save yields Mod + prof + d20, and the average roll on a d20 is 10-11. Plus you only have to meet the number to make a save, whereas an attack that meets AC will hit.

Water whip costs 2 ki, does 3d10 damage for that ki cost, affects one target, can only target the dexterity save, and allows you to pull the target 25 feet closer or knock it prone. In contrast, an open hand monk's flurry costs 1 ki, affects up to two targets, deals comparable damage (at 5, 2d6+8 vs 3d10 = 15 vs 16.5), and both hits provoke either a dexterity save or prone, a strength save or push 15 feet, or no save and can't take reactions until the end of your next turn. So open hand flurry is more versatile, can target more saves, can hit twice, and costs less ki. Indeed, with an open hand flurry you can knock a target prone and then kick it 15 feet away before it even hits the ground. Not only is open hand flurry better, it's cooler from an RP perspective. And since monks have great mobility, range isn't usually an issue. Finally, being able to push targets is better than pulling them, since you would usually want to push targets into a hazard rather than pull them in.

For all of these reasons, I'm thoroughly unimpressed with water whip since it's an ability one would get instead of the open hand flurry technique at the same level. And yet it is regarded as one of the better elemental monk abilities. That really ought to say something.

[Chronos]

Eh, once you've got 25' range, you can probably push or pull enemies into hazards. And pulling also puts them into melee range with you, which is likely to be something you want. But yeah, they're at least comparable effects.

[Hawkstar]

Eh... looking at the class again, the 'biggest' change I'd make is letting an Elemental Monk have access to ALL the disciplines, restricted by level, instead of just one.

[WunSukong]

Eh... looking at the class again, the 'biggest' change I'd make is letting an Elemental Monk have access to ALL the disciplines, restricted by level, instead of just one.

I'd agree with that but also reduce all costs to (spell level) = ki, instead of (level +1).

I might also change water whip and fist of unbroken air to 2d10 and cost 1 ki.

Finally, fangs would be one ki and be "flurry plus reach" with the option of a d10 per hit, as written.

[Wartex1]

I'd probably rework the Elemental Monk to use a sort of stance system. Fire increases damage, Earth increases AC, Air increases movement speed, and Water would do... something. Maybe attack range or accuracy. You'd start with two stances, then choose another one at two separate times. There would also be various abilities you could use when in a stance.

[Demonic Spoon]

An ability which costs an action and an ability which costs an action and has a ki cost can in no way be said to be comparable.

A side-by-side comparison shows the shadow monk getting the same number of spell-likes at 3 as an elemental monk will ever have, at a lower ki cost relative to spell level, in addition to other features as the shadow monk gains levels. Something is not right, here.

And that doesn't even bring up the weirdness of the elemental monk's spells going up to 5th level instead of 4th like other archetypes that grant spells; ignore that if you're determined that archetypes of different classes should not be compared. But archetypes of the same class can absolutely be compared, unless one is determined to assume that the entire game is perfectly balanced as-is and should not be questioned, a sentiment with which I disagree.


You cannot directly compare abilities in a vacuum. You have to judge them by the overall benefit the build gets by having them. Not all level 2 spells are equal in usefulness, and the usefulness of any given level 2 spell is vastly different depending on which class is using it.

WotS monk gets 4 spells and a cantrip, that are all highly specialized and only useful in very niche situations (the one exception being pass without trace, which is basically what makes the subclass) - there's a sage advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/04/15/monk-way-of-the-shadow/) which confirms why WotS monk gets cheaper spell costs. Are you honestly going to say that being able to cast Darkvision is the equivalent of one of an element monk's abilities?

Furthermore, all of the WotS monks' abilities disappear as soon as they're in a brightly lit area. WotS becomes really really good in one particular setting (darkness, particularly where stealth is important). When that doesn't apply, they lose a lot.

Elemental monks don't follow the same rules for spellcasting as arcane trickster an EK. They do not need to follow the same paradigm. It's a different class that does different things. Things can have different mechanics and still be balanced against each other.

