[PEACH] Binder class (WIP)

[anaximander19]

So, as I've mentioned before I'm part of a 3.5e game that's been going for about two years now, and we've decided to switch to 5e rules while keeping as much of the plot as possible. In places, this means homebrewing some classes. As part of that, I've volunteered to attempt a 5e Binder. As one of 3.5's more complex classes, this could be a challenge: keep the flavour and style of the Binder, but keep the mechanics in line with 5e's streamlined approach.

This is far from finished, but I've decided to post it to get some early feedback.

So, the class:



Binder
Binders are students of an ancient and secret lore that allows them to call to entities that live beyond the known planes, in the spaces between the worlds. Through a combination of forgotten magics and complex bargains, they persuade or compel these beings to serve them - though not always without price.

Beyond Reality
A binder learns to cast their mind into the void between the planes, and to search the fractal wilderness there for beings that will answer their call. These beings are born from the chaos outside of reality, from the last echoes of the world's creation, and from energies that leak out of the planes. Their personalities, abilities and motivations vary wildly depending on their origin, ranging from reasonable and relatable to deeply inscrutable.

A Bargain Sealed
In order to obtain the services of a vestige, a binder must strike a deal with that vestige, and use their magic to make the terms of the agreement totally binding. Knowing this, the vestiges will often seek to outwit the binder, adding loopholes and ambiguity into the terms of the bargain, making every deal a grave risk for the binder.

Class Features
As a binder, you gain the following class features:

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per binder level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per binder level after 1st

Proficiencies
Armour:Light armour
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Charisma, Wisdom

Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:


(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
(a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar’s pack or (b) a dungeoneer’s pack
Leather armour, any simple weapon, and two daggers




LevelProficiency BonusFeaturesVestigesVestige Level




1st+2Summon Vestige11


2nd+2Suppress Sign11


3rd+2Soul Guardian12


4th+2Ability Score Improvement12


5th+3The Power Within (1)23


6th+3Trusted Vestige (1)23


7th+324


8th+3Ability Score Improvement24


9th+4Slippery Mind34


10th+4The Power Within (2)35


11th+4Trusted Vestige (2)35


12th+4Ability Score Improvement36


13th+546


14th+5The Power Within (3)47


15th+5Trusted Vestige(3)47


16th+5Ability Score Improvement48


17th+658


18th+6The Power Within(4)59


19th+6Trusted Vestige (4)59


20th+6[capstone]59




Summon Vestige
In your studies, you have uncovered the means to pierce the very fabric of the planes and call to what lives beyond. At 1st level, you learn how to contact a vestige and bind it in a magical agreement. At first level, you can bind one vestige. At higher levels, the number of vestiges you can bind simultaneously increases, as shown in the Vestiges column of the binder table. In addition, at any one time, you can bind vestiges whose combined level is equal to no more than your binder level.

Once per day, in a ritual taking 1 minute per vestige to be summoned, you draw the unique seal of the vestiges you wish to contact on a surface, each forming an image at least 5 feet across, and speak the name and title of each vestige in turn. When their name is spoken, each vestige manifests as a harmless illusion above their seal, and you must make a charisma check against the vestige's pact DC. If you succeed, you convince the vestige to co-operate, and you make a good pact. You gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours. If you fail the check, the vestige is unwilling and will attempt to subvert the bargain, and you have made a poor pact. You gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours, but you also find that the vestige begins to affect your personality and actions while the pact is in effect.

Renegotiation
Once per day when you take a short rest, you can choose to perform a the ritual of binding a second time to renegotiate any or all of the bargains you have made. This allows you to expel a bound vestige early, and bind another. When you choose to renegotiate in this way, you can expel and bind vestiges whose combined level is no more than half your binder level.

For example, as a 12th-level binder, you might choose to expel one 4th-level vestige (4 points) and bind a 2nd-level vestige in its place (2 points).

Suppress Sign
Starting at second level, your control of the vestiges you summon increases. When you make a good pact, you can choose to suppress the physical sign of that pact. As a free action, you can suppress or restore the physical sign of any pact currently in effect. If you make a poor pact, that pact's sign cannot be suppressed.

Soul Guardian
At 3rd level, the vestiges you bind will help you to guard your mind. As long as you have a vestige bound, you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened, and the duration of any fear effects acting on you is halved.

Trusted Vestige
Starting at 6th level, you begin to form a stronger relationship with a particular vestige. This vestige will respond more readily to your summons, and is more likely to obey without attempting to subvert the bargain. Choose one vestige that you have previously summoned and remained bound to for a continuous period of no less than 24 hours. You have advantage on the binding check to make a good pact with this vestige. In addition, you gain access to this vestige's special ability. You can choose additional trusted vestiges at 11th, 15th and 20th level. You cannot choose the same vestige twice, and your trusted vestiges cannot be changed once chosen.

Slippery Mind
At 9th level, your experiences in sharing your mind with summoned vestiges teach you how to maintain control of your thoughts. You have advantage on saving throws against all mind control effects. In addition, when you succeed on a save against mind control, or a mind control effect affecting you ends, you gain immunity against all mind control effects for a length of time equal to the effect's duration.

Pact Augmentations
At 5th level, you begin to learn additional ways to allow the power of your bound vestiges to express itself. You may choose one augmentation from the list at the end of the class description. This augmentation is active as long as you have a vestige bound. At 10th, 14th and 18th level you can choose additional effects from this list. You may choose the same augmentation twice, and the effects stack (in the case of Energy Resistance, you must choose a different energy type). Additionally, when you choose a new augmentation, you can choose one of the augmentations you have and replace it with another that you could gain at that level.

Augmentations are powered by the vestiges you have bound. You must have one vestige bound for each active augmentation. For example, at 18th level, to have four augmentations active you must have four vestiges bound. You can choose which augmentations become active when you perform the ritual of binding, at which point they are fixed until you next perform the ritual. If a pact expiring or a vestige being expelled leaves you with more augmentations than bound vestiges, you can choose which augmentations end, and they end immediately.

Armour of the Void
You gain +1 to AC while not wearing armour.

Born of Chaos
You have advantage on all initiative rolls.

Elemental Resistance
You gain resistance to one energy type: acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic.

Immortal Essence
Your Hit Point maximum and current Hit Point total increase by 5.

Otherworldly Sight
You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet.

Shared Consciousness
You are immune to magical sleep effects. In addition, when any effect would render you unconscious, you can make a DC 15 Constitution save to avoid it.

Unreal Apparition
You can cast *minor illusion* at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.


Here's the thinking behind the design:


Vestige slots/Vestige levels/Binding points is roughly analogous to spell slots/spell level/sorcery points, so it's got precedent in existing classes
It takes points to expel vestiges as well as bind them, meaning if you bind the max in the morning, you'll be less powerful after you renegotiate - you sacrifice power for versatility
If you max out, it is possible to get two 9th-level spells per day, which nobody else gets... but in order to do that, your entire spellcasting capability besides those to will consist of one 2nd-level spell per day, two 4th-level spells and one 2nd-level spell per short rest, and three cantrips. Barely anything at the levels we're talking about (17+).

I'm really not sure on the wording of some of it (particularly the actual ritual of binding) but I think it gets the basics across. As you can see from the table, I'm planning to rescale 3.5's 8 levels of vestige into 9 and give Binders 5 vestiges instead of 4, because I think it's silly that while basically everything else happens in 5s and 9s (eg. maximum spell levels) , Binders get 4 and 8. I'm currently looking at the vestiges themselves; so far I've decided to standardise them a little, as follows:



Vestige Template

Name (obvious)
Title (for flavour; used when binding)
Seal (for flavour)
Manifestation (for flavour)

2 passive abilities, chosen from:

Languages
Weapon & armour proficiencies
Tool proficiencies
Skill proficiencies
Racial features (eg. tiefling's Darkvision, dwarf's Stonecunning)
(for higher-level vestiges)1st-level class features (eg. fighter's Fighting Style)

1 at-will ability, chosen from:

Cantrips
Class features available to characters of the vestige's level (eg. rogue's Sneak Attack)

1 once-per-short-rest feature, providing a spell of half the vestige's level (or equivalent power)

1 once-per-long-rest feature, providing a spell of the vestige's level (or equivalent power)


I'm not yet sure how well all the vestiges will fit to that template, but most 3.5e vestiges have 4 or 5 abilities, and so far most of the ones I've looked at do work, so early indications are good.

Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated; this class has a way to go yet.

[weaseldust]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks to me like at level 20 you can: bind a trusted 9th level vestige for 5 pts, bind another 9th level vestige for 9 pts, bind a trusted 7th level vestige for 4 pts, and bind a trusted 4th level vestige for 2 pts. Then blow all their short- and long-rest abilities, and renegotiate, binding two 9th level vestiges and a trusted 3rd level vestige. You get 4 level-9 spells, 1 level-7 spell, 5 level-4 spells, 2 level-3 spells, 1 level-2 spell and 1 level-1 spell. Plus all their other abilities.

I think that's more than you intended, and probably more than should be allowed. I'm not even sure it's the best set of spell slots possible, though it does give you the most level-9 slots. It's the combination of renegotiation and trusted vestiges that causes problems.

My suggestion would be to model the class along the lines of the Warlock. Limit the level of vestiges to 5, and have the level increase at the rate of the levels of Warlock spell slots. Have the number of vestiges bound increase at the rate of the number of Warlock spell slots. Let each vestige provide one spell slot of its own level per short rest to cast any spell from a short list specific to the vestige. Then the class gets as many slots and of the same level as the Warlock, but the choice of vestige still matters. You can also let vestiges give cantrips and other benefits that correspond in power to Warlock invocations.

I would make favoured vestiges offer better benefits (and keep the advantage on rolls to avoid a bad pact; I really like the bad pact idea!), rather than allow more vestiges to be bound. I would limit renegotiation to swapping out one vestige whose spell slot hasn't been used yet, and only allow that once per day.

How does that sound? (Probably like a Warlock clone, I suppose. The flavour stays intact, though, right?)

[anaximander19]

Argh, yeah, I missed that combo. The trusted vestige part is new and I hadn't re-evaluated the numbers with it in mind. That's definitely too much.

The issue with matching the warlock progression is that warlock spell slots max out at 5, whereas there are 9 levels of vestige. That said, warlocks gain the next level of slot every 2 levels, which is the same as wizards and sorcerers - they just cap out sooner. By that measure, this already does increase vestige level at the same rate as warlocks. Warlocks go up to 4 slots, so I suppose I could use the same progression as that for the number of vestiges bound, which puts it back to a maximum of 4 as it was in 3.5e.

I was considering giving each vestige an ability that you only gain access to if it's one of your trusted vestiges, which might be a good alternative to the reduction in binding cost. With costs fixed like that, it goes back to a maximum of 9+9+2, and now I think about it I realise you can renegotiate and swap out one of the 9th-level vestiges to get a third 9th-level spell which is probably too much again. I'll have to find a way around that. I could half the number of points, making it more like the wizard's Arcane Recovery feature. That lets me drop the concept of binding points and just say that you can only bind your level worth of vestiges, and you can renegotiate half your level once per day. Under that system, a 20th-level binder maxes out with 9+9+2+1 (bind 9+9+2, expel 9, bind 2), or 6+6+6+4+2 (bind 6+6+6+2, expel 6, bind 4), which are much more reasonable power levels.

Actually, that sounds about right. I'll make that change and see how it looks.

[weaseldust]

The issue with matching the warlock progression is that warlock spell slots max out at 5, whereas there are 9 levels of vestige.

OK, what I was trying to suggest was to have the vestige levels only go up to 5 to match the Warlock spell slot progression exactly. Or let them go up to 10 and only have them offer slots of half their level. Sorry if that didn't come across.


Under that system, a 20th-level binder maxes out with 9+9+2+1 (bind 9+9+2, expel 9, bind 2), or 6+6+6+4+2 (bind 6+6+6+2, expel 6, bind 4), which are much more reasonable power levels.

Couldn't you bind 9+9+2, then renegotiate the 2 in favour of an 8? In fact, you could first bind 9+9+1, selling yourself short by 1, then renegotiate the 1 and gain another 9.

That's more on the right track, though, if you don't want to go the Warlock route. I have to admit that this method would make planning your day much more interesting than any other class has it because there are so many choices involved in picking vestiges. But it makes it harder to balance for the same reasons.

You could also limit the number of vestiges per level a binder can have access to. E.g. they might only ever learn of the existence of a single level 9 vestige, but they could know of many level 1 vestiges. That would stop them ever getting two level 9 spells in a day. And you could keep the lower level vestiges relevant by giving them niche benefits, like water breathing or the ability to speak Draconian, which could come up on the odd adventuring day, so knowing lots of them would remain useful.

Edit: I should make it clear, in case the nitpicking about numbers suggests otherwise, that I think the class has the potential to be really fun, especially if you do a really good job on the individual vestiges.

[anaximander19]

OK, what I was trying to suggest was to have the vestige levels only go up to 5 to match the Warlock spell slot progression exactly. Or let them go up to 10 and only have them offer slots of half their level. Sorry if that didn't come across.

Ah, I see. I kinda like the idea of having 9 levels of vestige; in 3.5e there were 8, and there are nearly twice as many vestiges in levels 4 and 6 as the other levels, so it'd be easier to shuffle 8 levels out into 9 than it would be to condense down to 5. Plus, it makes balancing the vestiges easier because I can scale them to match the equivalent spell level in terms of power.


Couldn't you bind 9+9+2, then renegotiate the 2 in favour of an 8? In fact, you could first bind 9+9+1, selling yourself short by 1, then renegotiate the 1 and gain another 9.
You're missing the limit that you can't bind more than your level worth of vestiges. As a 20th-level binder, if you bind 9+9+2 = 20, then expel the 2, you have the potential to renegotiate 8 levels worth of vestige, but you only have space for 2 levels before you hit that cap.


I have to admit that this method would make planning your day much more interesting than any other class has it because there are so many choices involved in picking vestiges. But it makes it harder to balance for the same reasons.
That's what I'm aiming for - remember, I'm building this specifically because our party are converting to 5e and we have a binder; I've been discussing with the guy who plays that binder, and that's one of the main things he likes about the class, so I'm doing my best to carry that over. The balancing is going to be tricky, which is why I plan to standardise the vestiges to all fit that template. Having them all balanced against a common yardstick saves having to balance all the combinations of vestiges against each other (although I'll still be doing a quick pass to check for obvious power combos).


You could also limit the number of vestiges per level a binder can have access to. E.g. they might only ever learn of the existence of a single level 9 vestige, but they could know of many level 1 vestiges. That would stop them ever getting two level 9 spells in a day. And you could keep the lower level vestiges relevant by giving them niche benefits, like water breathing or the ability to speak Draconian, which could come up on the odd adventuring day, so knowing lots of them would remain useful.
Both great ideas, and both part of the plan. Some of the 3.5e vestiges support this brilliantly (off the top of my head, I remember there's a 4th-level that gives Find Steed, and there's a 1st-level that gives dwarf Stonecunning, etc) so the idea of keeping lower-level vestiges for niche benefits is spot on. As for the availability, that's partly why I'm keeping 3.5e's name/title/seal idea - even knowing a vestige's name isn't enough; you need to find and learn its seal so you can draw it during the ritual. This allows the DM to limit the availability of vestiges, and opens up some plot hooks for quests to find the seal of some powerful vestige.

[Mr.Moron]

Just a couple 1st-pass basics:

No ability score increases
4th & 19th are 100% dead levels.

[anaximander19]

Ability score increases will come; just haven't listed them yet. I'll match levels with the other casters for those, which will give 4th level something. Good catch on 19th, though... I'll have to add something there. That said, every level gained is an increase to the combined total of vestiges you can bind, so at 19th you've gone from 9+9 to 9+9+1... probably not quite enough to make 19th interesting, but it's something.

[weaseldust]

Ah, I see. I kinda like the idea of having 9 levels of vestige; in 3.5e there were 8, and there are nearly twice as many vestiges in levels 4 and 6 as the other levels, so it'd be easier to shuffle 8 levels out into 9 than it would be to condense down to 5. Plus, it makes balancing the vestiges easier because I can scale them to match the equivalent spell level in terms of power.

That's fair enough if you're set on porting across all (or most of) the 3.5e vestiges. It sounds like hard work to me, but I look forward to seeing how it turns out.


You're missing the limit that you can't bind more than your level worth of vestiges. As a 20th-level binder, if you bind 9+9+2 = 20, then expel the 2, you have the potential to renegotiate 8 levels worth of vestige, but you only have space for 2 levels before you hit that cap.

OK, so the cap is on the level of vestiges you can have bound at any time, not on the level of vestiges you can bind in the morning. I can't see any problems with that.


That's what I'm aiming for - remember, I'm building this specifically because our party are converting to 5e and we have a binder; I've been discussing with the guy who plays that binder, and that's one of the main things he likes about the class, so I'm doing my best to carry that over.

I've never played one, so I'm kind of curious as to what effect it has on the character and party to be able to bind 9+9+2 one morning and 5+5+5+5 the next. It's very different from how all other classes work, much more variable, but that's part of the appeal of the class, I suppose.


Some of the 3.5e vestiges support this brilliantly (off the top of my head, I remember there's a 4th-level that gives Find Steed, and there's a 1st-level that gives dwarf Stonecunning, etc) so the idea of keeping lower-level vestiges for niche benefits is spot on. As for the availability, that's partly why I'm keeping 3.5e's name/title/seal idea - even knowing a vestige's name isn't enough; you need to find and learn its seal so you can draw it during the ritual. This allows the DM to limit the availability of vestiges, and opens up some plot hooks for quests to find the seal of some powerful vestige.

It sounds like you have this all worked out. I hope it comes together for you and satisfies your player, but the signs are good.

[anaximander19]

Thanks! I do plan to convert the full list of 3.5 vestiges (yes, all 46 of them) but I'll be prioritising the half-dozen that our binder favours currently, followed by the two or three he's thinking of trying out when he next gains a level. That should be enough to cover the next few months of our game, during which time I can do the rest. I'll also be adding a homebrew vestige of my own to tie in with a certain piece of our game's plot, because why not. Yes, it's a fair bit of work, but I don't sleep much and I find this sort of thing fun, so it'll keep me out of trouble for a few weeks ;)

[Ilorin Lorati]

Good catch on 19th, though... I'll have to add something there. .

The last ability score increase always comes on 19th level. What's actually missing is a proper capstone; personally I wouldn't consider an incremental improvement to something they've been getting since 6th level to really work. If you don't want to give much power perhaps grant the ability to not need a check to one of the trusted vestiges, or maybe remove the requirement entirely for them.

[anaximander19]

Agreed. Some things I haven't covered yet:

The 3.5e binder's extra table of buffs. For those who aren't familiar with that class, there was a table containing things like DR 1/-, +5 hit points, energy resistance 5 to one type, etc. and every few levels you could pick anything off that table, and have that buff as long as you had a vestige bound. You could even pick the same one multiple times and have them stack.

The mental abilities. 3.5e binders had various mind effects due to the fact they had other minds sharing space with them, so they gained things like resistance to charm and fear, immunity to mind control, that sort of thing.

One of these will probably go where I have the [additional feature] markers (probably the former), so I can always find something suitable from these abilities to form a nice capstone. Suggestions welcome, either along those lines or something new.

[Belac93]

pretty neat, looking forward to seeing more

[Prince Zahn]

Ah, a binder class for 5th edition - just what the doctor ordered! :smallsmile:
To be frank, I also imagined, at first glance, that there might be some connection with the warlock, which also now claims it's name under "pact magic", and executes it nicely, but a warlock certainly can't play to the same dynamic expectations the binder has.
Now some thoughts:
saving throw proficiencies: I would imagine a charisma save proficiency might be thematically appropriate, given it implying a resistance to involuntary possession. Not sure about the second save.
Binding check: to make it feel more 5e, consider just labeling it a charisma check to form a pact, likely adding your proficiency bonus. With a streamlined check similar to all the other rolls, you can make easier expectations/estimations of what numbers you are likely to work with at any given level, and it let's you work with numbers familiar to the system when calculating DCs for your vestiges.
subclasses - one of my favorite things about classes in 5e, is this built-in mechanic all classes have, that makes two members of the same class vastly distinct from each other. It could be done in multiple ways: you could use it make a place for the pact augmentation and/or soul binding Abilities and protections, and anything else you might find reasonable, then maybe decorate it with a couple of " ribbons " (as the D&D R&D team call them, see: unearthed arcana column) and we're good. Alternatively, you can use it to ingrain 3.5 PrC concepts into the class (like the Anima Mage who exploits vestiges/bends pacts for more power, or the Knight of Sacred Seal who gets more fighting capabilities while remaining bound to a favored vestige, etc.) ... Just ideas, of course.:smallsmile:
I'd be wary of making the binder a copycat of other classes (see: class feature abilities vestiges give) like in the past. It was cool in 3.5, but it's a difficult balancing act to keep it relevant, yet not unbalanced. Especially when dealing with flagship class abilities like the rogue's SA, or a bard's inspiration, which are vital to those classes being unique. I would advise to steer clear of iconic class features, and to be careful whilst handling scaling ones, as a high level binder gets up to five of them. Ideally, the class features emulated would not wind up more powerful than their alternative options


Those are my 2d6+3 cents. Thread subscribed, I'd like to see how you complete this!
PZ.

[The_Doctor]

For vestiges, why not just try and adapt the old ones (from ToM, Dragon, etc) and possibly some of the custom ones from here, (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1051726) the nigh-legendary "Let's Make Some New Vestiges" thread from the old Wizard boards; it's lived through three forums and I still hear about it.

For subclasses why not just adapt the old prestige classes? Anima Mage would make a good subclass. Don't give too many though.

[anaximander19]

Binding check: to make it feel more 5e, consider just labeling it a charisma check to form a pact, likely adding your proficiency bonus. With a streamlined check similar to all the other rolls, you can make easier expectations/estimations of what numbers you are likely to work with at any given level, and it let's you work with numbers familiar to the system when calculating DCs for your vestiges.
Actually, it's currently calculated exactly the same as a spell attack: 1d20 + charisma + proficiency... which is exactly the same as a charisma check. I'll change the wording.



subclasses - one of my favorite things about classes in 5e, is this built-in mechanic all classes have, that makes two members of the same class vastly distinct from each other. It could be done in multiple ways: you could use it make a place for the pact augmentation and/or soul binding Abilities and protections, and anything else you might find reasonable, then maybe decorate it with a couple of " ribbons " (as the D&D R&D team call them, see: unearthed arcana column) and we're good. Alternatively, you can use it to ingrain 3.5 PrC concepts into the class (like the Anima Mage who exploits vestiges/bends pacts for more power, or the Knight of Sacred Seal who gets more fighting capabilities while remaining bound to a favored vestige, etc.) ... Just ideas, of course.:smallsmile:
The crazy thing about binders is that just binding a different set of vestiges already makes you very different. I'm keeping some notes in the margin on this one, which I'll be providing to the DM who runs the game this will be used in, and one of the key notes is that a binder needs to discover the name, formal title, and seal of a vestige, so a DM can limit access to vestiges by requiring the players to go on a quest to find those details, which are likely to be lost or closely-guarded knowledge (especially for the higher-level vestiges). This helps to get binders diverging a little, and then there's the choice of Trusted Vestiges, which helps too. In 3.5, there was also the Pact Augmentation effects you could choose from every few levels, which allowed you to tailor the character even more, and I've just added that as well.

Incidentally, I was initially considering doing a more general Summoner class, with subclasses Binder (binds vestiges into items, making things like possessed armour or sentient swords), Manifester (gives vestiges physical form in a manner similar to Summon Monster, giving you minions for the day) and Channeler (channels the powers and skills of the vestiges through themselves, like the 3.5e Binder) but I decided that was too complex when all I needed for now was a way to convert our party's Binder character into 5e. I'll probably still create that Summoner class though, just not yet. Stay tuned!



I'd be wary of making the binder a copycat of other classes (see: class feature abilities vestiges give) like in the past. It was cool in 3.5, but it's a difficult balancing act to keep it relevant, yet not unbalanced. Especially when dealing with flagship class abilities like the rogue's SA, or a bard's inspiration, which are vital to those classes being unique. I would advise to steer clear of iconic class features, and to be careful whilst handling scaling ones, as a high level binder gets up to five of them. Ideally, the class features emulated would not wind up more powerful than their alternative options.
Yeah, I don't want it to steal the spotlight, but I do want it to be able to get a little bit of the flavour of the various classes. It's partly because of the lore - when you're binding the soul of a former rogue, you should feel a little bit roguish, and when you're binding the remnants of a mad demilich, you should get a taste of what that feels like, too. Also, this ability to be a jack-of-all-trades, dipping a toe into all the classes without ever fully being any one of them, is a sizeable part of why our Binder chose to play as a Binder, so if I remove too much of that then it defeats the reason I'm building this class.

I've updated the first post with my latest additions; I'm currently trying to come up with a decent 20th-level capstone, and starting to convert the vestiges from Tome of Magic. There's a lot, but I'd like to get the first two or three levels done soon, because then we can start playing (our Binder is level 5).

As always, critique and suggestions welcome.

[Prince Zahn]

Actually, it's currently calculated exactly the same as a spell attack: 1d20 + charisma + proficiency... which is exactly the same as a charisma check. I'll change the wording. awesome :smallsmile: the way that nearly every d20 roll functions the same in 5e is one of my favorite selling points.


The crazy thing about binders is that just binding a different set of vestiges already makes you very different. spellcasters also select vastly different sets of spells that differentiate them from their "classmates" in a similar way. Subclasses have nothing to do with that. Otherwise I get where you're coming from.

I'm keeping some notes in the margin on this one, which I'll be providing to the DM who runs the game this will be used in, and one of the key notes is that a binder needs to discover the name, formal title, and seal of a vestige, so a DM can limit access to vestiges by requiring the players to go on a quest to find those details, which are likely to be lost or closely-guarded knowledge (especially for the higher-level vestiges). This helps to get binders diverging a little, and then there's the choice of Trusted Vestiges, which helps too. In 3.5, there was also the Pact Augmentation effects you could choose from every few levels, which allowed you to tailor the character even more, and I've just added that as well. I'm liking how it's turning out :3 just be wary on that AC bonus. It feels exploitable.


Incidentally, I was initially considering doing a more general Summoner class, with subclasses Binder (binds vestiges into items, making things like possessed armour or sentient swords), Manifester (gives vestiges physical form in a manner similar to Summon Monster, giving you minions for the day) and Channeler (channels the powers and skills of the vestiges through themselves, like the 3.5e Binder) but I decided that was too complex when all I needed for now was a way to convert our party's Binder character into 5e. I'll probably still create that Summoner class though, just not yet. Stay tuned!I hope it comes out well. Summoning monsters as a combat strategy is less to my own taste than the binder, but nevertheless, summoners are kinda rad. :smalltongue:


Yeah, I don't want it to steal the spotlight, but I do want it to be able to get a little bit of the flavour of the various classes. partly because of the lore - when you're binding the soul of a former rogue, you should feel a little bit roguish, [...] is a sizeable part of why our Binder chose to play as a Binder, so if I remove too much of that then it defeats the reason I'm building this class. Fair enough. I nevertheless advise caution.


I've updated the first post with my latest additions; I'm currently trying to come up with a decent 20th-level capstone, and starting to convert the vestiges from Tome of Magic. There's a lot, but I'd like to get the first two or three levels done soon, because then we can start playing (our Binder is level 5).

As always, critique and suggestions welcome. capstone... perhaps Something like: "at 20th level, you can form a pact with a trusted vestige that last indefinitely. If you do so, the vestige remains in your body until you renegotiate the bound pact. You can only have one vestige bound in this fashion at once."
Just a suggestion :3 it's a little bit of a "safety net" feature, you might make it along the lines of Signature Spell (wizard), at-will wild shape (druid) or starting every combat with Ki Points (Monk).

Overall,this is looking great so far. I hope to see it done, and ideally find a way to playtest it someday :smallbiggrin

[anaximander19]

spellcasters also select vastly different sets of spells that differentiate them from their "classmates" in a similar way. Subclasses have nothing to do with that. Otherwise I get where you're coming from.
I'm liking how it's turning out :3 just be wary on that AC bonus. It feels exploitable.
Agreed. Like I said, I will add some subclass stuff to this at some point, but for now just getting the general feel of the 3.5 binder is enough for my purposes. Also, that AC bonus is possibly too powerful; that's a direct copy from 3.5, but AC worked differently there so it'll need adjusting. I plan to revisit that whole list of effects; I'm thinking possibly something like the warlock's invocations.



capstone... perhaps Something like: "at 20th level, you can form a pact with a trusted vestige that last indefinitely. If you do so, the vestige remains in your body until you renegotiate the bound pact. You can only have one vestige bound in this fashion at once."
Just a suggestion :3 it's a little bit of a "safety net" feature, you might make it along the lines of Signature Spell (wizard), at-will wild shape (druid) or starting every combat with Ki Points (Monk).

That's not a bad idea... I was thinking of a limited way to get some permanency on their abilities. Of course, specifying that it has to be a trusted vestige also means that they don't get permanent 9th-level stuff, because the highest Trusted Vestige spot is at 7th - which was deliberate; the very highest levels of power should always be a risk.


Overall,this is looking great so far. I hope to see it done, and ideally find a way to playtest it someday :smallbiggrin:Thanks! I'll keep this thread updated, and when we start playing with it I'll let you know how it goes.

[Prince Zahn]

Agreed. Like I said, I will add some subclass stuff to this at some point, but for now just getting the general feel of the 3.5 binder is enough for my purposes. Also, that AC bonus is possibly too powerful; that's a direct copy from 3.5, but AC worked differently there so it'll need adjusting. I plan to revisit that whole list of effects; I'm thinking possibly something like the warlock's invocations.
Fair enough. I like the idea of "binder invocations", though those at will abilities were to bolster a warlock, because a maximum 4 spells per long rest is otherwise unspeakable. I don't know how your Binder will come out, but depending how the vestiges come out it might not be too necessary.
Though I can't tell for certain at this point. I figure you should see if he needs invocation like powers before setting it in stone.


[,QUOTE]That's not a bad idea... I was thinking of a limited way to get some permanency on their abilities. Of course, specifying that it has to be a trusted vestige also means that they don't get permanent 9th-level stuff, because the highest Trusted Vestige spot is at 7th - which was deliberate; the very highest levels of power should always be a risk.

Thanks! I'll keep this thread updated, and when we start playing with it I'll let you know how it goes.[/QUOTE]
You can? It was?:smallconfused: I might not have noticed. If so that's great (the chart is throwing me off)it would might work out pretty strong, even for a capstone, but the high level stuff still needs rest to recharge, even if it's a 7th level vestige constantly active.
Thanks to you too! I look forward to it ^_^

[anaximander19]

If so that's great (the chart is throwing me off)it would might work out pretty strong, even for a capstone, but the high level stuff still needs rest to recharge, even if it's a 7th level vestige constantly active.True; the once-per-long-rest restriction will help. What I meant is that I don't really want to let the player have a 9th-level vestige always available at no risk - the core of Trusted Vestige is to reduce the risk of using a certain set of abilities that you've come to favour. By allowing them to make a binding last indefinitely, it means they can remove the risk entirely. By saying that the lasting pact has to be with a Trusted Vestige, it limits them to 7th level, so if they want to have 9th-level powers always available they have to take the risk of daily binding checks, so the DC of that check and the effects of failing can be used to balance the powers against each other. More powerful ability, higher DC and/or more inconvenient effects. Nothing crippling, but still enough to make the player think about it. Examples from 3.5 include an inability to lie, intense distrust of authority, an unwillingness to participate in theft or use stolen items, etc. In combat these are less important, but if the player has acted against these constraints recently, then that would impose penalties on things like initiative or damage rolls, and I do intend to bring that sort of thing into the 5e version. These penalties would be small (having a class that's crippled for a day if you fail a few checks in the morning is rather harsh) but still, no player likes it when their numbers get smaller, so it'll make them think twice about overstretching, and give players a reason to not just always bind the strongest vestiges they can get.

