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View Full Version : Can you make the most overpowered (first level) build Ever?



Mr. Moogle
2007-04-17, 09:12 AM
I dont think i have the MOST overpowered bould ever but heres what i got. Enjoy...

Race: Human
Class: Warlock
invocation: darkness, devils sight
feats: weapon focus (ranged touch), extra invocation

Strategy
Precombat: cast devils sight
1st round: cast darkness
all remaining rounds: Go blast happy (my favorite part :smallbiggrin:)

Heres the cool part. Eldrich blast is a touch attack right? well when inside the darkness they are also flat footed so there max armor class (unless maically boosted) is only 10!

Charity
2007-04-17, 09:14 AM
You might want to search the WOTC boards for a little fella called Pun pun, then give up any attempts to top it.

Tengu
2007-04-17, 09:18 AM
Is it a level 1 build though?

Reinboom
2007-04-17, 09:22 AM
There is a level 1 version of pun pun using the fiendish codexes, yes.

NullAshton
2007-04-17, 09:29 AM
That uses something assuming that a certain demon is in the hypothetical campaign setting Pun Pun is in, yes.

I think that for all character optimization builds, they should be as campaign-independent as possible. Thus, no using obscure creatures from a book, no using a certain demon that's statted up, and thus people can't use pun pun to attempt to 'top' all other builds.

Talya
2007-04-17, 09:31 AM
Haven't seen "Pun Pun." But Mongo, my friend's minmaxed half orc fighter at 20 str, 12 dex, 18 con, 6 int, 8 wis, 6 cha, power attack, and cleave...while he'll suck at higher levels, is truly terrifying right now.

ZekeArgo
2007-04-17, 09:32 AM
That uses something assuming that a certain demon is in the hypothetical campaign setting Pun Pun is in, yes.

I think that for all character optimization builds, they should be as campaign-independent as possible. Thus, no using obscure creatures from a book, no using a certain demon that's statted up, and thus people can't use pun pun to attempt to 'top' all other builds.

Um, but in this particular circumstance the OP asked for the craziest, most min-maxxed option out there. That goes with the assumption that anything is allowed, and thus you get your anwser: pun-pun.

If there were other restrictions or any recognition that this character would actually be used in a campaign then other things would be suggested. But dispite being unplayable Pun-Pun is indeed the most overpowered level 1 character.

Reinboom
2007-04-17, 09:34 AM
Pun Pun = Infinite Every stat and every ability in the game, in short.

Anyways, how about most optimized non-obscure reference/creature type/shape shifting abuse level 1 characters! :smile:

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 09:40 AM
I dont think i have the MOST overpowered bould ever but heres what i got. Enjoy...

Race: Human
Class: Warlock
invocation: darkness, devils sight
feats: weapon focus (ranged touch), extra invocation

Strategy
Precombat: cast devils sight
1st round: cast darkness
all remaining rounds: Go blast happy (my favorite part :smallbiggrin:)

Heres the cool part. Eldrich blast is a touch attack right? well when inside the darkness they are also flat footed so there max armor class (unless maically boosted) is only 10!

Okay, first off, you need to re-read the actual text of Extra Invocation, you can't even take it until you're 6th level. So while that makes the entire build flatly illegal, I'm going to continue taking it apart while everyone argues over pun pun.

You also don't meet the prerequisite for weapon focus. You now have taken two feats that are illegal. Congrats.

Also, people inside darkness are NOT flat footed. They simply have concealment (only a 20% miss chance) against everything inside the darkness. Not to mention it's only 20 feet from the center, so even if you're wearing heavy armor, on the far edge, and traveling the wrong direction all the way back through, it'll take you only two moves to get out unless you run into something, which is unlikely since you aren't actually blind.

Also, even though you only have to beat touch AC, you're stuck with only your dex bonus, as you have no attack roll, vs. most likely just your opponent's dex. Opposed rolls, pretty much, for a d6 of damage. This may kill the party wizard or a sickly rogue/bard. However, you have now spent two turns to have an even chance at doing a d6 of damage.

On the other hand, a falchion wielding half orc barbarian in a rage will disable you with one hit, and on a good damage roll or critical will kill you entirely. Personally, I think at level one the only real improvements are switching to a greatsword, going full orc, and taking improved initiative so you don't take more than one or two attacks before ending the life of your opponent. This rapidly loses effectiveness, however, past level 2.

Luircin
2007-04-17, 11:14 AM
A human sorcerer with a Improved Init, Spell Focus: Enchantment (Or insert your own DC-boosting feat here), and sleep or color spray. With a longspear and/or a scythe for the coup de grace, or a familiar that somehow has an attack that does more than 4 damage on a crit.

If I wanted to go for the fun factor, I'd say a bard with Improved Init and Skill Focus: Perform. It's only good in fights against a single foe, but winning initiative and fascinating the enemy with your obscene perform check on the first round (before he can be considered threatened) is always fun.

Of course, if you don't win initiative? Hel-lo raging barbarian with two-handed weapon. *Crunch*

Ikkitosen
2007-04-17, 11:28 AM
Halfling thrower in an Arena I played had a +10 thrown AB at 1st, plus a great AC. He did just great, but then no-one targeted his Will save.

Mr. Moogle
2007-04-17, 08:06 PM
Okay, first off, you need to re-read the actual text of Extra Invocation, you can't even take it until you're 6th level. So while that makes the entire build flatly illegal, I'm going to continue taking it apart while everyone argues over pun pun.

You also don't meet the prerequisite for weapon focus. You now have taken two feats that are illegal. Congrats.

Also, people inside darkness are NOT flat footed. They simply have concealment (only a 20% miss chance) against everything inside the darkness. Not to mention it's only 20 feet from the center, so even if you're wearing heavy armor, on the far edge, and traveling the wrong direction all the way back through, it'll take you only two moves to get out unless you run into something, which is unlikely since you aren't actually blind.

Also, even though you only have to beat touch AC, you're stuck with only your dex bonus, as you have no attack roll, vs. most likely just your opponent's dex. Opposed rolls, pretty much, for a d6 of damage. This may kill the party wizard or a sickly rogue/bard. However, you have now spent two turns to have an even chance at doing a d6 of damage.

On the other hand, a falchion wielding half orc barbarian in a rage will disable you with one hit, and on a good damage roll or critical will kill you entirely. Personally, I think at level one the only real improvements are switching to a greatsword, going full orc, and taking improved initiative so you don't take more than one or two attacks before ending the life of your opponent. This rapidly loses effectiveness, however, past level 2.