[Chronos]

And are you really saying that any of the elements monk's abilities are comparable to Silence? Meanwhile, being able to cast Darkvision can make a huge difference, if there are only one or two party members who need it, as is often the case.

It's also not true that all of their abilities depend on being in darkness. In particular, none of their spells (which was the point being discussed) do. Then, they also get some really nifty abilities as well, that do work only in darkness (which is far from being an uncommon situation anyway, and which they can use one of their spells to create if need be).

[ad_hoc]

Furthermore, all of the WotS monks' abilities disappear as soon as they're in a brightly lit area. WotS becomes really really good in one particular setting (darkness, particularly where stealth is important). When that doesn't apply, they lose a lot.

It's a good thing they can cast Darkness then.

Shadow Monks have a lot of added exploration power.

Elemental Monks lose a lot every time they use their limited powers. That's the problem.

[Easy_Lee]

You cannot directly compare abilities in a vacuum. You have to judge them by the overall benefit the build gets by having them. Not all level 2 spells are equal in usefulness, and the usefulness of any given level 2 spell is vastly different depending on which class is using it.

Firstly, all spells of the same level should be equally useful or niche. To say otherwise is to say that the problem is with imbalanced spells.

Second, the elemental monk spells are primarily attacks which don't help his other attacks. They have attack rolls, relying on wisdom, and only scale if more ki is used. For a shadows monk, the spells don't require rolls, scale perfectly since they are equally useful at all levels, don't require extra ki expenditure to scale, and assist the monk in doing things that he's already good at even better. A normal monk is good at killing mages, but a shadow monk can cast silence and pass without trace to be even better at the role. Monks aren't good at ranged or AoE damage, and after adding elemental monk, they still aren't good at it.

Thirdly, we aren't comparing these two in a vacuum. They are separate archetypes of monk. If anything in 5e can be compared, it is different archetypes of the same class. And of one is clearly better, as is the case here (proven by relative ki cost), then something is wrong.

[Demonic Spoon]

There's a difference between power and whether or not the spell is a niche spell. The fact that a spell isn't useful all of the time doesn't make it strictly worse than a spell that is useful all the time; it just has a specialized function that the user has to account for. This is a disadvantage for classes like the shadow monk, because they don't get a wide variety of spells. For classes like wizards, that can have general spells and specific spells prepared at the same time, it's not a big deal.

Either way, that's irrelevant - the shadow monk spells are highly niche, and whether or not you think that makes them bad spells doesn't change the fact that the element monk gets a lot more general use per each spell.



Second, the elemental monk spells are primarily attacks which don't help his other attacks. They have attack rolls, relying on wisdom, and only scale if more ki is used. For a shadows monk, the spells don't require rolls, scale perfectly since they are equally useful at all levels, don't require extra ki expenditure to scale, and assist the monk in doing things that he's already good at even better. A normal monk is good at killing mages, but a shadow monk can cast silence and pass without trace to be even better at the role. Monks aren't good at ranged or AoE damage, and after adding elemental monk, they still aren't good at it.


This is completely incorrect. Element monk spells are not 'primarily' attacks. They have some direct attack spells, but they also have lots of AOE (fireball, cone of cold, burning hands), some defensive options (stoneskin, wall of stone), and utility options (gaseous form, fly). Some of their attack-based options directly enhance their basic attacks at no action cost (fangs of the fire snake, for example).

Also, the base monk is not necessarily good at killing mages - at least not any better than any other martial class- that power comes primarily from the shadow monk spells. That's a case of a class becoming good at something through it subclass that it wasn't good at before.


Thirdly, we aren't comparing these two in a vacuum. They are separate archetypes of monk. If anything in 5e can be compared, it is different archetypes of the same class. And of one is clearly better, as is the case here (proven by relative ki cost), then something is wrong.


Prior to this last post, you were arguing based on vague concepts like what the maximum spell level they get is, the number of spells they get, and how that compares to other "casteR" archetypes in other classes. That's comparing the two subclass' features in a vacuum.