I've updated the pact augmentation stuff to be somewhat like a warlock's invocations. I tried not to have these provide any real ability-type stuff, because that should really come from the vestiges themselves.

[Prince Zahn]

True; the once-per-long-rest restriction will help. What I meant is that I don't really want to let the player have a 9th-level vestige always available at no risk - the core of Trusted Vestige is to reduce the risk of using a certain set of abilities that you've come to favour. By allowing them to make a binding last indefinitely, it means they can remove the risk entirely.Yes, but at the cost of flexibility: keeping your high-level vestige active means that swapping him out when you really need to will be costly with regards to the total vestige levels you can have bound. Sooner or later, the binder might swap out this "longterm pact" for a different, lower level one. Until he needs the longterm pact slot for a strong vestige again. Perhaps, to make things easier still, you could limit it to vestiges of up to 5th level, instead.


By saying that the lasting pact has to be with a Trusted Vestige, it limits them to 7th level, so if they want to have 9th-level powers always available they have to take the risk of daily binding checks, so the DC of that check and the effects of failing can be used to balance the powers against each other. More powerful ability, higher DC and/or more inconvenient effects. Nothing crippling, but still enough to make the player think about it. that being said, you don't want players to think about it to the point they chicken out from using a stronger vestige just because of it's side effects :smallconfused: you could perhaps work with the existing system for traits/ideals/bonds (but nothing severe, like a flaw) to create your vestige's influence, perhaps to the point that playing by them can earn you inspiration. :smallsmile:

Examples from 3.5 include an inability to lie, intense distrust of authority, an unwillingness to participate in theft or use stolen items, etc. In combat these are less important, but if the player has acted against these constraints recently, then that would impose penalties on things like initiative or damage rolls, and I do intend to bring that sort of thing into the 5e version. These penalties would be small (having a class that's crippled for a day if you fail a few checks in the morning is rather harsh)Disadvantage on ability checks while bound to a vestige who's pact you broke, perhaps?

but still, no player likes it when their numbers get smaller, so it'll make them think twice about overstretching, and give players a reason to not just always bind the strongest vestiges they can get. in 3.5, you couldn't bind certain vestiges while bound to other ones. You could replicate that to avoid unbalanced vestige combinations, like WotC did. Just avoid "ignore special requirement", please? :P


I've updated the pact augmentation stuff to be somewhat like a warlock's invocations. I tried not to have these provide any real ability-type stuff, because that should really come from the vestiges themselves. some of them have no purpose to be taken multiple times, so you may want to fix the wording. I like what you did with the armor class, in the end. It's cute and can help out high DEX/ low STR builds, as well as low economy campaigns and unarmored binders. Might I suggest, that vestiges that give you free AC offer some kind of other aid, like opponents having disadvantage on attack rolls, or the shield spell X/short rest.

Lastly, would you like my help with making those vestiges? I thought I should ask because again - I love pact magic, and want to help.:smallbiggrin:

[anaximander19]

Yes, but at the cost of flexibility: keeping your high-level vestige active means that swapping him out when you really need to will be costly with regards to the total vestige levels you can have bound. Sooner or later, the binder might swap out this "longterm pact" for a different, lower level one. Until he needs the longterm pact slot for a strong vestige again. Perhaps, to make things easier still, you could limit it to vestiges of up to 5th level, instead.Good point; I think I'm happy with that working as you described. I'll write it up.


that being said, you don't want players to think about it to the point they chicken out from using a stronger vestige just because of it's side effects :smallconfused: you could perhaps work with the existing system for traits/ideals/bonds (but nothing severe, like a flaw) to create your vestige's influence, perhaps to the point that playing by them can earn you inspiration. :smallsmile:I agree totally; the aim here is enough that players pause for thought, but not enough to discourage them entirely. I love the idea of having the vestiges apply traits/ideals/bonds - I'll totally use that.


in 3.5, you couldn't bind certain vestiges while bound to other ones. You could replicate that to avoid unbalanced vestige combinations, like WotC did.I originally was planning to deliberately not do that, but I've recently started to reverse that decision. I think it's safest to leave that option open for balancing, and also there's some interesting fluff to it.


some of them have no purpose to be taken multiple times, so you may want to fix the wording. I like what you did with the armor class, in the end. It's cute and can help out high DEX/ low STR builds, as well as low economy campaigns and unarmored binders. Might I suggest, that vestiges that give you free AC offer some kind of other aid, like opponents having disadvantage on attack rolls, or the shield spell X/short rest.Yeah, I'm ok with some being not worth taking again, although I suppose I could find ways to allow it - having multiple illusory effects at once, or having your vision go from regular darkvision to vision in magical darkness to true seeing... worth some thought.


Lastly, would you like my help with making those vestiges? I thought I should ask because again - I love pact magic, and want to help.:smallbiggrin:If you'd like to, that'd be great! The idea of converting 46 vestiges is somewhat daunting, but I not doing all of them would feel too much like leaving it unfinished. If you want to lend a hand I would definitely appreciate it; the template is in the first post (although I might alter it at some point if it turns out to not work so well).

[Prince Zahn]

Cool, I'll try to get started on it tomorrow of Friday :smallsmile: in particular I have a score to settle with some 1st level vestiges in Tome of Magic. particularly Leraje and Ronove, who are exceptionally disappointing.

Are there any vestiges in particular that are high-priority? Perhaps faves of your binder? And also knowing why might help.

One more question - where would a Vestige's special ability (see:Trusted Vestige) go, and what kind of stuff would we do with it?

[anaximander19]

I'd actually forgotten about a vestige's special ability, and when I was reminded earlier today, I started thinking maybe I'll drop it and instead find some other way to buff a Trusted Vestige. Not sure what yet. For now, ignore that part. I had some ideas for archetypes tonight, so perhaps they'll tie in with Trusted Vestiges and give archetype-specific extras.

Our binder is 5th level, so it's the first few levels of vestiges that need doing soonest; no particular favourites except perhaps Andras, the Grey Knight.

[The_Doctor]

If you're looking, I actually have a PDF of all th vestiges Wizards made that aren't in the ToM. If you'd care I can post the Dropbox link.

[Scarce]

Are there any vestiges in particular that are high-priority? Perhaps faves of your binder?

I loved Tenebrous in 3.5. The shadow-based mechanics were crazy fun, and layered well with a warlock who's taken Devil Sight. Also, Flicker starts to lay the pieces for a caster who uses shadows to conceal the battlefield, and just kinda vanishes into more darkness when someone gets close.

[anaximander19]

I'm going away for a week and will have basically zero internet access, so don't be surprised when this thread falls quiet. I'm taking my DM notebook with me though, so I'll keep working on this and hopefully I'll have some stuff to post when I get back - possibly including some archetypes.

[Prince Zahn]

I'd actually forgotten about a vestige's special ability, and when I was reminded earlier today, I started thinking maybe I'll drop it and instead find some other way to buff a Trusted Vestige. Not sure what yet. For now, ignore that part. I had some ideas for archetypes tonight, so perhaps they'll tie in with Trusted Vestiges and give archetype-specific extras. if you plan to do it depending on the vestige, it's a lot of effort either way.
@Doctor: I'd imagine it would be a most welcome reference to have:smallsmile:, even though non-ToM vestiges aren't a priority to me just yet.

Our binder is 5th level, so it's the first few levels of vestiges that need doing soonest; no particular favourites except perhaps Andras, the Grey Knight. I'll see what I can get done. Do you want me to post vestiges here, or would you rather I PM'd?


I loved Tenebrous in 3.5. The shadow-based mechanics were crazy fun, and layered well with a warlock who's taken Devil Sight. Also, Flicker starts to lay the pieces for a caster who uses shadows to conceal the battlefield, and just kinda vanishes into more darkness when someone gets close. Tenebrous is great, but I'd need to do research first, since flicker, per se, is nonexistent in 5e. It's really too early to reliably take requests, but if this homebrew takes flight, the 5e binder should undoubtedly have all of the converted ToM vestiges available, at least, and though I'm only helping out, I want to make them all fun to play :3


I'm going away for a week and will have basically zero internet access, so don't be surprised when this thread falls quiet. I'm taking my DM notebook with me though, so I'll keep working on this and hopefully I'll have some stuff to post when I get back - possibly including some archetypes.have fun! I'll be here regardless and see if I can keep a discussion going about the class :3 still, come back when you can!

[The_Doctor]

Ok. I'll throw the link up.

I also have a PDF of the ToM if you're interested.

Here you go. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud5qk22x034jgqk/ToM%20Additional%20Vestiges.pdf?dl=0)

[BRKNdevil]

there is also the missing Ability Score Improvement at level 19

[Prince Zahn]

Ok. I'll throw the link up.

I also have a PDF of the ToM if you're interested.

Here you go. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ud5qk22x034jgqk/ToM%20Additional%20Vestiges.pdf?dl=0)

This is really awesome! Thanks!
*never knew before that there were campaign-specific vestiges*:smallredface:

I have the ToM on my bookshelf, so it's not crucial right now.
As of right now I'm cross-referencing between the ToM and the 5E PHB. I may have a few questions for Anaximander by the time he gets back, including vestiges we might bump up a level to make room for 9th level power


there is also the missing Ability Score Improvement at level 19

:smalleek:
Must've missed that, you're right!

Does anyone have any other thoughts, comments, ideas, critiques?

[Spiriah]

Does anyone have any other thoughts, comments, ideas, critiques?

I'm really liking the class. Tried to port the binder over to 5e myself, but didn't get anything nearly as complete as this.
Just looking forward to seeing the vestiges. Otiax, Focalor, and Orthos are personal favorites, if you're looking for recommendations.

[Prince Zahn]

I'm really liking the class. Tried to port the binder over to 5e myself, but didn't get anything nearly as complete as this.
I was thinking about making a 5e binder myself before I stumbled on the thread :smallsmile: frankly, even after the 5e binder is complete I would find a way to deviate from it - homebrew vestiges, fiddling with binder lore/theory... A DM of mine even had an idea of having vestiges bear half an alignment, which could change how pacts with them are formed, and what their legends may tell in a given campaign, among others things.

But I think it's a little too much work for me and Anaximander19 at this stage.:smalltongue:

Just looking forward to seeing the vestiges. Otiax, Focalor, and Orthos are personal favorites, if you're looking for recommendations. I share your fondness of Focalor, Spiriah! The others may be a little less of a priority, since I've been asked to focus on early-level vestiges first.
I've currently only drafts for vestiges closest to me (or that I'm most eager to reinvent): Leraje, Malphas, Paimon, Andromalius, and possibly Tenebrous and Dantalion coming up next (I'm a little scattered with my notes so it takes some time), I do have one vestige, ready enough, though, so we can see how this template might function:

NABERIUS
The Grinning Hound
1st Level Vestige
Seal: A carefully drawn hand or paw-shaped symbol, facing your left with claws leaning in your direction, and various circles drawn across the seal - notably three on the right side that appear to resemble the claw's joints. sages believe the circles actually hint towards the many secrets he hides, and the power they place within his grasp.
Sign: your voice deepens and sounds hoarse, and you tone often seems to more harsh and intimidating than normal.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES:
For as long as you remain bound to Naberius, you gain the following proficiencies:
Skills: choose one from the following: Intimidation, Deception, or investigation.
Tools:You gain proficiency with one type of artisan's tools of your choice.

Silver Tongue
you gain the friends cantrip, and can cast it at will.

Disguise Self
You can cast Disguise Self once without expending a spell slot. Once you have done so successfully, you must finish a short or long rest before you can cast it again.

Persuasive Words
You can cast command without spending a spell slot. You cast it just as a cleric of your binder level who expends her highest-level spell slot would. If you cast command this way, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.

PACT INFORMATION:
Very little is known about Naberius, as folklore leads to various potential origins. He does not answer questions regarding his legend, instead giving only a sly smile when being questioned. That being said, Naberius does not like to be interrupted, and such lack of respect imposes disadvantage on Charisma checks when binding him. With that in mind, Naberius enjoys hearing secrets, mischief and gossip, and telling him one of your upkept secrets can often please him, assuming you have not told this information to him before.
If you make a poor pact with Naberius, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways

Personality Trait: I relish the sound of my voice, and how sophisticated I sound. I can enjoy it for hours.
Personality Trait: If you give me the opportunity to speak, I will not share it with others until I'm done. Never try to take it away from me.


mind you, this is mostly for visualization, though I wouldn't mind feedback... :smallredface:I could not help but experiment with a few details not quite in the vestige template. But if the OP would ask me to remove them, or if they wind up being counterproductive, I'll stick with the original pattern.

[Spiriah]

mind you, this is mostly for visualization, though I wouldn't mind feedback... :smallredface:I could not help but experiment with a few details not quite in the vestige template. But if the OP would ask me to remove them, or if they wind up being counterproductive, I'll stick with the original pattern.
Honestly, at least at early levels, this seems kinda weak. Granted, part of what makes binders special is their absurd versatility, and you could choose to bind Naberius for social things or Amon for combat or what have you, but like 99% of what Naberius can do, a first or second-level warlock can do better.

A 'lock could take Friends(in addition to EB), and would also get Disguise Self at-will at 2nd level. The Command is pretty strong at higher levels, but at early levels, all the binder is capable of doing with Naberius is casting Friends, being marginally better at skills than normal, disguising once every couple encounters, and once per day having a decent disable spell.

I dunno, it might just be that Naberius isn't combat-focused and is a first-level vestige at that, but it seems like a bit of a letdown that your entire skillset could be replicated by another class that would also have the game's best attack cantrip.

Personally, I think the vestige format needs a slight change. As-is, there's not really a way to include many passive abilities aside from profs and minor class features, and the class doesn't really have any consistent combat options. Again, more fighty vestiges would have more in that department, but at best they have only a cantrip and a warlock-style slot limited to one spell available consistently. I dunno if there's a way to get 3.5's recharge system to fit in with 5e, but that kept the abilities from being spammed (and kinda forced you to cycle through them) while keeping them strong.

I dunno. It's just that 5e has made first-level characters comparatively stronger than first-levels in previous editions, and this class should probably try to fit in with that.

[Prince Zahn]

Honestly, at least at early levels, this seems kinda weak. Granted, part of what makes binders special is their absurd versatility, and you could choose to bind Naberius for social things or Amon for combat or what have you, but like 99% of what Naberius can do, a first or second-level warlock can do better.

A 'lock could take Friends(in addition to EB), and would also get Disguise Self at-will at 2nd level. The Command is pretty strong at higher levels, but at early levels, all the binder is capable of doing with Naberius is casting Friends, being marginally better at skills than normal, disguising once every couple encounters, and once per day having a decent disable spell.

I dunno, it might just be that Naberius isn't combat-focused and is a first-level vestige at that, but it seems like a bit of a letdown that your entire skillset could be replicated by another class that would also have the game's best attack cantrip.I get the warlock thing as far as power is concerned, and will think about what what me and the OP could do to keep the binder at odds with other classes, but I'm not entirely sure the warlock, who's best advantage is the strongest cantrip in the game and excels via at-will abilities, is the best example - since when has Naberius offered you any damage abilities?
Granted, you have command once per long rest which is usable in combat, but he isn't a combat vestige. I'm sorry if you expected the grinning hound to offer a bite attack :smalltongue:


Personally, I think the vestige format needs a slight change. As-is, there's not really a way to include many passive abilities aside from profs and minor class features, and the class doesn't really have any consistent combat options. Again, more fighty vestiges would have more in that department, but at best they have only a cantrip and a warlock-style slot limited to one spell available consistently. I dunno if there's a way to get 3.5's recharge system to fit in with 5e, but that kept the abilities from being spammed (and kinda forced you to cycle through them) while keeping them strong. a wizard doesn't have much going for him, either, if you discount his spells.:smallconfused: the fact that there's only one vestige posted at this time, and that it wasn't a predictable sample like Amon, will not mean the binder will fail in a combat.I won't allow it to.
I will give you one thing, though - I think the binder should his own gimmick, rather than follow others examples.
Lastly, skills have a greater, more appreciated role in 5 then 3.5, if you somehow find a way to get more than 4 skills is considered much more valuable. If the level binder got 5 vestiges that each gave him a skill, he could have as many as 10 different skills:smalleek:, feats and downtime notwithstanding.
If we as adding skills it would require caution, come to think of it.^_^;;;;


I dunno. It's just that 5e has made first-level characters comparatively stronger than first-levels in previous editions, and this class should probably try to fit in with that.A great point. :smallwink: the game's progression is no longer linear like in previous editions - by it's own nature, you get more early- and mid- level class abilities than late ones.

Anything else? Anyone else?

[Spiriah]

I get the warlock thing as far as power is concerned, and will think about what what me and the OP could do to keep the binder at odds with other classes, but I'm not entirely sure the warlock, who's best advantage is the strongest cantrip in the game and excels via at-will abilities, is the best example - since when has Naberius offered you any damage abilities?
Granted, you have command once per long rest which is usable in combat, but he isn't a combat vestige. I'm sorry if you expected the grinning hound to offer a bite attack :smalltongue:
It's not that Naberius isn't a combat vestige - he's obviously built for socializing it up and being a party face. It's just that Naberius isn't really giving you significant benefit in filling the social role he's made for.

Friends doesn't really help you socially in any situation where you're dealing with someone you don't plan on murdering after it wears off, and any Binder probably has already taken Deception (assuming it's available - I can't seem to find the skills list?) in order to weasel their way out of religious persecution, if that part of the lore's being carried over to 5e.

I made the Warlock comparison due to it being another class with spells that recharged on short rests. Maybe it's not the most apt comparison, as the two classes sit rather far apart in terms of versatility, but as it stands, binding Naberius doesn't seem to give any significant social benefit.


a wizard doesn't have much going for him, either, if you discount his spells.:smallconfused: the fact that there's only one vestige posted at this time, and that it wasn't a predictable sample like Amon, will not mean the binder will fail in a combat.I won't allow it to.
The issue I was trying to address is more that, at first level, a Binder has basic weapon and armor proficiency, two passives such as languages or maybe skill/weapon proficiencies from a vestige, one cantrip, one (effectively) warlock-like spell, and one (again, effectively) cleric/wizard spell.

To compare it to another class that has spells, a first level wizard may lose the armor and some of the weapon profs, but in return has three cantrips, six available spells, two of which can be cast from a list of (int mod plus one) prepared. That's a lot more options available at once, as well as more spells throughout the day (especially after Arcane Recovery). This was part of why I made the Warlock comparison - Warlocks have short rest recharge spells, potentially some long-rest abilities, and light armor and simple weapons. A bard would also be somewhat similar - same equipment profs, and a rather versatile skillset.

A lot of the Binder's strength is being a jack of all trades, but I think the existing format for vestige powers makes it too much of a "master of none", in that it has few methods of contributing in any meaningful way. It could be that there's only Naberius posted as of now, but I think that the Binder needs to have its core class feature be a bit stronger and more distinct, rather than being "you can take these weaker things from other classes and use them interchangeably." How's Paimon or Dahlver Nar, with their pretty unique abilities, going to be represented by borrowing spells and class features.

I will give you one thing, though - I think the binder should his own gimmick, rather than follow others examples. Yeah, this.


Lastly, skills have a greater, more appreciated role in 5 then 3.5, if you somehow find a way to get more than 4 skills is considered much more valuable. If the level binder got 5 vestiges that each gave him a skill, he could have as many as 10 different skills:smalleek:, feats and downtime notwithstanding.
If we as adding skills it would require caution, come to think of it.^_^;;;;
Fair point on the skills, but how likely are you to run into knowledge-related checks, thievery, social business, and/or a bunch of other skill stuff in one session? Furthermore, if you've bound into a full skillmonkey set of vestiges, what're you doing for combat? I mean obviously some combat vestiges would give skills, but going by your description, it seems the binder in question would be entirely skill-focused.


A great point. :smallwink: the game's progression is no longer linear like in previous editions - by it's own nature, you get more early- and mid- level class abilities than late ones.

My thoughts on this have kind of been explained above - but to clarify, I think that Naberius needs a bit of a power boost in order to make level one binders who use him capable party members in their intended social role, regardles of if their in-combat role is limited to crossbowing it up from a distance.

Kinda got wall-of-texty there. Hope some of what I had to say is useful.

[Prince Zahn]

First thing's first: my apologies for not quoting where necessary, as my old mobile isn't giving me an easy life as it is. Also, this information and criticism is important, I hope you guys keep me, and the OP, (and anyone else who wants to help) on our toes, for as long as you help us make the 5e Binder worthy of the name "Pact Magic":smallcool:

Even though Anaximander won't be back for a few more days, I'm planning some suggestions on how the OP could improve the class model. Among them is a change on how many vestiges you can have bound at a given level, and talk about making adjustments to the vestige template that might be less "1 size fits all". I aim for it to be a step in the right direction.

@Naberius - Frankly, I don't know for certain either what skills the Binder would have. So I work with guessing.:smallredface: But it's not an intended implication about me wanting the binder to be skill-heavy (at least not at this point) but an observation in the current design - the options for passive abilities include skill proficiencies. And I point out that it can get pretty messy as we go along. My current thoughts at this point involve offering advantage on thematically appropriate checks. In Paimon's example, I don't feel at ease adding an increase to dexterity or handing out skills. Instead, I may start giving the dancer theme in the form of a free ribbon, and might look something like this:

While wielding a finesse weapon*, You have advantage on all Dexterity (Acrobatics) and Charisma (Performance) checks made to dance, tumble or whirl.
I'm still working on Paimon, He's not as easy as I thought, since his signature dance (move+attack everyone you move past) is something any melee-fighting character can already do in 5e. I'm currently trying to think up an innovative solution with him. :smallconfused:

Finally, if you have suggestions or comments on what I could do to improve the vestige, I'm all ears.

[Spiriah]

First thing's first: my apologies for not quoting where necessary, as my old mobile isn't giving me an easy life as it is. Also, this information and criticism is important, I hope you guys keep me, and the OP, (and anyone else who wants to help) on our toes, for as long as you help us make the 5e Binder worthy of the name "Pact Magic":smallcool:
No worries on the quotes. Also, thanks for appreciating my input. It means a lot to be able to contribute to the updating of one of 3.5's coolest classes.


Even though Anaximander won't be back for a few more days, I'm planning some suggestions on how the OP could improve the class model. Among them is a change on how many vestiges you can have bound at a given level, and talk about making adjustments to the vestige template that might be less "1 size fits all". I aim for it to be a step in the right direction.
Yeah, this was one of my concerns, too, and I think that making vestiges less "one size fits all" would be a step in the right direction. Maybe make the abilities more guidelines than hard rules - X number of minor abilities, X number of slightly stronger powers, and then one big power? Guess I'll wait to see what you've got before offering critique in that department.


@Naberius - Frankly, I don't know for certain either what skills the Binder would have. So I work with guessing.:smallredface: But it's not an intended implication about me wanting the binder to be skill-heavy (at least not at this point) but an observation in the current design - the options for passive abilities include skill proficiencies. And I point out that it can get pretty messy as we go along. My current thoughts at this point involve offering advantage on thematically appropriate checks.
I wasn't saying that Binder would automatically be skill-heavy - was referring to you bringing up the possibility of up to 10 skills being availagle to Binders. And I think the advantage on appropriate checks would work quite well - fits Naberius's 3.5 powerset better than casting Friends.


In Paimon's example, I don't feel at ease adding an increase to dexterity or handing out skills. Instead, I may start giving the dancer theme in the form of a free ribbon, and might look something like this:
I'm still working on Paimon, He's not as easy as I thought, since his signature dance (move+attack everyone you move past) is something any melee-fighting character can already do in 5e. I'm currently trying to think up an innovative solution with him. :smallconfused:Yeah, a Dex bonus is kind of out of the question for 5e - I haven't really found anything that modifies stats besides, say, intellect devourers. I think that something that prevents/disadvantages opportunity attacks might be a good component of Paimon's powerset, though I don't know how to implement his Dance of Death. He'd probably also need some form of extra attacks.

[The_Doctor]

You're welcome.

We don't need level 9 vestiges, do we? The old binders were just fine without them.

I'll be trying to convert an existing vestige myself later today.

[Prince Zahn]

STILL EDITING 1 second done
No worries on the quotes. Also, thanks for appreciating my input. It means a lot to be able to contribute to the updating of one of 3.5's coolest classes. my pleasure :smallsmile:


Yeah, this was one of my concerns, too, and I think that making vestiges less "one size fits all" would be a step in the right direction. Maybe make the abilities more guidelines than hard rules - X number of minor abilities, X number of slightly stronger powers, and then one big power? Guess I'll wait to see what you've got before offering critique in that department. also a valid suggestion:smallcool: I'm gonna steal it!:smallwink::smalltongue:


I wasn't saying that Binder would automatically be skill-heavy - was referring to you bringing up the possibility of up to 10 skills being available to Binders. And I think the advantage on appropriate checks would work quite well - [B{fits Naberius's 3.5 powerset better than casting Friends.[/B] message received. the friends cantrip is off the table. curiosity, what do you think of Vicious Mockery? I thought it was very thematically appropriate given his influence, but I can't tell it's value as a Cantrip. And I still want to hand out Cantrips.

Yeah, a Dex bonus is kind of out of the question for 5e - I haven't really found anything that modifies stats besides, say, intellect devourers. I think that something that prevents/disadvantages opportunity attacks might be a good component of Paimon's powerset, though I don't know how to implement his Dance of Death. He'd probably also need some form of extra attacks. extra attacks are a neat idea, but there should only be one vestige IMO that gives a consistent extra attack. At best, a high level vestige might add an "extra attack; but with conditions" to cap the binder at 3 attacks/round.
Another option is to just GIVE the binder chart an extra attack at level 5 (when Paimon is available), and worry about second extra attack/(conditional) from a high level tier vestige.


You're welcome.

We don't need level 9 vestiges, do we? The old binders were just fine without them.

I'll be trying to convert an existing vestige myself later today.The OP insisted justly on vestiges peaking at 9th level, because it's weird that by level 17-20 the binder is stuck with 8th level vestiges when all the big spellcasters get level 9 spells. Also, 9th level vestiges would probably be easier to compare with the power of 9th level spells.

Also - cool! Which one? :3

[Prince Zahn]

NABERIUS
The Grinning Hound
1st Level Vestige
Seal: A carefully drawn hand or paw-shaped symbol, facing your left with claws leaning in your direction, and various circles drawn across the seal - notably three on the right side that appear to resemble the claw's joints. sages believe the circles actually hint towards the many secrets he hides, and the power they place within his grasp.
Sign: your voice deepens and sounds hoarse, and you tone often seems to more harsh and intimidating than normal.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES:
Tools: One type of artisan's tools of your choice.

LEVERAGE
You have advantage on all Intelligence and Charisma checks made to deliver, discover or withhold potentially useful information.

NOBLE BLOODHOUND
You can spend 1 round to "sniff out" the general direction of, and proximity of the highest authority figure (or one of them), or most influential figure in a group of creatures within 100 feet for the round. Doing so requires an intelligence(Investigation) check contested by the creature's Dexterity (stealth) check. This ability works around corners, but powerful odors or magical effects might mislead or block this unique sense. You can continue to track the leading creature for another round by spending 1 action concentrating on the sense.

NABERIUS'S SNARL
You gain the Vicious Mockery cantrip, and can cast it at will.

DISGUISE SELF You can cast Disguise Self without expending a spell slot. Casting the spell in this fashion requires 1 minute.

PERSUASIVE WORDS
You can cast Command without expending a spell slot. You cast it as if using a spell slot of the highest level vestige you have bound. At 14th level, you can instead cast Suggestion in the same fashion if you are also bound to a vestige that is 3rd level or higher. Once this ability in either method, you can not do so again until you have completed a long rest.

PACT INFORMATION:
Very little is known about Naberius, as folklore leads to various potential origins. He does not answer questions regarding his legend, instead giving only a sly smile when being questioned. That being said, Naberius does not like to be interrupted, and such lack of respect imposes disadvantage on Charisma checks when binding him. With that in mind, Naberius enjoys hearing secrets, mischief and gossip, and telling him one of your upkept secrets can often please him, assuming you have not told this information to him before.
If you make a poor pact with Naberius, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:



Influence


Personality Trait
I relish the sound of my voice, and how sophisticated I sound. I can enjoy it for hours.


Personality Trait:
I'd take any opportunity to speak to large groups, and I will not willingly share it.



VESTIGIAL NEWS:
Naberius
As mentioned above, I'm still stubborn on making a worthy version of Naberius with little to compare to but the PHB and the old ToM.
I won't go fully into details yet about the thoughts behind this version. For the most part I'm mostly interested in knowing if this is a step in the right direction, or if I need to go back to the drawing board. I'm also open to suggestions as well as constructive critique.

Paimon
Business is slow, but progress is being made. I'm currently thinking of using a variation of combat superiority that focuses on finesse weapons (but with preset maneuvers, sorry! :X)
I'm building The Dance of Death after a limited/check-requiring form of Haste, and as a thought experiment I'm giving him the cantrip Blade Ward which I imagine that coupled with the former spell could be a cool combo.

Amon:
Frankly, I don't believe we can have a binder without Amon :smalltongue: he's practically the first vestige we meet and appears in multiple Binder pictures. Now for business - the fact that Amon has so few granted abilities makes him require a little more love and creativity on our part. And I'm sort of looking for ideas for new abilities he may have in the new edition. One thing I thought about doing is giving advantage in contest rolls against fiends and celestials (if I recall, shoving a target/bull rushing is a contest :smallwink:). And that at some high level this advantage will also apply against other binders, making Amon an interesting vestige choice when forced to face one of your own class. If you have any thoughts or ideas about this particular vestige let me know.

Acererak
Went into the Tomb of horrors and took a Selfie too close to the sphere of annihilation. Didn't go very well but I hope to do better next time.:smalltongue: no other news yet!

[Spiriah]

Not gonna fuss around with quotes, and apologies for the slow reply. Had a lot to do in the previous few days. Pretty sure you can match up each of these points to the relevant quote, though.

I really like Vicious Mockery for Naberius. As you said, very thematic, and it's a pretty good cantrip with an uncommon damage type and inflicting disadvantage. Seems like Naberius binders can take a kind of support/debuff role in combat with VM and Command, and that's neat.

Dunno about only one vestige granting extra attacks, but I do think if there are multiple that do then they have to not stack. I do like the idea of "if X conditions are met you get a bonus attack". Maybe give Paimon something along those lines, perhaps something that fits the same kind of role as Mobile? If you hit an enemy, they can't AOO you and you get an attack you can use against a different enemy?

I'm really liking the Naberius rework. Going to go through each feature below:

Flavor Text: Not much to say here, seems similar to the 3.5 version.

Proficiencies: Good. Fits with the existing fluff on Naberius and skills, and from a mechanics perspective lets you do some additional crafting stuff with the rarer artisan tools.

Leverage: I really like this. Advantage is strong, but it's balanced out by the conditions/limitations. Very fitting of Naberius, IMO.

Naberius's Snarl: See comments on VM above.

Disguise Self: This works well, I think. Nice middleground between "at-will in-combat disguise" and "i need to short rest to swap disguises". Requires some forethought on what you're going to do/who you're disguising as.