I'm going to double-check that, but i think if they cant see you their considered flat footed. Also as far as combat innefectiveness if you lose initiative you cast darkness defensively, take a 5-foot step back and then move backwards, they have no idea where you are.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 08:09 PM
Darkness doesn't block vision, it provides concealment and "shadowy illumination".

That's right, Darkness isn't actually dark.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-17, 08:12 PM
How about mario?

1'st level... psywar? Manifests expansion, uses crazy jump check to jump 10 feet up, lands dealing 20d6.

Assassinfox
2007-04-17, 08:13 PM
Level 1 build, eh?

Okay.

Level 1 Pit Fiend Crusader.

martyboy74
2007-04-17, 08:32 PM
Level 1 build, eh?

Okay.

Level 1 Pit Fiend Crusader.
Level 1 means ECL one, not ECL 19 + -. Pit Fiend aren't even frikken' playable.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-17, 08:35 PM
Darkness doesn't block vision, it provides concealment and "shadowy illumination".

That's right, Darkness isn't actually dark.And if you're really literal, you can cast the spell in real area of 100% total blackness, and it will light things up.

Dhavaer
2007-04-17, 08:40 PM
How about mario?

1'st level... psywar? Manifests expansion, uses crazy jump check to jump 10 feet up, lands dealing 20d6.

Mario has an LA. He a Paragon, or something.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-17, 08:58 PM
Strong Heart Halfling or Human Wiz. with two flaws (from Unearthed Arcana). Non Combatant and Inattentive work well. Silent, Still, Quicken, and Innate Spell meta feats. You can cast magic missile once per round. Be the halfling and hide (you should be able to spare a few CC ranks). Even if they close in for melee, you can blast away. Sure its not immediate, but it is consistant and an elcellent way to play a first lv. Wiz who doesn't need to run and hide after casting his one (or 2) useful spells (just hide and blast away).

The Valiant Turtle
2007-04-17, 09:14 PM
A rather powerful build is an Azurin Incarnate with Improved Essentia Capacity with Dissolving Spittle shaped. They can spit a 3d6 glob of acid 30' as a ranged touch attack every round.

It actually works for several races, including humans if they take a feat that grants them +1 Essentia.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 09:56 PM
I'm going to double-check that, but i think if they cant see you their considered flat footed. Also as far as combat innefectiveness if you lose initiative you cast darkness defensively, take a 5-foot step back and then move backwards, they have no idea where you are.

Not being able to see someone is a 50% miss chance, whether from blindness or from them being invisible.

Darkness is only 20%. This is less than half that of not being able to see. Therefore, you've got to assume that they do have some seeing ability. And like I said, it's only 20' from the center, for a total width of 40'. Devil's sight is 30' from you. So unless you enter the darkness, there will still be areas inside that you can't see into any better than the other guy.

They'll only be flatfooted if you win initiative in the first round or get surprise. This is not something you can guarantee. Although since you have two open feats, there's nothing preventing you from taking improved initiative.

JaronK
2007-04-17, 10:10 PM
Be a wizard... pretty much any race. Pump your charisma and take some handle animal. Sell your spellbook, which is worth an obscene amount of gold. Use the money to buy a horde of Magebreed Riding Dogs. Sick them on the enemy. You can get I think 10 of them this way. Go forth little zerglings!

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-17, 10:24 PM
I'll have to second the 1st level human Sorcerer with a Shortspear for a melee weapon, a Heavy Crossbow, and Sleep as a spell known, with Improved Initiative and Spell Focus (Enchantment). Unless you got a hella Will save, odds are you're going to be knocked out, and CDG'd to death. Even better if he's allowed to pre-buff with Mage Armor, because he's got decent AC.

The level 1 Half-Orc Barbarian with a 20 Str and a Greatsword will also tend to one-shot just about anything if it goes first.

Heck, there's a BUNCH of level 1 builds that will kill any level one build if it can go first. First level builds are front-loaded to kill anything their level in one hit and pray they don't get hit in return.

JaronK
2007-04-17, 10:33 PM
Hence the wizard with the dogs. He's surrounded by 10 or so magebreed riding dogs, each one of which is strong enough to be a threat to any of the characters mentioned. Sure, you can sleep one or two of them when you get the drop on them, but then what?

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-17, 10:44 PM
Hence the wizard with the dogs. He's surrounded by 10 or so magebreed riding dogs, each one of which is strong enough to be a threat to any of the characters mentioned. Sure, you can sleep one or two of them when you get the drop on them, but then what?

JaronK

10 Magebreed Riding Dogs are *WAY* out of the WBL guide for a 1st level character, and they would just as likely attack the wizard, who has only one or two ranks in Handle Animal.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 10:44 PM
The wizard sells his spellbook in order to afford the (already-trained) Magebreed Riding Dogs. A wizard's spellbook is worth a lot.

kamikasei
2007-04-17, 10:51 PM
Darkness doesn't block vision, it provides concealment and "shadowy illumination".

That's right, Darkness isn't actually dark.

Here's a minor question that came up in our game just the other day. Can you read in Darkness (say, to cast from a scroll)?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 10:54 PM
Yes.
Yes, you can. Even if the room was pitch-black before.

JaronK
2007-04-17, 10:55 PM
10 Magebreed Riding Dogs are *WAY* out of the WBL guide for a 1st level character, and they would just as likely attack the wizard, who has only one or two ranks in Handle Animal.

As BWL said, a wizard's spellbook, the one he gets free just for having one level of wizard, is worth thousands of gold. Easily enough for some magebreed riding dogs.

See? Wizards win, no matter what. Even Int 8 wizards, in this case (set all stats to 8 except max out Con and Dex (plus a little charisma), and hide behind a tower shield while your dogs go to town.

EDIT: A spellbook is worth 100gp per page. An Int 8 Wizard starts with all level 0 spells that were ever written for the Wizard, plus 3 level 1 spells. Each of those takes one page. I have no idea how many 0 level spells there are... the PHB has 19, but there's far more than that out there. I'd guess about 50 total in all spatbooks, including the 3 level 1 spells. You can sell the book for half the total value, which is 2500gp. A magebreed riding dog is 300gp, so you can get 8 of them (less than I thought, admittedly). That leaves enough for Scale Male and a tower shield, giving you +8 AC and the option to hide behind it for total cover. You've got 20gp left over for... some water or something. Still, 8 magebreed riding dogs (or 16 reguler ones) are going to run over most anything at level 1.

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-17, 11:12 PM
That's some pretty stinky cheeze...

However:

Sorcerer wins initiative, sleeps the wizard. Wizard can no longer command his dogs to go kill anything. Color Spray ought to take care of most of the rest of the dogs. Wade in and CDG the wizard, your only true foe, then leave before the dogs wake up.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 11:16 PM
Odds are a few of the dogs will win initiative, no?