[Wartex1]

How are Darkness, Silence, and Pass Without Trace niche?

Niche sort of implies that they are rarely useful, but Silence and Darkness are both incredibly useful at many times.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the reason they go to 5th level may be that they get such a poor selection. Not many "spells" to chose from, the monk gets a very limited selection from those and can't change them.

It may also be that those spells were going to be 4th level and got bumped to 5th by a different part of the 5e team than those who did the Elemental Monk.

It's an awkward class, agreed. It's sort of a shugenja vibe grafted onto a monk chassis.

[Demonic Spoon]

How are Darkness, Silence, and Pass Without Trace niche?

Niche sort of implies that they are rarely useful, but Silence and Darkness are both incredibly useful at many times.

Silence is sometimes useful for stealth, and useful if you're up against a spellcaster using verbal components. That's niche (unless you fight spellcasters all day every day). I also don't believe silence follows the target, and its radius is only 20 ft, so it needs to be positioned right to even be good against casters.

Darkness is a (dis)advantage-canceling mechanism or a means of escape, not something you drop all the time, since you can't see through it without a Warlock dip.

Pass Without Trace is amazing, but still only useful if you're sneaking. It's extremely powerful, but not extremely powerful all the time.

[Shining Wrath]

Silence is sometimes useful for stealth, and useful if you're up against a spellcaster using verbal components. That's niche (unless you fight spellcasters all day every day). I also don't believe silence follows the target, and its radius is only 20 ft, so it needs to be positioned right to even be good against casters.

Darkness is a (dis)advantage-canceling mechanism or a means of escape, not something you drop all the time, since you can't see through it without a Warlock dip.

Pass Without Trace is amazing, but still only useful if you're sneaking. It's extremely powerful, but not extremely powerful all the time.

The only non-niche spell is Wish, then. Everything else has some situations where it's just not helpful. That's why one of the ways we evaluate the power of a full caster class is variety of spells available.

[Demonic Spoon]

The only non-niche spell is Wish, then. Everything else has some situations where it's just not helpful. That's why one of the ways we evaluate the power of a full caster class is variety of spells available.


Are you going to tell me that Protection from Evil and Good is equally versatile to Mage Armor or Shield? Or is one of those something you'll want to have available, but not as often as the others?

[Easy_Lee]

The only non-niche spell is Wish, then. Everything else has some situations where it's just not helpful. That's why one of the ways we evaluate the power of a full caster class is variety of spells available.

And if we're going off of variety, shadow monks have more spells available to them at most levels. Even at later levels, when elemental monks start to catch up, shadow monks can still cast their spells more times per rest. This is both due to elemental monk spells requiring more ki points spent to scale and because elemental monk spells cost spell level + 1 ki, while shadow monk spells only cost spell level ki. That last bit is absolutely inexcusable as far as I'm concerned.


Are you going to tell me that Protection from Evil and Good is equally versatile to Mage Armor or Shield? Or is one of those something you'll want to have available, but not as often as the others?

Versatile and good are not necessarily the same thing. That said, the shadow monk spells are versatile, so we fortunately don't have to go down this road.

The worst part, though, is that shadow monks get the same number of spells at reduced cost at level 3 as an elemental monk ever gets. And while the elemental monk does, eventually, get the higher level options, the shadow monk gains other features while that's happening. Elemental monks gain four spells of 1st to 5th level and one cantrip. Shadow monks gain four spells of second level at a lower ki cost, and one cantrip, and three other archetype features.

[ad_hoc]

Don't forget the Minor Illusion cantrip.

Open Hand enhances what the Monk is already doing without extra cost.

Shadow primarily gives extra options and abilities in the exploration pillar with some combat use.

Elemental replaces your Monk abilities.

It's just not well thought out. Stoneskin requires concentration. You can only target yourself and you want to be in combat so you want to get hit. Only you don't have Con save proficiency yet.