Persuasive Words: I also believe I talked about Command in a previous post. Addition of Suggestion fits with 3.5, but the requirement of both a certain binder level and a certain vestige level strikes me as kind of odd. Dunno your reasoning behind it though, so it's probably like that for a reason. Care to elaborate?

Pact Information: See Flavor Text above. Somewhat reminds me of the background-specific Flaws.
Other stuff: I think this new Naberius is certainly a step in the right direction. Keep going with it. Interesting ideas on Paimon as well. My take on his Dance is up above. As for Amon, besides ram horns and fire I'm not sure what direction to go with him. The anti-Binder stuff is an interesting take, especially given his dislike of some other vestiges.

[Prince Zahn]

I wanted to save this idea for when Anaximander19 came back, but I don't want to forget it a second time: A friend of mine pointed out an interesting innovation for the 5e binder, which could save us quite a bit of work - the idea is that vestiges of key levels could be exclusively divided into sets that build a common theme for a binder (via subclasses). While keeping some of the other vestiges universal. it might hurt the binder's overall versatility a bit, but it would be in exchange for distinction and color, (plus we would likely need to recreate a lot less vestiges.:smalltongue::smallredface:)
If this idea takes flight, It would probably help to know from as many pact magic fans who want to help:


Execution of abilities from 3.5 notwithstanding, What vestiges in the ToM do you want to see in the 5e binder?



Not gonna fuss around with quotes, and apologies for the slow reply. Had a lot to do in the previous few days. Not offended. Welcome to the club! There's snacks and hot drinks on your left. :smallwink::smalltongue:


I really like Vicious Mockery for Naberius. As you said, very thematic, and it's a pretty good cantrip with an uncommon damage type and inflicting disadvantage. Seems like Naberius binders can take a kind of support/debuff role in combat with VM and Command, and that's neat. I didn't think about psychic damage being uncommon, frankly. Though it did occur to me this was a bard-only cantrip. The desire to use Naberius to magically bark on somebody's ego was too tempting :smalltongue:


Dunno about only one vestige granting extra attacks, but I do think if there are multiple that do then they have to not stack. I do like the idea of "if X conditions are met you get a bonus attack". Maybe give Paimon something along those lines, perhaps something that fits the same kind of role as Mobile? If you hit an enemy, they can't AOO you and you get an attack you can use against a different enemy? funny, one of the things I was thinking about was giving the binder a built-in extra attack at level 5 anyway, and having another vestige at a higher level provide the third attack if you wish to focus on being combatant.


I'm really liking the Naberius rework. Going to go through each feature below:

*snip* It's good if the fluff resembles that of 3.5, or more accurately - resembles that of D&D. I'm less into reinventing what isn't necessary, given the degree that the ToM vestiges pay homage to game's history, or are inspired by real demonological figures. It wouldn't feel right to change that. But I would nevertheless consider the option to reinterpret a vestige if I think it'll help creatively.

@Leverage, it's either that our expertise, as far as my thought process goes. But I'm not sure a level 1 binder is ready for that yet.

@DS: it's worth mentioning that this is not a dismissable spell. Once your disguised, you stay disguised for a whole hour. If you need to shake off the disguise, Best you can probably do is replace the illusion. Also - I'm glad I found a good solution, because DS can't be a ritual either! Even though it would have made my life easier...:smallfrown:

Unfortunately I'm not eager to elaborate just yet on persuasive words, but I did just realize that suggestion is but a 2nd level spell now. Will make changes in my notes, if not here yet, later.

:smallconfused:... Oddly enough, the one ability I was most hesitant about experimenting seems to go unmentioned. I guess that goes to show something about how it blends in.:smalltongue:


Other stuff: I think this new Naberius is certainly a step in the right direction. Keep going with it. Interesting ideas on Paimon as well. My take on his Dance is up above. As for Amon, besides ram horns and fire I'm not sure what direction to go with him. The anti-Binder stuff is an interesting take, especially given his dislike of some other vestiges. I'm gonna see what I can do to fine tune Cerberus, here. But he's less of a priority for now since he has better structure than before.

I'm still thinking about and working on Amon and Paimon, and oddly enough Malphas, as invisibility has a lot of potential, and his affinity for poisonmaking could make him great with the downtime mechanic.
It also occurred to me that there's a 7th or 8th level vestige that gives you bonuses for using siege weapons at really high levels. It makes me wonder just how necessary this is, and surprised how scattered the binder is compared to what he could be.

[Spiriah]

I wanted to save this idea for when Anaximander19 came back, but I don't want to forget it a second time: A friend of mine pointed out an interesting innovation for the 5e binder, which could save us quite a bit of work - the idea is that vestiges of key levels could be exclusively divided into sets that build a common theme for a binder (via subclasses). While keeping some of the other vestiges universal. it might hurt the binder's overall versatility a bit, but it would be in exchange for distinction and color, (plus we would likely need to recreate a lot less vestiges.:smalltongue::smallredface:)
If this idea takes flight, It would probably help to know from as many pact magic fans who want to help:


Execution of abilities from 3.5 notwithstanding, What vestiges in the ToM do you want to see in the 5e binder?
Hm. Not sure how I feel about limiting vestiges via subclass. One of the coolest things about the Binder, IMO, is that crazy versatility that comes with having access to all the vestiges. Would have to see what you have planned for those subclasses, though.

My current ideas for subclasses are adapting Anima Mage and Knight of the Sacred Seal into individual subclasses (like assassin changed from a prestige class to a rogue subclass), and adding something more "generic" that possibly deals with swapping vestiges, but there's the renegotiation feature now so I dunno about that.

As for vestiges I'd want to see, there's the aforementioned Otiax, Focalor, and Orthos, as well as Dahlver-Nar and Buer.



funny, one of the things I was thinking about was giving the binder a built-in extra attack at level 5 anyway, and having another vestige at a higher level provide the third attack if you wish to focus on being combatant.
I'd support giving Binder a second attack at 5. There are enough vestiges that buff combat to set a precedent for it.



:smallconfused:... Oddly enough, the one ability I was most hesitant about experimenting seems to go unmentioned. I guess that goes to show something about how it blends in.:smalltongue:

Shoot, I forgot to mention that. Noble Bloodhound seems interesting, and I could certainly think up uses for it. Pretty Naberius-themed, too.



It also occurred to me that there's a 7th or 8th level vestige that gives you bonuses for using siege weapons at really high levels. It makes me wonder just how necessary this is, and surprised how scattered the binder is compared to what he could be.
Which one? Can't seem to find it. Thought it might've been Halphax, but it isn't.

[anaximander19]

I'm back!

It seems you've been busy in my absence... I'm going to try to respond to as much of it as possible, and then I'll add my new stuff as a separate post once I've assembled it a little.

First, I'd just like to say that I really like where vestiges are heading.

I like the use of traits for the poor pact influences; 5e's trait/ideal/bond/flaw system is cool and making use of it is a great idea. Traits and flaws in particular fit perfectly with the way vestiges affect a binder's personality, and the mechanic is already there to incentivise roleplaying them.

The idea of casting spells at higher-level slots isn't something I'd thought of, but I like it. It makes the lower-level vestiges still useful at higher levels.

Now, this part is crucial: as some people have started to suggest, the vestige template is intended to be more guidelines than actual rules. This means a few things:

The number of abilities can change a little, so (for example) a vestige could have a couple extra proficiencies, or an extra per-short-rest spell, or something
The power of abilities could change, so a 6th-level might have a 2nd-level spell and a 4th-level spell as the minor powers, rather than a pair of 3rd-levels
Perhaps most importantly, the listed options are guidelines, not a complete and specific list. So where it says "2x languages, proficiencies, skills, etc" or "1 spell of half the vestige's level" or whatever, all of these should include the phrase "...or other ability of similar power".


That last point is crucial. A Binder is a jack-of-all-trades, and the easiest way to do that is to pick and mix things from other classes - but it's also the most boring, and the most likely to tread on other classes' toes. I'd much prefer it if there were abilities you could only get by being a Binder and choosing the right vestiges. (That said, it's important to remember the 5e design principle "things should be the same, or they should be different". In other words, if you're granting an ability that has the same effect as a spell, don't create a new refluffed reskinned clone, just give them the spell.)

With regard to the variances in power level you'd get from giving vestiges slightly different numbers or levels of abilities, my plan for balancing the vestiges was to vary the pact DC a little. Working on the assumption that a 1st-level binder will have a Charisma check of somewhere in the region of (1d20) + (proficiency of +2) + (Charisma mod of +2 to +4), giving an average of somewhere around 14. By level 20, they'll probably have maxed their Charisma along the way, so that'll be (1d20) + (proficiency of +6) + (Charisma mod of +5), which averages around 21. A range of 7 or 8 is kinda small. If you decide to let them start doubling their proficiency bonus on the check at some point, that becomes (1d20) + (double proficiency for a total of +12) + (Charisma mod of +5), which averages about 27. Using that, the vestige pact DC could go from about 12-14 for 1st-levels, all the way up to 30 for the highest 9th-levels. That's possibly 18 points worth of range - 2 per level. That's a good number, although I don't know if I'd go with a flat distribution like that. So, a slightly stronger vestige might have a slightly higher DC than others of its level, and vice versa for the weaker ones.

If more balancing is needed, then I kinda like Prince Zahn's idea of imposing disadvantage - perhaps two vestiges that form a powerful combo might have conflicting personalities, so their texts state "you have disadvantage on the Charisma check to make a pact with [this vestige] if you already have [other vestige] bound".

One possible other measure is to say that if you make a poor pact, then a certain ability works differently - say, you have disadvantage on its attack roll, or you can only be immune to its AoE damage with a good pact, or you get half healing from a heal-type ability if you make a poor pact; that sort of thing. I'd be very careful with this though; 3.5 was careful to state that you get their abilities no matter how the pact goes, and as I've said before, crippling the character for a day because of one or two bad checks in the morning is kinda harsh.

While I'm on the subject, I think perhaps the vestige template should give a few more low-level passive things, or at least be more flexible about them. Say, between 2 and 5 things, rather than just two. Two languages is not the same as two weapon proficiencies. If anyone has any more concrete suggestions on what that template should look like, I'd love to see them. Just bear in mind that I was planning to do cards for each vestige with the abilities on one side, and the name/title/seal, level, pact DC, and influences on the other, just for those players who take forever to look things up. A vestige can have other things (lore and flavour text) that take up more space, but it'd be nice if those basics could fit on two sides of a playing-card-size card in a readably-sized font.

Other than that, I've had some ideas on archetypes: Binder's Fate. Being a Binder leaves its mark on those who practice the art, and at 3rd level they embark on a path that will leave them changed.
Awakened: exposure to creatures who exist outside of the usual laws of the universe imbues you with cosmic powers. Gain limited low-level spellcasting similar to Rogue's Arcane Trickster, choosing from the Sorcerer spell list.
Warped: the various physical signs and manifestations of the vestiges imprint themselves on your body, leaving you with unnatural features. Gain natural weapon and combat-useful features appropriate to a selected template (most obvious being Amon-style horns, scaled hide for Dragonborn-esque AC boost).
Unfettered: the study of magics that pierce the planes enables you to leave behind your physical form and experience the world as a vestige would. Gain ethereal-type abilities including blindsense/see invisibility as per one of the Rogue's archetypes, and some blur/blink/invisibility-type powers for increased stealth and mobility.


I'm by no means sold on these archetypes yet, but I think there's potential there. Thoughts?

[The_Doctor]

My promised conversion, a bit late.

VESTIGE LEVEL: 9
PACT DC: 22
Halphax
The Angel in the Angle

Special Requirement: You must draw the seal of Halphax in a corner of a building or other structure.
Manifestation: When Halphax manifests, the corner in which he was summoned appears to warp, growing deeper and extending to what appears to be an infinite distance beyond the limits of the structure. In that distance, a figure appears, and suddenly the distance closes, bringing Halphax into his seal. Halphax always takes the form of a gnome wearing leather breeches and a vest, both of which are covered in pockets and loops for holding tools and items. The tools of an engineer hang from his belt, and he usually appears in a posture of boredom, hands in his pockets. Halphax’s most striking feature is that he seems to have no flesh and bone beneath his clothes—only broken bits of stone and masonry. The shattered features of bas-reliefs and gargoyles make up his face.
Sign: Your body takes on the appearance of cracked stone.
Influence: In his time as a vestige, Halphax seems to have lost all memory of his life as well as any feeling of guilt or shame for his actions. Thus, when you are under his influence, you lose any normal sense of shame or embarrassment. However, if someone threatens a hostage you care about—be it a creature or an item—Halphax requires that you accede to the hostage taker’s demands.

Granted Powers:

Stone Skin: While bound to Halphax you have resistance to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage.

Halphax's Knowledge: You gain your proficiency bonus to skill checks about architecture, buildings, and so on.

Imprison: You can imprison a foe deep underground with but a touch. This acts as the imprisonment spell (PHB page 252) You can only choose the burial or hedge prison options. You can use this ability once per long rest. Spell save DC is equal to 8+ your proficiency bonus+ your charisma modifier.

Iron Wall: You can create a wall of iron at-will. This acts as wall of force. You can have a maximum of 5 walls at a time.

Secure Shelter: Once per short rest you can cast Leomund's tiny hut.


How did I do?

[Prince Zahn]

First of all, welcome back Anaxi! You had me worried


My promised conversion, a bit late.

[VESTIGE LEVEL: 9
PACT DC: 22
Halphax
The Angel in the Angle
*snip*
How did I do?
Might I make a suggestion to spoiler vestiges, so they take less space? I feel they can take up quite a bit of space.

That's kind of funny, Doctor, how just the other night I was looking up siege weapons in the DMG, thinking of what I can do with the exact same vestige:smalltongue:

I'm at work at the moment, so I don't really have the means to compare with the books today. Here are my thoughts on Halphax:
Tbh I wanted to save broadly applicable perception benefits and the like to a vestige like Dantalion, or Geryon(was it Geryon? The one with all-around vision!)
As a ninth level vestige, I think he can afford some more powerful tools - resistance to weapon damage is something for lower level vestiges I think, perhaps I'm wrong, though.
I don't think we need heavy limits on Wall of Force for a 17th or higher level binder. Perhaps we could make it an at-Will ability, but place a cap on how many walls he can have up at once? As of late I'm experimenting with caps for vestiges vestige bound, though I think the best is to rely on reason/common sense to triumph in the end.
Fluff speaking I have little to say - it seems closer to the original than it is to any adaptation. We're currently using temporarily-imposed traits/ideals/bonds/flaws as of right now to portray a vestige's influence, as opposed to outright blackmailing the 5e binder when making decisions.
Adding proficiency to skills is an iffy decision. inb4 the Binder's
4 or 5 vestiges can mean having 10 or more different skill proficiencies, more than even a rogue optimized for skill proficiencies can ever get (feats notwithstanding). Long story short, granting skill proficiencies is a difficult thing to balance when we make so many moving parts, I suggest giving benefits by other means if necessary.
Also, the core books suggest keeping flat bonuses to a minimum, and +6 is a ton.
I think imprisonment is a great ability to play with at these levels. Can't think of more to say about it yet

What I envisioned for Halphax was lowering him to mid/mid-high level making him a sort of war-machines-and-certain-traps-based-battlefield controller.

Overall, Doctor, it's a good base :smallsmile: mostly just needs to be synced with our discussion notes. I'll be happy to work with you further on Halphax, as well as others if you want. I figure I could use a set of Gallifreyan hands on a few vestiges:smallsmile:
@Spiriah you're invited too, especially with Anaxi back, we can make a little team out of it!

I'll try to find a time soon to put up some of my ideas... I've been busy.

[The_Doctor]

I'll revise Halphax later. For now, here is one of my all-time favorites:

FOCALOR
Prince of Tears
Bind DC: 18
Vestige Level: 3rd

Special Requirement: You must draw Focalor's seal with some sort of liquid.
Manifestation: Focalor manifests slowly, appearing first as a single tear that drops from thin air to strike the ground. Next his weeping eyes appear, and gradually his whole body becomes visible. Focalor looks like a handsome human male whose face is twisted by grief. He wears no clothes, but he cloaks his body in the griffon wings that grow from his back and shudder with each of his wracking sobs.
Sign: While bound to Focalor your eyes constantly weep, regardless of your mood or thoughts.
Influence: IN PROGRESS
Granted abilities:
Aura of Sadness: Each creature within 5 feet of you takes a -1 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. You may deactivate or reactivate this feature as an action.
Focalor's Breath: As an action, you may breath towards a target within 30 feet, who must immediately make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8+ your proficiency bonus + your charisma modifier) or be blinded for 1 round. You can use this ability once per short rest.
Lightning Strike: You call down lightning on a target you can see that is within 50 feet of you as an action, forcing it to make a Dexterity saving throw (DC as Focalor's Breath) or take 3d6 lightning damage. If it succeeds it takes half damage. This ability works outdoors, indoors, and even underwater.
Water Breathing: You can breath water just as well as air.

[Prince Zahn]

Would you guys mid if I suggest a new template to replace the original one? I know it's a guideline, but we saw it can be pretty dysfunctional.

This is what I used to build Naberius, hopefully it'll be a little more up to speed with current notes. I encourage deviation from the template if you feel it's needed:
NAME
Title
___ Level vestige
DC:
Seal:
Sign:
Manifestation:
Granted Abilities: – the section below. at least one of these abilities should be unique and exclusive to the binder.

PROFICIENCIES
Any tools, armor, weapons, or languages (but not secret languages) necessary to make use of the class, avoid skill proficiencies at all costs! Those are a rare and valuable commodity to obtain, and given the class has so many moving parts and so much that could go wrong, it is best steer clear of it and trust the binder can manage with the default number of skills like most everyone else.

1 Ribbon, and/or advantage on theme-appropriate or specific checks. this also includes secret languages but is not limited to it.

1 situational feature, ideally offering versatility. Some more powerful vestiges may have a safety-net ability instead (I.e. abilities like the Monk's perfect Self, that you can rely on to get you through an adventuring day easier, or aid to your general survivability/stamina.)

1 at-will ability or cantrip of the appropriate level. Or 2 for 1st level vestiges.as a rule of thumb, it should be reliable, but nothing really abusable.

2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features, (or spells,) that are level appropriate for the binder's level. One of which can get stronger or be used again at higher levels. high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.

PACT INFORMATION:
Roughly 2 reasonably-sized paragraphs in italics containing a retelling of the legend, notable factors that can influence the binding check with the vestige and any miscellaneous information that involves forming a pact with the vestige, as well as the following phrase and table:

If you make a poor pact with _______, s/he may influence your personality in one of the following ways:



Influence


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(influence A)


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw:)
(Influence B)


I'm wicked tired though rightnnow, I'll get some real work and bigger thoughts done tomorrow, I just thought this might help if anyone wanted to start working on their own vestiges and wants to try my method, but in the end, it's all trial and error. :smallsmile:

[anaximander19]

I like the new template! Just a few minor comments:


You say that the abilities/spells should be "level appropriate for the binder's level" - should that be the vestige's level, (ie. roughly equivalent to a spell of that level, so a 4th-level vestige gets 4th-level spells or something of that power) or did you mean "appropriate to a binder at the level where they gain access to this vestige"? ...Actually, there's not much difference between those two, but still, worth clarifying how to determine what's "level-appropriate".

I like the idea of one ability that scales with the binder's level, and one that doesn't. That covers the same kind of angle I was after when I decided on having abilities at half the level as well as the full level.

Some vestiges (particularly higher-level ones) may need a broader spread of abilities; perhaps as well as the one or two levelled abilities, they might get one or two at half their level as well. I say this because some of the 3.5 vestiges grant up to six or seven abilities.

I agree with your worries about skill proficiencies, and you're right, advantage on the skill check works much better. Part of this comes from me interpreting 3.5's bonus to skill checks as a modifier, hence proficiency, forgetting that in 5e bonuses usually take the form of advantage on the roll. I might be ok with a few vestiges (and I mean at most a handful, mostly in the upper levels) granting the odd skill proficiency (never more than one per vestige) where it's really thematically appropriate.

This last point is more of a clarification but on the subject of abilities, where you've got "2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features" I think it's worth noting that not all of them should be once-per-short-rest except in exceptional circumstances - I don't really want a binder to be able to burn out one particular vestige and spend the rest of the day with that vestige being mostly useless. Of course, if the cantrips and proficiencies are good enough, that'll cover it, and there's always renegotiation, so for a few vestiges it'd be fine, but in general they should provide something of a little more power that remains useful all day. At low levels, cantrips are pretty powerful when your top level of spell is only 1st or 2nd, so only having once-per-long-rest features is fine, but an 8th-level vestige that you can exhaust in the first encounter and be left with cantrips for the rest of the day feels kinda wrong. Bear in mind that a binding lasts for 24 hours, so an ability that can only be used once per long rest really means once per binding in most cases.


That last point reminds me, I should probably clarify at some point whether a vestige's once-per-rest abilities reset when you re-bind them, thus allowing you to use a once-per-rest ability, expel, rebind, and use it again. In short: no, that doesn't work. Technically this is already covered because it says "you can't use this ability again until you complete a rest", but I'd still feel better if somewhere it added "...even if you bind this vestige a second time".

Could I also ask that the paragraphs of vestige information keep a clean separation between flavour and mechanics? In other words, don't bury something in there about getting advantage on the check in certain conditions or whatever. 5e does a good job of making it fairly obvious what's flavour text and what's rules, so I'd like to follow that example. I'll probably keep all mechanical stuff at the end of that section, next to the bit about the influences on a poor pact. This would also make it easier to produce quick reference cards for players by simply dropping the vestige information part and just adding the influences table.

[anaximander19]

I got a chance to flesh out those archetypes a little. A few features need filling in, but here's what I have so far:

Binder's Fates
A binder deals with powerful entities and wields forces that defy the universe to impose his or her will upon them. No mortal flesh or soul can endure this unchanged, and in time a binder finds that they have become more than what they once were. Unlike the boons granted by a vestige, these powers are the binder's own, the result of changes to their very nature.

Awakened
The energies of the void outside the planes are potent and varied, and at each summoning these energies seep from the portal that a binder opens to the beyond. Over time, an Awakened Binder finds that they have gained a residual pool of energy that they can call upon.

Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the sorcerer spell list.

Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. You learn another sorcerer cantrip of your choice at 8th, 13th and 19th level.

Spell Slots. The Awakened Binder Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell charm person and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast charm person using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know two 1st-level sorcerer spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the conjuration and illusion spells on the sorcerer spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Awakened Binder Spellcasting table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be a conjuration or illusion spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 8th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 7th, 13th, 17th and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the sorcerer spells you know with another spell of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be a conjuration or illusion spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 7th, 13th, 17th or 20th level.

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Awakened Binder Spellcasting



Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd




3rd
2
2
2




4th
2
3
3




5th
2
3
3




6th
2
3
3




7th
2
4
4
1



8th
3
4
4
1



9th
3
4
4
1



10th
3
5
5
2



11th
3
5
5
2



12th
3
5
5
2



13th
4
6
5
2



14th
4
6
5
2
1


15th
4
6
5
2
1


16th
4
6
5
3
1


17th
4
7
5
3
2


18th
4
7
5
3
3


19th
5
7
5
3
3


20th
5
8
5
3
3




[3rd]
At 3rd level,

[7th]
At 7th level,

[13th]
At 13th level,

[17th]
At 17th level,



Warped
Hosting beings of such power within one's own body causes physical changes as each vestige seeks to manifest its sign in the binder's flesh. These repeated changes leave the binder's body warped into something not quite natural.

When you choose this Fate, you gain the ability to manifest your Warped Form. Select one from this list:

Horns (bludgeoning)
Claws (slashing)
Fangs (piercing)


Once per short rest, you may manifest your Warped Form as a bonus action, allowing the altered nature of your body to express itself. You can remain in your Warped Form for 5 rounds, during which time you gain a natural weapon of the type chosen. Your natural weapon uses a d6 as its damage die and deals the type of damage noted above.

Skin Shift
At 3rd level, your Warped Form has a thick hide that can protect you from damage. When you manifest your Warped Form, select a physical damage type: bludgeoning, slashing or piercing. You gain resistance to this damage type while you remain in your Warped Form.

Versatile Brawler
At 7th level, you learn to blend the the natural weapons of your Warped Form into the flow of combat. When you use the Attack action, you can make one attack using your natural weapon as a bonus action.

[13th]
At 13th level,

[17th]
At 17th level,



Unfettered
In their work with vestiges, binders study magics that pierce the planes and transcend the natural laws of the universe. Some even learn to leave behind their physical form and experience the world as a vestige would.

Intangible Presence
At 3rd level, you learn to manipulate the fabric of the planes so that your presence makes less of a mark in the physical world. Once per short rest, you can make yourself indistinct and harder to detect. For one minute, or as long as you maintain concentration (whichever is shortest), you appear as a blurred and partly transparent shape. While this effect lasts, you gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and you can't be tracked by non-magical means. In addition, you weigh half your normal weight, and have advantage on any checks to avoid disturbing objects or triggering traps. However, you have disadvantage on any Strength check made to lift, push, drag or otherwise move an object. Once you use this ability, you can't use it again until you complete a long or short rest.

Otherworldly Escape
At 7th level, your knowledge of the nature of existence allows you to alter your reality to avoid harm. When you take damage, you can use your reaction to turn invisible and teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack or cast a spell. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

[13th]
At 13th level,
[mind-control ability of some kind; perhaps a weak enthralling effect]

Unreality
At 17th level,
[ability to become incorporeal for a short duration (probably requiring concentration) in a manner vaguely similar to the spell Etherealness.]



My reasoning for these follows two different principles. First, most archetypes seem to provide something alongside the primary class mechanic, rather than altering it too much. For example, Warlock's pacts don't modify spellcasting or have much effect on the patron stuff; Rogue's archetypes don't really do much with Sneak Attack, etc. Similarly, I wanted to provide something besides the binding so that the character is less of a one-trick pony. Second, following on from that, I wanted to make sure the binder isn't useless with no vestiges bound. With wizards being able to use cantrips at will even without a spellbook, and various other steps taken to make sure that classes always have something they can do, I really didn't want a binder who hasn't bound anything yet today to revert to being a regular guy with nothing to offer. The weird magics that binders use give plenty of scope for exploring what effect being a binder has on the character themself.

In terms of what the archetypes do, it's basically a focusing mechanic. Binders are all about versatility, so these archetypes let them specialise into one of three classic roles: caster, brawler, or sneak. Awakened gives you a little casting so that your spell list isn't so very thin, Warped gives you what is essentially Rage Lite so that you can get into melee, and Unfettered gives you stealth and avoidance mechanics to keep out of trouble.

In particular, I'm not sure what to give the Awakened Binder beside the spells. One of them will probably be the ability to use spells granted by vestiges as if they were on their Spells Known list, so you can use your own spell slots to get extra uses of them. I'm also thinking of adding some control stuff to keep with the flavour of binding things to your will; maybe some travel spells like teleportation or plane shift.

[Prince Zahn]

EDIT: Ninja'd royally... I've been working all afternoon answering your previous comments... :smallfrown:First of all, Thanks for the kind praise! I was hoping it would work better at least across more vestige levels. But if the need arises, I won't be surprised if we made a few more templates by the time the 5e binder reaches playtesting :smalltongue:

You say that the abilities/spells should be "level appropriate for the binder's level" - should that be the vestige's level, (ie. roughly equivalent to a spell of that level, so a 4th-level vestige gets 4th-level spells or something of that power) or did you mean "appropriate to a binder at the level where they gain access to this vestige"? ...Actually, there's not much difference between those two, but still, worth clarifying how to determine what's "level-appropriate". Good question! As you said, the two options are remarkably similar, yet different. For the most part, I lean towards the latter, since the vestige's aren't solely reliant on spells, and because binders should have level appropriate tools. Note: I haven't the slightest clue how either one would interact with Paladin and ranger spells, that may require testing :smallredface:


I like the idea of one ability that scales with the binder's level, and one that doesn't. That covers the same kind of angle I was after when I decided on having abilities at half the level as well as the full level.I'm glad you like it! :smallsmile: now we have just to figure out the scaling method... XD


Some vestiges (particularly higher-level ones) may need a broader spread of abilities; perhaps as well as the one or two levelled abilities, they might get one or two at half their level as well. I say this because some of the 3.5 vestiges grant up to six or seven abilities. See above remark about having more than 1 template. :smalltongue: Frankly, high level play in any edition is not my forte (in my adventures I hardly ever really made it past 7th level.) but I think ranging between 4-6 major abilities is a fair balance regardless of a vestige's level. reserving a higher quantity of abilities to higher level vestiges will render lower-level vestiges nearly pointless and unable to keep up, which would be a shame. Also -More abilities = more work, and I'd like to save ourselves some work if possible, unless we establish a solid work force to divide the labor :smalltongue:


I agree with your worries about skill proficiencies, and you're right, advantage on the skill check works much better. Part of this comes from me interpreting 3.5's bonus to skill checks as a modifier, hence proficiency, forgetting that in 5e bonuses usually take the form of advantage on the roll. I might be ok with a few vestiges (and I mean at most a handful, mostly in the upper levels) granting the odd skill proficiency (never more than one per vestige) where it's really thematically appropriate.If we can agree that the binder could never offer expertise, I can agree to 7th(?), 8th and 9th level vestiges offering a true-blue skill proficiency, since I know a binder won't be able to bind more than 2 such vestiges at once. Also - no save proficiencies... Or at best 1 vestige only, best at really high levels too.


This last point is more of a clarification but on the subject of abilities, where you've got "2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features" I think it's worth noting that not all of them should be once-per-short-rest except in exceptional circumstances - I don't really want a binder to be able to burn out one particular vestige and spend the rest of the day with that vestige being mostly useless. Of course, if the cantrips and proficiencies are good enough, that'll cover it, and there's always renegotiation, so for a few vestiges it'd be fine, but in general they should provide something of a little more power that remains useful all day. At low levels, cantrips are pretty powerful when your top level of spell is only 1st or 2nd, so only having once-per-long-rest features is fine, but an 8th-level vestige that you can exhaust in the first encounter and be left with cantrips for the rest of the day feels kinda wrong. Bear in mind that a binding lasts for 24 hours, so an ability that can only be used once per long rest really means once per binding in most cases. A: a good point. Since you got me thinking about this one :3. A short-or-long rest may be the most flexible option, as either a short rest or a long rest suffice in recharging it, you can probably use abilities at least once more if you are bound for a whole day. In the template's design, I went by the assumption that rest-limited abilities should be a big deal, they are cards the binder can whip out of his sleeve when he needs it (for the most part, if it needed a 5-round cooldown in 3.5, it'll probably be changed to at-will or rest-limited, depending on it's new strength). I was careful to offer through Naberius enough always available options so he can remain useful even after he used those abilities.