JaronK
2007-04-17, 11:20 PM
That's some pretty stinky cheeze...

However:

Sorcerer wins initiative, sleeps the wizard. Wizard can no longer command his dogs to go kill anything. Color Spray ought to take care of most of the rest of the dogs. Wade in and CDG the wizard, your only true foe, then leave before the dogs wake up.

Dogs are well trained war dogs (riding dogs all have such training). They are given the prior command to protect the wizard. 8 dogs, all of whom will attack if you sleep the wizard. Also, the wizard has total concealment, and has no need to be close. You honestly think you can take out all 8 before one of them lands a hit (because when they do, you get tripped, and the fight is basically over)?

Plus, as Bears pointed out, they can each roll initiative seperately, and as trained warbeasts, can be ready to charge in at the get go.

No, your little sorcerer does not stand a chance. Also note that the Wizard has spent no feats... and he's a Strongheart Halfling, let's say. He'll just take Improved Initiative and, um, Iron Will?

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-17, 11:22 PM
Also, you can command them as a free action.

Remember, kids: dogs are not magic items!

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-18, 01:20 AM
Also, you can command them as a free action.

Remember, kids: dogs are not magic items!

You still need to have your turn to command them. I fail to see how the dogs would give him full concealment, or why that would even matter considering Sleep isn't an attack spell. I would still have 3 hd left over after the wizard to nail a couple others.

Of course, I mentioned Improved Init in my build, and since I didn't screw the rest of my stats, probably have a better init rating than the wizard.

What are the HD of those critters, anyways? Also, what is their AC? If I grab a Longspear, I'll get AoO before they can close with me. My two feats could easily be Improved Init and Combat Reflexes rather than Spell Focus (enchantment). If they're comming at me all bunched up, I could hit a LOT of 'em with Color Spray, probably moreso than with Sleep anyways. Regular riding dogs are 2 hd, so failed saves (and with a will save of +1, that's pretty darn likely) 2d4 rounds unconcious, then another d4 blind and stunned, then another round stunned.

Sure, once I get a solid hit on me, I'm dead. However, even a 1st level Sorcerer has like 4 1st level spells, plus his Longspear, to keep 'em at bay a LOT longer than ya might think.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-18, 01:44 AM
You can take free actions at any point, not just your turn. If you couldn't, then you couldn't speak except on your turn. The wizard can command the dogs before you can do anything.

Riding Dogs are in the SRD. The Magebred template adds... I forget what, but htere are some stat bonuses. The dogs will kill and eat you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-18, 02:12 AM
You can take free actions at any point, not just your turn. If you couldn't, then you couldn't speak except on your turn. The wizard can command the dogs before you can do anything.

Riding Dogs are in the SRD. The Magebred template adds... I forget what, but htere are some stat bonuses. The dogs will kill and eat you.

Are there any rules for purchasing mounts with templates? You can get eight BASE riding dogs, not eight magebred or whatever dogs.

And the easy way around that:

Human Barbarian with some meaningless flaw. Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. Riding dogs have, on average, 13 hit points. Greatsword + Str bonus * 1.5... let's say a Strength of 18, gives him a 22 in rage, which is +6, which is a +9 to damage. So he's doing 2d6+9. That's a heck of a lot more than 13 damage per hit on average. So, all dogs dead in one turn, shortly followed by the fairly short-sighted wizard.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-18, 02:28 AM
The Magebred template is designed for animals. It has costs for magebred animals. He can't reach all the dogs in one round.

And the wizard can hit him with Sleep.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-18, 02:36 AM
The Magebred template is designed for animals. It has costs for magebred animals. He can't reach all the dogs in one round.

And the wizard can hit him with Sleep.

Not if he sold his spellbook

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 02:42 AM
Not if he sold his spellbook

Memorize all sleep spells in your first level slots, THEN sell the spellbook.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-18, 02:49 AM
Precisely!

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-04-18, 03:00 AM
You can take free actions at any point, not just your turn. If you couldn't, then you couldn't speak except on your turn.

A minor nitpick.
You cannot generally take free actions at any point. speaking is a special exception that allows you to take a (free) action while it is not your turn.


Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Glorfindel
2007-04-18, 03:49 AM
Human Barbarian with some meaningless flaw. Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. Riding dogs have, on average, 13 hit points. Greatsword + Str bonus * 1.5... let's say a Strength of 18, gives him a 22 in rage, which is +6, which is a +9 to damage. So he's doing 2d6+9. That's a heck of a lot more than 13 damage per hit on average. So, all dogs dead in one turn, shortly followed by the fairly short-sighted wizard.

Except that you need a BAB of +4 for Great Cleave ...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greatCleave

Quietus
2007-04-18, 04:02 AM
The magebred kennel owner CAN, indeed, prepare spells - if he takes Spell Mastery as his first level feat.

Might be fun to attempt a VoP wizard sometime, just to see how bad I could actually make him. One of those chars I truly wouldn't attempt without at least an 18, however, since even with that I'd be falling slightly behind in how many spells I can claim mastery of.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 04:03 AM
Huh. The wizard wins at both level 1 and level 20.

Quietus
2007-04-18, 04:42 AM
Yes, but around level 5 he's only very powerful, not an instant win!

JaronK
2007-04-18, 05:04 AM
Are there any rules for purchasing mounts with templates? You can get eight BASE riding dogs, not eight magebred or whatever dogs.

No, I can get 16 BASE riding dogs. Magebreed is found in Eberron Campaign Setting, and doubles the price of the animal to get +4 strength, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 or so Natural AC, and a few other goodies. I can get 8 of those. Honestly, 16 regular riding dogs is probably better, but there's no way they're all getting in there.


And the easy way around that:

Human Barbarian with some meaningless flaw. Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave. Riding dogs have, on average, 13 hit points. Greatsword + Str bonus * 1.5... let's say a Strength of 18, gives him a 22 in rage, which is +6, which is a +9 to damage. So he's doing 2d6+9. That's a heck of a lot more than 13 damage per hit on average. So, all dogs dead in one turn, shortly followed by the fairly short-sighted wizard.

Great Cleave is not available at level 1. Even if it was, how do you plan to hit all of them at once? You must be surrounded by them, which means they've already acted (they would start rather spread out, after all, with one or two in between our intrepid wizard and the enemy). The magebreed dogs all have a high enough strength that they're very likely to trip you (every hit is a free trip) and once you go down, they'll all get attacks of opportunity on the way up. You'd never get a chance to swing with your illegal character.

As for cover, he's got that from the Tower Shield he's hiding behind. After all, I didn't actually plan to cast spells with them. He's there to shout "sick balls!" and then cower.