You get Fly after you can already run up vertical services and spend 1 Ki to bonus action dash plus double jump distance. It doesn't even work with your Monk movement speed because it is a fixed 60 feet.

At level 6 you can cast Hold Person. Or you could attack 4 times and Stunning Strike twice at the same action and Ki cost.

A level 6 Shadow Monk gets to teleport without Ki cost. It has great exploration use and is not bad in combat.

It's not even close. Elemental Monk is poorly thought out. I get the design goals behind Beast Master Ranger. I think it could have been better designed, but I understand it. Elemental Monk just doesn't make sense.

[ad_hoc]

The worst part, though, is that shadow monks get the same number of spells at reduced cost at level 3 as an elemental monk ever gets. And while the elemental monk does, eventually, get the higher level options, the shadow monk gains other features while that's happening. Elemental monks gain four spells of 1st to 5th level and one cantrip. Shadow monks gain four spells of second level at a lower ki cost, and one cantrip, and three other archetype features.

Well you can just trade out your Elemental cantrip for a useful spell at level 6, so they get 5 spells.

This was also poorly thought out. The player shouldn't be punished for wanting to keep their fluffy cantrip.

[Shining Wrath]

Are you going to tell me that Protection from Evil and Good is equally versatile to Mage Armor or Shield? Or is one of those something you'll want to have available, but not as often as the others?

Then it's a spectrum, not a binary condition. And Silence, Pass Without Trace, and Darkness are pretty far from the "use once in a great while" end.

[Person_Man]

I took 5 minutes to sort the spell list by Element, and here are the results I came up with for Cantrips through 5th level spells (EE denotes that its from Elemental Evil Supplement. Italicized spells are what I subjectively consider to be the most useful/powerful options):

Air

I include lightning and thunder in the Air element.
Cantrips
Message
Shocking Grasp
Gust (EE)
Thunderclap (EE)

1st
Fog Could (also on Water list)
Thunderous Smite
Thunderwave
Unseen Servant

2nd
Levitate
Misty Step
Dust devil (EE)
Skywrite (EE)
Warding wind (EE)

3rd
Call Lightning
Fly
Gaseous Form
Lightning Arrow
Lightning Bolt
Stinking Cloud
Wind Wall

4th
Storm sphere (EE)

5th
Cloudkill
Control winds (EE)
Maelstrom (EE)
Control winds (EE)
Fog Cloud


Earth

I include Acid in the Earth element.
Cantrips
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Poison Spray
Magic stone (EE)
Mold earth (EE)

1st
Earth tremor (EE)

2nd
Melf’s Acid Arrow
Earthbind (EE)
Maximilian’s earthen grasp (EE)

3rd
Meld into Stone
Erupting earth (EE)
Melf’s minute meteors (EE)
Wall of Sand
Stone Shape

4th
Stoneskin

5th
Passwall
Wall of Stone
Transmute rock (EE)


Fire

Cantrips
Dancing Lights
Fire Bolt
Produce Flame
Sacred Flame
Create bonfire (EE)
Control flames (EE)

1st
Burning Hands
Faerie Fire
Searing Smite

2nd
Pyrotechnics (EE)
Continual Flame
Flame Blade
Flaming Sphere
Aganazzar’s scorcher (EE)
Heat Metal

3rd
Fireball
Flame arrows (EE)

4th
Fire Shield
Wall of Fire

5th
Flame Strike
Immolation (EE)


Water

Cantrips
Ray of Frost
Frostbite (EE)
Shape water (EE)

1st
Create or Destroy Water
Purify Food and Drink
Ice knife (EE)
Fog Cloud (also on Air list)

2nd
Snilloc’s snowball swarm (EE)

3rd
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Tidal wave (EE)
Wall of water (EE)

4th
Control Water
Ice Storm
Watery sphere (EE)

5th
Cone of Cold


Universal

In my homebrew, I assume the Elemental Monk has to choose one element. So I would assume that they would get access to these spells, but only for the purpose of their element. For example, a Fire Monk could Conjure a Fire Elemental, but not any other element.