B:Also:

2 once-per-short-or-long-rest abilities/features, (or spells,) that are level appropriate for the binder's level. One of which can get stronger or be used again at higher levels. high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.aka "encounter-abilities". I just realized we can also make some abilities at will by limiting their use to Rituals (I wanted to do that with disguise self, except you can't just decide an existing spell will be a ritual if it doesn't say so.:smallfrown:)


That last point reminds me, I should probably clarify at some point whether a vestige's once-per-rest abilities reset when you re-bind them, thus allowing you to use a once-per-rest ability, expel, rebind, and use it again. In short: no, that doesn't work. Technically this is already covered because it says "you can't use this ability again until you complete a rest", but I'd still feel better if somewhere it added "...even if you bind this vestige a second time". you can write that down where you explain about how making a pact works. :smallsmile: while we're at it, writing down the binder as capable of rituals may open some doors for us. :3 also. - base vestige features' DC should be there, if you haven't wrote it yet, as opposed to writing it on all the vestiges. (Disregard if you already did. I just can't see without refreshing the page and losing this post)


Could I also ask that the paragraphs of vestige information keep a clean separation between flavour and mechanics? In other words, don't bury something in there about getting advantage on the check in certain conditions or whatever. 5e does a good job of making it fairly obvious what's flavour text and what's rules, so I'd like to follow that example. I'll probably keep all mechanical stuff at the end of that section, next to the bit about the influences on a poor pact. This would also make it easier to produce quick reference cards for players by simply dropping the vestige information part and just adding the influences table.I don't know about you, but I would never let a friend who doesn't care about vestige legends play a binder in my vicinity. To me it's as bad as wanting to play an atheist cleric.:smallyuk: it plays a huge role in our fondest pact-magic memories.
That being said, what is it exactly that bothers you, the fact that I wrote things you can do to get on a vestige's good/bad side, that I gave it mechanical support, or because I mixed it all together? I respect your request, I'm just not sure what you mean.

When this binder takes flight, I eagerly want to try out a lot of creatively variant things that I haven't brought up, because I'm almost convinced you guys would feel much differently about them than I do. Some of the details under Pact Information exist and are there with that in mind.:smallredface:

[The_Doctor]

I like the new template and the subclasses.

Any comments on my Focalor conversion?

[anaximander19]

high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.
aka "encounter-abilities". Is there precedent for this? I get where you're coming from, but I'd be wary of inventing a whole new recovery mechanic. If there are already reset-on-initiative abilities in 5e, then that's fine, but as far as I'm aware 4e's concept of per-encounter powers became once-per-short-rest in 5e, so I'd rather not reintroduce it and complicate things again.


I just realized we can also make some abilities at will by limiting their use to Rituals (I wanted to do that with disguise self, except you can't just decide an existing spell will be a ritual if it doesn't say so.:smallfrown:)An excellent point. As you've noted, I didn't state that the Binder could cast ritual spells, but seeing how their primary class feature is a ritual, it seems silly to not give them that ability. As for disguise self, there are a bunch of abilities that say something like "you can cast [a spell] but only with a target of [restriction]", or "you cast [spell] without the usual material cost", or "you can cast [spell] but with a duration of [something]" and various other ways of modifying spells slightly, so I don't think there would be a problem with saying "you can cast disguise self as a ritual taking ten minutes" or something to that effect.


base vestige features' DC should be there, if you haven't wrote it yet, as opposed to writing it on all the vestiges. I haven't worked out suitable DC values for the various levels yet; that's next on my to do list.


I don't know about you, but I would never let a friend who doesn't care about vestige legends play a binder in my vicinity. To me it's as bad as wanting to play an atheist cleric.:smallyuk: it plays a huge role in our fondest pact-magic memories.
That being said, what is it exactly that bothers you, the fact that I wrote things you can do to get on a vestige's good/bad side, that I gave it mechanical support, or because I mixed it all together? I respect your request, I'm just not sure what you mean.I totally agree, and the binder in my party does indeed pay great attention to the legends and such - it's just that when we're playing, we try to keep everything to hand and not have to dive into sourcebooks because that holds up play. I've even got a little card - kinda like a card from Magic: The Gathering or something similar - with my weapon stats and effects on it. It's just so that we can refer quickly to the rules portion of what we're doing, and if the DM wants to check something we can just hand over a card with the relevant rules and rolls on it.

As a quick example of what I mean, take this randomly-selected block from the 5e PHB: rogue's Cunning Action. Prerequisites to gain the ability are in green, narrative flavour and plot detail are coloured blue, and rules regarding the mechanics of dice rolls and grid squares are coloured red.



Cunning Action
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.

Pretty much everything takes this format. When/how do I get this ability, what does it do in roleplay/plot/flavour terms, and how do the rules represent that. No intermixing. It makes it much easier to work out which bits you need to copy out if you want to write up a quick summary on a card, or a spare space on your character sheet. I'm not advocating throwing out the flavour text; I just appreciate the way that 5e makes it easy to extract rules from flavour, and I'd like to emulate that.

[PotatoGolem]

This seems super cool. Just one note on the Awakened subclass-it should probably follow the EK/AT progression, or else it's both fairly weak and a pain to calculate in multiclass builds.

[Prince Zahn]

Is there precedent for this? I get where you're coming from, but I'd be wary of inventing a whole new recovery mechanic. If there are already reset-on-initiative abilities in 5e, then that's fine, but as far as I'm aware 4e's concept of per-encounter powers became once-per-short-rest in 5e, so I'd rather not reintroduce it and complicate things again. PHB under classes. It isn't used much, and not directly the way I mentioned. It's mostly used as a late game safety net feature for classes like the monk or battle master fighter. It usually says that if you roll for initiative and have no fuel for your abilities, you get X points/dice back". They built the foundation IMO through those classes, in case they wanted something similar to 4e's encounter-based abilities in the future... Which dates back to pact magic experimenting on making once-per-encounter abilities! BINDCEPTION! :smalleek:


An excellent point. As you've noted, I didn't state that the Binder could cast ritual spells, but seeing how their primary class feature is a ritual, it seems silly to not give them that ability. As for disguise self, there are a bunch of abilities that say something like "you can cast [a spell] but only with a target of [restriction]", or "you cast [spell] without the usual material cost", or "you can cast [spell] but with a duration of [something]" and various other ways of modifying spells slightly, so I don't think there would be a problem with saying "you can cast disguise self as a ritual taking ten minutes" or something to that effect. can you verify this? Up until now, I thought you couldn't get a spell as a ritual if it doesn't explicitly have the [ritual] tag in the spell description...


I haven't worked out suitable DC values for the various levels yet; that's next on my to do list.I hope you don't mean binding DCs, because that's not a priority yet. I mean saving throw DCs from vestiges - let's not dwell on it too much:
"The DC for any saving throws required by your binder abilities and any abilities and spells granted to you by vestiges is equal to 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma Modifier." Rephrase if necessary. NEXT!


I totally agree, and the binder in my party does indeed pay great attention to the legends and such - it's just that when we're playing, we try to keep everything to hand and not have to dive into sourcebooks because that holds up play. I've even got a little card - kinda like a card from Magic: The Gathering or something similar - with my weapon stats and effects on it. It's just so that we can refer quickly to the rules portion of what we're doing, and if the DM wants to check something we can just hand over a card with the relevant rules and rolls on it. I'll work on that in the future, then. Though for the record, nobody needs to know the legends by heart, it's mostly story material, which IC the Binder will either learn on his own or via an NPC. No flash cards are really required for that.


Pretty much everything takes this format. When/how do I get this ability, what does it do in roleplay/plot/flavour terms, and how do the rules represent that. No intermixing. It makes it much easier to work out which bits you need to copy out if you want to write up a quick summary on a card, or a spare space on your character sheet. I'm not advocating throwing out the flavour text; I just appreciate the way that 5e makes it easy to extract rules from flavour, and I'd like to emulate that.[/QUOTE]
You got it, boss!

@The Doctor: I recommend trying to come up with some new stuff to add to a vestige, as well as replicating the original abilities when possible. Like I did, giving Naberius Vicious Mockery, or the ability to sniff out authority figures. Amon's very annoying special requirements are being developed into giving his host a competitive edge against celestials, fiends and (eventually) his/her fellow binders.
We got a new template now, I say check if it works for Focalor and add what you think fits to fill in blanks :smallsmile:
Also - avoid flat bonuses and penalties when possible, 5e is very careful with it's math to avoid inflation. Perhaps aura of sadness might let you use your reaction to impose disadvantage on attack rolls against you within 5 feet for the round. Or something - might be strong, not sure, still better than a flat number penalty.

Lastly, these are very high binding DCs aren't they?

----
@Anaxi: you forgot to put in 4th level spells somewhere, if you have to give a binder normal access to normal spells, at least pay him minimum wage.:smalltongue:
I don't know if I'm that keen on the binder getting permanent "side effects" from his involvement with vestiges. A: because he's already persecuted enough as it is. Having permanent signs is much harder. and if half of what they're saying is true, then eternal damnation is already a big enough side effect. and B: he gets tons of signs from vestiges, and some of which can already be used in combat. This is redundant IMO.
---
I may have said this before, don't remember... I have a different idea for what you could do with subclasses.
My idea is to focus on a binder's affiliation with pact magic (I.e. there are different career directions a binder might choose to follow) that might double as pact-magic factions in a campaign, which would give the binder class features with a unified theme from early level and throughout mid-levels. It would also reserve some of the vestiges to be accessible only via these subclasses, who share a common color and theme for a binder who favors a specific role.

I'm thinking of the format being similar to Cleric's Domain (learning a few vestiges who have something in common throughout a set of levels, at least 1 or 2 of which are exclusive to the subclass; gaining a few new abilities the binder could rely on independently from his chosen vestiges, and one that adds a new option to an existing class ability in an exclusive way... Perhaps Pact Augmentation? but that could be the sleep deprivation talking...)

As of right now, I'm thinking of three subclasses: ______ of the Prince (starring Tenebrous, focusing on dark and demonic powers), ______ of the Emperor (crowning Dantalion and dealing with vestiges and abilities who revolve around magic and mysticism) and the ______ of the Duke (featuring Zagan, focusing freaky changes to the binder's body to take down foes) I will try to build the exclusive star vestiges to be worth the same level, which would make placing fitting them into an archetypes easier :3 another nice thing I could do for bonus points is to work like WotC into offering multiple levels of complexity for whoever wants. This is in the works and in the idea stage presently, I'm posting what I have before it gets any further so I don't get as disappointed if you all say it sucks:smallredface:

(working on a general name for them, and these names are tentative and all. Also, I'm not at ease with stealing the name "Binder Fates" which I admit is a wicked name. I'm thinking about "Constellations", or "Pledges", but again - it's tentative)

[anaximander19]

I hope you don't mean binding DCs, because that's not a priority yet. I mean saving throw DCs from vestiges - let's not dwell on it too much:
"The DC for any saving throws required by your binder abilities and any abilities and spells granted to you by vestiges is equal to 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + your Charisma Modifier." Rephrase if necessary. NEXT!Oh, right. Yeah, DC for vestige ability works just like a spell save. I did mean the binding DCs; I want to get a rough idea of what the baseline is so that as we convert vestiges, we can start thinking about balancing them, and adjusting the pact DC by a point or two is one of the ways I plan to do that. I'll hold off until we can get some archetypes sorted though.


Though for the record, nobody needs to know the legends by heart, it's mostly story material, which IC the Binder will either learn on his own or via an NPC. No flash cards are really required for that.Indeed. In fact, my notes in the margin include a reminder that there's great plot-hook material here: as I think I've suggested before, a DM could easily say to a binder who's close to levelling up that they uncover rumours or fragments of information about a vestige whose name has long been forgotten, prompting a quest to find a lost temple in which lies the ancient texts of a dead cult, in which the name and seal of a vestige are recorded... or something like that.


you forgot to put in 4th level spells somewhere, if you have to give a binder normal access to normal spells, at least pay him minimum wage.:smalltongue:I did. I adjusted the spellcasting down a little from Arcane Trickster because the Binder gets spellcasting anyway from the vestiges, but I changed my mind not long after when looking at the spell lists and thinking through what sort of combinations you'd get. The standard 4-level progression should be fine.


I don't know if I'm that keen on the binder getting permanent "side effects" from his involvement with vestiges. A: because he's already persecuted enough as it is. Having permanent signs is much harder. and if half of what they're saying is true, then eternal damnation is already a big enough side effect. and B: he gets tons of signs from vestiges, and some of which can already be used in combat. This is redundant IMO.I really like the idea of the binder getting something other than vestiges. Currently, a binder who hasn't had a chance to bind anything yet has veeery little going for them, which I don't like. It's true that some of the things granted by the archetypes as I currently have them may also be granted by vestiges (or something similar, at least) but a) just bind something else, and b) that's why I'm trying to come up with mostly-new things.


I may have said this before, don't remember... I have a different idea for what you could do with subclasses.
My idea is to focus on a binder's affiliation with pact magic (I.e. there are different career directions a binder might choose to follow) that might double as pact-magic factions in a campaign, which would give the binder class features with a unified theme from early level and throughout mid-levels. It would also reserve some of the vestiges to be accessible only via these subclasses, who share a common color and theme for a binder who favors a specific role.

I'm thinking of the format being similar to Cleric's Domain (learning a few vestiges who have something in common throughout a set of levels, at least 1 or 2 of which are exclusive to the subclass; gaining a few new abilities the binder could rely on independently from his chosen vestiges, and one that adds a new option to an existing class ability in an exclusive way... Perhaps Pact Augmentation? but that could be the sleep deprivation talking...)

As of right now, I'm thinking of three subclasses: ______ of the Prince (starring Tenebrous, focusing on dark and demonic powers), ______ of the Emperor (crowning Dantalion and dealing with vestiges and abilities who revolve around magic and mysticism) and the ______ of the Duke (featuring Zagan, focusing freaky changes to the binder's body to take down foes) I will try to build the exclusive star vestiges to be worth the same level, which would make placing fitting them into an archetypes easier :3 another nice thing I could do for bonus points is to work like WotC into offering multiple levels of complexity for whoever wants. This is in the works and in the idea stage presently, I'm posting what I have before it gets any further so I don't get as disappointed if you all say it sucks:smallredface:
I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of limiting vestige availability... when you liken it to Cleric Domains, I think it sounds alright - most vestiges available to everyone, just one or two per level that are restricted... except that 2 per level with 3 archetypes is 6 per level, which is actually all the vestiges there are at some levels. Most levels, in fact. The other thing is that with things like Cleric Domains, there are other spellcasting classes who can access those spells, whereas Binder is the only one who uses vestiges.

One thing that did occur to me is that Warlock gets two options: their pact, and their patron. So now I can't help wondering whether it'd be too complex to have both. You could always have a "core" set of vestiges, and then have variants that you can pick, whereupon you lose access to some of the "core" vestiges, and gain access to some special ones in their place. That makes it less about building up the character, and more about taking an already fully fleshed out character and modifying them. Doing it this way also lets you try a vestige out at an earlier level, before the point where you choose your "domain" and lose access to it.


(working on a general name for them, and these names are tentative and all. Also, I'm not at ease with stealing the name "Binder Fates" which I admit is a wicked name. I'm thinking about "Constellations", or "Pledges", but again - it's tentative)Yeah... I like naming things :smalltongue: "Pledges" works nicely - there's a nice link to "pact", and thematically "pledge" is also a kinda watered-down version of "Oath" (as in Paladin) which implies a code of conduct, which gives a nice explanation as to why you've decided that certain vestiges are off-limits.

As a side note, Warped Binder is mechanically following Knight Of The Sacred Seal quite heavily, using inspiration from 5e's Barbarian to work out how those mechanics convert over. Flavour-wise, it's totally different though. Awakened Binder aims to emulate Anima Mage, though this time the flavour is a pretty faithful conversion while the mechanics are somewhat different. Unfettered Binder is mostly new, filling the most obvious third role that's not covered by the other two.

[Prince Zahn]

I might have misspoke, though I'm my defense it was past 1AM when a I last posted:smallredface:
I'd like to change saying 2 exclusives, in my reality these subclasses won't offer more than 4 vestiges between levels 2/3 and 9, and I myself am considering if they all need to be exclusive, or some are more easily obtained, of if I should take an Eldritch Blast-inspired route, and incentivize binding these certain vestiges (In which case only the stars Dantalion, Tenebrous and Zagan would have their respective pledges as a prerequisite/special requirement). The subclasses themselves will likely work around the levels you used, if those are the levels you need.:smallwink:

I love the idea of plot-hooking vestiges. Harder to go wrong building upon what people have already been doing anyway. :smallsmile:

Based on what I remember from the old "make a vestige" articles, the binding DC could be mostly based on how often we want a given vestige's sign and influence to come into play. I don't know if that's what you want to do, but it sounds like a simpler approach :3

Where do you stand on free extra attack at binder 5, Anaxi?

I should mention, I agree that while the binder might start her path as mundane among mortal the binder should relinquish any right to the label "commoner" within the first 3 levels, with or without his vestiges. :smalltongue: it's because of this I aim that my pledges/cults/??? Would give the binder abilities that would be handy in general, but better when bound to any of these vestiges, which is a lot easier to coordinate when you
Build it all from scratch:smalltongue:

@the warlock pact: I love the warlock, I love the binder, but I feel going by that approach is "versatility overkill" :smallconfused: gotta keep it simple enough not to overwhelm novice players

[anaximander19]

I'd like to change saying 2 exclusives, in my reality these subclasses won't offer more than 4 vestiges between levels 2/3 and 9, and I myself am considering if they all need to be exclusive, or some are more easily obtained, of if I should take an Eldritch Blast-inspired route, and incentivize binding these certain vestiges (In which case only the stars Dantalion, Tenebrous and Zagan would have their respective pledges as a prerequisite/special requirement). The subclasses themselves will likely work around the levels you used, if those are the levels you need.:smallwink:Ooh, likening it to Eldritch Blast gives me an idea... If we do have subclasses based around particular vestiges, then they could offer vestige-specific pact augmentations just like how warlocks get invocations that are restricted to a particular pact or patron. So, while the other pact augmentations require you to have a vestige bound to make them work, these ones would need a specific vestige, not just any one.

(On a related note, I've been thinking of having pact augmentations that require a vestige of a certain level, rather than any vestige. Thoughts?)


I should mention, I agree that while the binder might start her path as mundane among mortal the binder should relinquish any right to the label "commoner" within the first 3 levels, with or without his vestiges. :smalltongue: it's because of this I aim that my pledges/cults/??? Would give the binder abilities that would be handy in general, but better when bound to any of these vestiges, which is a lot easier to coordinate when you
Build it all from scratch:smalltongue:All I'm saying is that given what we have so far, what does a binder without vestiges have over a commoner? I guess their ability scores are above commoner level, and the HP they get at each level, and the base proficiencies they get at 1st level, but other than that... nothing. No vestiges means no pact augmentations, so not even those. Maybe some feats, if the DM is allowing feats (so easy to forget they're a variant rule in 5e, after feat-heavy 3.5). Thus, I want to give it some features that don't rely on vestiges at all.

I'm so torn between the two options, I might end up just finishing the three I posted, then building your vestige-set idea, and presenting both for people to choose from. They're so different, I think there's totally room for both. In fact, I have ideas for two other things that use vestiges; at one point "binder" was going to be a subclass of something else, but really the other two subclasses from that idea could be full classes of their own. In time, vestiges could be a common feature of multiple classes, so that vestige/pact magic is an actual group just like arcane magic and divine magic, rather than just a thing that one class does... But that's something for another day :smallwink:

[Prince Zahn]

Ooh, likening it to Eldritch Blast gives me an idea... If we do have subclasses based around particular vestiges, then they could offer vestige-specific pact augmentations just like how warlocks get invocations that are restricted to a particular pact or patron. So, while the other pact augmentations require you to have a vestige bound to make them work, these ones would need a specific vestige, not just any one.

(On a related note, I've been thinking of having pact augmentations that require a vestige of a certain level, rather than any vestige. Thoughts?) The way I'm thinking of my archetypes is that binding with any of an archetype's vestiges let's you enjoy a unique pact augmentation (i.e. Pledge/Cult of the Prince might have access to a PA that works like–/in sync with– darkness, and the grouped vestiges get an upper hand with it. I have a few ideas already. But save room for me to implement Darkness for now.:smalltongue:
vestige level seems like a handy prereq for stronger PAs that would be abusable if over-taken. Let's be a little careful not to step on eachother's toes if possible.


All I'm saying is that given what we have so far, what does a binder without vestiges have over a commoner? I guess their ability scores are above commoner level, and the HP they get at each level, and the base proficiencies they get at 1st level, but other than that... nothing. No vestiges means no pact augmentations, so not even those. Maybe some feats, if the DM is allowing feats (so easy to forget they're a variant rule in 5e, after feat-heavy 3.5). Thus, I want to give it some features that don't rely on vestiges at all.Inb4: where do you stand on giving Extra Attack at Binder 5?

I respect the notion, I'm just less keen on the proposed execution (unfettered Binder seems fine at a glance, haven't got to thoroughly inspect it. We have creative differences over the exact execution, despite our ideas comparable :3.
No feats - it's an optional rule I don't want to depend on. >_<


I'm so torn between the two options, I might end up just finishing the three I posted, then building your vestige-set idea, and presenting both for people to choose from. They're so different, I think there's totally room for both. In fact, I have ideas for two other things that use vestiges; at one point "binder" was going to be a subclass of something else, but really the other two subclasses from that idea could be full classes of their own. In time, vestiges could be a common feature of multiple classes, so that vestige/pact magic is an actual group just like arcane magic and divine magic, rather than just a thing that one class does... But that's something for another day :smallwink: I liked everything you said here, especially about our archetypes potentially co-existing. I'll try not to step on your toes. Mind you the warped Binder's sign weapons should at at least have a more powerful damage die than Amon's Ram horns, which I can't decide if it's a d6 or d8.

[The_Doctor]

I've decided to test myself by making a level 1 vestige. They're the hardest to make, balance-wise.


AMON
The Void Before the Altar
1st Level vestige
DC: 14
Sign: You grow the curling horns of a ram.
Manifestation: Amon manifests in a burst of black smoke, howling foul curses at his summoner. He possesses a black wolf’s body with a ram’s head and a serpent for a tail. His mouth is filled with sharp teeth, and fire escapes it when he speaks.
Granted Abilities:

Darkvision: You have darkvision while bound to Amon.

Fire Breath: You can vomit forth a line of fire as a dragonborn. Once you do so you must take a long rest to do so again.

Ram Attack: The horns you gain as Amon's sign function as a natural weapon that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit. [(I forgot if you can charge in 5e, so ignore this part if you can't) It deals an additional 1d8 damage if you charge with it.]

ETERNAL RIVALRY
You have advantage on all ability check and attack roll contests made against other binder. When you reach 13th level, the benefits of this ability also apply to contest rolls made against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends or undead, as well as mortals possessed by these creatures or have formed a pact with them. [Thanks to Zahn for this ability!]

PACT INFORMATION:
Scholars claim that Amon is what remains of the personality of a god who died of neglect millennia ago. Once worshiped by thousands, Amon eventually lost his faithful to more responsive deities. His will was strong enough, though, to resist eternal sleep on the Astral Plane. Since his demise, his half-existence as a vestige seems to have dramatically changed his appearance and personality. Once a calm and wise protector, a god of light and law, Amon is now a foultempered and hateful spirit.

[Prince Zahn]

I've decided to test myself by making a level 1 vestige. They're the hardest to make, balance-wise.


AMON
The Void Before the Altar
1st Level vestige
DC: 14
Sign: You grow the curling horns of a ram.
Manifestation: Amon manifests in a burst of black smoke, howling foul curses at his summoner. He possesses a black wolf’s body with a ram’s head and a serpent for a tail. His mouth is filled with sharp teeth, and fire escapes it when he speaks.
Granted Abilities:

Darkvision: You have darkvision while bound to Amon.

Fire Breath: You can vomit forth a line of fire as a dragonborn. Once you do so you must take a long rest to do so again.

Ram Attack: The horns you gain as Amon's sign function as a natural weapon that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a hit. [(I forgot if you can charge in 5e, so ignore this part if you can't) It deals an additional 1d8 damage if you charge with it.]

PACT INFORMATION:
Scholars claim that Amon is what remains of the personality of a god who died of neglect millennia ago. Once worshiped by thousands, Amon eventually lost his faithful to more responsive deities. His will was strong enough, though, to resist eternal sleep on the Astral Plane. Since his demise, his half-existence as a vestige seems to have dramatically changed his appearance and personality. Once a calm and wise protector, a god of light and law, Amon is now a foultempered and hateful spirit.


They're not the hardest IMO. But you did pick a challenge...:smalltongue: since Amon is out in the open, I'll share this ability I think you could add:
Tell me how this sounds to you:
ETERNAL RIVALRY
You have advantage on all ability check and attack roll contests made against other binder. When you reach 13th level, the benefits of this ability also apply to contest rolls made against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends or undead, as well as mortals possessed by these creatures or have formed a pact with them.Also, can you come up with more abilities for Amon? He already has so few abilities and he deserves more love! :3
Also - you need the charger feat to properly charge, you need a creative solution here cuz I'm strongly against mixing feats into classes.

[The_Doctor]

Eternal rivalry looks good, though "not bound to Amon" could be added in; how can Amon be a rival with himself?

I can't think of any more abilities; I've used up all of the existing ones already.

I should probably wait until I fix my other vestiges to post a new one, but meh.


Primus
The One and Prime
3rd Level vestige
DC: 15
Sign: Dozens of small patches of skin on the binder’s legs and arms become gold, silver, and bronze. These randomly placed metal plates take the shape of well-formed squares, equilateral triangles, hexagons, and other geometric shapes. These pieces of metal do not odder any bonus or inhibit the character in anyway. If removed, they revert to bloody flaps of flesh.
Manifestation: When Primus begins to appear, its seal seems to rise up as a floating platform and become a bronze gear with dozens of smaller cogs and mechanisms within, all whirring and clicking as they turn. A yellow glow shines up from the ground and through the gears, dimming slightly just before Primus appears in a burst of rainbow light
Primus stands fully 10 feet tall atop the floating gear-work, its lower body merging with the glow that rises from the floor. Humanoid in shape, Primus’s genderless body seems to be made of solid gold.
Primus stands silently and impassively, saying nothing, it’s face devoid of all features. When the binder at last decides to say something, Primus suddenly speaks, its voice sounding hollow and cold, “Who summons us?”
Once uttered two holes open on Primus’s blank visage where eyes should be, and each dark void spills black fluid down Primus’s face. Where the liquid flows, the vestige’s golden body sizzles away in then layers, as through Primus’s tears burn away its body. No matter how deep the channels this darkness creates grow, Primus never flinches.

Granted Abilities:
Divine Structure: If an enemy attacks you with the same action that it used to attack you in in the previous round, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8+your proficiency bonus +your Charisma modifier) or take 2d6 radiant damage. However if you attack with the same action that you used last round, you gain a +1 bonus to your attack roll or save DC.

Lawful Presence: If a creature within 5 feet of you would break the law, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC as Divine Structure) or fall prone. This power's effects are nullified if they are exploiting a loophole, even if they are not aware of it.

Order of Primus: You can use the command spell once per short rest. Targets that fail their saving throw treat you as being under the effects of the invisibility and silence spells as well; they cannot see or hear you. This effect lasts 1d4 rounds or until you attack them. Starting at 18th level you can use this ability at will.

PACT INFORMATION:
According to obscure planar lore, Primus was a being of law so ordered that none but it’s race of servants—strange creatures know as modrons—could bear to worship it. Beings of pure order, dedicated to advancing precision and structure throughout the multiverse, the modrons obey Primus as their god and master. The one and the Prime represented the race’s most absolute ideal of perfect logic, its every command trickling down through an impossibly complex chain of lieutenants, sub-chiefs, executors, and managers to reach the ears of every being in it’s service. Thus, the modrons worked order upon the multiverse, and the word of Primus was that order.
In the far-flung reaches of Mechanus, on the sixty-four modron-controlled cogs known as Regulus, there exists a fantastically complex clock-work fortress known as the Great Modron Cathedral. From this throne Primus dictated the path of each of its followers. To aid its reasoning, great knowledge constantly streamed into Primus’s cathedral and powerful magical creations, forged from the perfectly attuned gears of the plane, offered windows onto the whole of the multiverse. One of these magics was the Grand Orrery, an unfathomably intricate device that measured the shifting of power, planes, and planets, deducing their cosmic and multiplanar meanings. A cadre of majordomos reported the Grand Orrery’s telling directly to Primus, as well as happenings relayed to them in turn from networks of agents stretched across the multiverse. At the same time, Primus personally monitored its minions employing another powerful device known as the Infinity Web. Through this waxy confluence of cords and strands, Primus’s consciousness stretched through its subordinate modrons, witnessing events throughout infinite realities. Thus, the One and the Prime observed as much as any deity and more.
It was the information that spiraled around the modron throne, the prophecies and reports of the Grand Orrery and the Infinity Web, that led to Primus’s end. Seated as he was at the hub of the largest network of information in the multiverse there were those who envied Primus’s Knowledge.
Thus, when the demon prince Orcus, as his shadow-self Tenebrous, carved his bloody path through the planes on his unholy quest for divinity, Primus became one of the first casualties. Seeking his lost rod, Tenebrous infiltrated the One and the Prime’s sanctuary and ended the incredulous being with a killing word, adopting its form to bend its intelligence network and legions of servants to his foul purposes. Countless modrons were lost obeying Tenebrous’s cruel whims and when the would-be god gleaned all he desired, he cast off his facade and left the modron hierarchy in shambles.
With the loss of their god and leader, a member of Primus’s most immediate lieutenants—the Secundus— took up the mantle of the Supreme Modron. This new Primus seeing its people crippled, its cathedral invaded, and its magic corrupted, turned its race’s attentions inward, calling all modron survivors back to Regulus and sealing the borders. Since that time few modrons have been seen throughout the multiverse and their current actions remain mysterious.
Yet despite the former Primus’s apparent destruction, a being whose consciousness stretches across planes cannot so easily be destroyed. From the minds and memories of thousands of tormented modrons on contact with it at the moment of its destruction, a vestige of the old Primus arose. While logic, law, and a structured multiverse once dictated its every action, a new directive now inspires this methodical ghost of order: the destruction of Tenebrous and all similar beings of chaos.

[Prince Zahn]

First of all,I call dibs on Tebrous and Malphas. It's nothing personal, I just already have some stuff on them and wish to handle them personally.:smallsmile:

I will look at primus later, though I don't think I heard of him before... What source is it from?

Also, I created a monster killing machinevestige! one we've been waiting to see for a while, I think.
PAIMON
The Dancer
3rd level Vestige
Seal:*
Sign:*while bound to Paimon, your mouth can grin (or frown) wider on one side than normally possible.*
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
Weapons: Rapiers, Shortswords.

DEFENSIVE FIGHTING
you know the Blade Ward*Cantrip, and can cast it at will.

ARTISTIC EDGE:
While wielding a finesse weapon, You have advantage on all Dexterity (Acrobatics) and Charisma (Performance) made to dance, tumble or whirl.

PAIMON'S SWORDSMANSHIP
Paimon understands the value of magic spells as an art not too distinct from swordplay. If you wield a weapon that has the Finesse property in your hand, you can use it as a spellcasting focus for any spell or cantrip you learn from a vestige.

COMBAT SUPERIORITY
*When bound to a pact with Paimon, you know maneuvers that are fueled by special dice called superiority Dice.
Maneuvers: you learn the Sweeping Attack*and Lunging Attack*maneuvers.
Superiority Dice. you gain 3 superiority dice, which are d6s. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain all of your expended superiority dice once you finish a short or long rest.
You gain another superiority die at 13th level.
In addition, A binder who gains the Combat superiority class feature by other means (such as by multiclassing) receives d8s instead (or d10s, if she has the improved combat superiority class feature).

DANCE OF DEATH
While you are bound to Paimon, you can dance and destroy like a rampant whirlwind. You know the spell Haste, and can cast it on yourself by making a special DC 14 Charisma(performance) instead of expending a spell slot. though in addition to concentrating on Haste, you need to spend a bonus action to roll another DC 14 Charisma (Performance) check each round to sustain the effect. The spell otherwise lasts and functions as normal. You can perform the Dance of Death once, and once more at 14th level, before requiring a short or long rest in order to cast it again.