And yes, I forgot spell mastery, but that's cheating. The point is that the Int 8 Wizard could still dominate, and he can.

JaronK

Quietus
2007-04-18, 05:12 AM
True enough. However, what happens when you get someone who's gone Combat Reflexes -> High str/dex, for a good chance of tripping and a lot of AoO's? At that point, they can trip the dogs before they reach him, and form more or less a line of tripped dog bodies before hitting once, probably dropping said dog and cleaving, then moving back to repeat the process. Even assuming Power Attack -> Cleave -> Combat Reflexes, we're only seeing three feats, easily done with a human fighter. If we use flaws, we could take two flaws and add Combat Expertise->Improved Trip.

Taking all of this and using a reach weapon = good.

JaronK
2007-04-18, 05:33 AM
You still need to have your turn to command them. I fail to see how the dogs would give him full concealment, or why that would even matter considering Sleep isn't an attack spell. I would still have 3 hd left over after the wizard to nail a couple others.

Since you can speak at any time, the dogs can charge on their initiative. You have to beat the initative of all 8 dogs. Even with improved initiative, that's unlikely at best.


Of course, I mentioned Improved Init in my build, and since I didn't screw the rest of my stats, probably have a better init rating than the wizard.

Hardly matters. The wizard himself can't do anything other than hide behind his tower shield. I guess I could have given him Spell Mastery, but whatever, that wasn't the point. He's just going to have high Wis and Con for better saves, and a decent Dex. Dumping his Int, and Str, since he's not supposed to hurt anything or affect anything.


What are the HD of those critters, anyways? Also, what is their AC? If I grab a Longspear, I'll get AoO before they can close with me. My two feats could easily be Improved Init and Combat Reflexes rather than Spell Focus (enchantment).

You think your sorcerer can kill off 8 Magebreed Wardogs in one round with combat reflexes? How high is your strength? To give you an idea of what you're trying to stop 8 of with a first level sorcerer in melee:

Magebreed Riding Dog:
AC 20 (Touch 12, Flat Foot 18)
Speed 40
15 HP
Initiative +3
Attack: Bite +5 Melee (1d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +6, WIll +1
19 Str, 17 Dex, 17 Con, 2 Int, 12 Wis, 6 Cha
Alertness, Track, Improved Natural Attack: Bite

On successful hit, gets a free trip attempt (+4 base) with no attack of opportunity. If it fails, opponent can't trip back.

So... your longspear does 1d8 damage. To kill these things in one hit, you need at least a +5 strength mod, but to kill all of them, you need a strength of 28. On your sorcerer. Don't forget you need a dex of 26 to get enough attacks of opportunity. But hey, then you'll strike first, right?



If they're comming at me all bunched up, I could hit a LOT of 'em with Color Spray, probably moreso than with Sleep anyways. Regular riding dogs are 2 hd, so failed saves (and with a will save of +1, that's pretty darn likely) 2d4 rounds unconcious, then another d4 blind and stunned, then another round stunned.

They're not. Each goes on his initiative. Many will go before you, unless your dex is insanely high and you get very lucky, which I strongly doubt. You'll never have a chance to cast a spell.


Sure, once I get a solid hit on me, I'm dead. However, even a 1st level Sorcerer has like 4 1st level spells, plus his Longspear, to keep 'em at bay a LOT longer than ya might think.

No, it really won't. You really think your 0 BAB sorcerer, who needs a rediculously high Dex to get his high initiative and attacks of opportunity, also has high enough strength to hit AC 20? And he can cast with his charisma? Please.

So seriously, consider that you're fighting 8 of those things, when just one is a passable threat to even an optomized character. Unless you can figure out how to stop the lot of them from attacking you, you're screwed.

Now, if there's a character that can start flying from level 1, you might have something.

JaronK

JaronK
2007-04-18, 05:40 AM
True enough. However, what happens when you get someone who's gone Combat Reflexes -> High str/dex, for a good chance of tripping and a lot of AoO's? At that point, they can trip the dogs before they reach him, and form more or less a line of tripped dog bodies before hitting once, probably dropping said dog and cleaving, then moving back to repeat the process. Even assuming Power Attack -> Cleave -> Combat Reflexes, we're only seeing three feats, easily done with a human fighter. If we use flaws, we could take two flaws and add Combat Expertise->Improved Trip.

Taking all of this and using a reach weapon = good.

Your human fighter has a theoretical max dex of 18, for 4 total attacks of opportunities. I'm not sure what the point buy is supposed to be here, but I would guess that if his dex is that high, his strength can't be 18 too. But lets go nuts. Let's give your guy strength 18 too. Since the dogs are all strength 19 and on four legs, that human fighter is four points lower on his trip check... any failure means his little reach weapon just got torn out of his hands (or he goes down). He's going down fast... and don't tell me he has an 18 in con too.

Think about it. Look at the stats of those dogs, remember that they've got a +4 to resist being tripped (for being on four legs) and are stronger than any human, and consider that they've outnumbered you 8 to 1, most of them acting before you can do anything. Plus, they've got enough hitpoints that one shot won't kill them most of the time, so cleave won't save you.

Unless you can completely remove the dog's ability to attack you, or gaurentee you can go first before 8 dogs, each of which has +3 to initiative checks, and then kill the wizard (not just knock him out, the dogs will take you down. You have to win in one shot), there's no way to beat this guy.

Wizards: even at level 1, even without spells, they've got you beat.

JaronK

SITB
2007-04-18, 06:00 AM
What is the CR of those dogs anyway, alone and in the group?

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 06:04 AM
Doesn't improved trip let you keep your weapon/not fall down on a failed trip attempt?

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-18, 06:37 AM
Doesn't improved trip let you keep your weapon/not fall down on a failed trip attempt?
Not so much.

Improved Trip [General]

Prerequisites

Int 13, Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise).

Benefit

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when you attempt to trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal

Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when you attempt to trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) an opponent while you are unarmed.

Nick of Time
2007-04-18, 06:42 AM
Here is the link to pun-pun that people were talking about.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Necromas
2007-04-18, 06:45 AM
Level 1 Human Warmage
2 flaws
Feats: Bloodline of Fire (+2 caster level with fire spells), The one that gives you a level 2 spell slot, Fiery Burst (reserve feat), spell focus: evocation.