1st
Absorb Elements (EE)

3rd
Elemental Weapon
Protection from Energy

4th
Conjure Minor Elementals
Elemental bane (EE)

5th
Conjure Elemental


Overall, I think each element offers some interesting options that would make it worthwhile to take this subclass.

The weakest element is clearly water. to compensate, I would add in Poison and/or Wood and Plant and/or Healing spells as well (though all three would be overkill).

[Wartex1]

What would you guys have for a Water-based stance? I might rework the elemental monk as a whole, using the 4 stances model I proposed in addition to 2 Ki-based abilities that you can use with each one in addition to the basic cantrip of each element. Here are the other stances with some basic outlines of the powers.

Fire Stance: Deal an extra 1 fire damage on each unarmed strike (Burning Hands, Ki-based fire Divine Smite-like power)
Earth Stance: Gain a +1 bonus to AC (ala Warforged) (Wall of Stone, Stone Armor (1 minute Blade Ward))
Wind Stance: Gain an extra +10 feet to all movement (Fly, ???)
Water Stance: ??? (Tidal Wave, ???)

Each would have a Ki cost of that ability's spell cost, but the stances themselves would be a no-Ki bonus action, lasting for 1 minute.

[ad_hoc]

What would you guys have for a Water-based stance? I might rework the elemental monk as a whole, using the 4 stances model I proposed in addition to 2 Ki-based abilities that you can use with each one in addition to the basic cantrip of each element. Here are the other stances with some basic outlines of the powers.

Fire Stance: Deal an extra 1 fire damage on each unarmed strike (Burning Hands, Ki-based fire Divine Smite-like power)
Earth Stance: Gain a +1 bonus to AC (ala Warforged) (Wall of Stone, Stone Armor (1 minute Blade Ward))
Wind Stance: Gain an extra +10 feet to all movement (Fly, ???)
Water Stance: ??? (Tidal Wave, ???)

Each would have a Ki cost of that ability's spell cost, but the stances themselves would be a no-Ki bonus action, lasting for 1 minute.

I am actually working on something similar to this.

I had each stance be a bonus action lasting one minute as well but costing 2 Ki, and you choose one when you get that level rather than getting all four. I do like parts of yours.

Here is my Air which I think is good.

Darts are monk weapons for you. As a bonus action, you may spend 2 Ki points to gain the following benefits for 1 min.

• The thrown range of monk weapons is doubled for you.
• You may draw a monk weapon as part of a ranged attack with it.
• You may throw a monk weapon in place of unarmed attacks when you use your Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows abilities.
• The range of your Deflect Missiles ability is extended to any creature within 5’ of you.
• You make the ranged attack with the Deflect Missiles ability without spending Ki.

You could change the last ability to giving advantage to attacks with those missiles instead.


I am working on Water. I am using Bruce Lee's 'Be Like Water' speech as inspiration. I think 'flowing' could be a buff to the 'Patient Defense' ability. I am not sure what 'crashing' looks like yet.

For Earth this is a flavourful ability:

• You gain advantage on any saving throws or ability checks made to resist being moved or knocked prone.

[Wartex1]

Aren't darts already considered monk weapons? I thought all simple weapons were.

EDIT: NVM.

I want something for water that's always important, but not too good. Maybe that you don't provoke AoO from enemies or can move through their square?

[Easy_Lee]

My personal approach to a Homebrew would be to, like Person_man, assume each elemental monk selects a single element. However, I believe that the trouble with just having spells is that 1) monks have plenty of things to do with their actions and bonus actions already, and 2) other archetypes receive very useful passive bonuses.

So, I would give each element passive bonuses at certain levels, in exchange for a smaller selection of spells. I would make sure that these passives lead to each type having a focus: damage and destruction for fire, control for water, defense for earth, mobility and evasion for air. Most importantly, they should be integrated with the existing monk abilities, granting additional effects or opening up possibilities.