PACT INFORMATION:
Though no one knows for certain where the legend originated from, Few binders live their life without knowing the tragic Paimon's tale. In his time, Paimon was an infamous Casanova who seduced and danced with noblewomen at every ball, and defeat their jealous suitors with his swordplay. One day, he crossed an unusually cruel nobleman, usually told to be human or elf, who challenged him many times, but could never trump Paimon's swordsmanship. Paimon had publicly humiliated on multiple occasions, he assembled the many suitors who's women were romanced by Paimon, when, that night, the men assaulted the philanderer, slicing his sword arm as a warning. It did not discourage Paimon though, as he returned covered by the next gala with a gem-encrusted hand made of solid gold, which he could replace with a rapier blade, ready to pay back his rivals, and even fought and humiliated the man who led the attack, his sparing his life because the woman they both sought after requested a dance from Paimon. Paimon's adversary was only driven further by his thirst for vengeance, him and his peers captured Paimon, slicing off all four of his limbs and replaced them with sword blades, jeering at him and daring him to return to society looking as he did before leaving him to die on the outskirts of town. At the next royal ball, many were wondering where the charming rake may have disappeared to, much to his adversary and his accomplices hidden delight. Then, a tall, well-shrouded figure appeared among of the dancers, and spun impossibly fast, Paimon's adversary was outraged by the disturbance and tore away the figure's cloth to discover paimon's torso balanced upon the bleeding sword blades he uses for limbs, staring at his adversary with dead eyes and a slanted face. A woman screamed at the sight of the monster he became, and the once-charming swordsman faded away to dust, leaving only the traces of blood across the ballroom. His body was never found, but a trail of blood and blade marks were found* across the town. Apparently Paimon was alive but gone—banished by the scream of a woman.

When Paimon Manifests, he often demonstrates himself as a romantic and a ladies' man, occasionallyoffering love advice to men, but is far more polite to women. He likes it his binders to exude confidence, and sympathizes with those who's trust has been betrayed.
Paimon might impose disadvantage on your check to bind him if you are hesitant when speaking to him, or if he suspects you would use his powers to harm a creature of the opposite sex, or assault a performer. That being said, Paimon might offer advantage on the check instead if he is convinced you will use his powers to take vengeance or reclaim a loved one.

If you make a poor pact with Paimon, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:



Influence


Personality Trait:
The first thing I would do when I arrive at a new place is to court a fair damsel.


flaw:
I can not resist the allure of music and dancing.



I hope this Paimon isn't overkill, :smallredface: it's mostly a lot of stuff I thought can fit, or would go well together.

[anaximander19]

Prince Zahn, I really like that conversion of Paimon. Spot on. The_Doctor, I like where you're going with Amon (it looks very much like my attempted conversion) but as such an iconic vestige I think maybe he needs a little extra. I can't decide what yet; I think perhaps rather than just granting a natural weapon he should get a unique ability that replicates 3.5's charge mechanic. Off the cuff, how's this:


Ram Attack
The horns you gain as Amon's sign function as a natural weapon that deals 1d6 of bludgeoning damage. If you already have horns, they grow larger and more curled. They deal an extra 1d4 in addition to their normal damage, they now deal bludgeoning damage.

If you move at least 10 feet immediately before making an attack with your horns, you can make a charging attack that deals 1d8 of bludgeoning damage (or 1d10 if you have the improved horns), and the target of the attack must make a Strength check opposed by your own. If your result is higher, the creature is knocked back 5 feet. If the space that this would move them into is not empty, they take an additional 1d6 of bludgeoning damage instead.


The bit about already having horns is there for a few reasons, mostly future-proofing. One of the subclasses I'm considering gets the option of horns, and one of the Unearthed Arcana supplements has the Minotaur race which gets horns (which, I've just noticed, deal 1d10 piercing!). In general, it's best to account for the possibility of already having horns.

[Prince Zahn]

Thanks! There are only 2 things I'm uncertain about regarding Paimon, which I think may arise as an issue later:

Gotta make sure combat superiority won't be an issue if we decide to make other vestiges give other maneuvers - it's the sheer number of dice I'd be worried about if we expanded on it, is all. But overall I figure it's is a fair tradeoff for muticlass Binder/fighter builds, since you don't get the 4th attack or the last indomitable but should get a nice bit of other neat stuff :3
Also, should dance of death be needed to long rest? Or is the limitation enough? I'm a little hesitant when comparing it to the fighter, though.


@Amon. I imagine one thing we could do with Amon is use that ram attack for shoving :3 which means knocking back or knocking prone on a successful Strength (Athletics) contest vs. Strength (Athletics)/Dexterity (Acrobatics)/(see:PHB, p.195.) Perhaps you could add horn damage on a success? Increase the distance or offer advantage?

[anaximander19]

@Amon. I imagine one thing we could do with Amon is use that ram attack for shoving :3 which means knocking back or knocking prone on a successful Strength (Athletics) contest vs. Strength (Athletics)/Dexterity (Acrobatics)/(see:PHB, p.195.) Perhaps you could add horn damage on a success? Increase the distance or offer advantage?

Athletics, that's the one. My mind went blank, so I just left it as Strength. I went with a simple 5ft knockback, (with the customary extra damage if there's no free square to be knocked into) but knocking prone could work too. Although it just occurred to me that any effect like knockback or knocking prone should carry the limitation that it doesn't work on creatures larger than you. I just have this mental image of a halfling binder knocking something massive like a dragon or a hill giant prone...

[Prince Zahn]

Athletics, that's the one. My mind went blank, so I just left it as Strength. I went with a simple 5ft knockback, (with the customary extra damage if there's no free square to be knocked into) but knocking prone could work too. Although it just occurred to me that any effect like knockback or knocking prone should carry the limitation that it doesn't work on creatures larger than you. I just have this mental image of a halfling binder knocking something massive like a dragon or a hill giant prone...it would probably work as per the shoving rules, which function just as we described, including prone (sans the mental image in the end, and there's no damage+KB ability if you're not a Battle Master) you could really reduce that limit by another size at higher levels. How does that sound? :3

[anaximander19]

Really? Nothing that does damage with knockback? Not even 5ft? Aww... at least tell me I'm not imagining reading knockback effects that swap the knockback for damage if you hit a wall before you've travelled the full knockback distance.

Actually, do you count Repelling Blast? That adds knockback to eldritch blast without removing its damage, so technically that counts.

That aside, would we want Amon's ram attack to do damage, knockback, or (crazy idea, not sure if it's a good one) allow the player to choose?

[The_Doctor]

Thanks for the feedback.

Primus? He's from that PDF I gave you a link to, Zahn.

I think next I might do Astaroth, but I'm not sure.


Also, I'm feeling silly.


Pun-Pun
Lord of Powergamers
Level: You tell me!
DC: You tell me!
Sign: A d20 is always visible about your person, such as in your free hand, stitched onto a coat button or around your neck on a chain. This d20 appears to move when viewed casually, but is mysteriously normal when scrutinized. Any attempt to hide it causes it to slip between the capturing surfaces and roll onto a free space on the binder. If removed by another person, it vanishes as soon as they let it out of their sight and turns up somewhere on the binder.
Manifestation: Pun-Pun creeps cautiously into his seal, looking around in a worried way. Suddenly, a massive snake rears up from under the seal, carrying Pun-Pun on it's head. As it rears up out of sight, it begins to shrink again, stamped down by the clawed foot of a colossal Kobold. Pun-Pun begins to shrink as his foot nears the ground and he comes down a stronger, more confident scaly runt than he was before. When he addresses the binder, his voice echoes with Divine power, though his confidence and great paragon body fade away moments before he does, and as he creeps from his seal he gives the binder a look of the great fear that only a godmade-mortal can know.
Granted Abilities:
Near-Infinite Stat: While bound to Pun-Pun you can increase your stats. Doing so increases the stat of your choice by 2 points for 1 round. In a non-combat situation this is increased to the duration of 1 ability or skill check. You can use this ability once per short rest.

Powergame: While bound to Pun-Pun, you may swap one of the features of the binder subclass you posess for another of the same level.

Awesome: While bound to Pun-Pun you possess an aura of unstopability. This manifests as a +2 bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to all saving throws.

Divine Squirrels: By hurling the d20 that is Pun-Pun's sign at a target, you sic a celestial squirrel on them. Use the stats for a panther [because I suck at creating custom monster stats]. The squirrel lasts for half your level in rounds (minimum 3), has its own initiative count, and acts according to your bidding.

PACT INFORMATION:
Pun-Pun the Kobold was a creation of the Dungeons and Dragons community, a deity brought into his brief existence by a flare of awed respect for both Pun-Pun and his designer, Khan the Destroyer. Pun-Pun's glory was short-lived, however, as his ruse was soon discovered and Pun-Pun's font of divinity mocked him for the powergamer that he was. However, despite his attempting to immolate himself with the last shred of his power, Pun-Pun lives on as a vestige in much the same way Tenebrous does, as a memory in the coding of the boards and in the minds of players everywhere.

[Prince Zahn]

Dat vestige...:smalleek:
Yeah, I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to judge Pun-Pun at the risk of being struck in melee from nigh-infinite reach for nigh-infinite damage.:smalltongue:

I didn't think about repelling blast, but I kind of meant with a weapon attack. Usually it's either Damage OR shove target, is what I'm saying. Amon could offer both, perhaps a stronger version with more leniency at higher levels. (Ever been hit by a ram, or a mountain goat for that matter? The horns hit pretty hard :p

See: Chapter 8: Combat; "shoving a creature"; towards the end - Any player can already choose between damage and KB/prone. It uses the attack action to push a creature or knock it down. A vestige that would focus on that mechanic should offer more than what is already available. Right?

[The_Doctor]

Aww, really? :smallfrown:

Hah. Speaking of Funny Things...


Banjo
Avatar of Puppets
1st Level vestige
DC: 15
Sign: One of your hands has a green hand puppet in the likeness of a clown attached to it. The clown is holding a banjo, and it is perpetually strumming. It can be passed off as a normal hand puppet, or taken off and hidden.
Manifestation: Kneeling in front of the circle of Banjo you hear a strange strumming noise as the song starts up. This banjo music has been known to cause grown men to wince and panic as it strikes some strange chord within them. An irresistible urge to place one's arm within the summoning circle arises and Banjo appears on the end of the binders arm strumming his banjo with an evil look in his eye. Negotiations are very often swift with the binder promising to find Banjo worshipers and to promote the agenda of puppets. Withdrawing the arm Banjo exits his sign and becomes mostly a simple hand puppet.
Granted Abilities:
Banjelic Seduction: While you use Banjo as a ventriloquist puppet (even if it is blatantly obvious it is you) you gain a bonus to all Charisma based checks equal to half your proficiency bonus.
Friends in High Places: All gods love Banjo, even if they don't know it. Whenever you would be reduced below 0 hitpoints by a spell or other effect that allows a saving throw, you are allowed one reroll on your saving throw. When you would be reduced below 0 by a weapon or other damage, the damage is rerolled and the lower number is used. Once you have used this feature you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
Chords of Terror: Once per short rest as an action, you can cause fear in those within 30 feet. Those in range must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8+Proficiency bonus+charisma modifier) or be stunned for one round. For some reason, males take a -1 penalty to the saving throw.
Wrath of Banjo: Once per long rest, you can use the Paladin's "Divine Smite" ability.
PACT INFORMATION: The mystery of the cult of Banjo has been lost to the mists of time. But it was said that a powerful and charismatic bard inspired a song so perfect that his banjo became sentient to carry on the song for all time. The song's pure dulcet tones inspired worship from all who heard its sweet melody and raised the instrument to divinity. Using a small hand puppet to personify a banjo player and to be its avatar, Banjo went on to gather followers across the world. However due to a horrible fragmenting of the religion and defections from within, and a faulty coffee maker, Banjo's worship fell. At last no one was left but the bard who originally inspired the song, and even he forgot Banjo in pursuit of something shiny.

EDIT: Do you think we could try to convert this, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?68834-The-Stars-Are-Right-Vestiges) this, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?68757-In-His-House-At-R-lyeh-Vestiges) this, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Not-Dead-Which-Can-Eternal-Lie-Vestiges) and this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?85280-Mythos-Vestiges-IV-At-The-Mountains-of-Madness)

[Prince Zahn]

Aww, really? :smallfrown:

Hah. Speaking of Funny Things...


Banjo
Avatar of Puppets
1st Level vestige
DC: 15

EDIT: Do you think we could try to convert this, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?68834-The-Stars-Are-Right-Vestiges) this, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?68757-In-His-House-At-R-lyeh-Vestiges) this, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?69093-Not-Dead-Which-Can-Eternal-Lie-Vestiges) and this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?85280-Mythos-Vestiges-IV-At-The-Mountains-of-Madness)

Cute one :p needs a little 5th editioning but overall adorable.:smallsmile: think of it what you will, I had a PbP adventure a while back with a DM who let me play a binder. He had this eye-opening misconception (that was quickly house rule) that vestiges have alignment descriptors :smalltongue:. It started simple enough, though I was making some homebrew vestiges at the time, and the idea of what a [good] vestige would be like was very inspiring!
...
How I wish that adventure would've lasted :3

As for the homebrew vestige threads, I can't speak for Anaxi on this one, but I presume whatever you model and bring to be worked on or reviewed you may do at your discretion. My priority, on the same token, my priorities regarding vestiges I work and edit start first and foremost with the Tome of Magic, which there's a LOT already that needs the most reinventing.
I was thinking though, that once we finish with a basic package, we could each bring up our own, homebrew vestige to complete the mix. There's no shortage on our own personal characters, after all.

For those curious: my files of vestiges complete, in progress or Queued, in no particular order:
Tenebrous - The Shadow the Was
Paimon - The Dancer
Malphas - the Turnfeather
Amon - The Void before the Altar
Acererak - The Devourer
Andras - the Gray Knight
Naberius - The Grinning Hound

Wish I could sort them, but this is the best I can do this late at night so...
Later!

[The_Doctor]

I fixed Halphax a while back; how is he now?

Behold, a new Vestige! (you can format it proper; I suck at formatting)


Marchosias
King of Killers
7th Level vestige
DC: 17
Sign: Your eyes grow a red-orange color.
Manifestation: Marchosias appears with a bloodcurdling scream in an explosion of fire and black smoke. Though much of the smoke curls away, some remains and slowly coalesces to form a human figure. Marchosias appears as a king with body and raiment composed of swirling smoke and cinders. He wears a crown of fire, beneath which gleam two glowing, hot coals where his eyes should be. Marchosias wields a scepter of flames, and a sword of hot ash is belted to his hip. For a moment, he seems exhausted by the rigors of his arrival, standing with his shoulders slumped and his head bowed. After a moment, he raises his gaze to his summoner and stands straight and tall, adopting an imperious posture.
Granted Abilities:
Death Attack: If you spend 3 rounds of combat studying a target (and taking no other actions), you can make a special melee attack against it. When you do so, you either choose paralyzed or dead. If you hit with your attack, they must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8+your proficiency bonus+your Charisma modifier) or die (if you chose dead) or be paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds (if you chose paralyzed). If they succeed the saving throw, the attack is a normal attack, except it deals extra damage equal to the sneak attack damage of a rouge half of your binder level.
Fiery Retribution: You deal an extra 3d6 fire damage to opponents who can situationally deal extra damage (paladin's Divine Smite, rouge's Sneak Attack, etc.). If you deal this damage with a ranged attack, it only comes into effect when the target is within 30 feet of you.
Smoke Form: You gain the ability to use the gaseous form spell once per short rest, except you can remain gaseous for as long as you wish. You lose all granted abilities of all bound vestiges for the duration, but you do not expel the vestiges or lose the ability to remain in gaseous form. Since you lose death attack, you cannot use this time to study a target.
Silent but Sure: You gain your proficiency bonus as a bonus to all Stealth and Perception checks.
PACT INFORMATION: Marchosias seems to have appeared as a vestige quite recently—in fact, only a short time before Dahlver-Nar did. In life, Marchosias was a human who brought death to others. His favorite targets were other assassins and murderers, but this choice of foes had nothing to do with morals. Despicably evil, Marchosias was obsessed with improving his skill as a killer, and ending the lives of other professional slayers seemed the best challenge he could undertake. When at last Marchosias met his death, his soul traveled to the Nine Hells. The devils gleefully accepted his powerful spirit, but others there took note of his arrival and were not pleased. The spirits of hundreds of thugs, slaughterers, executioners, and assassins banded together and rebelled against their devilish captors—intending not to escape or take control, but to attack Marchosias. Although the devils were loath to allow such lawlessness, they let the souls of the damned fight it out, thinking to step in and punish all the spirits when the battle was over. Marchosias fought well, but he could not prevail against so many foes at once, and he fell under the onslaught. When the devils pulled back the attackers, nothing was left—Marchosias’s soul had been torn to pieces.

[Spiriah]

Made a first draft of Focalor. Still very much a WIP, and I don't have the background stuff besides the manifestation in here. All info is under the spoiler, and I'm looking for feedback.

FOCALOR
Prince of Tears
3rd Level Vestige

Special Requirement: Focalor’s seal must be drawn with a liquid medium.

Manifestation: Focalor manifests slowly, appearing first as a single tear that drops from thin air to strike the ground. Next his weeping eyes appear, and gradually his whole body becomes visible. Focalor looks like a handsome human male whose face is twisted by grief. He wears no clothes, but he cloaks his body in the griffon wings that grow from his back and shudder with each of his wracking sobs.

Sign: While you serve as host to Focalor, your eyes constantly weep, regardless of your mood or thoughts.

Influence: While influenced by Focalor, you feel some of his immense sadness and act morose, rarely smiling or finding cause to laugh. Whenever you kill a creature, Focalor demands that as soon as you have a peaceful moment, you take a round to say a few words of sorrow and regret for the life cut short by your actions.

Abilities:

Focalor's Breath: As a standard action, you can exhale towards a living target within 30 feet. The target must make a Constitution save or be blinded as if by the Blindness/Deafness spell. You can use this ability once per short rest.

Water Breathing: For as long as you are bound to Focalor, you are under the effects of the Water Breathing spell.

Electrifying Touch: You gain the Shocking Grasp cantrip.

Inestimable Grief: While you display Focalor's sign, the sorrow that paints your visage makes you difficult to read. Insight or Perception checks attempting to discern your emotions or intentions have disadvantage, and you have advantage on saves against Detect Thoughts or similar effects that would read your mind.

Lightning Strike: Once per round as a standard action, you can call down a bolt of lightning that strikes any target you designate, as long as it is within 60 feet. This range increases to 120 feet at 11th level. The lightning bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per vestige level of the highest-level vestige you have bound. A successful Dexterity save halves this damage. This ability functions outdoors, indoors, underground, and even underwater.


So, in addition to that, I'm giving him one more ability. Originally I was thinking I'd replicate the 3.5 sadness aura, but that's a numerical modifier and 5e's moved away from that, plus he doesn't have a long rest recharge ability. But there's no Crushing Despair spell in 5e, so I had to make do. Take a look at both of the following abilities and tell me which you prefer (and why), if you please.


Aura of Sadness: You emit an aura of depression and sadness that can overtake even the most strong-willed of creatures. All creatures within 5 feet of you take a -2 to attack rolls, ability checks, and saves. You can suppress or activate this aura as a standard action.

OR

Curse of Despair: You have the ability to inflict an opponent with Focalor’s hopelessness. You can cast Bestow Curse without expending a spell slot, as if using a spell slot of the highest level vestige you have bound. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

[Prince Zahn]

@Marcho:
Are there still any save-or-die effects in 5e? I couldn't seem to really find any at a glance.
The problem, though, is that most battles in 5e usually end within 3 rounds, making Marchosias's infamous death attack... Quite useless.:smallfrown:

I think Fiery Retribution needs some editing. That could be done it at least 3 ways:
Passive DPR against those near you, allow save each round, no other conditions.
At will Fire Shield
An at will explosion aoe? Or is that too much like signature spell?:smalltongue:
2 skill proficiencies?:smalleek: I thought we put this issue to bed already,. 1 Skill prof for 7th level+, a save prof only at 9th level vestiges, if at all.

@Halphax
Other than refraining from static number bonuses, I can't think of what to say on this one anymore, though I still think it would be very cool if he could conjure siege equipment from the DMG, making him a vestige of choice for any binder who seeks conquest and has at least small army, or aims to defend his walls. :smalltongue: Also - why no ethereal block with them walls?:smallconfused:

@Amon
Still missing some zing to him IMHO. have we considered adapting/tweaking the barbarian's Rage? Amon has a LOT of hate to go around xD

@Focalor:
I like Spiriah's version, I'm also a tad biased since it follows my template:smalltongue:
I think we can make a great Focalor by combining the two and using more favorable wording:

Spiriah's version of Focalor's breath
The Doctor's Wording for Water Breathing (it would suck if dispel magic killed you just because you were underwater, wouldn't it?)
Shocking Grasp sounds great addition!
(I'm not that sure any more about cap=highest other vestige bound, because it feels to me like it malfunctions with higher level vestiges, and it also discourages binding low level ones. I think either the math needs some fixing, or we should drop scaling all together, and instead write "this is how it is; this is how it will be starting at level Xth.") Perhaps a combined version of lightning strike mixing both attempts of Focalor? perhaps make it a spell attack? :3
Aura of sadness: how's this for it: You radiate an aura of melancholy and despair that can siphon the fighting spirit of your enemies. Whenever an enemy creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack roll, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on it's next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw until the end of it's next turn. You may not use this effect on the same target for 2 rounds in a row.
I dig Inestimable Grief! It's situational but I think every vestige should have a situational ability.:smalltongue:

[Spiriah]

@Focalor:
I like Spiriah's version, I'm also a tad biased since it follows my template:smalltongue:
Yeah, took some cues from the Naberius you did. That's some of why I gave him Shocking Grasp and Inestimable Grief.


I think we can make a great Focalor by combining the two and using more favorable wording:
The Doctor's Wording for Water Breathing (it would suck if dispel magic killed you just because you were underwater, wouldn't it?)
Whoops! Meant to say that "For as long as you are bound to Focalor, you can breathe water as though you were under the effects of the Water Breathing spell." Dispellability was not intended.:smalltongue:


(I'm not that sure any more about cap=highest other vestige bound, because it feels to me like it malfunctions with higher level vestiges, and it also discourages binding low level ones. I think either the math needs some fixing, or we should drop scaling all together, and instead write "this is how it is; this is how it will be starting at level Xth.") Perhaps a combined version of lightning strike mixing both attempts of Focalor? perhaps make it a spell attack? :3
Yeah, that seemed kinda cumbersome to me too. I think it does need some form of scaling, but scaling based on bound vestige level does seem clunky.


Aura of sadness: how's this for it: You radiate an aura of melancholy and despair that can siphon the fighting spirit of your enemies. Whenever an enemy creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack roll, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on it's next attack roll, ability check, or saving throw until the end of it's next turn. You may not use this effect on the same target for 2 rounds in a row.
Hm. That's a possibility, though maybe change it to when an enemy within 5 feet makes an attack roll. That'd synergize with other melee vestiges, and if you get up close and personal with an enemy, you can use it as a sort of Defender (Is that what it's called? AFB at the moment, thinking of the Fighter style where you impose disadvantage) ability.

Any thoughts on the Bestow Curse idea?


I dig Inestimable Grief! It's situational but I think every vestige should have a situational ability.:smalltongue:

Thanks! TBH, I saw "inestimable grief" in his fluff, and thought "That sounds like an ability name." Would be useful in social situations, methinks - lie with Deception, then give them disadvantage on Insight checks to figure you out.

[The_Doctor]

I'll reduce the wait time on DeathAttack to 2 rounds.

I'll change Fiery Retribution to one of your suggestions.

Cut proficiency bonus in two.

If it is a wall of iron, why should it block ethereal travel?

Technically speaking he was an architect who wanted to protect AGAINST sieges, not cause them (though that would still be awesome).

[Prince Zahn]

Question: How big a must is Turn/Rebuke undead for Tenebrous? If it's not crucial I want to find something else in it's place.
For the record, I'm making Tene to be a 5th level vestige, so some awesome ideas would be awesome.:smallcool:

@Aura of Sadness: I was thinking by design that you would impose disadvantage on the roll after the one that attacked you, it's a little reminiscent of Karmic Aura and the like - great debuff if you have to get hit, that can give everyone in the party a better chance. I tried to compensate the binder having to get hit by not allowing a save. That being said, I don't know how this would interact with critters incapable of emotion.


I'll reduce the wait time on DeathAttack to 2 rounds. I'd rather we not give waiting times for combat abilities at all, let alone one that outright kills, which I don't save-or-dies exist in this edition anyway. Perhaps make it an attack roll where hit=Critical?


Cut proficiency bonus in two. You mean offer 1 skill instead of two, right?


If it is a wall of iron, why should it block ethereal travel? Better Question: if he's a 9th level Vestige, why can't he cast a 5th level spell as intended?

Technically speaking he was an architect who wanted to protect AGAINST sieges, not cause them (though that would still be awesome).[/QUOTE] I'm just saying it would be a cool twist. And his story can be reworded in the adaptation if necessary. I don't work strictly accurate to the ToM either.

[anaximander19]

@Marcho:
Are there still any save-or-die effects in 5e? I couldn't seem to really find any at a glance.
I don't have time for a full reply right now (I'll be back later) but I just spotted this and wanted to note that in 5e, the Banshee has a once-per-day ability that drops anyone who fails a Wisdom save to 0 HP immediately. My party fought one this week; three out of four party members failed the DC13 save and went down; luckily the fourth member was able to stabilise them all before they failed too many death saves.

[Wartex1]

The Open Hand Monk has a save-or-die effect.

[The_Doctor]

I'd rather we not give waiting times for combat abilities at all, let alone one that outright kills, which I don't save-or-dies exist in this edition anyway. Perhaps make it an attack roll where hit=Critical? As pointed out there are save/die effects in this edition.


You mean offer 1 skill instead of two, right?No, I mean give HALF of the proficiency bonus to those checks.


Better Question: if he's a 9th level Vestige, why can't he cast a 5th level spell as intended? Eh, what the heck.


I'm just saying it would be a cool twist. And his story can be reworded in the adaptation if necessary. I don't work strictly accurate to the ToM either.
Sounds like a good idea.

[Prince Zahn]

Okay, good points that a monster can make a save-or-dying attack (brings you to 0HP, but it's possible to survive that, IIRC), and a 17th level monk can too by the time the binder gets 9th level vestiges(thanks to Wartex1 and the OP for bringing it to my critical attention. Stuff to think about when working on the King of Killers.

I'd rather you pick 1 skill maximum rather than offer Half-Proficiencies even if that's a real mechanic it sounds complicated how it interacts with the rest of the game at those levels. I'm just confuzzled, I guess..

@Spiriah, my gut feeling says bestow curse is fine at it's lowest level, but beyond that I feel it would be overkill. A different ability would be better to scale, though this one concerns me.

Inb4:

Question: How big a must is Turn/Rebuke undead for Tenebrous? If it's not crucial I want to find something else in it's place.
For the record, I'm planning to bump Tene up to being a 5th level vestige, and would probably deserve something new and shiny. So some awesome ideas would be awesome.:smallcool:

[The_Doctor]

Can I get some feedback on Pun-Pun, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19355021&postcount=69) Primus, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19346908&postcount=62) and Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19359676&postcount=71) please? I need feedback on my creations!

[Spiriah]

Can I get some feedback on Pun-Pun, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19355021&postcount=69) Primus, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19346908&postcount=62) and Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19359676&postcount=71) please? I need feedback on my creations!
Feedback on Primus:
- Divine Structure retains its clunkiness from 3.5. I'd either be more specific (what're the restrictions on "the same actions"?), or change the ability to something different.
- Lawful Presence is just broken, especially with generous interpretation of "chaotic manner". I'd probably either allow a save or make the restriction more tangible, possibly both.
- Order of Primus is fine. Maybe have it scale somehow, though I dunno what it'd scale based on.


@Prince Zahn: Yeah, I can see that. Any ideas for a replacement? Or should we go with the Aura?

[The_Doctor]

Divine Structure has been fixed to affect enemies as well (if they fail a save of course), as well as making it so it only keeps track of attack actions.
Lawful Presence has the chaotic manner part removed, as well as a clause for loopholes. It also allows a save now.
Order of Primus has been updated to be usable at will once you reach level 18.

Now can I get feedback on Pun-Pun and Banjo please?

[Prince Zahn]

@Spiriah and The_Doctor: the wizards down by the coast advise against static bonuses or penalties in this edition for classes and races. I think we should heed that advice and adjust accordingly.

Just gonna drop this off for examination...
TENEBROUS
The Shadow That Was
5th Level vestige
DC:
Seal:
Sign: you appear to have another Shadow cast behind you, even if there is no light to form it.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
Languages: Abyssal

SLAY LIGHT
While you are bound to Tenebrous, your newfound affinity for the dark can shy away lit flames and fireflies. sources of light (such as torches) emit bright light and dim light out to half the normal distance when within 50 feet of you. Non-magical sources of illumination are extinguished when they enter within your vicinity, or when you approach them, and can not be lit within your presence. In addition, you can use your action to dispel a single spell of 3rd level of lower that emits an area of light. Once you have done so, this ability turns inactive until you complete a short rest.

GRAVE DARKNESS
You know the darkness spell and can cast it at will. In addition: While you have an area of magical darkness at your control, you can use a bonus action to activate any of the following effects within the darkness, and raising the level of . These effects last for 1 minute or until the darkness is dispelled, unless specified otherwise:

Shadows of the damned crowd the darkness and hinder movement. making every 1 foot of movement inside the darkness cost an additional 1 foot of movement. At 15th level, the area remains unnaturally silent the area also becomes an area of magical silence
the shadows begin to latch creatures within the area and trap them. within the darkness must succeed on a strength saving through or be restrained for the duration. Once restrained in this fashion, a creature can make a new save each round to end the effect on itself, is is freed by another creature with a DC 15 strength check.
An undead manifests itself in the darkness and patrols it. You can summon an undead creature of challenge rating of 5 or lower. It appears in an unoccupied space within an area of magical darkness within 60 feet. The undead creature disappears when it drops to 0 HP or if it ever ends it's turn in normal or bright light.
The undead is friendly to you and your companions for the duration. Roll initiative for the undead, which has it's own turns. It obeys any verbal commands that you issue it (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to the undead, it either defends itself from hostile creatures and steers clear of bright light but otherwise takes no actions. The undead can see can perceive other creatures and objects without difficulty from in all forms of illumination besides normal or bright light. The undead creature deems all excessive noisiness and violence near it (sans your commands for it) as a threat and becomes hostile to creatures who engage in such action. At 17th level, you summon a second undead of the same kind with a single activation. Any Undead summoned this way disappears 1 minute after it is summoned.

You can only have one such effect active at a time, and can only be dismissed if you end your concentration on the spell, or if the darkness is dispelled. You can use any above additional effects of Grave Darkness to a total of 3 times, after which you can not enhance darkness in this fashion until you complete a short rest.

SENSE THE SHADOWS
You can see through all forms of darkness (even those created with magic) with perfect clarity, and can sense the presence of any living creatures within 100 feet that are in an area of magical darkness and their quantity, even if otherwise heavily obscured. The latter sensory effect only reveals the presence of living creatures within magical Darkness, and does not reveal to you their exact location if you can not intuit it in conjunction with your normal senses.

RIME OF EMPTINESS
Tenebrous grants you the cold sorrow of the abyss to release by including pain upon your foes. Choose either cold or Necrotic energy, All of your melee weapon attacks deal an additional +1d4 damage of the chosen energy type. You can change the energy type you choose once per round.