You have significantly better survivability then other level 1 casters because of the 2 extra hp and armored mage, and you can run around throwing burning hands (3d4+int fire damage cone, reflex half) and lesser orbs of fire (2d8+int fire damage ranged touch, ignores SR). Even when you burn all your level 1 spell slots, you can still create an infinite number of 5ft radius explosions that deal 2d6+int fire damage. And at level 1 I doubt too many of your enemies will be resistant to fire damage, even if an enemy has evasion and a killer reflex save you can still get em with orbs of fire, or in an emergency use up your level 2 spell slot. Go crazy with your race choice too since you don't need the human bonus feat and can ditch spell focus.

lord_khaine
2007-04-18, 07:02 AM
and even that build would be eaten by the dogs.
at higher lv it really isnt a good idea to be a warmage, if you are thinking about optimerisation, since as a warmage you give up on a lot of versatility, and the increased ac and hp does not make up for the lost defence spells like Fly or invisibility gives you.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 07:07 AM
Something with high charisma, UMD, and some UMD feats could get a pretty good chance of casting a spell off a scroll, though it's unlikely they'd be able to afford the scroll with 100 gp of starting wealth.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-18, 08:02 AM
Wizard, max cha and CC UMD (so a 2 point deficit over having it as a class skill). Skill focus for +3 and a +2 to 2 feat gets you +11. Sell your spellbook. Get scrolls.

Lose because the dogs eat you before you act, unless there is a buffing round or you can start with long-running spells pre-cast.

EDIT: Or buy 3 dogs and put them in a wall in front of you. Spend the rest of scrolls of protection and death.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 08:05 AM
Alright then... druid diplomancer.
Turn the dogs on their master!

Half elf, 18 charisma, negotiator feat. That's a whopping... 12. Ehh, not gonna happen. Plus, you'd need a minute to talk them out of it.

Ah, I know. Entangle them in the first round. You may get chewed up a bit, but hopefully they'll go after your mount. If you're on a horse, you won't get tripped. You now have 1 minute to 'talk' a dog to indifferent, with a roll of 13 or higher. Cast entangle again, try and talk another dog down.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-18, 08:19 AM
I feel the need to point out that the wizard's spellbook is only worth 15GP with out the spells. With the cantrips and max of 7 first level spells, it still isn't worth more than 500 GP.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 08:24 AM
I feel the need to point out that the wizard's spellbook is only worth about 50 or so gp with out the spells and with the few spells that he would have (cantrips and what 2 spells of first level) it would only be worth 500 or so gp tops.

The Wizard gets 19 cantrips (from core), and 3 level one spells. Each spell takes up one page. With all the splat books out there, the wizard probably could start out with 30 cantrips, and 3 level 1 spells.

That's 33 pages of spell book. A page is worth 100 gp. That's 3300 gp.

KoDT69
2007-04-18, 08:25 AM
Also, you can command them as a free action.

Remember, kids: dogs are not magic items!

If the wizard in question is a Tinker Gnome they're probably clockwork brass golem-type dogs, so would that count as magic items? :smallwink:

BardicDuelist
2007-04-18, 08:35 AM
Where does it say that each page is worth 100GP? and if you are right, then thats 3315GP:smallbiggrin:

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 08:42 AM
Where does it say that each page is worth 100GP? and if you are right, then thats 3315GP:smallbiggrin:

You can sell a captured spellbook for one half the cost to put spells in it, which is 100gp/page.

Guess that's 3315/2 GP.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#sellingaSpellbook

Vik
2007-04-18, 08:46 AM
The fact is that the rule "every lvl 0 spell" most certainly only applies to core spells.
That's still 22+Int bonus spells, so we're in the 2,500 gp area, meaning 1,250 gp if sold.

EloquentRune
2007-04-18, 08:52 AM
I made an overpowered crafter at lv.1 it had a skill check of +13 to craft

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-18, 08:52 AM
The fact is that the rule "every lvl 0 spell" most certainly only applies to core spells.
That's still 22+Int bonus spells, so we're in the 2,500 gp area, meaning 1,250 gp if sold.
No. It appleis to every level 0 spell published on any wizard spell list in any 3.5 book. Just like clerics get access to all spells in all books that are on their class look in any of those books.

Machete
2007-04-18, 08:55 AM
Too bad Warlocks can't take extra invocation until the yget their first lesser invocation.

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 09:07 AM
Illuminan with 2 flaws

Precocious Apprentice
Improved Sigil Krau

now you have a couple options for your last feat.
You take Fiery Burst(reserve feat) to get 3d6 fire damage to everyone one in a 5 foot radius up to 30 feet away.
You take Storm Bolt(reserve feat) to get 3d6 electricty damage in a 20 ft line
You take Winter Blast(reserve feat) to get 3d4 cold damage to everyone in a 15 ft cone.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 09:09 AM
That still isn't going to do anything to those dogs.

Gamebird
2007-04-18, 10:25 AM
What about cattle? They're a lot cheaper than dogs, especially magebred ones. I saw a build once for a level 1 commoner with some feat that increased starting cash. You could combine that with the wizard-selling-spellbook idea for an outrageous amount of cash and then spend it all buying cattle.

Let's assume we have 1500 gp to work with (having spent any excess on other equipment). A mule costs 8 gp and is presumably trained. I can't find an SRD price for a cow, but I figure it's less than a mule. Say, 5 gp. (Perversely, you can easily sell a 1200 pound mule for around 400 gp if you sell it for meat weight and assume "meat" to make up about half the animal. So I suppose if money is a problem, just buy a lot of mules and sell their meat for a huge profit.)

Anyway, 5 gp per cow would get you 300 cattle who do 60d12 damage to any enemy (or group of enemies) of Large size of smaller. No dodge, no getting out of the way, no attack roll needed (though you can save for half and I presume Evasion would work). Just 60d12 damage. Average of 390, or 195 with a successful saving throw.

At first level.

SRD:

Stampede (Ex (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities))

A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half). The save DC is Strength-based.

and
The bison’s statistics can be used for almost any large herd animal.

Bison also have 5 hit dice and a move of 40, plus there's nothing to say you can't train a cow as a mount or to carry your gear.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-18, 06:50 PM
Cows would cost more than mules, as they're bigger and require more land and food.

PerpetualNewb
2007-04-18, 06:55 PM
Level 1 Human Fighter (pure PHB I)
Str - 18 (+4)
Feats - Mounted Combat (1st level char)
Ride-by Attack (Human bonus feat)
Spirited Charge (Fighter bonus feat)
Weapon - Lance (1d8 x3)
Other equipment - Warhorse
Base damage - 1d8 + 4 = (5-12)

Charging grants an x2 multiplier to lance damage when, well.. charging on a horse, and the Spirited Charge feat bumps this up to x3.
Charing damage - (1d8 + 4)*3 = (15-36)

The Lance also has an x3 crit multiplier, raising the total multiplier to x5.
Total damage - (1d8 + 4)*5 = (25-60)

Now, obviously doing that kind of damage relies on alot of good rolls, but I thought it would be fun to play around with a 1st level Fighter.