Some examples of possible passive benefits, to be gained over full leveling career:


Air: increased effectiveness of slow fall, spend an extra ki point to double the effectiveness of ki-dash and ki-jump, ki dodge grants advantage on dexterity saves that round, eventual flight.

Fire: flurry attacks deal additional fire damage equal to your unarmed damage die, can activate fire fang to grant yourself reach (only 5' extra) and make your unarmed attacks deal fire damage instead of bludgeoning (no change in damage, no ki cost), spend a ki to turn one unarmed attack into a cone fire AoE with short range that ignites flammable objects.

Water: water walk, water breathing, full speed swimming, can use dexterity for shove and grapple attempts, can attempt a shove or grapple for free as part of a flurry attack.

Earth: gain a burrow speed equal to 1/3 move speed, ki dodge adds +2 Shield AC for the round, can use dexterity in place of strength saves, perhaps a scaling damage reduction effect.

I'd have to spend a lot of time writing things up and doing the math, but this is the kind of angle I would take with elemental monks.

[ad_hoc]

It looks like we are on the same page as far as design goals go.

Dodge already grants advantage to Dexterity Saves though.

The problem with water giving shoves is that it is an Open Hand thing.

The key is to enhance Monk abilities.

For level 6 abilities I am writing up movement based ones. Here is Air and Earth

Air. You create updrafts which propel you upward. While you are not wearing armour or wielding a shield you may move vertically 5’ for every 10’ you move. For example, if you moved 45’ on your turn, you may also rise 20’ into the air during that movement. If you are in the air at the end of your turn, you fall to the ground as normal.
Earth. You may move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without expending extra movement. You know the thickness of anything made of stone or earth by touching it. As a bonus action, you may pass through up to 3’ of stone or earth without disturbing it.


I would like to see spells be self buffs that don't require concentration.

Haste for Air, Stoneskin for Earth, Freedom of Movement for Water, and Fire Shield (warm shield only) for Fire.

[Dralnu]

My homebrew is currently:


Elemental Attunement is now a cantrip spell that is automatically learned at 3rd level.
You learn two elemental disciplines at 3rd level, and two additional disciplines at 6th, 11th, and 17th.
Choose an element: Fire, Water (+Cold, maybe also Healing), Earth, Air (+Thunder/Lightning)
You learn one spell of your chosen element at 3rd level, from any spell list, subject to DM approval. You learn an additional spell of your chosen element at 6th, 11th, and 17th level.
Ki cost = spell level for spells from your elemental discipline and chosen elemental.


From there, I would brew some new elemental disciplines if needed.

As I've said before, I loathe the idea of restricting a Way of the Four Elements to a single element, aka Way of the One Element. It seems like such a silly and archaic restriction to me. A Divination wizard isn't restricted to Divination spells; he merely has bonuses tied to his specialization. Nor is a Dragon Sorcerer limited only to elemental spells of his heritage. Why a monk would be stuck with one element is beyond me.

[Person_Man]

Some examples of possible passive benefits, to be gained over full leveling career...

This is a much better idea then my draft proposal.

OK people, lets make this happen.

I'll start with Air.


3rd: Harness the Air: Whenever you use your Step into the Wind ability, until the start of your next turn you gain Advantage on all all Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks, as well as Strength (Athletics) checks made to jump, climb, or Shove.

6th: I am a Leaf on the Wind: Using your Slow Fall ability no longer requires a Reaction to use, but occurs automatically whenever you are conscious, not incapacitated or restrained, and it would be beneficial to you to do so. Your Slow Fall ability negates all falling damage regardless of distance. When you use the Slow Fall ability, you may also glide along the air to move 5 feet in any horizontal direction for every 5 feet that you fall.

In addition, whenever you use your Step into the Wind ability, your jump distance is quadrupled for the turn (instead of being doubled), and you may spend 1 additional Ki point (for a total of 2) as part of the same Bonus Action to gain the benefits of both Dash and Disengage (instead of having to choose one).