FLICKER
Tenebrous grants you the ability to fade into the shadows at the most opportune moments. You know the Blink Spell. At any point, when a creature makes an attack roll against you, you can use your reaction to cast the Blink Spell without expending a spell slot, and roll your first d20 immediately, as per the spell's effect. You can cast Blink in this fashion once at 9th level, and again at 17th level, before needing a long rest to do so again.
(E/N: An Awakened Binder bound to Tenebrous should also has these spells available IMO until the pact ends)


PACT INFORMATION:

retelling of the legend, notable factors when binding with a vestige.

If you make a poor pact with Tenebrous, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Bond
The loss of something or someone dear to me, or the fear in me that I will lose something or someone forever, aches profoundly in my heart, .


Flaw:
My business and wellbeing is of no concern for my allies. I can handle it myself.


Compiled reference List of vestiges currently in the workshop: (I'd recommend copy-pasting this to the original post, as well as any updates to the Binder class)

1st
Amon, The Void Before The Altar.[
According to The_Doctor. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19346386&postcount=60)
OR
According to Prince Zahn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19509488&postcount=136)
Dahlver-Nar, The Tortured One. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19450897&postcount=100) courtesy of The_Doctor.
Naberius, The Grinning Hound. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19315984&postcount=40) courtesy of Prince Zahn, aka Yours Truly.

Ronove, the Iron Maiden. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19455620&postcount=107) (Draft) Courtesy of Spiriah.
2nd
Leraje, The Green Herald. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19450897&postcount=100) by Prince Zahn.
3rd
Focalor, the Price of Tears:
As Told by The_Doctor. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19334855&postcount=47)
And
As Told by Spiriah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19369900&postcount=74). & Take 2. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19455620&postcount=107) (Spiriah)

Paimon - The Dancer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19350691&postcount=63) The Prince Zahn version.
Primus - The One And Prime. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19346908&postcount=62) by The Doctor.
4th
Coming Soon!
5th
Tenebrous, The Shadow That Was. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19394949&postcount=86) brought to you by Prince Zahn.
6th
7th

Acererak, The Devourer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19475170&postcount=116) courtesy of Scarce.
Marchosias, King of Killers. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19363783&postcount=73) by The_Doctor.
8th
9th
Halphax, The Angel In The Angle. (]http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19328087&postcount=45) by The_Doctor.
Misc.
Banjo, Avatar of Puppets. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19359676&postcount=71) by The_Doctor.


Bigger, The Native Son. (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19450941&postcount=101) As told by The_Doctor.
Emerald Lama, Nightmare FuelThe corrupter. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19505718&postcount=135)Brought to you by The_Doctor.
The King In Yellow,
Lord of Carcosa (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19511958&postcount=139). By The_Doctor.
Last King of Carcosa. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19518152&postcount=143) By Scarce.

Pun-Pun, Lord of the Powergame. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19355021&postcount=69) As portrayed by The_Doctor.

I only wrote what I'm done with, because I can't make such assumptions for others.:smallredface:
Overall I think this is not a bad pace!:smallsmile: I'm quite proud of being part of this and making the 5e binder a real possibility. Though if anyone has unfinished vestiges, get cracking so they would be ready for the day we could playtest our beautiful hereticBinder! :3

[Spiriah]

Alright, working on finishing up Focalor. I'm thinking that I'll go with the following for the Aura:

Aura of Sadness:You emit an aura of depression and sadness that can overtake even the most strong-willed of creatures. When a creature within 5 feet of you hits with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to sap its fighting spirit with feelings of guilt and misery. For one round, you can impose disadvantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw it makes. A creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less isn’t affected.
As for Focalor's Lightning scaling, maybe it deals 1d6 damage per level of the highest-level vestige you can bind? So it'd start at 3d6, but cap out at 9 at level 18 (which is strange, should that be changed to match spell levels?).

[Prince Zahn]

Waiting for someone to read Tenebrous (I know that there's a lot to read and the post as a whole was anything but elegant. Sorry about that:smallredface:) My next project, in the meantime, is Malphas, the Turnfeather (http://www.imarvintpa.com/Mapping/Overlays/Symbols/BlackMagic_Malphas.png). He's one of my personal favorites, frankly. The original Malphas description in the pact magic sectioms go:
Malphas allows his summoners to see without being seen, to pass through surroundings without leaving any sign, to vanish from sight, and to poison their enemies.

Malphas never really granted a direct ability that let his binders pass without a trace. which is something that I want to add without actually using the spell "pass without trace", which I think gives a bonus that's really a bit too much. (+10 to stealth checks for 1 hour is like a "get out of jail free" card for the entire group.:smalleek:)
I'm struggling with deciding how many uses of invisibility Malphas Allows. placing a cap disappoints me and removing a cap feels exploitable. same goes for any limitations I might need to apply. I failed to write a version of Malphas's invisibility that I'm happy with.

Any ideas? Thoughts suggestions? Either of Malphas or part of a Tenebrous critique?

[The_Doctor]

I like Tenebrous: Very flavorful yet balanced (though I could have some fun with a Tiefling Binder using Darkness >:) )

EDIT: Fixed up Halphax and Amon. Now can I please have more feedback on Pun-Pun and Banjo?

EDIT2:

Hello ladies. Look at your man. Now back to me.
Now back to your man. Now back to me.
Sadly, he isn't me. But if he stopped sitting on his butt and started binding Paimon he could fence like me.
Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're in a ballroom with the man your man could fence like.
What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It is a jewel-encrusted sword. Look again. The sword is now flaming.
Anything's possible when your man fights like Paimon and not a wimp.
I'm on a horse.

[Prince Zahn]

EDIT2:

Hello ladies. Look at your man. Now back to me.
Now back to your man. Now back to me.
Sadly, he isn't me. But if he stopped sitting on his butt and started binding Paimon he could fence like me.
Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're in a ballroom with the man your man could fence like.
What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It is a jewel-encrusted sword. Look again. The sword is now flaming.
Anything's possible when your man fights like Paimon and not a wimp.
I'm on a horse. ...And one pact magic internet goes to you, too, doctor, but only because that meme is about as old as Paimon :smalltongue:



EDIT: Fixed up Halphax and Amon. Now can I please have more feedback on Pun-Pun and Banjo? I'll take another gander at Halphax and Amon soon. You've waited long enough for Pun-Pun and Banjo :3

@Pun-Pun:

Powergame should either have a use limit or a level cap, perhaps both. That would probably dictate how powerful Pun-Pun could really be, and give a better idea at his overall level. On a personal level, I imagine he would fit right in around 4th level.
(Everything is –)Awesome: +2 AC and +1 to all saves probably won't interact well with other stuff we have for the binder (like pact augmentations
Divine Squirrels: one of my favorite Pun-Pun shenanigans :p needs more love: if you were to roll with attaining P-P (wow, even his initials are meta P-P) at 7th Level, an equivalent 4th level spell you might find as a useful reference is conjure minor Elemental, and the rest of that family of varying spell power. I figure rather than 1 divine squirrel, you can sic 8 of them on someone, or something.
Overall needs work, but you have potential. Probably needs more abilities of his own IMO.


@Banjo:

Banjelic seduction: (kudos on making it sound like Elan came up with it!) again, I have no idea where this "half proficiency" thing came from, but I'm not very find of it. Perhaps adding a less focused ability modifier (maybe dexterity or Intelligence?), and requiring you to bear his sign to use it? Or add 1d4 to the checks? Simple and not easy to make the game malfunction (again, avoiding static modifiers when possible, as WotC strongly suggested).
This way, Banjo gives a benefit via puppetry, and puppetry is a niche without Jeff Dunham.
Friends in High Places is a too strong a safety net for a first level vestige.
In the same sense, Chords of Terror's AoE stun is a powerful debuff, also, we don't need to keep saying how the Binder's abilities calculate save DCs, unless you make an exception. it's safe to assume the norm is 8+Proficiency Bonus+Charisma Modifier.
Wrath of Banjo is essentially Divine Smite, but divine smite requires spell slots, which the binder does not normally get, Awakened subclass notwithstanding.
Some abilities are strong, others are weak or nonfunctional with this one. Work on that, play with the wording, find a clever solution, but let's try to avoid inventing new mechanics when possible. :)

[Prince Zahn]

Where did everybody go..?

I started writing up Leraje, but encountered a few difficulties recreating his ricochet ability... :smallconfused: was hoping I could get a little help.

[Spiriah]

Where did everybody go..?
Sorry, been a little busy over the last week. Started working on writing up Ronove, though, and I'm drafting Otiax ideas.


I started writing up Leraje, but encountered a few difficulties recreating his ricochet ability... :smallconfused: was hoping I could get a little help.
What do you have for her so far? I think there's a Battlemaster maneuver that may be applicable, but I'm AFB right now.

[Scarce]

Where did everybody go..?

I started writing up Leraje, but encountered a few difficulties recreating his ricochet ability... :smallconfused: was hoping I could get a little help.

What kind of trouble? I would probably just be using the Ranger's volley feature with slight modifications. That's an 11th level feature though, so if you need you could reduce the power by limiting it to 2 creatures using the same attack roll, rather than rolling separately.

[Prince Zahn]

What kind of trouble? I would probably just be using the Ranger's volley feature with slight modifications. That's an 11th level feature though, so if you need you could reduce the power by limiting it to 2 creatures using the same attack roll, rather than rolling separately.

I have qualms about that, too, Even if you're just striking 2 targets at once. Unless it takes an action, striking 2 enemies with one action can be some serious leverage at 1st level, but quickly becomes weak once everyone else gets extra attacks.
I was thinking in the direction of Volley too, tbh. Perhaps for a high level upgrade?

Also, I'm thinking of making Leraje a 2nd level vestige (instead of a 1st). This way I would might have a little more wiggle room to give Binders better archery tools. This would also mean that there's room for another vestige to be 1st level, for whoever dares to downgrade a vestige :smallsmile:

[anaximander19]

I'm back!

Sorry for the extended absence, guys - in short, there was a death in the family, followed by a couple of the curveballs life likes to throw sometimes, and I've been spending a lot of time either getting life straightened out or thoroughly exhausted and unable to work on homebrew. Anyways, that should all be sorted now, and I'm working on the Binder again.

In other news, my group played the other day, and gave the Binder its first field test! Not much to report; most of the session was social and skills stuff - great fun, good plot progression, but not really a test of a character build. Next week's session looks like it'll be combat-heavy, though, so I'll see how the Binder fares and report back.

So, on with the homebrew! I'm starting to flesh out the Binder's Fates, so that our Binder can make an informed choice on which one to pick - it's hard to decide if you don't know what abilities they get past 7th level. First up is the Unfettered:


Unfettered
In their work with vestiges, binders study magics that pierce the planes and transcend the natural laws of the universe. Some even learn to leave behind their physical form and experience the world as a vestige would.

Intangible Presence
At 3rd level, you learn to manipulate the fabric of the planes so that your presence makes less of a mark in the physical world. Once per short rest, you can make yourself indistinct and harder to detect. For one minute, or as long as you maintain concentration (whichever is shortest), you appear as a blurred and partly transparent shape. While this effect lasts, you gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and you can't be tracked by non-magical means. In addition, when standing on a surface, hanging, or being lifted, you appear to weigh half your normal weight, and you are not affected by non-magical wind and air currents. Once you use this ability, you can't use it again until you complete a long or short rest.

Otherworldly Escape
At 7th level, your knowledge of the nature of existence allows you to alter your reality to avoid harm. When you take damage, you can use your reaction to turn invisible and teleport up to 60 feet to an unoccupied space you can see. You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or until you attack or cast a spell. Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

Warp The Mind
At 13th level, you gain a vestige's ability to alter the personality of a mortal mind. Once per short rest, you may choose any creature that you can see within 120 feet that is not a celestial, fiend, or fey. This creature must make a Wisdom save against your Binder spell DC. On a failed save, you may choose one effect from the following list:


Amnesia: the creature cannot learn new information. It will continue to act and react as they would normally, but at the start of each turn they choose their actions as they would have when the spell effect began. For example, if a creature that it previously considered friendly attacks, they will instinctively defend themselves, but on their next turn they will still consider the creature to be friendly. similarly, if an item is moved, they will still look for it in its old location first, and begin searching from there.
Recklessness: the creature acts without thought for its own safety. The creature takes a -2 penalty to AC and has disadvantage on all saving throws. The creature will not act counter to its interests or take actions that are purely self-harming, but it will not attempt to avoid taking damage from environmental effects, traps, etc. while carrying out its actions.
Unconfidence: the creature acts without assertiveness or belief. The creature has disadvantage on all skill checks and Charisma saves. In addition, if the creature has any ability or spellcasting that can be resisted with a Charisma save, the DC for that save is reduced by 2.
Fury: the creature cannot control its temper, becoming aggressive and volatile. The creature is quick to anger, even towards friends. In combat, the creature will attack whichever creature last dealt it damage. It cannot maintain concentration for more than one round.


The effect lasts for 5 rounds, or until you lose concentration, whichever is sooner.

Unreality
At 17th level, [limited short-range Etherealness-type ability]



The effects of Warp The Mind are new; I'd appreciate some feedback there. I'd like a selection of effects: amnesia, recklessness, unconfidence, fury, and perhaps one other. The exact mechanical impact of those is very much up for discussion.

I'd also like input on Unreality. Basically the idea is that they phase out of the plane they're on, becoming invisible, untouchable, able to walk through walls and see through minor illusions (so, kinda like Etherealness with a much shorter duration, with a hint of True Seeing) but I'm having trouble with the wording.

Some work on the Awakened will follow later.

[BRKNdevil]

wow, that sucks, I hope things are better now emotionally

[Prince Zahn]

Welcome back, Anaxi! You had me worried for quite a while. Sorry to hear about the family tragedy, I hope things will get better for you from here.

I'm diggin' the unfettered Binder :D it looks really for a stealth and intrigue campaign, my advice: effects you impose with warp the mind would be ideal if useful out of combat too - Amnesia is a great example of this.

Looking forward to the awakened Binder, I started rewriting some of my vestiges to read "You know the ____ spell", to make it compatible with this particular Binder Fate.

I'm actually most curious to see what you will do with the warped binder, whatever it is, I just hope it would be compatible with the vestige's combatant signs (I.e. Having Amon's Sign only empowers your warped Binder Horns, etc.)

Finally, I'm thrilled that you got to playtesting! I hope you and your buddies tried Naberius for the role play session :3

Battery low, chat you guys later, reply quick though so much left to say!

[anaximander19]

A slightly updated Warp The Mind:

Warp The Mind
At 13th level, you gain a vestige's ability to alter the personality of a mortal mind. Once per short rest, you may choose any creature that you can see within 120 feet that is not a celestial, fiend, or fey. This creature must make a Wisdom save against your Binder spell DC. On a failed save, you may choose one effect from the following list:

Amnesia: the creature cannot learn new information. It will continue to act and react as it would normally, but at the start of each turn it chooses its actions as it would have when the spell effect began. For example, if a creature that it previously considered friendly attacks, this creature will instinctively defend itself, but on their next turn they will still consider the creature to be friendly. Similarly, if an item is moved, they will still look for it in its old location first, and begin searching from there.
Recklessness: the creature acts without thought for its own safety. The creature takes a -2 penalty to AC and has disadvantage on all saving throws. The creature will not act counter to its interests or take actions that are purely self-harming, but it will not attempt to avoid taking damage from environmental effects, traps, etc. while carrying out its actions. A creature under this effect does not make long-term plans or think tactically, either in combat, or in other actions such as negotiations or business deals. The creature has disadvantage on all Wisdom (Persuasion) checks to make advantageous deals, and all Wisdom (Insight) checks to detect when it is being conned.
Unconfidence: the creature acts without assertiveness or belief. The creature has disadvantage on all skill checks and Charisma saves. In addition, if the creature has any ability or spellcasting that can be resisted with a Charisma save, the DC for that save is reduced by 2. The creature has disadvantage on all Charisma (Performance) and Charisma (Intimidation) checks.
Fury: the creature cannot control its temper, becoming aggressive and volatile. The creature is quick to anger, even towards friends. In combat, the creature will attack whichever creature last dealt it damage. It cannot maintain concentration for more than one round. The creature has disadvantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks.

The effect lasts for 5 rounds, or until you lose concentration; whichever is sooner.
As well as clarifying the wording in places, I've also added some effects that help outside of combat, as suggested - I did want these to have social uses as well as combat ones, so I've attempted to make that happen. No idea if this is balanced, so if anyone has suggestions then feel free to poke holes in it.

I'm trying to think of something that makes sense for Binders to get that augments their spellcasting. Arcane Trickster Rogues get a load of fun uses for mage hand, and I like that. For a Binder, though, I can't think of a cantrip that stands out as being thematically appropriate, except perhaps friends for how they make deals and convince vestiges to aid them. As for how that could be augmented... not sure. Any suggestions?

Finally, our Binder did actually take Naberius - it's working ok so far, but like I said, we didn't get far enough for a thorough test. Noble Bloodhound allowed us to work out which of the yuan-ti we'd been captured by was in charge, and I can think of some ways that some of his other abilities might be helpful given our predicament. The other vestige bound was my hasty conversion of Andras, who has ended up dropping from a 4th level to a 3rd, unless I can think of something to boost him back up. I'll post that conversion soon - I left the sheet with the guy who plays the Binder, so I'll have to remember what I wrote.

[The_Doctor]

Sorry for my absence; I haven't been browsing the forums much lately. Anyway, time to do a partial conversion! (I say partial because Zahn & Friends are better at the new form of Influence than I am).


Dahvler-Nar
The Tortured One
1st Level vestige
DC: 13
Sign: Several teeth grow from your scalp. Though they are small enough to be hidden by a large quantity of hair or a hat, a touch reveals them immediately.
Manifestation: Dahlver-Nar’s frightful apparition floats in the air above his seal, with arms and legs hanging limply. Teeth and fangs of all kinds stud his entire body, replacing even his eyes. What skin is visible between the teeth appears to be the moist, pink flesh of gums. Dahlver-Nar’s mouth is a bloody ruin that clearly lacks teeth, and when he opens it to speak, only a moan issues forth. Some binders believe that his vestige form is a punishment inflicted by the other vestiges, but others insist that he appears as he does because of his everlasting obsession with the teeth that bear his name.
Granted Abilities:
PROFICIENCIES
You gain no proficiencies from binding Dahlver-Nar.

Mad Soul: You have advantage on saving throws against effects that would deal psychic damage.

Maddening Moan: Once per short rest you can, as an action, emit a moan that causes all creatures within 30 feet to make a Wisdom saving throw or be stunned for 1 round and take 1d6 thunder and psychic damage.

Natural Armor: You gain a bonus to your base AC equal to half your Constitution modifier.

Shield Self: As an action on your turn, you can designate one target within 30 feet to recieve half the damage that you take. Therefore you only take half damage from attacks, and the target takes the other half. If you designate a different creature, the first creature is released from this power's effects. An unwilling target can make a Charisma saving throw to negate the effect.

PACT INFORMATION:
Bards tell two stories of Dahlver-Nar, both linked to the magic items that carry his name—the teeth of Dahlver-Nar. Some say that because Dahlver-Nar was antiquity’s most powerful cleric, his followers treated his teeth as holy relics after his death and they somehow gained magical powers through this veneration. Others insist that Dahlver-Nar was a cleric of little consequence who discovered some magic dragon teeth in the ruins of a red dragon’s lair. In this version of the story, the teeth were named after Dahlver-Nar because he became a terror in the region where he acquired them. Binder scholars know a different story—that Dahlver-Nar was a powerful cleric who forsook his deity to pursue the power of pact magic. The fabled teeth of Dahlver-Nar, to which all the legends attribute miraculous powers, were neither his own nor those of the dragon he battled. They were the teeth of beings that became vestiges after death, and they could grant abilities similar to those that the vestiges themselves imparted. Pact magic treatises relate that Dahlver-Nar pulled out his own teeth and replaced them with those of the vestiges, but that using them all drove him mad. What happened thereafter is a matter of debate, but the texts maintain that Dahlver-Nar eventually died, and the teeth were lost, divided up among the squabbling followers he had managed to gain and then spread across the world. Today, Dahlver-Nar exists as a vestige in his own right—perhaps brought to that state through his close association with so many others.

[Prince Zahn]

Here's Leraje, very tentative right now, but I hope she looks cool enough:
LERAJE
The Green Herald
2nd Level vestige:
DC: 13
Seal:
Sign: Your skin appears sickly and Pockmarked.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
Tools: Shortbow, Longbow

PRECISE SHOT
Leraje guides your arrows through harsh conditions. Treat wind conditions as one step more favorable when determining how it affects your ranged weapon attacks (If desired: Strong wind is treated as Light, Light wind is treated as none. Destructive windstorms, such as tornados where archery would normally be near impossible, are treated as strong winds for the purposes of firing a shot). in addition, firing a bow underwater does not impose disadvantage to your attack roll while you are bound to Leraje.

MASK OF THE WILD
You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena. if you are a wood elf, you instead gain advantage on hiding checks when lightly (or heavily) obscured by natural phenomena.

GUST
You learn the Gust Cantrip, mentioned in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion, page 19. Starting at 9th level, you can cast this Cantrip as a Bonus Action.

LERAJE'S ARROW
As part of your attack action, When you make an ranged weapon attack roll against a creature within range, You can choose for Leraje to simultaneously fire an ethereal, parallel arrow at a creature of your choosing within 5 feet of the creature you struck (or the same creature, if it is large or larger) roll a separate attack roll using the same attack bonus as your arrow, On a success, the attack deals force damage equal to 1d6 + your dexterity modifier + your Charisma Modifier. Once you have used this ability, you can not do so again until you complete a long rest. Starting at 8th level, this feature can instead deal force damage equal the damage delt by the ranged weapon attack it replicates, or 1d8 + your Dexterity Modifer + your charisma modifier (your choice), and you can use this feature twice before needing a long rest. Starting at 13th level, you can instead use Leraje's arrow to conjure your own volley of arrows. You can use Leraje's Arrow three times before needing a long rest, And can use this feature to make an attack roll against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point within your weapon's range. You must make a separate attack roll for each creature, and each attack deals force damage equal to the ranged weapon's damage, or 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Charisma modifier (your choice) to each creature you hit.
Regardless of the version chosen, or how many times you can use Leraje's arrow, you can use this feature up to once per turn, and you still require ammunition for the original attack, as normal.

LIGHT OF THE MOONSTRUCK
You know the spell Moonbeam and can cast in once without expending a spell slot, nor needing somatic or material components. Once you have used Moonbeam in this fashion, you can not do so again until you complete a short or long rest.

PACT INFORMATION:
Tales of Leraje's prowess with the bow and arrow exist to this day, although other great heroes and deities are now praised her deeds, turning her tale into words of heresy among elvenkind. Though pact magic treatises maintain that a great elven god called upon Leraje to be his first herald among mortals. She taught the elves how to make and use bows, though none could come close to matching her talents. Legend holds that she slain Thessala, the goddess of hydras, by shooting a single Arrow through all one thousand of her heads, thereby causing her children, the hydras, to be dull and crude for the rest of eternity.
One night, When Leraje saved the Elf deity's lover from an bloodthirsty weretiger, before the woman fell to corruption and rose to divinity herself, the woman praised Leraje for her skills, claiming that not one elf, nor even their deity could shoot an arrow as fast and as precise as the valiant herald. Leraje beamed under the compliment, and the bemused lord of the Elves challenged Leraje to an archery duel to settle the matter once and for all. When his herald agreed to the challenge, the deity declared their target: her heart.
The elven god expected his servant to realize the error of her pride and yield the contest, but she instead brought up her bow, and aimed it at her master, and pulled back the string. Though surprised, the deity raised his own bow and fired at her at the same moment she released her bowstring. Leraje aimed not at the god but at the arrow heading that sped toward her heart. The two Arrows met point to point midair as Leraje's Arrow ricocheted back, piercing Leraje's heart before her master's arrowhead even touched her chest. As punishment for wasting her life for the sake of her stubborn pride, the Elven Deity banished Leraje's soul from the heavens and the earth.
Leraje has had countless generations in isolation to reflect upon her mistakes, and expects her binders to use her powers with humility. Leraje can impose disadvantage on any Charisma check to bind her if she suspects you will use her powers for the sake of winning honor or prestige. On the same token, she is a significantly more submissive and guilt-ridden when binding with elves, granting advantage to binders who exploit it. You can may also gain advantage on the pact if you can convince Leraje that her powers will be used to atone for a misdeed or mistake.

If you make a poor pact with Leraje, she influences your personality in one of the following ways:





Influence

Description





Personality Trait

As of late, I am too timid to speak my mind, nor to jump to conclusions.





Personality Trait

I feel an unshakable guilt when around elves, and other elven blooded creatures.




I wanted to add the archery fighting style, but I feared it might be too much:smallredface: your thoughts?

[The_Doctor]

And a vestige based on a book I am reading:


BIGGER
The Native Son
3rd Level vestige
DC: 15
Sign: Your skin takes on a dark tone, and you always smell faintly of smoke.
Manifestation: Fog covers the seal, and the smell of burning wood is overpowering. A strange machine rumbles out of the smoke, made of metal, with four wheels. A door on the machine opens, and Bigger steps out. He is a 20-year old man with dark skin, and he talks in friendly terms with the binder if he is male. If it is a female binder then he talks nervously.
Granted Abilities:

PROFICIENCIES
You gain proficiency in Undercommon while bound to bigger. You are also proficient in improvised weapons.

Bigger's Bluff: You gain advantage on Charisma (Deception) and Charisma (Persuade) checks made on anyone of a higher social standing than you.

Mark of a Murderer: You have advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Wisdom (Perception) checks against singular creatures.. In addition once per long rest you can add the sneak attack damage of a rogue of half your binder level to an attack you just made.

Shocking Revalation: Once per short rest, you can force on your foe a horrible revelation about the world. You must succeed on a ranged spell attack. If you hit, the target takes 2d6 psychic damage and is stunned for 1 round. The damage increases to 5d6 and the stun 2 rounds at level 10, 7d6 and 3 round stun at level 15, and 10d6 and 4 round stun at level 20.

Chauffeur: You have advantage on Wisdom (Animal Handling) checks against beasts of burden or riding animals and on Wisdom (Survival) checks to avoid getting lost.

Lung Smoke: As an action, you can force a target within 30 feet to make a Constitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 round.

PACT INFORMATION: Bigger lived in a world that was ruled by those with "pure" skin tone, and Bigger was a chauffeur for one of the more rich "pure" households. He accidentally killed their daughter in a moment of panic and burned the body. Eventually he redeemed himself, but the gods could not get over their horror (for the gods of this world were different than the ones of ours). They banished his soul from the cosmos.

[Prince Zahn]

I think also adding an intelligence requirement for warp the mind might be in order, I can imagine quite a few creatures that are either too stupid to be affected, or have questionable sentience besides killing/eating people out of instinct/direct orders from a wizard.
Perhaps adding the potential for friendly fire under fury might make things a little interesting, such as attacking the nearest creature if it wasn't attacked in the previous turn. :3

If the unfettered Binder gets trackless step, I might need to consider giving something else to Malphas...

@Doctor: a few lingo notes:

avoid flat numerical bonuses to anything but damage in 5e like the plague,with very few exceptions (I.e. fighting styles)
5e natural armor doesn't add an AC bonus. Instead, you get a higher base AC, like: While not wearing armor, your AC equals 12+ your Dexterity Modifier.
What are everyone's thoughts about the shield self ability demanding a Charisma saving throw?


@influence::smallconfused: all I do is make a miniature table based on the traits, ideals, bonds and flaws in the basic rules/players handbook, and tell DM and player to just pick one of these two options when you make a poor pact with __________. It's not as hard as it looks :smallsmile:

[The_Doctor]

Changed Mad Soul, fixed Natural Armor, and edit-ed Shield Self to require a Charisma saving throw.

[Prince Zahn]

And a vestige based on a book I am reading:


PACT INFORMATION: Bigger lived in a world that was ruled by those with "pure" skin tone, and Bigger was a chauffeur for one of the more rich "pure" households. He accidentally killed their daughter in a moment of panic and burned the body. Eventually he redeemed himself, but the gods could not get over their horror (for the gods of this world were different than the ones of ours). They banished his soul from the cosmos.

What book is this? I don't recognize it :smallredface: it sounds like historical fiction, but then again, I don't read as many novels as I'd like to.

Also:


PACT INFORMATION:

(retelling of the legend in a spoiler, followed by notable factors when binding with the vestige, like things a binder might do to try to gain advantage of disadvantage on binding the vestige.)

If you make a poor pact with ___________, s/he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence A)


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence B)


This is the basic template I use. You can copy it if you want. The important thing to remember in this here template is that the vestige no longer demands you to do things, but rather incentivizes certain behavior with the prospect of gaining inspiration, a binder essentially embraces on 1 out of 2 additional traits, ideals, bonds or Flaws from every vestige he makes a poor pact with. It's not too difficult, but I would reserve giving flaws as an influence for 4th level vestiges and up. :smallsmile:

[anaximander19]

I finally had some ideas for what to give the Awakened Binder. Basically, a vestige chooses its manifestations and appearance to manipulate mortals. Everything about them is based on getting mortals to bind them and let them act as they wish. So, it makes sense that an Awakened Binder is good at that sort of stuff too. (The other direction that makes thematic sense is to go with reality-warping stuff, but Unfettered already has that covered).

So, here's what I have so far. It's very rough, so feel free to tear it to bits

First, a recap of the spellcasting part:

Awakened
The energies of the void outside the planes are potent and varied, and at each summoning these energies seep from the portal that a binder opens to the beyond. Over time, an Awakened Binder finds that they have gained a residual pool of energy that they can call upon.

Spellcasting
When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. See PHB chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and PHB chapter 11 for the sorcerer spell list.

Cantrips. You learn the cantrip minor illusion and one other cantrip of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. You learn another sorcerer cantrip of your choice at 8th, 13th and 19th level.

Spell Slots. The Awakened Binder Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell charm person and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast charm person using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher. You know two 1st-level sorcerer spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the conjuration and illusion spells on the sorcerer spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Awakened Binder Spellcasting table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be a conjuration or illusion spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 8th level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level. The spells you learn at 7th, 13th, 17th and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the sorcerer spells you know with another spell of your choice from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be a conjuration or illusion spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 7th, 13th, 17th or 20th level.

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic relies on your ability to project your will into the world. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a sorcerer spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Awakened Binder Spellcasting

|Level|Cantrips Known|Spells Known|1st |2nd |3rd |4th |
|-----|:------------:|:----------:|:--:|:--:|:--:|:--:|
|3rd | 2 | 2 | 2 | - | - | - |
|4th | 2 | 3 | 3 | - | - | - |
|5th | 2 | 3 | 3 | - | - | - |
|6th | 2 | 3 | 3 | - | - | - |
|7th | 2 | 4 | 4 | 1 | - | - |
|8th | 3 | 4 | 4 | 1 | - | - |
|9th | 3 | 4 | 4 | 1 | - | - |
|10th | 3 | 5 | 5 | 2 | - | - |
|11th | 3 | 5 | 5 | 2 | - | - |
|12th | 3 | 5 | 5 | 2 | - | - |
|13th | 4 | 6 | 5 | 2 | - | - |
|14th | 4 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | - |
|15th | 4 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 1 | - |
|16th | 4 | 6 | 5 | 3 | 2 | - |
|17th | 4 | 7 | 5 | 3 | 2 | - |
|18th | 4 | 7 | 5 | 3 | 3 | - |
|19th | 5 | 7 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 1 |
|20th | 5 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 1 |

Table in raw Markdown format because converting it is a hassle
Now, how's this for an ability?