Jasdoif
2007-04-18, 06:57 PM
Cows are 10gp each, as indicated on the trade goods table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#tableTradeGoods).

the_tick_rules
2007-04-18, 08:34 PM
level 1 deity.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-04-18, 09:44 PM
I'm pretty sure even Divine Ranks 0 puts in SOME sort of LA, so I don't think that'd quite work. O_o

Person_Man
2007-04-18, 09:56 PM
People have probably seen this so many times that its boring at this point:

1st level human Cleric, Undeath and Planning domains.

Undeath grants Extra Turning as a bonus feat.
Planning grants Extend Spell as a bonus feat.
1st level feat is Persistent spell (which requires Extend Spell)
Human feat is Divine Metamagic, which lets you burn Turn Undead uses to lower metamagic level adjustment.

Cast Lessor Vigor and make it Persistent. You now have Fast Healing 1, all day, at 1st level. If you're allowed flaws, use the extra feats to get Extra Turning twice more. Persist Spiritual Weapon or whatever else you want.

Now that is an overpowered 1st level build. Warlock 1 is pretty meh, no matter what tactics you use.

JaronK
2007-04-18, 11:15 PM
People have probably seen this so many times that its boring at this point:

1st level human Cleric, Undeath and Planning domains.

Undeath grants Extra Turning as a bonus feat.
Planning grants Extend Spell as a bonus feat.
1st level feat is Persistent spell (which requires Extend Spell)
Human feat is Divine Metamagic, which lets you burn Turn Undead uses to lower metamagic level adjustment.

Cast Lessor Vigor and make it Persistent. You now have Fast Healing 1, all day, at 1st level. If you're allowed flaws, use the extra feats to get Extra Turning twice more. Persist Spiritual Weapon or whatever else you want.

Now that is an overpowered 1st level build. Warlock 1 is pretty meh, no matter what tactics you use.

Also, illegal. You can't persist touch spells, which Lesser Vigor is. Mass Lesser Vivor works, but that's a 3rd level spell.

I actually thought of that same cattle idea this morning, but the board slowed down horribly so I couldn't post it. Still, it's a good plan. The downside is that all the cattle have to move at once to stampede, so they'd probably have to act on one initiative, giving your opponent a chance to do something before they hit, meaning a character might be able to take out the wizard before the cattle can move. Also, if this is an arena fight, those cows are going to stampede around in circles and kill each other and the wizard too, which is a problem. Still, it's a heck of a lot of damage for a level 1.

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-18, 11:20 PM
Hasn't CustServ ruled that you can persist Touch spells? It was either only on yourself or on anyone, I forget which.

JaronK
2007-04-18, 11:24 PM
That would be a change from what I've seen before. Last I'd heard, they'd removed touch spells from the list. You could pull it off with the right combination of feats though... I think it involved turning the touch spell into a static ranged ray, then persisting it. Anyway, not open to a level 1 character.

JaronK

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-19, 12:11 AM
Touch spells are not persistable. The FRCS errata says,



p. 37, Persistent Spell:
Second sentence Change: "Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged."
To "Spells of instantaneous duration, spells with a range of touch, and spells whose effects are discharged cannot be affected by this feat."

Which is too bad. I wish they were.

And I've yet to see a trick that brought touch spells within the rule. (Is there a 'static ranged ray'? Aren't all rays variable ranged? That is, is there a ray that can only touch people at exactly x feet? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Even the Archmage's arcane reach, which the commonly cited way to turn a touch spell into a ray spell, doesn't actually do that (it just allows use of a touch spell at range with a ranged touch attack and says "up to 30 feet away" or something to that effect anyway.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-19, 12:19 AM
Use Aforementioned DMM Persist cheeze with Sanctuary. Now the dogs need a Will save vs obnoxious DC just to be able to attack Cleric. Cleric walks up and smacks down Wizard, then puts it back up.

Next.

JaronK
2007-04-19, 12:50 AM
Cleric is still surrounded by dogs... and only one needs to pass that will save to take him down. What's the save DC, and what are the chances that all 8 will fail it? And once the cleric is completely surrounded by the 8 dogs, how is he walking up to the Wizard?

JaronK

JaronK
2007-04-19, 12:53 AM
And I've yet to see a trick that brought touch spells within the rule. (Is there a 'static ranged ray'? Aren't all rays variable ranged? That is, is there a ray that can only touch people at exactly x feet? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Even the Archmage's arcane reach, which the commonly cited way to turn a touch spell into a ray spell, doesn't actually do that (it just allows use of a touch spell at range with a ranged touch attack and says "up to 30 feet away" or something to that effect anyway.)

Since I haven't played a character who has actually used DMM:P, I couldn't tell you for sure, but I believe ray spells with a range of X' exactly count for Persistant Spell, and you can use a metamagic feat to turn Touch Spells into Ray Spells with a range of 60' (I think). Something like that.

Anyway, still out of the question for a level 1 character... and even if it were legal, the dogs still run over them (and the cattle do it more literally!).

JaronK

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-19, 12:56 AM
Ocular Spell is the feat in question.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-19, 01:58 AM
Cleric is still surrounded by dogs... and only one needs to pass that will save to take him down. What's the save DC, and what are the chances that all 8 will fail it? And once the cleric is completely surrounded by the 8 dogs, how is he walking up to the Wizard?

JaronK

Just one attacking him won't kill him in a single turn. Particularly not if he's clanking in some armor so the dog doesn't have a good chance of hitting him.

It's a first level spell, so the save DC would be 10+ 1 (level of spell) + Casting Stat. So you're looking at something like 14-15 DC save. Base Riding Dogs have a will save of +1. You'd need to roll a 14+ on a D20... good luck with that. If he grabs a flaw to get Spell Focus, it goes up even higher.

And either all the dogs are massed around the Wizard, and thus the Sorc build can hit them all with a Color Spray, or they're spread out, and the Cleric can press through to get to the Wizard. Take your pick.

JaronK
2007-04-19, 02:14 AM
The cleric gets attacked by two dogs (since 1/4 of them will pass), assuming your Cleric has an 18 in wisdom... which means of course his strength isn't very high, so you might have trouble with the Wizard's AC (which is about 18, depending on available stats). Two dogs, both trying to hit with their very respectable to hit score, and if they do hit your cleric gets tripped (again, his strength is low, and theirs is 19). Your cleric is now on the ground, surrounded by dogs.

How exactly do you plan to hurt the wizard from there... especially since the wizard has no need to get close to you?