11th: Ride the Wind: As an Action you may spend 3 Ki points to gain a flying speed equal to your modified land speed for ten minutes (with Concentration). (And as normal, this speed benefits from Dash when it is used).

17th: Wind Cloak: Using your Deflect Missiles ability to prevent a ranged attack made against you no longer requires a Reaction to use, but occurs automatically whenever you are conscious, not incapacitated or restrained, and it would be beneficial to you to do so. Therefore, you may attempt to deflect any number of ranged attacks made against you. You must still use a Reaction and spend 1 point of Ki if you wish to make a ranged attack with a weapon or piece of ammunition that you catch.

[Easy_Lee]

Cool. I'm AFB, but my thought process was something like this: choose an element, and you gain a cantrip associated with that element, one passive boost, and choose one level 1 spell from a short list related to that element. At the next archetype level, gain one more boost like the first and choose a 2nd level elemental spell from a short list, and so on.

So fire monks might gain the fire bolt or produce flame cantrip, burning hands or faerie fire, and the ability to deal fire damage = unarmed damage die on flurry attacks at 3rd level. Then at 6th, it's a choice of spells like pyrotechnics or flaming sphere and the ability to convert their unarmed strikes into fire damage with reach when making an attack. And so on. Spells cost ki = spell level, and you can cast your low level spells as higher level (up to your highest level spells) by spending more ki. So second level burning hands = 2 ki.

The trick with this kind of system would be to make sure that the passives are all weaker, overall, than the shadow monk and open hand monk passives. Being able to apply reach to attacks is weaker than having a bonus action teleport, but when a Ki-cost spell is added then it's a comparable thing. Similarly, adding a little extra damage in flurries is not as good as forcing two saves to be tripped or thrown.

Under that system, it might be cool for all elemental monks to be able to bonus action cast their elemental spells for 2 ki after some point. This is similar to the sorcerer spell point cost for doing something similar. It also might allow a bit more integration between monk stuff and spells.

I'm not home right now, so I'd have to think about it. Most likely, I would come up with lots of variants just so people could pick the one they like.

Edit: fixed some typos.

[Hawkstar]

And are you really saying that any of the elements monk's abilities are comparable to Silence?Yes.

Silence cannot take enemies out of a fight without VERY specific circumstances, and can only shut down spellcasters. Fireball can clear out an entire room full of mooks. The walls can deny large areas of terrain even more effectively than silence. Element monks of any type can blow enemies around/across a room, then punch them. Or punch them and THEN blow enemies across/around a room.

[Easy_Lee]

Yes.

Silence cannot take enemies out of a fight without VERY specific circumstances, and can only shut down spellcasters. Fireball can clear out an entire room full of mooks. The walls can deny large areas of terrain even more effectively than silence. Element monks of any type can blow enemies around/across a room, then punch them. Or punch them and THEN blow enemies across/around a room.

That's like saying that the evocation school is superior to all other spell schools. Personally, I think all spells of a given level should be assumed to be balanced, as if they're not, then that's a bigger balance concern than the monk archetypes.

[Hawkstar]

That's like saying that the evocation school is superior to all other spell schools.
Ehh... more like saying Evocation's entire spell list is not inferior to all/any other school's level 2 spells.

[Easy_Lee]

Ehh... more like saying Evocation's entire spell list is not inferior to all/any other school's level 2 spells.

Thing is that we're not really comparing fireball to darkness, for example, but comparing spending 4 ki on fireball to spending 2 ki for darkness. In addition to being front-loaded and thus always accessible, the shadow monk spells cost less.

We have to consider this in context of the class, as well. Monks already have good sources of damage. One ki = four attacks that round. They give up that option four times, spend their action, and don't qualify for martial arts that round, which is four attacks for that round and three attacks over subsequent rounds, in order to cast fireball once. Obviously, this is super situational. When compared with the open hand and shadow monk abilities, which are useful most of the time and can be used more often, this seems weak.

[Wartex1]

Does anyone else have ideas for a water stance? Should it be something like an attack roll bonus, having two reactions, or saving throw bonus?