Emotive Illusion
At 7th level, you learn to emulate a vestige's ability to choose its manifestations to evoke an emotional response. At any time during the duration of an illusion spell cast by you, you may choose one creature currently under the effect of the illusion, and use your action to force the chosen creature to make to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If they fail, the creature is frightened or charmed by you (your choice) as long as they remain under the effect of the illusion.

One other thought I had but haven't written out as an ability yet: I'd like to give the Awakened Binder something like the gnome's device, or the transmutation wizard's transmuter's stone: a small item that provides some minor benefit to either the Binder or an ally they chose to bestow it on. In keeping with the vestige theme, I was thinking it could be a small physical manifestation - for example, a magical mark that looks like a brand or tattoo, or perhaps a small physical change that's thematically appropriate for the effect chosen (related body part, etc). The effect might be something like darkvision, or advantage on a certain save. At higher levels, I'd consider allowing them to store a spell in it that the bearer could cast, like a ring of spell storing (or the psionic tattoos in 3.5). Alternatively, they could chose to expend the Mark to achieve an effect, just like the transmutation stone's 14th-level use (but with different options).

Thoughts?

[The_Doctor]

@Zahn: Google is your friend. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Son)


Any comments on the vestige itself?

I'll add the table to all of my vestiges later today, I think.

[Spiriah]

So yeah, final(ish?) version of Focalor here:
FOCALOR
Prince of Tears
3rd Level Vestige

Special Requirement: Focalor’s seal must be drawn with a liquid medium.

Manifestation: Focalor manifests slowly, appearing first as a single tear that drops from thin air to strike the ground. Next his weeping eyes appear, and gradually his whole body becomes visible. Focalor looks like a handsome human male whose face is twisted by grief. He wears no clothes, but he cloaks his body in the griffon wings that grow from his back and shudder with each of his wracking sobs.

Sign: While you serve as host to Focalor, your eyes constantly weep, regardless of your mood or thoughts.

Influence: While influenced by Focalor, you feel some of his immense sadness and act morose, rarely smiling or finding cause to laugh. Whenever you kill a creature, Focalor demands that as soon as you have a peaceful moment, you take a round to say a few words of sorrow and regret for the life cut short by your actions.

Abilities:

Focalor's Breath: As a standard action, you can exhale towards a living target within 30 feet. The target must make a Constitution save or be blinded as if by the Blindness/Deafness spell. You can use this ability once per short rest.

Water Breathing: For as long as you are bound to Focalor, you can breathe as though you werere under the effects of the Water Breathing spell.

Electrifying Touch: You gain the Shocking Grasp cantrip.

Inestimable Grief: While you display Focalor's sign, the sorrow that paints your visage makes you difficult to read. Insight or Perception checks attempting to discern your emotions or intentions have disadvantage, and you have advantage on saves against Detect Thoughts or similar effects that would read your mind.

Lightning Strike: Once per round as a standard action, you can call down a bolt of lightning that strikes any target you designate, as long as it is within 60 feet. This range increases to 120 feet at 11th level. The lightning bolt deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per vestige level of the highest-level vestige you are able to bind. A successful Dexterity save halves this damage. This ability functions outdoors, indoors, underground, and even underwater.

Aura of Sadness:You emit an aura of depression and sadness that can overtake even the most strong-willed of creatures. When a creature within 5 feet of you hits with an attack roll, you can use your reaction to sap its fighting spirit with feelings of guilt and misery. Until the end of your next turn, you can choose to impose disadvantage on one attack roll, ability check, or saving throw it makes. A creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or less isn’t affected.



Influence:



Personality Trait:
You feel morose, and rarely smile or find cause to laugh.


Personality Trait:
Whenever you kill a creature, as soon as you have a peaceful moment, you take a round to says a few words of sorrow and regret for the life you cut short.





And here's a draft of Ronove. Some rough ideas, at least.
RONOVE
The Iron Maiden
1st Level Vestige

Special Requirement: Ronove’s seal must be drawn in the soil under the sky.

Legend: In life, Ronove was a charismatic guru who taught that enlightenment comes from denial—first of the needs of the flesh, then of the perceived limits of reality, and lastly of the rules of reality. Her frequent demonstrations of power served to illustrate the validity of her ideas to others. She leapt from cliffs without harm, lifted boulders with her thoughts, and lived for months without eating or drinking. Although Ronove gathered many followers, not one of her disciples could manage her great feats. Some began to question her methods.

To prove the veracity of her teachings, Ronove entombed herself underground in an iron coffin, telling her students to dig her up only when they received a sign from her. However, years passed without a sign, and her followers dwindled, leaving only one. Disillusioned, he dug up the coffin. Finding it empty, he told the other former disciples of what had happened, but none believed him, and Ronove and her nameless follower faded into obscurity.

Sign: Your face settles into a frown if you succeeded on your binding check, or a smile if you failed.

Manifestation: The ground quakes, and a rusted iron sarcophagus erupts from the earth within her seal, shedding dirt and flakes of rust as it grates upward. The metal visage of a human woman is discernible on the lid. The metal bindings holding the lid closed burst in clouds of corroded metal, and the sarcophagus creaks open, releasing a tumble of human bones and noisome black liquid. Ronove does not speak to her summoner, but the visage on the lid smiles or frowns during the pact-making process.

Abilities:

Magic Attacks: Your melee attacks count as magic for purposes of overcoming resistance or immunity to weapon damage.

Far Hand: You can manipulate distant objects using invisible force. As an action, you can summon an invisible force, which you can use to move objects as a bonus action on your turn. This ability has a range of 30 feet, which increases to 60 feet at 5th level, and works similarly to Telekinesis, but with the following differences:
You can only move unattended objects, up to a weight of 10 pounds per Binder level you possess.
You cannot try to move creatures, but can instead use an action to push them with the force. This deals 1d6 Bludgeoning damage, and the target must make a Strength save against your Binder save DC. If it fails, you push it 10 feet in a direction you choose and knock it prone. Afterwards, the force dissipates, and you must use an action to summon it again.

Feather Fall: You automatically fall as though under the influence of a Feather Fall spell. You can suppress or activate this ability as a standard action.

Ronove’s Fists: You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes, and you can deal Martial Arts damage with your unarmed strikes as though you were a Monk of your Binder level.

Sprint: You gain +10ft to your base speed.

Ronove’s Endurance: While bound to Ronove, you only need to eat, drink, and sleep one-third as often as normal, and you treat your level of exhaustion as being one less than it actually is, and thus suffer no penalties until you have received two levels of exhaustion.



Influence:



Personality Trait:
Despite what anyone says, you feel the need to prove your worth.


Personality Trait:
You cannot eat or drink (including potions) while you remain bound to Ronove.

[Prince Zahn]

I'm in a bit of a twitter mood, please forgive the silliness but I think it sped up my posting :smalltongue:
@Awakened Binder. perhaps a streamlined, simplified version of Dahlver-Nar's teeth, which would offer some kind of utilitarian purpose? Perhaps mimic a swappable utilitarian ability from any vestige of up to, say, 3rd/4th/5th level? Food for thought. :smallsmile:

@Bigger. As a rule of thumb, I'd rather get answers and opinions from people so I don't have to read about it from Wikipedia. I don't respond to "Google it". *shrugs*
...The car is a little weird an idea, at least for a conventional D&D game, and Naberius already offers vicious mockery, I doubt the two would interact well together. Those details notwithstanding, I can see him as a 1st of 2nd level vestige, but he needs something that would improve at higher levels.

@Focalor. dealing 9d6 per round seems a bit much for an at-will ability, even at really high levels:smallconfused:. Perhaps Lightning bolt won't be an unreasonable spell to offer instead. Adding "You know the lightning bolt spell..." would give an awakened binder a sparkling new toy to use, as well. See also above on having an ability that improves at key levels. On a personal level, I want early level vestiges to be relevant options for as long as possible.:smallsmile: (#Lightning Strike)
@Ronove. she's looking quite nice for an initial draft :3 hats off.
My thoughts:

To go with the monk theme, I'd only make the binder's unarmed strike count as magical. Lest this would quickly be exploitable by greatsword wielding binder/fighter builds or somefin. :smalltongue:
Feather fall is a reaction to use, I'm not really sure about making it constant, though since it is only on yourself I don't think it could do much harm.
Far hand is essentially a slightly more offensive Mage hand, I take it? I think that's fine for now, and would be easier to phrase as "Mage hand+". Perhaps even upgrade it to a full-fledged telekinesis at a level you think is just.

Carry on. Any feedback/thoughts about #Leraje, who somehow swapped places with Dahlver-Nar?:smalltongue:

[anaximander19]

Oh, I like the idea of emulating the Teeth... although that's potentially a lot of bookkeeping. How's this:


Occult Mark
At 13th level, you learn the means by which a vestige is able to bestow abilities on its host. In a ritual lasting one hour, you may place a magical mark resembling a brand or tattoo on a willing creature that you can touch. Once you perform the ritual, you cannot perform it again until you have completed a long rest, and only one creature may bear your Mark at any one time. The Mark lasts until dismissed or expended, after which it fades away; it cannot be erased or dispelled by dispel magic. The Mark disappears if you die, or if the creature bearing it dies.

As long as the creature bearing your Mark is on the same plane as you and within one mile, you know which direction the creature is in. If the creature dies, you are instantly aware of it.

When you perform the ritual, you select one ability granted by any vestige you have previously bound for a continuous period of at least 24 hours. The ability chosen must allow you to use it more than once without requiring a long rest. The creature who bears your Mark may use their action to activate this ability, after which it functions exactly as if they had the relevant vestige bound and were using the ability normally. Any spells granted are cast at your caster level, regardless of whether the creature bearing the Mark has spellcasting abilities of its own. When the ability contained within it is activated, the Mark's energy is expended, and the Mark fades.


So basically, you can pick anything a vestige lets you do (provided it's not their Big Thing) and either gain it or bestow it on an ally, as a daily ability. The restriction on not getting once-per-long-rest abilities is so that you can't use it to circumvent the balancing - imagine taking the strongest ability of a 9th-level vestige, and then binding two more... the possibility of getting two 9th-level-spell-equivalent powers is already a bit crazy, balanced only by the lack of much else spellcasting (even with Awakened, you're missing out on levels 5-8) but three 9th-level-spell-equivalent powers is too much. At any rate, this lets you choose anything from 1st-level stuff like darkvision or advantage on a particular skill, right up to a single casting of a 4th-level spell, or something of roughly equivalent power. I might look at rewording it a little to account for the different styles and durations - for example, I'm not sure how this interacts with things worded as "you know [spell]". It should be a single casting, I think, but I'm not sure how to handle that.

I'm also toying with the idea of the Mark granting you a small passive benefit (darkvision, one type of resistance, advantage on one save, something like that) but I might save that for later by having the 17th-level ability boost the Mark's power - adding the passive buff, maybe letting them use the ability contained it it two or three times, or maybe let them have two active at once.

[Spiriah]

@Focalor. dealing 9d6 per round seems a bit much for an at-will ability, even at really high levels:smallconfused:. Perhaps Lightning bolt won't be an unreasonable spell to offer instead. Adding "You know the lightning bolt spell..." would give an awakened binder a sparkling new toy to use, as well. See also above on having an ability that improves at key levels. On a personal level, I want early level vestiges to be relevant options for as long as possible.:smallsmile: (#Lightning Strike)

True. I do really want Focalor to keep the 1/round lightning strike like in 3.5. Maybe it scales up a d6 per every 2-3 vestige levels above 3rd? Would leave it at 6d6 or 5d6, respectively. The latter averages out to half a point less damage than Sacred Flame (Which also is an at-will power requiring a Dex save, but doesn't require you to bind a specific vestige. Granted, it's a dex save for none rather than half...), while the former averages to 3 points more. Alternatively, have it scale at the same levels cantrips scale at?

Lightning Bolt could be cool, but Focalor already has a short rest ability. Maybe have Awakened binder gain specific spells based on vestiges bound?



@Ronove. she's looking quite nice for an initial draft :3 hats off.
My thoughts:

To go with the monk theme, I'd only make the binder's unarmed strike count as magical. Lest this would quickly be exploitable by greatsword wielding binder/fighter builds or somefin. :smalltongue:
Feather fall is a reaction to use, I'm not really sure about making it constant, though since it is only on yourself I don't think it could do much harm.
Far hand is essentially a slightly more offensive Mage hand, I take it? I think that's fine for now, and would be easier to phrase as "Mage hand+". Perhaps even upgrade it to a full-fledged telekinesis at a level you think is just.

Carry on. Any feedback/thoughts about #Leraje, who somehow swapped places with Dahlver-Nar?:smalltongue:

Good idea. The 3.5 one doesn't specify unarmed (and makes them Cold Iron as well) but this would make sense.
Reaction sounds fine. Can't think of any cases where reaction versus constant feather fall would really matter besides either getting knocked off a cliff mid-combat after taking an AoO, or getting tossed off a ledge while asleep (In which case your vestiges are probably unbound anyway, and you could've been killed a multitude of other ways).
I thought about using Mage Hand, especially given the "Hand" in the name, but it doesn't create a spectral hand to lift things, it just lifts them TK style. Maybe do the same invisible hand thing the Trickster has? :smallconfused:

Leraje looks pretty good! I like Precise Shot especially. Leraje's Arrow strikes me as a little underpowered, though. A slightly lower-damage extra attack against a different target, recharging on a long rest? The 13th level upgrade gets stronger, but I think that changing the cooldown to short rests could work. Dunno if you'd keep the number of uses the same, but it seems fine, especially at that high a level.

[Prince Zahn]

To Clarify, saying "you know the X Spell" only really matters if A:the class offers built-in spellcasting, and B: the character has the lowest level spell slot required to cast the aforementioned spell. Both of which the Awakened Binder is capable of doing (at least up to 4th-level spells. Meaning by design we should avoid writing "You know this 5th+level spell" on our vestige entries.:smalltongue: This only gives the awakened Binder the option to spend a precious spell slot to use a spell offered by a vestige.

@Mark: pretty similar to what I was thinking with the teeth, only less gruesome :smalltongue:whether teeth or mark, it only needs to replicate a vestige power, not necessarily augment it:smallwink:
Try this sentence instead of the caster level part, since that term doesn't exist in this edition :X

The creature bearing your mark uses your binder level, and it's own ability modifiers to determine the effects of any vestige feature it possesses through your mark.
To avoid abuse, consider putting a hardcap on the level vestige you can use this way.

[Prince Zahn]

@Focalor: here's an idea: how about the Call Lightning spell from the Druid list?

[anaximander19]

@Mark: pretty similar to what I was thinking with the teeth, only less gruesome :smalltongue:whether teeth or mark, it only needs to replicate a vestige power, not necessarily augment it:smallwink:
Try this sentence instead of the caster level part, since that term doesn't exist in this edition :X

The creature bearing your mark uses your binder level, and it's own ability modifiers to determine the effects of any vestige feature it possesses through your mark.
To avoid abuse, consider putting a hardcap on the level vestige you can use this way.

Ah, I forgot that caster level is a thing of the past... What I was aiming for was to resolve the question of what spell slot level is used for spells that scale. So, if the Mark is allowing the bearer to cast a spell that has the "at higher levels" bit, the idea was that they cast them at whatever level the Binder would - in other words, you can't give a full-caster one of your spells and have them cast it at a higher level than you could yourself; they cast it at your power level. I also don't want to say that they can cast it at any level you could, because then you can place the Mark on yourself and get an extra spell slot at your highest level, which interferes with the balancing. So, perhaps it should say something like

Any spells granted are cast at their lowest levelwhich is a lot clearer. It also opens the possibility of saying at 17th level that the Mark now allows them to cast spells using a slot one level higher, or something.

I'm still not sure how to handle "You know [spell]" abilities though... do we say that the Mark just lets the target creature learn that spell? What if they pick a cantrip? Does the target creature get to cast the cantrip all day, or just once? It does say if functions exactly as it would if they'd bound the vestige, which implies that they get it all day, but I'm not sure that's a great idea.

As for the vestiges:


Leraje is looking good; good flavour, and some nice abilities. Leraje's Arrow might need the curve adjusting; it starts a little weak and scales to become quite strong, but otherwise I like it.
Focalor is very cool, but I second the idea that Lightning Strike might be a little strong.
Ronove is a really nice start - I'd make the following adjustments: First, as already stated, the magical weapon should only apply to natural weapons, to avoid combos with things like greatswords. Second, Far Hand might benefit from being phrased as a variant on mage hand, telekinesis, or Bigby's Hand. Third, the trait of not being able to eat of drink is really a flaw, I think, and giving them drawbacks whenever they eat or drink might be a slightly harsh one for a 1st-level.

[Prince Zahn]

Ah, I forgot that caster level is a thing of the past... What I was aiming for was to resolve the question of what spell slot level is used for spells that scale. So, if the Mark is allowing the bearer to cast a spell that has the "at higher levels" bit, the idea was that they cast them at whatever level the Binder would - in other words, you can't give a full-caster one of your spells and have them cast it at a higher level than you could yourself; they cast it at your power level. I'm not sure if that's really a big issue. After all, WotC Clarified that a spells cast without a spell slot function at minimum level anyway (as do rituals), so a full caster is paying a higher level spell slot to cast it in a way that stays relevant to the game level from a full caster, and what's the problem with that, anyway?
I also want to remind you that, to make matters harder, most casters need to prepare the spell as well as know it, which takes an hour at least. The only detail that needs a workaround is the wizard and Pact of the Tome Warlock, who should not be able to inscribe the new spell into their books.

I also don't want to say that they can cast it at any level you could, because then you can place the Mark on yourself and get an extra spell slot at your highestLowest level, which interferes with the balancing... FTFY. Aside from doubling the uses of the spell per rest, I don't see the awakened Binder receiving any substantial benefit from using this ability on binding, since he Knows the spell anyway, he can use it as the vestige describes with the vestige's benefits and limitations, or as the spell describes by spending a spell slot even without the mark. That's about it. Granted, it is a little complex, but that's normal for Vancian spellcasting.
If you really want to prevent the loophole anyway, you can rule that the binder can not imbue the mark upon himself, C'est Tout.:smalltongue:


I'm still not sure how to handle "You know [spell]" abilities though... do we say that the Mark just lets the target creature learn that spell?:vaarsuvius: And what would the problem with that be?
See above, besides, in this design, the awakened binder won't be have mention know the ____ spell for spells higher than 4th level anyway, and can't do much with knowing it if it's not a ritual (?) or if she's not an awakened binder anyway, and she likewise he won't be passing any spellcasting of 5th level or higher to anyone else for the sand reason, unless it's a binder ability or something.

What if they pick a cantrip? *snip*:vaarsuvius: Again, what would the problem with that be?
There are no game breaking cantrips AFAIK, nor do you have to be a spellcaster to know and use cantrips. You can use them at-will and there is no fault to that, as that is the point of cantrips in 5e.:smallsmile:

With all the talk about the binder it's easy to forget we're doing this for D&D 5e games, not 3.5 :smalltongue: some things are a little more lenient.


As for the vestiges:


Leraje is looking good; good flavour, and some nice abilities. Leraje's Arrow might need the curve adjusting; it starts a little weak and scales to become quite strong, but otherwise I like it.
Focalor is very cool, but I second the idea that Lightning Strike might be a little strong.
Ronove is a really nice start - I'd make the following adjustments: First, as already stated, the magical weapon should only apply to natural weapons, to avoid combos with things like greatswords. Second, Far Hand might benefit from being phrased as a variant on mage hand, telekinesis, or Bigby's Hand. Third, the trait of not being able to eat of drink is really a flaw, I think, and giving them drawbacks whenever they eat or drink might be a slightly harsh one for a 1st-level.

thank you guys for the feedback on Leraje, :smallbiggrin: the way I intended for Leraje's Arrow to work at high levels is nearly identical to Volley, except rest powered, and dealing a little force damage. That being said, she gives the Volley attack 2 levels after the ranger gets them. Ideally, Leraje's Arrow is also extra damage against a large or larger creature.
What do you guys purpose I could do with Leraje's Arrow to make sure it connects properly at lower levels? More damage? More arrows? Less limits? Other? All ears!
inb4: what do you guys think of call Lightning for Lightning strike? It generally would be X uses between short rests ability, though each casting could last you the whole combat. :3
most likely mage hand, as we are still talking about a 1st level vestige, whether you nerf the spell or not :smalltongue::smallwink:



WOW THAT WAS A MOUTHFUL!:smalleek:

[The_Doctor]

@Zahn: The reason I posted the Wikipedia link was that I haven't read the whole book yet. That said, what I HAVE read is very interesting, and it conveys a powerful feeling.

Editing Bigger.... Removed Summon Car, fixed wording on Bigger's Bluff, edited Chauffeur, and changed Vicious Mockery to Shocking Revelation and added Mark of a Murderer. And upped the level to 3.

[Scarce]

Quick (and probably quite rough) attempt at Acererak:


Acererak
The Devourer
7th level Vestige

Vestige of Unlife. Acererak grants you a semblance of lichood while he is bound. You have resistance to cold, lightning, and poison damage.
Additionally, the undead see you as a friend while bound to Acererak. Before making an attack against you, an undead creature must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature loses the attack. If a creature's saving throw is successful, the creature is immune to this feature for the next 24 hours.

Undead Healing. Whenever you take necrotic damage from a spell of 1st level or higher, you instead regain a number of hit points equal to the necrotic damage dealt, up to your hit point maximum.

False Life
You can cast the spell false life as if using a spell slot of 4th level. After casting this spell, you must take a short or long rest before casting it again.

Finger of Death. You can cast the spell finger of death without expending a spell slot



I'll add the flavor text in once I'm convinced I have the mechanics right. Finger of Death might be raising the level that this vestige needs to be at, but I'm unsure of where it needs to be otherwise. Lemme know what you think.

EDIT: Added a couple new features.

[Prince Zahn]

:eek:
@Doctor: You didn't have to remove key features completely just because I said it's a little odd. Sure, automobiles in D&D feel pretty wacky but some people like that! :smalltongue: The "Misc. Vestiges" are for anything and everything beyond the standard Binder - unconventional and Genre-changing stuff can certainly find it's place there!

Also, you guys should know I keep the "Vestiges list (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19394949&postcount=86)" Post up to date. Acererak will be added shortly. :smallsmile: speaking of which:

@Acererak. A very good start :) the only thing that stands out funny IMO is Paralyzing Touch, which I'm not sure how powerful it is by 13th+ level. Though don't take it as WoG since I have neither my books nor much reference on me right now to support it.

Overall I think it's pretty good, but I think you should be able to sense a more distinct difference in power when you wield a 7th/8th level Vestige, (not to mention 9th level, that's a whole other league :smalltongue:) :3 feel free to give Acererak another power or something ^_^

[The_Doctor]

I removed Summon Car because while Bigger was a chauffeur, that wasn't the main point of the book; the point is he killed someone.

[Scarce]

@Acererak: I added a couple of things, specifically the Disrput Life ability from the Monster Manual's Lich, and one ability to protect yourself from undead. Let me know if this brings it up to 7th level vestige status, or bumps it into 8th.

Also, it might be prudent to embed a vestige save DC formula into the class itself, rather than specifying it in each vestige description. For example:

Saving Throws. Some vestiges have features that require your target to make a saving throw to resist some effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Vestige save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier.

[anaximander19]

Agreed - my plan was to give the Binder a save DC just like a spellcaster (8 + CHA + proficiency) and then just have vestiges say "using your Binder save DC" in the same way that spells say "using your spell save DC". Apologies if that wasn't clear from the start.

[Prince Zahn]

@Acererak. This is definitely an improvement.:smallsmile: I think it wouldn't be unfair of the binder to use the Paralyzing touch more often, though. It deals roughly cantrip damage, and casters to worse things as an area effect.
More importantly, a binder needs to be able to have something to do when he runs out of rest-powered abilities. I really don't have a sense of scale on how powerful a 13-14th level should be, though. Perhaps instead of increasing the touch uses, I imagine disrupt life could be fill that need, maybe if you reduced the damage to 4d8 or 5d6 or something, and don't add an effect besides AoE damage, it could serve an neat at-will? I could be wrong though.As long as you can't use it to heal yourself with undead healing.
As a matter of fact, unless that's an intentional strategy to use multiple Acererak-bound binders able to heal each other, I'd make a rule to prevent it.

@Saving Throws. I completely agree with streamlining save DCs into the class description, rather than individual vestiges. I don't write vestige save DCs anyway, though.

@Doctor. Let's avoid linear scaling wherever applicable, shall we? the best solution we have currently for improving effects is to just add "At __th Level, X now happens." or "At __th level, X now deals #d# damage." Or add another use per rest at __th level and __th level... Et cetera. Sometimes it's easy to forget this isn't for 3.5 anymore :smalltongue: #Shocking revelation.

You and Scarce seem to have the same issue I had with Naberius - that realistically, you're stuck with the vestige for at least half an adventuring day. Once you use your rest-powered features, you only have passive stuff left and you're out of luck. :\ what I think you could do, Doctor, is nerf Lung Smoke to one round but use it as an at-will feature?

[The_Doctor]

Doctor, is nerf Lung Smoke to one round but use it as an at-will feature?

Nice grammar. Anyway, seems like a good idea. Will fix tomorrow (eating dinner now).

[Scarce]

@Acererak
You and Scarce seem to have the same issue I had with Naberius - that realistically, you're stuck with the vestige for at least half an adventuring day.

@Acererak: I've changed Paralyzing Touch again to be at at-will feature. That should give the vestige some more usability for most of the adventuring day. I felt like it, rather than disrupt life, was the more fundamental Lich ability, so it should be the more often used feature. Also, I made it so that you can't heal yourself with Undead Healing, though I don't know how to keep an ally with chill touch from healing you all day..

[Prince Zahn]

Updated #Leraje (www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19450897&postcount=100). You now deal a little more damage, and make separate attack rolls, so as to model the ranger's Volley a little better, and since it's more exciting this way IMO. :3

@Scarce. I'll examine it later. By my interpretation, chill touch in particular should not be an issue, as the spell denies regaining hit points until the caster's next turn. Though I don't think that healing 4d8 healing in a round will save you in combat at that level, even if it works (which I still don't think it should.)

Nice grammar. Anyway, seems like a good idea. Will fix tomorrow (eating dinner now).



What I think you could do, Doctor, is nerf Lung Smoke to one round but use it as an at-will feature?

I'm sorry, I think you misread because I see nothing wrong with my grammar. :smallsmile:

[Spiriah]

@Focalor: here's an idea: how about the Call Lightning spell from the Druid list?
Call Lightning does happen to be quite similar to Focalor's Lightning. Were you planning on incorporating it into the ability, or was it for the "Awakened binders add spells by vestige" idea?

(Sorry for the slow reply, it's been a busy week for me.)

[The_Doctor]

is nerf Lung Smoke


I should sig-quote that. Anyway, I'll fix later today (really busy, it turns out.)

[Prince Zahn]

I should sig-quote that. Anyway, I'll fix later today (really busy, it turns out.)
I'd be honored if you quote me, no problems here! ^_^

[The_Doctor]

Sig-quoting complete! I also re-jargonified Bigger's Lung Smoke.

[Scarce]

I'd like to work on the King in Yellow as a vestige, but I'm not sure which mechanical niche it should sit in. Illusionist? AoE specialist? Are we in need of higher level or lower level vestiges? I'd love some input before I get started on the mechanics.

[ImSAMazing]

To me, this class seems OP because the Vestige points...

[Prince Zahn]

I'd like to work on the King in Yellow as a vestige, but I'm not sure which mechanical niche it should sit in. Illusionist? AoE specialist? Are we in need of higher level or lower level vestiges? I'd love some input before I get started on the mechanics.Sans Aym who is not yet started, I think that unless Anaxi thinks otherwise, we have enough first level vestiges.
Do you want to try making a 4th-6th level vestige? A cool thing to do is find a mechanic or motif or whatever that impresses you, and try to replicate it in a way that's balanced for the binder who just gets access to them.


To me, this class seems OP because the Vestige points...would you kindly elaborate?

[The_Doctor]

The King in Yellow you say? It happens a 3.5 version was put up on page one of the infamous "Let's Make Some New Vestiges" thread over on the wizard forums here. (http://community.wizards.com/comment/13227476#comment-13227476)

Also, I have read quite a lot of work by Chambers and almost all of Lovecraft's work, so if anyone wants to create another Cthulhu-ish vestige I'm all ears.

(If you don't like the wizards version: here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3753328&postcount=6))

[Prince Zahn]

@Emotive illusion. (how could I possibly forget to discuss it?) it looks good, I think an intelligence saving throw would fit better than a an intelligence check. Normally, one rolls a saving throw to prevent something bad from happening, which is why it would make more sense. Though IIRC Intelligence is a rare (and tough) save. Which is something to consider that relatively few characters will be proficient with it. If it makes sense to you to challenge INT saves, I have no objections though.

@Lightning Strike. I think the DMG has guidelines on how much damage an at will ability should be able to do. It's worth a look if it'll speed things up with Focalor.:smallsmile:

@Acererak. After grabbing a glimpse of the DMG on creating a new spell/spell damage, you could probably get away with dealing 11/12d6 or 7d10 or something with a similar average, as it should be worth belonging to a 7th level vestige, moreso for rest based features.
Other than that, I think the vestige is in pretty good shape :smallbiggrin: #Disrupt Life

@Bigger. I think this is ready for playtesting if desired, unless The_Doctor has any last tweaks he'd like to make.

EDIT: Bigger is marked complete ["(COMP)"] on the vestige list(see my sig). But just to remind people, that only means that he's ready to playtest, changes can (and likely need) still be made if playtesting unveils any issues. Anyone who finishes a Vestige can inform me and I'll patch a "complete" mark on it. It'll just help keep things organized and we'll know what vestiges we started working on but haven't finished, and which vestiges we have, and don't need to make new drafts of. And besides, since I already take the liberty of keeping the list up to date, it's really not a hassle so there's no reason not to do it. :smallsmile:

[The_Doctor]

I think it's fine as it is now.

[The_Doctor]

A bump post and a new vestige! I'm including my comments in strikethrough.


EMERALD LAMA
The Corrupter
Level: 9
DC: 18
Sign: The Lama is one of the vestiges with the most signs. Firstly, a chunk of emerald the size of your fist is embedded in your head; this in no way impairs any function as if it was weightless. It cannot be removed by any means. Secondly, your legs are replaced by tentacles that trail away and dissapear, floating 3 feet off the ground at all times. Finally, you are always wearing a shimmering green cloak that obscures the other two signs.
PROFICIENCIES
You have proficiency in Intelligence saving throws.I wanted to give him a thematic saving throw proficiency without breaking the game, so I chose INT.
Tantric Corrupter of Enlightment: Once per long rest, you can force a target within 30 feet to succeed on an Intelligence saving throw. If they fail, they are paralyzed for 3 rounds and poisoned for the same duration.
The Emerald Mandala: If you spend at least 1 minute conversing with someone, they must make an Intelligence saving throw or slip partially into insanity. They must make additional saving throws each additional minute. If they fail three times, they are obsessed with you and your deeds. This effect lasts until you unbind this vestige or take a long rest. After the effects wear off, they shrug it off as just a phase they were going through.The emerald lama is an avatar of Hastur; he has to have some effect relating to speech.
Shimmering Robes: Your robes are actually a gateway into other worlds. Once per long rest you may use the spell gate.Thematically appropriate.
The Third Eye: You can project a hazy green mist from your chunk of emerald that causes those in it to view the court of Azathoth and other such horrors. Since it isn't perfect, it isn't full insanity, but it is close. Once per short rest, you can create a cube of mist 15 feet by 15 feet by 15 feet big. Those who enter the cube or start their turn there, except you, take 4d10 psychic damage.
Embrace of the Lama: Once per long rest, your arms transmute into tentacles and slam into a target within melee range. You make a melee attack roll using Charisma as your attack attribute, and are treated as having proficiency. On a hit, you grab them with the tentacles, and deal them 3d6 necrotic damage per round. You slowly drain away their memories and soul, reducing their Wisdom by 1 point per round. Afterwards, the drained stats regenerate at a rate of 1 per week. You have permanent access to the memories of those you drain, even after the vestige unbinds.