The dogs are not massed around the wizard. They would start out slightly spread out... a few in front of the wizard, a few to the side, etc, each about 10' from any other dog. Then they charge in, and surround the victem, who is at this point on the ground, and any attempt to stand provokes attacks of opportunity.

Seriously though, you keep throwing out these "I win" ideas that don't work. How about this: Let's chose an appropriate stat array (elite array would be appropriate, or maybe 28 point buy?) and actually play it out, shall we? I'll make the wizard, as I've already shown, and you can make whatever level 1 character you want (though preferably not a wizard using the same trick). You can even design him with full knowledge of what you'll be fighting.

We can set up an appropriate dueling ground... let's say a 100'X100' arena, with the combatants starting 50' away from each other, 25' from the sides? Nice flat open arena where you can do what you want.

We can even use forum rolls. Then you can see how your plan works.

JaronK

Armads
2007-04-19, 02:37 AM
Venerable Kobold Commoner 1
2 meaningless flaws
Feats:Skill focus (craft Weaponsmithing), Dragonwrought, Dragon Wings
Abilities of Note: Int 18
Thats a +11 to craft (weaponsmithing) (+4 ability mod, +4 ranks, +3 skill focus)
the DC is 12 to craft a simple weapon.

Start from higher ground (like on a cliff face)
Jump off the cliff face, but make sure you stay in the air
After that, craft a Colossal quarterstaff (DC 12, takes 0 time due to 0 cost) and drop it on whatever you're fighting. Craft it again (0 time). And again. And again. If the quarterstaff hits, you'll have inflicted damage from dropping a 64 pound load on his head. Repeat until he dies. You cannot miss due to the sheer number of quarterstaves falling on his head (chances are, you'll roll a nat 20 and crit for incredible damage).

RiOrius
2007-04-19, 02:52 AM
Warning: sketchy rules knowledge may be contained in this post.

So, start with the Wizard and sell your spellbook. Use the money to buy a Wand of Fireball (CL 10) with a single charge (full wand takes 22,500 GP, so a single charge is a mere 450 GP). You can, of course, cast the spell with no problem, since it's on your spell list. Throw in Improved Init and high Dex (only need 13 Int), hope to win the initiative, and use your single Fireball wisely.

...so, what'd I mess up, rules-wise?

JaronK
2007-04-19, 03:56 AM
I think that works, actually. Most likely it won't beat the kenel wizard, just because you're unlikely to beat the initiative of all the dogs, and it really only takes one to take down a first level wizard (or any character at first level, honestly). With that said, if you managed to roll a 20 on your initiative score, you should be okay. Of course, the dogs could still eat you, but I think if you blow up the wizard we can call it a win.

But yeah, the basic concept of "wizard who sells their overpriced spellbook and gets rediculous gear to win" is the main way to win at first level.

JaronK

Skjaldbakka
2007-04-19, 04:05 AM
Play any of the classes that get good gold, and buy a horse. It is better than a 1st level character, plus- you can try to do stuff!

Vik
2007-04-19, 04:08 AM
No. It appleis to every level 0 spell published on any wizard spell list in any 3.5 book. Just like clerics get access to all spells in all books that are on their class look in any of those books.If you really want to be litteral, why limit yourself to published spells ? Every single spell of level 0 must be in your spellbook.
So you'll have every home-made spells, by every wizard in the multiverse, even if they never allowed anyone to copy them. Woohoo, my spellbook have an infinite number of pages !

Ikkitosen
2007-04-19, 06:23 AM
Ok, so no selling spellbooks anymore people, it opens up too many sillinesses. Is a druid with a companion doggy and some bought doggies the way to go? Or a max initiative wizard with save-or-lose spells? Something else?

daggaz
2007-04-19, 06:40 AM
Venerable Kobold Commoner 1
2 meaningless flaws
Feats:Skill focus (craft Weaponsmithing), Dragonwrought, Dragon Wings
Abilities of Note: Int 18
Thats a +11 to craft (weaponsmithing) (+4 ability mod, +4 ranks, +3 skill focus)
the DC is 12 to craft a simple weapon.

Start from higher ground (like on a cliff face)
Jump off the cliff face, but make sure you stay in the air
After that, craft a Colossal quarterstaff (DC 12, takes 0 time due to 0 cost) and drop it on whatever you're fighting. Craft it again (0 time). And again. And again. If the quarterstaff hits, you'll have inflicted damage from dropping a 64 pound load on his head. Repeat until he dies. You cannot miss due to the sheer number of quarterstaves falling on his head (chances are, you'll roll a nat 20 and crit for incredible damage).

Bleh. Do you honestly expect the average DM to allow this twinky kind of interpretation of the RAW?

1. Quarterstaffs have zero cost, because the material component (a long piece of wood) is so abundant it is basically worthless and can be had for free. NOTE: You still need to have the materials at hand. Or have a spell which creates them and is thus, not limitless.

2. 0 time is an approximation.. .as in, 'How much time out of your day does it take to make this thing?' Answer: relatively none. It still takes some time, you couldn't do it forever, and even if the RAW were set in stone (thank god its not), I would still argue that you get limited in much the same way as you get limited with the number of free actions you can take per round. IE only as many as the DM deems reasonable.

3. Almost forgot to mention... not only do you need a bad DM for this to work, you need a cliff nearby to all of your enemies, as well as the ability to always be standing on top of it when the battle starts. laugh, overpowered? Not hardly.

namo
2007-04-19, 09:17 AM
But there are LA +0 races with flight : anthropomorphic bat/raven ! (Savage Species, so 3.0, but I think they still stand as is)

I suppose that's advantageous for mages with Precocious Apprentice + Fiery Burst (or was this one disproved ?) or warlocks - except that those races have Cha penalties.

They are certainly not the ultimate answer, but I think they defeat the dogs and their wizard familiar.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-19, 09:24 AM
Bleh. Do you honestly expect the average DM to allow this twinky kind of interpretation of the RAW?

1. Quarterstaffs have zero cost, because the material component (a long piece of wood) is so abundant it is basically worthless and can be had for free. NOTE: You still need to have the materials at hand. Or have a spell which creates them and is thus, not limitless.

2. 0 time is an approximation.. .as in, 'How much time out of your day does it take to make this thing?' Answer: relatively none. It still takes some time, you couldn't do it forever, and even if the RAW were set in stone (thank god its not), I would still argue that you get limited in much the same way as you get limited with the number of free actions you can take per round. IE only as many as the DM deems reasonable.

3. Almost forgot to mention... not only do you need a bad DM for this to work, you need a cliff nearby to all of your enemies, as well as the ability to always be standing on top of it when the battle starts. laugh, overpowered? Not hardly.

It works, by RAW.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-19, 09:40 AM
Gah! I was going to suggest this.

Swiftwing Shifter Rogue with high CON + DEX (say 18 and 16, with 30 point buy). Bow or somesuch. 2 meaningless flaws, 3 shifter feats. Can fly 30ft (good) for 20 rounds/day. Could sneak attack (or just fly high up and drop stuff - if I was to swap dex with con, I could carry a 201lb block of stuff up 300 feat for my first bit of flying, then fall 150ft, then activate it again for 450ft total, then drop a block to deal 20d6 damage).

Person_Man
2007-04-19, 11:22 AM
Venerable Kobold Commoner 1
2 meaningless flaws
Feats:Skill focus (craft Weaponsmithing), Dragonwrought, Dragon Wings
Abilities of Note: Int 18
Thats a +11 to craft (weaponsmithing) (+4 ability mod, +4 ranks, +3 skill focus)
the DC is 12 to craft a simple weapon.

I seem to remember some sort of cheese around age. You can make a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, give yourself +3 to all mental stats, but not gain any penalties to physical stats because of your Dragon type. Perfect for Kobold Druids.

I'm not a 100% on the source though. It might be some cheese out the Draconomicon instead.

jameswilliamogle
2007-04-19, 11:35 AM
Don't know if these have been mentioned yet, sry if it has:

14 Cha, 14 Wis, Warlock, Summon Swarm, Darkspeech (from Fiendish Codex, not BOVD), uses Bats at L1 to make a L30 Sorcerer, then makes that Sorcerer give you a Dominate Monster Staff via Wish, then summons a Hellwasp Swarm that you Dominate then turn into a Hivemind for a L80+ Sorcerer (with all the Wishes, etc).

Pun-Pun trumps it, but its in the same category as him for pure campaign-smashiness.


Super Tank:
Human Binder L1 w/ Improved Binding, Dodge, at least 12 Dex, Binds Savnok, uses Call Armor to get regular Full-Plate and uses a Heavy Steal Shield for a 22 AC at 1st level.


Super Sleuth:
Again, Human Binder L1 w/ Improved Binding and anything. Binds Malphus and uses Bird's-Eye-Viewing to spy ANYWHERE: there is NO RANGE LIMIT.

EDIT: also, there's the commoner w/ mercantile background, skill focus handle animal, max ranks handle animal, that has 200 bison stampede his enemies for a ton of damage every round.

GMBeowulf
2007-04-19, 06:05 PM
You know, I read through this, and I was thinking, "Any slightly intelligent DM would disallow the magebred dogs trick"...and then I realized that, no, I wouldn't. I'd let a player do that, then make them suffer for their folly. The very first adventure would involve places he couldn't bring the dogs, places he couldn't control the dogs, and a nasty encounter that will eat the dogs (preferably while the party escaped). Then he'll discover that no other wizard will talk to him, much less let him study or scribe spells, because he threw away his spellbook at turned his back on wizardom. Perhaps he can buy one back in a level or two, when he acquires 5,000 GP. Or perhaps he can start a new class, with only +2 Will saves and 4 HP to show for his career as a wizard.

The player in question would hate me. The rest of the party would inevitably find it hilarious. Oooo, evil DMing.

Manir
2007-04-20, 04:28 AM
3. Almost forgot to mention... not only do you need a bad DM for this to work, you need a cliff nearby to all of your enemies, as well as the ability to always be standing on top of it when the battle starts. laugh, overpowered? Not hardly.
Technically, if you created an infinite amount of quarterstaves, you would create a black hole, considering it's immense mass.

Whamme
2007-04-20, 05:03 AM
You know, I read through this, and I was thinking, "Any slightly intelligent DM would disallow the magebred dogs trick"...and then I realized that, no, I wouldn't. I'd let a player do that, then make them suffer for their folly. The very first adventure would involve places he couldn't bring the dogs, places he couldn't control the dogs, and a nasty encounter that will eat the dogs (preferably while the party escaped). Then he'll discover that no other wizard will talk to him, much less let him study or scribe spells, because he threw away his spellbook at turned his back on wizardom. Perhaps he can buy one back in a level or two, when he acquires 5,000 GP. Or perhaps he can start a new class, with only +2 Will saves and 4 HP to show for his career as a wizard.

The player in question would hate me. The rest of the party would inevitably find it hilarious. Oooo, evil DMing.

Actually, apart from how apparently overpowering the dogs are, this is a fairly cool character concept. Especially if they take Spell Mastery for a few spells and then change classes...

It's sort of like splashing a level of sorceror, only you're using INT instead so you get skills.

I mean, there is something pretty cool about an apprentice wizard who gives up Magic for raising a pack of wolves. :smallcool:

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-20, 05:27 AM
Yeah, it'd be an awesome segue into ranger or druid.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-20, 05:42 AM
Technically, if you created an infinite amount of quarterstaves, you would create a black hole, considering it's immense mass.

There's no way they're dense enough though - they'd never collapse under their own gravity to form a singularity.

daggaz
2007-04-20, 06:51 AM
It works, by RAW.

Umm... no, it doesn't. You need the crafting materials on hand to craft, always. Where is he getting an infinite supply of wooden sticks to shape into quarterstaves here? He's not.

Armads
2007-04-20, 07:50 AM
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the DC from the table below.
3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
So, you find the items, price, then put the price in sp (0), find the DC (12), and then pay (0).

Important thing is: You find the price, the DC, and then you pay. Since you need to pay nothing. You don't actually need to BUY the thing. You just need to pay.

Sorry if that didn't make sense. Here's another way:
Get a ring of power word: kill once per eternity. (cost 0)
Get another ring of foresight once per eternity. (cost 0)
Now you just need to find the wizard and kill him with the ring.

Zincorium
2007-04-20, 08:03 AM
So, you find the items, price, then put the price in sp (0), find the DC (12), and then pay (0).

Important thing is: You find the price, the DC, and then you pay. Since you need to pay nothing. You don't actually need to BUY the thing. You just need to pay.

Sorry if that didn't make sense. Here's another way:
Get a ring of power word: kill once per eternity. (cost 0)
Get another ring of foresight once per eternity. (cost 0)
Now you just need to find the wizard and kill him with the ring.

Yeah...I seriously doubt that a one charge (regardless of time period) item of that magnitude is going to be even close to 0.

Armads
2007-04-20, 10:48 AM
On Command: 1800xspell levelxcaster level
Charges per day: Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
Since 'eternity' is infinite, thats effectively 0.00000000000000001 charges per day
5 divided by 0.000000000001 is about 500000000000
do you really think it can't be close to 0?