[Easy_Lee]

Does anyone else have ideas for a water stance? Should it be something like an attack roll bonus, having two reactions, or saving throw bonus?

Water is something I like to associate with control (probably due to the influence of MTG), flow, and wisdom. With that in mind, I like these kinds of things:

Treat strength checks as DEX checks when trying to shove or grapple
Treat strength saves as dexterity saves
Spend 1 ki to add your wisdom bonus to the attack roll (but not damage) of an attack
When you attempt a stunning strike, you may target the opponent's wisdom save instead

[Kryx]

OK people, lets make this happen.

I'll start with Air.
These are great. Might I suggest you start a new thread to increase interest? Many people stop reading after a few pages. Especially if those pages contained arguing.

[HoarsHalberd]

How does this sound:
Way of the Rippled Water

Crashing Wave: Starting at when you choose this path at level three, when attacking an opponent in melee combat with a martial arts attack, one can spend a ki point to add wisdom to the attack bonus of an attack, and can choose to leap over or step through the opponents space into the one directly behind.
Flowing Stream: At level 6 any time it is beneficial to use a dexterity test to shove or grapple instead of strength, or to make a dexterity save instead of a strength save the monk can choose to do so.
Reflective as a Mirror: At level 11, any time you make a charisma or intelligence save, one can spend 1 ki to take it as a wisdom save, additionally if one makes a wisdom save to a single target effect, one can spend ki equivalent to the spells level to reflect it back to the caster, which they can then attempt to save as normal.
Typhoon Burst: At level 17 the monk can choose to use a bonus action and spend 2 ki immediately after taking the attack action to send waves of water through an opponents body if they hit with an unarmed attack this round. The enemy takes 8d12 force damage with a constitution save for half. Additionally if the opponent has blood or is a water elemental and fails their save, they take 5d10 bludgeoning damage.

[Person_Man]

OK, new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412907-Crowdsourced-Fix-of-Way-of-the-Four-Elements-Monk-Subclass) for those interested in crowdsourcing a Elemental Monk fix.

HoarsHalberd, you may wish to repost your ideas there.


Also, I'd like to make a general point that 5E avoids granting bonuses outside of a few rare instances, and avoids X to Y abilities. Instead, abilities typically grants Advantage. Advantage grants a +1 to +5ish bonus, and makes your roll much more reliable, and is impossible to optimize to the point of auto-success (since Advantages don't stack).

+X abilities can be stacked on top of each other, which leads to checks which never reasonably fail. For example, you could be a Rogue 1/Monk X and stack the Rogue's Expertise (which is an example of a rare/special bonus) with the Monk's X to Y ability, and gain a nearly impossible to beat Athletics check or whatever.

So I think its worth avoiding.

[SharkForce]

for water, you could give something like heavy armour mastery to represent their ability to sorta roll with the punches.

[ad_hoc]

for water, you could give something like heavy armour mastery to represent their ability to sorta roll with the punches.

That ability feels more like something earth would give.

If going that route I would think the Battlemaster's Parry or Goliath's Stone's Endurance would be more appropriate. Still, don't want to step on any toes.

Probably best to enhance what the monk already has, in this case Patient Defense.

[AgentPaper]

I don't think it's a good idea to split the Elemental Monk up into essentially four different archetypes, especially if they are going to each have their own completely unique set of abilities.

Honestly, I don't think that the Elemental monk needs such a fundamental change to make it work. Reducing the cost of abilities to 1 ki per spell level is a good change. Keep Water Whip as a bonus action.

Change all the d10s in Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fist of Unbroken Air, and Water Whip to be d6s, increasing to d8 at 5, d10 at 11, and d12 at 17. **** of the Fire Snake increases the damage of your first hit for free. Fist of Unbroken Air becomes an AoE, perhaps a 10ft cone or 20ft line, and you can spend ki to make the AoE bigger rather than more damage.

I'd also add a low level earth-themed ability to go along with the water/air/fire ones, perhaps a short range AoE and/or defensive ability.