A bit wordy, I know.

[Prince Zahn]

Still waiting for feedback on the updated Leraje's Arrow.

Here's my alternate take on Amon, including two completely new abilities and a different damage feature :smallbiggrin: any feedback would be much appreciated. AMON
The Void Before The Altar
1st Level vestige:
DC: 15
Seal:
Sign: You grow a set of curling ram-like horns on your head.
Manifestation:


PROFICIENCIES
Languages: Choose either Celestial or Infernal

DARKVISION
You can see dim light within 60 feet as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You cannot discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

ANCIENT RIVALRY
You have advantage on all ability check and attack roll contests made against another binder. When you reach 13th level, the benefits of this ability also apply to contest rolls made against Aberrations, Celestials, Fey, Fiends or undead, as well as mortals possessed by these creatures or have ever formed a pact with them.

BREATHE FIRE
When you breathe, flames churn within your lungs, eager to be let loose upon your foes. You can use your action to exhale a 15-foot cone of fire from your mouth, any creature caught within the fire takes 1d6 fire damage or takes half as much if it makes a successful Dexterity saving throw. alternatively, you can hold your breath for up to 2 rounds, each round you hold your fiery breath increases the damage of this feature (as noted on the table below)(in which case you exhale the fiery breathe on your 3rd round as an action) holding your breathe in this way requires concentration. Your breath also ignites any flammable objects that are not being worn or carried. Trying to hold your fiery breath for longer than 2 rounds results in a smokey cough fit, ending your effect and dealing you 1d8 points of fire damage. Fire resistance and immunity does not affect fire damage you inflict upon yourself by holding your breath longer than 2 rounds.
Starting at 6th level, and again at 14th level, the damage you inflict with Breathe Fire (as well as the damage increase from holding your breathe) increases as (as indicated on the table below:
DAMAGE - BREATHE FIRE


Level\Time holding breath
1 action
1 round
2 rounds


1st
1d6
1d6+1d8
1d6+3d8


6th
2d6
2d6+2d8
2d6+5d8


14th
4d6
4d6+3d8
4d6+9d8




BEHIND THE SCENES: BREATHE FIRE
Breathe fire was built from a simple damage mechanic, I originally wanted to just give Amon fire bolt but I simply couldn't do it. Likewise, A dragonborn's breath feels very lackluster to me, as it scales poorly for a rest-powered ability. What evolved from it was something different - the concept of holding your breath at the prospect of better damage. All I had for reference are the dungeon master table for spell damage and the notion that holding your breath needs to be worth paying up a round or two of combat. It should also be harder to abuse, because if you want to optimize damage at the first round of combat, you will have to start charging your "solarbeam" precisely 2 rounds prior to combat (which is highly unlikely to time just right unless your GM throws you a bone) you can not simply "hold the charge" for as long as you like and get maximum damage, especially not with the coughing fit barring more than 2 rounds of holding it in.
Notice that this is an at-will ability, this is because by my logic a battle in 5e is usually over within 3 rounds anyway, so holding your breathing is impractical more than once per encounter anyway.


RAM ATTACK
The horns granted to you by Amon are strong and sturdy. You can use the horns on your head as a melee weapon which you are proficient with. Your horns deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage, plus your strength modifier. You have advantage on your attack roll if you move at least 10 feet in a straight line right before attacking the target. You must bear Amon's sign to use this feature.

CALL OF GRIM VALOR
As an action, Amon let's you sound the horns on your head, making for an eerie battle cry. Any enemies within 30 must succeed on a wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1d4 rounds, and your melee weapon attacks against frightened creatures deal an additional 1d6 damage for the duration. Once you have used this feature, you can not use it again until you have completed a short or long rest. You must bear Amon's sign to use this feature.

RETRIBUTION
Amon is a spiteful vestige who harms those who attack you, Whenever you are hit and dealt damage from an attack by a creature you can see that is within your reach, you can use your reaction to force the attacking creature to take 1d4+1 damage per 2 dice of damage you received from that attack (maximum 10d4+10). The type of damage you deal is the same type as the damage that triggered this feature (if there are multiple types of damage, you decide which of those types to use).

PACT INFORMATION:
Ancient texts suggest that Amon is what little remains of an ancient deity who died a millennia ago. In his prime, Amon had been worshipped by thousands, but but he gradually lost his power, as his followers converted to more responsive deities. Through sheer willpower alone he escaped eternal rest in the astral planes, and his soul found refuge in the outer planes, where the soul of this once mighty god of light and law deformed into a foul and hateful spirit.
Amon hates everyone and everything, and demands for you to spread fear and discord among the people. And beckons you to weaponize chaos and destruction. A binder tempted by his words has disadvantage on charisma checks to bind Amon. On the same token, his Demi-existence in the far realms of existence has made him very gullible, and pacts with Amon that are built on lies are made with advantage.

If you make a poor pact with Amon, he influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Personality Trait
I have a naturally foul temper.


Ideal
Anarchy. I strongly disapprove of the leading faith(s) and/or faction(s), and perhaps even the ruler.

[The_Doctor]

Question: Do we have a vestige of each level? I'm going to see if my DM will allow this class in his campaign so I can multiclass. Might have to come up with some custom vestiges for the campaign setting though.


I like the new Amon. A lot more varied abilities than the original, but all flavorful.

EDIT; Any feedback on my new Vestige?

[Prince Zahn]

Question: Do we have a vestige of each level? I'm going to see if my DM will allow this class in his campaign so I can multiclass. Might have to come up with some custom vestiges for the campaign setting though.INB4: Here is the compiled list of every vestige we ever made in 5e (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19394949&postcount=86),(it's also in my sig!) it's up to date and sorted by vestige level (sans non-canonical vestiges who are alphabetically sorted at the end.)


I Iike the new Amon. A lot more varied abilities than the original, but all flavorful. thanks! :smallsmile: I thought I needed to do something different, because Amon offered only 3 abilities in 3.5 and everyone only ever wanted him for the breath attack:smalltongue:


EDIT; Any feedback on my new Vestige?
I'll certainly look at it again later, but I'm mildly creeped from it, which really says something for a vestige.

[The_Doctor]

It seems we're missing 4th, 6th, and 8th level vestiges.

Also, about the Lama: Mission Accomplished.


Let me try to (hurriedly) create a 4th level vestige.


The King in Yellow
Lord of Carcosa
Level: 4
DC: 15
Sign: The Yellow Sign appears, as if tattooed, on your brow.
PROFICIENCIES
Languages: You are proficient in Abberant while bound to The King in Yellow.
Pallid Mask:Once per short rest as an action, you can don the Pallid Mask, a mask so powerful that all enemies within 30 feet must succeed at a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened for 1d6 rounds.
Touch of Carcosa: You gain a natural attack that you are proficient with that deals 1d10 psychic and necrotic damage, plus an additional number determined by your level. The extra damage is 7 at 7th level, 10 at 10th level, 15 at 15th level, and 20 at 20th level. For each 5 damage done by the attack, you gain 1 temporary hitpoint.
Yellow Sign: As an action, once per short rest you can cause burst of yellow light to come forth from the Yellow Sign on your brow, forcing all enemies within 30 feet to succeed at a Wisdom saving throw or be stunned for 1 round.

[Prince Zahn]

I'm not much of a Lovecraft reader, nor a fan of similar reads, so I may have lost some context. I'd like to request that all non-canon vestiges either have a legend that summarizes (but not spoilers) enough to provide context for an oblivious reader, or least be streamlined to be understandable and useable without loyalty to any setting. It makes it a little harder for me to appraise the last few non-canonical vestiges since it expects me to have read or watched something that I likely haven't. If you want to continue making them, go ahead, but when you make stuff like that, please provide some context instead of making me dig it up and open new tabs.
I haven't read that many books or watched too many movies, I'm a television person...:smallredface: So if you're unsure whether I know about a "shoutout" vestige, assume I haven't and don't make me work to understand why you made it.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation.:smallsmile:

Feedback:

@intelligence saving throw. really useful, though situational, seems legit.
@ Tantric corrupter... sounds okay to me, mixes with some of the other stuff you have here.
@ Emerald Mandala. Should probably say that a creature who succeeds on the saving throw is immune to the effect for 24 hours, or until you form a new post with EL. And have a way to turn this ability off and on. I can not tell how if this ability is balanced or not for it's level, so take my word for it with a grain of salt when it comes to that level of power.
@ The Third Eye. this should probably have a duration, and be dispersible if it really is just. I'm not a good judge for damage either, but I think you can go a little higher here.
@EotL. Should involve grappling, I reckon. Also permanent access to all memories of kind of crazy, especially because you get to keep them forever after your not bound to him anymore. In that respect, I'd rather you dealt more wisdom damage instead.

first thing I noticed is that there are very few abilities to this vestige, and I suggest you and Scarce work together to make this vestige the best it can be.
Having not read the King In Yellow, I won't be much help in coming up with new abilities, unfortunately.
@Pallid mask. How long do you wear the mask? Aside from the status what it this effect's duration?
@ToC. You can make this ability more powerful Also, I don't think a single point of damage can be of two different types in 5e. Consider making some of the damage psychic, and the rest - necrotic.
@yellow sign. this doesn't blend well with Pallid mask IMHO. it might not have to, but consider the usefulness of having some vestige abilities that compliment each other.

[The_Doctor]

Firstly, If you haven't read the King in Yellow, all the information on the King is here: http://kinginyellow.wikia.com/wiki/The_King_In_Yellow

Let me post the contents here if you don't want to look at the link.

"Going by the original stories, The King In Yellow (the play) is linked in some nebulous and horrible fashion with the King in Yellow, an alien god whose "scalloped tatters ... must hide Yhtill forever". The King is in turn linked in some way with "Carcosa, where black stars hang in the heavens; where the shadows of men's thoughts lengthen in the afternoon, when the twin suns sink into the Lake of Hali". The King's nature, motives and modus operandi are unclear; but he occasionally appears on Earth, animating dead bodies or possessing those strange 'humans' already in thrall to him, and claiming (or reclaiming) those who have eluded him. To read the play is to be exposed to the King and to fall under his influence, going mad in the meantime.

The King doesn't strictly appear in the original stories, at least not in any way that allows us a good description. True, he appears to the narrator of The Yellow Sign briefly before he dies, but he is unable to convey quite what he sees."
What play, you may ask?

Direct quotes from the original stories:
"'If I had not caught a glimpse of the opening words in the second act I should never have finished it, but as I stooped to pick it up my eyes became riveted to the open page, and with a cry of terror, or perhaps it was of joy so poignant that I suffered in every nerve, I snatched the thing from the hearth and crept shaking to my bedroom, where I read it and reread it, and wept and laughed and trembled with a horror which at times assails me yet. This is the thing that troubles me, for I cannot forget Carcosa, where black stars hang in the heavens, where the shadows of men's thoughts lengthen in the afternoon, when the the twin suns sink into the Lake of Hali, and my mind will bear forever the memory of the Pallid Mask." – Hildred Castaigne

"No definite principles had been violated in those wicked pages, no doctrine promulgated, no convictions outraged. It could not be judged by any known standard, yet, although it was acknowledged that the supreme note of art had been struck in The King in Yellow, all felt that human nature could not bear the strain nor thrive on words in which the essence of purest poison lurked. The very banality and innocence of the first act only allowed the blow to fall afterwards with more awful effect." – Hildred Castaigne

"I only remember the excitement it created and the denunciations from pulpit and press. I believe the author shot himself after bringing forth this monstrosity, didn't he? ...'truths' which send men frantic and blast their lives. I don't care if the thing is, as they say, the very supreme essence of art. It's a crime to have written it, and I for one shall never open its pages." – Louis Castaigne
Finally, a crash course on Carcosa.

There are black stars hanging overhead.
There are two suns that sink into the lake at night.
The lake is named "Hali."
Some relation to the star Aldebaran, as well as the Hyades star cluster.
There are two moons that sit in FRONT of the towers of Carcosa.

[The_Doctor]

@intelligence saving throw. really useful, though situational, seems legit. thanks.
@ Tantric corrupter... sounds okay to me, mixes with some of the other stuff you have here.Awesome.
@ Emerald Mandala. Should probably say that a creature who succeeds on the saving throw is immune to the effect for 24 hours, or until you form a new post with EL. And have a way to turn this ability off and on. I can not tell how if this ability is balanced or not for it's level, so take my word for it with a grain of salt when it comes to that level of power.Yeah, I'll add in a phrase that you can turn the ability on or off with a bonus action. Originally, the Mandala was written and it applied to anyone who read it.
@ The Third Eye. this should probably have a duration, and be dispersible if it really is just. I'm not a good judge for damage either, but I think you can go a little higher here.Suppose I made it based on concentration?
@EotL. Should involve grappling, I reckon. Also permanent access to all memories of kind of crazy, especially because you get to keep them forever after your not bound to him anymore. In that respect, I'd rather you dealt more wisdom damage instead.Yeah, I don't know what I wast thinking. I'll change that. Also, you forgot to comment on Shimmering Robes.

first thing I noticed is that there are very few abilities to this vestige, and I suggest you and Scarce work together to make this vestige the best it can be. I'll swing him a PM.
Having not read the King In Yellow, I won't be much help in coming up with new abilities, unfortunately. See my previous post.
@Pallid mask. How long do you wear the mask? Aside from the status what it this effect's duration? I had imagined that it was just an instantaneo
@ToC. You can make this ability more powerful Also, I don't think a single point of damage can be of two different types in 5e. Consider making some of the damage psychic, and the rest - necrotic.
@yellow sign. this doesn't blend well with Pallid mask IMHO. it might not have to, but consider the usefulness of having some vestige abilities that compliment each other.


And my comments on your feedback.)

[Scarce]

Let's lock this in at 5th level.


The King in Yellow
Last King of Carcosa

The lost City of Carcosa and the story of its final king are all but vanished from history. Molding away in lost tomes, the story of the King in Yellow is recorded in the Play, an ancient work of the stage, and some claim it is merely a fiction, for its wild description of two moons and black stars are too unearthly to belong on the mortal plane. Yet still, those who find the Play and read it in its entirety are often reduced to madness, and the vestige of the Yellow King plainly exists, substantiating the city's existence.

The King in Yellow, is summoned by reading a passage from the play of his great city, and appears as a gaunt individual shrouded in tattered yellow robes, wearing a pale yellow mask and a broken crown. As greatly as he longs for the warm embrace of reality, he is content to lend his once regal vestments to those who bind him.

Vestments of the King
The Yellow King bestows upon you a number of items he wore in life. You may don or doff any number of those items as a bonus action and gain their effects, but you may not gain the effects of similar magic items worn while you wear an item of the King's. For example, you cannot gain the effects of a Ring of the Ram while you wear the Sallow Ring and you may not gain the effects of an Armor of Invulnerability while you wear the Tattered Robes.

The Pallid Mask
While you are bonded to the Yellow King, a yellow, expressionless mask adheres to your face. You have advantage on saving throws against being frightened while wearing the mask. As an action on your turn, you can remove the mask, revealing your face to 1 creature that can see you within 15 feet. No other creature that views you without your mask notices any change, but the creature targeted sees instead the maddening face of the Yellow King and must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 4d6 psychic damage and is stunned until the end of its next turn. On a successful save, the creature takes half damage and is not stunned.

Tattered Robes
You are cloaked in robes of tattered silk, once worn by the Last King himself. While wearing these robes, you have advantage on saving throws against magic effects and your armor class while unarmored equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier. Additionally, you can cast dimension door without expending a spell slot or spell components. After casting this spell, you cannot do so again until completing a short or long rest.

The Sallow Ring
You can cast friends, minor illusion, and mage hand at will.

Broken Crown
You have resistance on saving throws against being charmed. Additionally, you may cast crown of madness without expending a spell slot or spell components.

Flaw: You fear revealing your face to anyone, and compulsively wear the Pallid Mask.
Bond: Whenever possible, you read the full manuscript of the Play, which the King has memorized, to any audience that will listen. A captive audience takes 1d6 psychic damage for each minute spent listening.

7/28/15: Completed Pallid Mask


I'm totally willing to merge this with the Doctor's version.
Also, I increased the damage on Acererak's Disrupt Life.

[Prince Zahn]

@Acererak. I don't see anything else that needs correcting. He looks pretty good for an ancient lich king :smallsmile: unless you have any final adjustments, I'll mark him complete. :smallbiggrin:

@Emerald. Make sure you're not granting free use of the spell. Also: I also wonder if a vestige could be summoned to the material realm through a gate, which would be insanely broken in every possible regard, but likewise be insanely awesome! :smalltongue:

@Scarce & Doctor. I look forward to what you can come up with together! (^-^)-b

[The_Doctor]

Bump! This is an awesome thread and I don't want to see it die!

[Prince Zahn]

Sorry for my absence, but I assure you that I won't let the 5e binder die if I get a say in the matter :smallsmile:

This is why I've been delaying a post: May I present a vestige I feel didn't get enough credit back in the day - Eurynome! (who's name I can't pronounce!) Let me know how she compares to 7th level character material since I really don't know :smallredface:


EURYNOME
Mother Of The Material
4th Level vestige:
DC: 14
Seal:
Sign: Your skin feels clammy to the touch, and you leave moist prints on any object your body touches, even if clothing would block direct contact with the object. These marks evaporate after about 1 minute.
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES
Weapons: Warhammer, Greatclub

ANIMAL FRIEND
you can fluently understand and communicate with any beast in it's native tongue or body language, and all beasts you meet have a starting attitude of friendly towards you. In addition, you have advantage on all Charisma (Animal Handling) checks.

SHILLELAGH
You gain the Shillelagh Cantrip and can cast it at will.

POISONOUS BLOOD
While you are bound to Eurynome, your blood becomes poisonous to those who drink it. Any creature who ingests your blood, or makes a successful bite attack against you or swallows you whole takes 2d10 poison damage and is poisoned for 1 hour. A successful constitution saving throw halves the damage and negates the poisoned condition. Each time a creature ingests you or your blood, or makes a bite attack against you poisons the creature anew, forcing on the creature another constitution saving throw, If the creature swallowed you whole, it must make a new constitution saving throw for each round you are within it.
Your blood loses it's potency 1 minute after leaving your body if it is not ingested.
Starting At 14th Level, creatures who ingest your blood, make a successful bite attack against you or swallow you whole take to another 3d10 poison damage (5d10).

WATER FROLIC
You can walk on any body of liquid as if it were firm ground, when you do so, you can choose to make any cloud you can see in the sky to drizzle lightly. You can suppress the rain as an action.

RAIN DANCE
You know the spell Sleet Storm (provided you can cast a spell of 3rd level or higher), and can cast it up to twice without expending a spell slot. You recover any expended uses of this feature upon completing a short or long rest. In addition, You do not need to roll concentration for being caught heavy rain, sleet, snow or hail. Starting at 16 Level, you may expend both uses of Sleet Storm to cast Control Weather instead without expending a spell slot.

SERVANTS OF THE SKY AND SEA
You may cast Conjure Minor Elementals once without expending a spell slot. Except that you may only use it to summon elementals composed from air and/or water. Once you have cast the spell in this fashion, you may not do so again until You complete a short or long rest.
Starting at 14th Level, you may cast Conjure Minor Elementals an additional time between short or long rests, and can also cast Conjure Elementals once without expending a spell slot, which you may only use to summon air or water elementals. you regain any expended uses of these spells upon completing a short or long rest.



PACT INFORMATION:
[I]Stories say that before counted time,* before even the first animals and trees of the world were born, the gods and titans warred for dominion of the incomplete material realm. Tired of the unending struggle, Eurynome fled to the prized yet chaotic realm that will later be our world, and separated the sky from the sea so she may dance upon the waves. And as she dancer, the water splashed around her formed into the first animals of the water and the skies.
Incensed by her impertinence in meddling with the world as yet unformed, the gods struck Eurynome down. The other titans, angered by her abandonment of their fight, refused to come to her aid. Eurynome's body became the first island, her blood - the first river, and her soul became a vestige.

If you make a poor pact with Eurynome, she influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


Flaw
I see secret motives and possible betrayals behind every action.


Personality Trait
I am a follower, not a leader. I act in ways my allies did before me.

[Prince Zahn]

I don't want to assume this thread has been forsaken. I hope it's not because people are bored with the concept:smalleek:

Where'd everyone go, really?

[The_Doctor]

Eurynome looks fine.

(Sorry for short reply, about to eat dinner and wifi is fluctuating up here at my grandma's house)

[Prince Zahn]

Eurynome looks fine.

(Sorry for short reply, about to eat dinner and wifi is fluctuating up here at my grandma's house)

Feel free to elaborate once you find the time.:smallsmile:

[Scarce]

The last week has kept me pretty busy, sorry.

@Eurynome

Animal Friend: Is starting attitude still a thing?

Poisonous Blood: Needs some editing for brevity. How about:

While you are bound to Eurynome, your blood becomes poisonous to those who drink it. Each time a creature ingests your blood or makes a successful bite attack against you, the creature must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 2d10 poison damage and is poisoned for 1 hour. A creature takes half as much damage on a successful save and is not Poisoned. If a creature has swallowed you whole, it makes this Constitution saving throw each round you are within it.
Your blood loses it's potency 1 minute after leaving your body if it is not ingested.
Starting At 14th Level, this damage increases to 5d10 poison damage.

Rain Dance: Why does it say "(provided you can cast a spell of 3rd level or higher)"? I'm confused by this.

Water Frolic: Needs to be reworded, I think. How about:

You can walk on any body of liquid as if it were firm ground. Additionally, as an action, you can choose to make any cloud you can see in the sky drizzle lightly for 1 minute, or suppress a raining cloud for that duration.

Other than that, it looks good.

[Prince Zahn]

SCARCE!:smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smallamused::sma lltongue:


Yes, Starting attitude is still a thing. It's more for role-playing purposes to tell whether a creature is going to attack/oppose you or try to make nice-nice
sounds good to me, that'll be fixed as soon as I get Evernote working again.:smallsmile:
There was a fair bit of confusion somewhere within the last 2 pages about "knowing X Spell", the original intent was to cater to the Awakened Binder, who would have a fairly limited spell list with just conjurations and...(enchantments, I think?) from the Sorcerer spell list, who of all the classes Anaxi could have picked has so few of those at the levels relevant. The idea was that knowing a spell won't do you good anyway if you don't have the minimal spell slot cast it, but if it's a level you you cast then It's gravy!
Anaximander and I don't always see things eye to eye, but I understand that requires clarification and perhaps even a streamlined ruling.
I like your phrasing for Water Frolic better, It's a lot cleaner. To be fair I drafted Eurynome in less than a day, the rest of the time between conception and posting was research.:smallredface:


I was kinda of worried about Shillelagh, as the creator I felt a pinch disappointed when I compared it to the oversized +3 Anarchic warhammer you would get in 3.5, what are people's thoughts on this?

[ImSAMazing]

This is really awesome! Thanks!
*never knew before that there were campaign-specific vestiges*:smallredface:

I have the ToM on my bookshelf, so it's not crucial right now.
As of right now I'm cross-referencing between the ToM and the 5E PHB. I may have a few questions for Anaximander by the time he gets back, including vestiges we might bump up a level to make room for 9th level power
:smalleek:
Must've missed that, you're right!

Does anyone have any other thoughts, comments, ideas, critiques?

Yeah, please give a great reason that I can say to my DM so I can play this aweSAM class! I really like the idea, the concept and the design.

[Prince Zahn]

Yeah, please give a great reason that I can say to my DM so I can play this aweSAM class! I really like the idea, the concept and the design.


Binders have a wealth of adventure lore and role playing opportunities.
They can fill a variety of roles
Vestiges can be refluffed if they are too creepy for any given campaign.
Any problems in balance you could fix and report here (so we could fix It and do a better job)
It would make me jeallous with a great passion.


Do you need any more, my friend?

[ImSAMazing]

Binders have a wealth of adventure lore and role playing opportunities.
They can fill a variety of roles
Vestiges can be refluffed if they are too creepy for any given campaign.
Any problems in balance you could fix and report here (so we could fix It and do a better job)
It would make me jeallous with a great passion.


Do you need any more, my friend?

Thanks for posting this reason, definetly going to play this class soon!

[Prince Zahn]

My pleasure! Let me know how it turns out! :smallbiggrin:

[The_Doctor]

I'm going to be playtesting soon too; he's going to be the BBEG for my campaign. (Obviously its allowed; I'm the DM.)

[Prince Zahn]

Thanks for posting this reason, definetly going to play this class soon!


I'm going to be playtesting soon too; he's going to be the BBEG for my campaign. (Obviously its allowed; I'm the DM.)

These make me very happy to hear. If Anaxi was around, He would probably be proud too to see how far we took his idea. :smallsmile:

Please keep the thread informed with any information on the class's performance :smallbiggrin: these days I'm a little busy, but I'm working in increments to see how we can advance from here. Stay tuned!

[ImSAMazing]

These make me very happy to hear. If Anaxi was around, He would probably be proud too to see how far we took his idea. :smallsmile:

Please keep the thread informed with any information on the class's performance :smallbiggrin: these days I'm a little busy, but I'm working in increments to see how we can advance from here. Stay tuned!

You must stay tuned to!

[ImSAMazing]

Just a tip:


Is the class on the first post the current state of the class? I ask this because in the class it says you get an unique ability from a trusted vestige. And I think the Pact DCs should be a higher for lvl 9 Vestiges. By then you probably have +11 persuasion (+5 cha, +6 prof.).

[Prince Zahn]

Just a tip:


Is the class on the first post the current state of the class? I ask this because in the class it says you get an unique ability from a trusted vestige. And I think the Pact DCs should be a higher for lvl 9 Vestiges. By then you probably have +11 persuasion (+5 cha, +6 prof.).

I fear that the class chart is somewhat outdated. I'll definitely think about making an index.

EDIT: Also, the way things are, the binder does not necessarily have to posess the negotiation skill, since binding with a vestige is an unnamed charisma check. That way, we have the means of being creative with the pact making process - negotiations, arguments, questioning the vestige, or just a contest of wills (for players who prefer less RP.)

But yes, your point is valid - 9th level vestiges need DCs catered to 17th level characters, which should be considered to have a +10 modifier at the core minimum (+4 Cha + 6 Prof). The binder should be like every other class in 5e, in the sense that you have to go out of your way to screw up the character. That's a smart approach from 5e as far as I'm concerned.

[ImSAMazing]

I fear that the class chart is somewhat outdated. I'll definitely think about making an index.

EDIT: Also, the way things are, the binder does not necessarily have to posess the negotiation skill, since binding with a vestige is an unnamed charisma check. That way, we have the means of being creative with the pact making process - negotiations, arguments, questioning the vestige, or just a contest of wills (for players who prefer less RP.)

But yes, your point is valid - 9th level vestiges need DCs catered to 17th level characters, which should be considered to have a +10 modifier at the core minimum (+4 Cha + 6 Prof). The binder should be like every other class in 5e, in the sense that you have to go out of your way to screw up the character. That's a smart approach from 5e as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks for responding. I'd like to see the current state of the class. Also, can you give me 3 reasons why the Binder is balanced? My DM likes the class but says that he cant really say if it is balanced

[Prince Zahn]

Also, can you give me 3 reasons why the Binder is balanced? My DM likes the class but says that he cant really say if it is balanced
I think I like this little game :smalltongue:

Well, the first thing to point out is that right now this is all untested homebrew. The only way to guarantee that it's balanced is to actually try and see how it works on the field.

Try it, tell us how it compares to other characters. If it's not as balanced as we hope it to be, tell us - and we'll brainstorm on how we can fix it. As far as I know, You and The Doctor are the first two playtesters, as we haven't heard from anybody else. In actuality, The 5e binder stands on equal grounds with the mystic class, in terms of it's progress state.

With all that said, here are the other reasons why -I- think it should be balanced:

Most of the Material within the vestiges we built are drawn from Canon 5e sources (usually the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide), with careful consideration to what features are available and when - we would rather raise or lower the level of a vestige than make it over-/under-powered.
In the Original Poster's absence, I am working to supervise this project, with the help of a pleasantly vigilant and determined crew.
I regard myself as well acquainted with both the 3.5 Tome Of Magic (at least the Pact Magic section!), as well as the 5e Player's Handbook (I've been following and taking notes on 5e and it's creator staff since D&D Next was first announced. My only problem is that I never played a Binder for long enough to experience it fully, but I try my absolute best to prove I'm qualified. And if I go too far off, I get corrected anyway. That's what the group is for :smallbiggrin:


Finally, I decided that I will start a new thread for this class with all the updated material, so it'll hopefully be a little easier to make out once I clean it all up and post it :smallsmile:

[ImSAMazing]

I think I like this little game :smalltongue:

Well, the first thing to point out is that right now this is all untested homebrew. The only way to guarantee that it's balanced is to actually try and see how it works on the field.

Try it, tell us how it compares to other characters. If it's not as balanced as we hope it to be, tell us - and we'll brainstorm on how we can fix it. As far as I know, You and The Doctor are the first two playtesters, as we haven't heard from anybody else. In actuality, The 5e binder stands on equal grounds with the mystic class, in terms of it's progress state.

With all that said, here are the other reasons why -I- think it should be balanced:

Most of the Material within the vestiges we built are drawn from Canon 5e sources (usually the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide), with careful consideration to what features are available and when - we would rather raise or lower the level of a vestige than make it over-/under-powered.
In the Original Poster's absence, I am working to supervise this project, with the help of a pleasantly vigilant and determined crew.
I regard myself as well acquainted with both the 3.5 Tome Of Magic (at least the Pact Magic section!), as well as the 5e Player's Handbook (I've been following and taking notes on 5e and it's creator staff since D&D Next was first announced. My only problem is that I never played a Binder for long enough to experience it fully, but I try my absolute best to prove I'm qualified. And if I go too far off, I get corrected anyway. That's what the group is for :smallbiggrin:


Finally, I decided that I will start a new thread for this class with all the updated material, so it'll hopefully be a little easier to make out once I clean it all up and post it :smallsmile:

Great to hear. However, when are you going to mak3 the thread, so exited to playtest it

[Prince Zahn]

I'm currently working on it.rewriting some text and trying to make order of things. Should be ready within a few days if no other projects prioritize at the last minute.

[The_Doctor]

I have tested the binder!

He was the BBEG for the campaign, so I gave him a few extra HP, but that's it. The he managed to almost 1-hit K.O. the cleric of the group with Amon's fire breath (one round hold time). The cleric countered with some spell that did like 30 points of damage and then killed him. He then then used Sacred Flame a lot and incinerated the body.

The idjits killed someone I intended to be a recurring villain... or did they?

[Prince Zahn]

What level was this test, Doctor?

[Scarce]

Congrats on the first test!

@Yellow King: After a long procrastination, I finished the Pallid Mask ability. I'm not sure if it's too powerful without a limit on how many times a creature can be stunned by it.

Which vestige should I work on next?

[Prince Zahn]

Ladies, Gentlemen, (and everything in between) we are moving to a new thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430658-PEACH-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-II-(Still-WIP)&p=19596227#post19596227)

As well as the promised index thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430663-Prince-Zahn-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder))