Looking for help with my Gish Build

[Spectre9000]

So as it stands now this is my progression:

Dwarf

Fighter 1
Dodge, Two-Weapon Fighting

Wizard 1-2 (Domain: Transmutation)
Mobility

Runesmith 1-2

Swiftblade 1-9
Metamagic: Extend
Metamagic: Persist Spell
Combat Casting

Abjurant Champion 1-4
Easy Metamagic (Metamagic: Persist Spell) or if not allowed by my DM Spell Focus(Transmutation) for prereq to Metamagic School Focus(Transmutation).
?? Feat (Possibly Versatile Spell Caster) or Metamagic School Focus(Transmutation)

?? 2

This build is designed around Two Weapon Fighting as a Gish. It has at later levels Wraithstrike and Haste Persisted, though other persists are possible and likely. At level 18 this build has 16 BAB, and 14 Wizard Class Levels for spell slots giving 7th level spells. For the final two levels I have to take a class that gives me spell casting class levels so I can get 8th level spell slots, so I'm thinking any 2 combination of levels from he following for my final two levels: Dragonslayer, Paragnostic Apostle, or Abjurant Champion(only 1 level left).

For my Weapons, I'm looking at going with a Dwarven Urgrosh since it's martial (Racial), a double weapon, and I can ready it against a charge. I want Spellstore and Bloodstone enhancements on both ends. I plan on going Heavy Armor(pref Mithril, though since I'm a Dwarf and Hasted, I can opt for other materials possibly). I also plan on bolstering my defenses with spells such as shield, mage armor, and Luminous Armor.

I'm looking for help seeing any flaws in my builds, and suggestions for the final two levels. Also, could someone please explain how my familiar (or possibly Animal Companion) would work with me not taking more than 2 levels of Wizard, but boosting it via prestige classes? I'm trying to determine how I can use it, or if I might need to substitute it.


Thanks for the help, and first time posting!


P.S. Rules as far as I've been told are any material published directly by Wizards of the Coast for 3.5. No Homebrew. Flaws I'm also unsure on.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Two Weapon Fighting is only really worth it if you can spare the feats to get at least ITWF and have some way to get bonus damage that benefits from your higher number of attacks.
Since your build has neither you're probably better off going with a two-handed style.

I'm not really seeing where your damage is supposed to come from anyway. You don't have Power Attack or Arcane Strike, which are two of the more mainstream options for gish-damage.
Getting a whole lot of attacks doesn't help much if they're all only doing single-digit damage.
TWFers usually rely on sneak attack, skirmish and/or things like Craven and Shadow Blade for damage, which your build really hasn't the room for.

Since you're spending a lot of feats on metamagic you'd probably be best served with Power Attack and a twohanded weapon. That's pretty much the cheapest way to deal physical damage, resource-wise.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If he can spare a feat for TWF, then ITWF is just an item away (Gloves of the balanced hand), for damage Swiftblade gives a pseudo-skirmish and he should have enough movement spells to trigger it, finally I'm a really big fan of Ferocity of the Sanguine Rage (Wiz 3 Dragon Magic), which gives CL/2 as morale bonus to damage (not that useful if there is a non-dfi bard in the party).

[sleepyphoenixx]

If he can spare a feat for TWF, then ITWF is just an item away (Gloves of the balanced hand), for damage Swiftblade gives a pseudo-skirmish and he should have enough movement spells to trigger it, finally I'm a really big fan of Ferocity of the Sanguine Rage (Wiz 3 Dragon Magic), which gives CL/2 as morale bonus to damage (not that useful if there is a non-dfi bard in the party).

Sure, that works. If you can get FotSR persisted, because you really don't want to waste your first round every combat on buffing. Getting pretty much everything you need from your auto-quickened Haste is one of Swiftblades big selling points after all.
The pseudo-skirmish is really only useful as an additional source of bonus damage. It's not really enough to rely on as your sole source of it. You'll also need to move to activate it, which doesn't work that well with full attacks, which you'll need to get full benefit from TWF. Sure, there are ways around it, but that brings me to the next point.

Spring Attack/Bounding Assault don't care about TWFing. You get 1 or 2 attacks, regardless of how many weapons you wield. Again, the mobility is a big selling point and you're basically getting them free, so it's a consideration.
You also get access to the Bite of the WereX line with its big strength boni, which benefits a two handed style more than TWF.

All in all the class lends itself much better to a few big hits than lots of smaller ones.


It remains a fact that TWF is something you specifically have to build for to make it competitive. Getting damage on par with a two-handed user who spends a single feat on Power Attack requires a big investment of feats and levels, something that really doesn't work well with a build this featstarved.
Not that you can't make it work if you want to for fluff reasons or whatever, but it's always going to be an uphill battle. Unless the OP is married to the idea going for the 2h solution is a lot simpler.

[Spectre9000]

I was depending on being able to push spells through my weapons using Spell Store and the fact that at level 9 Swiftblade I'll get one standard/move action in addition to a full attack as a class feat. You say I'd need more attacks to make it viable, but I'll be getting 6 attacks (4 from BAB, 1 from off-hand, and 1 from Haste). How many do you need?

I would certainly love to keep this as a TWF build, given I enjoy the idea of a Dual Wielding Master Spellcaster for fluff. However, if it's significantly better to use THF, then so be it. I love Dual Wield, but not if I'm having to work my butt off for it to just be viable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Runesmith in Races of Stone requires Craft (Stoneworking) 8 ranks, the minimum level to have 8 ranks in a class skill is 5th, so you can't start taking Runesmith until your 6th character level. I honestly don't see why you're using that if you plan to have (Greater) Luminous Armor instead of wearing armor.

Only your Wizard class levels, not +1 level prestige classes, will advance your familiar or an animal companion if you use that alternative. It would be best to just substitute it out, and if you still want a familiar get the feat Obtain Familiar in CA which also counts your prestige class levels, along with Improved Familiar.

Your best source of damage, especially with Wraithstrike, is going to be Power Attack, so your best course of action is going to be a two-handed weapon. If starting out in the early levels, you'll get a lot more use out of Combat Reflexes and a martial reach weapon such as a glaive over TWF. If you insist on using TWF, then use a two-handed primary weapon and use armor spikes to make your offhand attacks.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sure, that works. If you can get FotSR persisted, because you really don't want to waste your first round every combat on buffing. Getting pretty much everything you need from your auto-quickened Haste is one of Swiftblades big selling points after all.
The pseudo-skirmish is really only useful as an additional source of bonus damage. It's not really enough to rely on as your sole source of it. You'll also need to move to activate it, which doesn't work that well with full attacks, which you'll need to get full benefit from TWF. Sure, there are ways around it, but that brings me to the next point.

Spring Attack/Bounding Assault don't care about TWFing. You get 1 or 2 attacks, regardless of how many weapons you wield. Again, the mobility is a big selling point and you're basically getting them free, so it's a consideration.
You also get access to the Bite of the WereX line with its big strength boni, which benefits a two handed style more than TWF.

All in all the class lends itself much better to a few big hits than lots of smaller ones.


It remains a fact that TWF is something you specifically have to build for to make it competitive. Getting damage on par with a two-handed user who spends a single feat on Power Attack requires a big investment of feats and levels, something that really doesn't work well with a build this featstarved.
Not that you can't make it work if you want to for fluff reasons or whatever, but it's always going to be an uphill battle. Unless the OP is married to the idea going for the 2h solution is a lot simpler.

Oh I agree that TWF is not optimal and that THF is strictly better, I just mentioned that for the sake of being thorough.

[Spectre9000]

Runesmith in Races of Stone requires Craft (Stoneworking) 8 ranks, the minimum level to have 8 ranks in a class skill is 5th, so you can't start taking Runesmith until your 6th character level. I honestly don't see why you're using that if you plan to have (Greater) Luminous Armor instead of wearing armor.

I said I would be going with Heavy Armor... Also, Craft is a class skill, so starts with 4, then 2 from the wizard levels, then 2 from Dwarf racial for stonework.


Only your Wizard class levels, not +1 level prestige classes, will advance your familiar or an animal companion if you use that alternative. It would be best to just substitute it out, and if you still want a familiar get the feat Obtain Familiar in CA which also counts your prestige class levels, along with Improved Familiar.

That's a little disheartening that a feat is more powerful than a class staple.


Your best source of damage, especially with Wraithstrike, is going to be Power Attack, so your best course of action is going to be a two-handed weapon. If starting out in the early levels, you'll get a lot more use out of Combat Reflexes and a martial reach weapon such as a glaive over TWF. If you insist on using TWF, then use a two-handed primary weapon and use armor spikes to make your offhand attacks.
That seems to be what everyone is saying, though I don't quite get why I would want Combat Reflexes, plus I only have 1 feat, not two; I can't take both Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. Also, don't you have to grapple in order to use armor spikes?

[Hiro Quester]

If you learn Heriocs spell (level 2 wizard, 10 mins/level) and have extend spell feat, then a couple or four extended spells per day will get you the fighter feats you need (more or selective castings at higher levels).

Or you can take TWF and use heroics to add GTWF, ITWF, etc.

Or try Power Attack for a day or two and see how well it works in practice.

My last character was a bard/sublime chord gish-type (not quite the BAB for full gish) who used heroics to gain a couple of fighter feats each day.

I'd recommend the fast and zippy TWF option especially if you have a bard in your party with inspire courage boosts to your to-hit and damage, and Dragonfire Inspiration, for the sweet extra d6s damage to every attack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I said I would be going with Heavy Armor... Also, Craft is a class skill, so starts with 4, then 2 from the wizard levels, then 2 from Dwarf racial for stonework.

That's a little disheartening that a feat is more powerful than a class staple.

That seems to be what everyone is saying, though I don't quite get why I would want Combat Reflexes, plus I only have 1 feat, not two; I can't take both Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. Also, don't you have to grapple in order to use armor spikes?

Dwarf doesn't add skill ranks, it just adds a bonus to your skill checks. It's not the same thing. "A character’s number of ranks in a skill is based on how many skill points a character has invested in a skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm)." The most ranks you can have in a skill is your character level +3, so the minimum level to get 8 ranks is 5th level.

A feat costs a feat, which is fairly steep. Many of the ACFs that replace your familiar are considerably more powerful than the familiar, such as Abrupt Jaunt for Conjurers.

"You can outfit your armor with spikes, which can deal damage in a grapple or as a separate attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#spikedArmor)." Armor spikes are a normal light melee weapon, that you happen to also be able to use in a grapple.

[Rebel7284]

With swiftblade builds, I am a very big advocate of the following

Elf Wizard 6/Swiftblade 3/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +6/Abjurant Champion 4

Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge
3. Combat Casting
<buy armor of mobility>
6. Endurance
9. Extend Spell
12. Persistent Spell

You don't really need runesmith to run around in armor. Combine mithral, twilight, feycraft, and thistledown padding to get your armor to 0 arcane spell failure.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With swiftblade builds, I am a very big advocate of the following

Elf Wizard 6/Swiftblade 3/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +6/Abjurant Champion 4

Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge
3. Combat Casting
<buy armor of mobility>
6. Endurance
9. Extend Spell
12. Persistent Spell

You don't really need runesmith to run around in armor. Combine mithral, twilight, feycraft, and thistledown padding to get your armor to 0 arcane spell failure.

This is pretty much the gold standard level build for a swiftblade gish, but go with this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get (Expeditious) Dodge and Mobility (or Power Attack with mobility armor) from your Wizard bonus feats. In that case you can get Persistent Spell by 9th level, and can Spelldance your buffs to last all day.

[Rubik]

Instead of Dodge, Mobility, AND Spring Attack, just go for Flyby Attack and ensure you can fly -- through Alter Self, if nothing else. Then get Midnight Dodge or Expeditious Dodge, since both fill the prereq for swiftblade, and nab Mobility as an armor quality (which should have 0 ASF, of course).

[Endarire]

A Dragonborn Fire Elf (yes, such things exist) with the Wings aspect of Dragonborn can take Flyby Attack for a psuedo-Spring Attack effect.

I'm also curious why you're so interested in going Wizard gish with heavy armor. You could probably use greater luminous armor (Book of Exalted Deeds) with polymorph and perhaps wraithstrike/Power Attack on a non-Gish Wizard for a similar effect and more spell access besides.

[Lerondiel]

This is pretty much the gold standard level build for a swiftblade gish, but go with this Wizard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) to get (Expeditious) Dodge and Mobility (or Power Attack with mobility armor) from your Wizard bonus feats. In that case you can get Persistent Spell by 9th level, and can Spelldance your buffs to last all day.

Has there much debate about sacrificing both of the last two Swiftblade levels & abilities vs +4 AC and Arcane Boost from Ab Champ?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Has there much debate about sacrificing both of the last two Swiftblade levels & abilities vs +4 AC and Arcane Boost from Ab Champ?

If you don't take Swiftblade 9 there really isn't any point in going beyond Swiftblade 6. You lose another CL at level 7, and the ability that makes it worth it is Perpetual Options.
Sure, getting Freedom of Movement and a (mediocre) bonus feat it nice, but that's not worth losing caster progression.
Quitting after Swiftblade 7 or 8 is a pretty bad decision because of that.

The pseudo-timestop of level 10 is also nice, but taking it means you lose out on 9th level spells before epic, so most people pass on it.

[Spectre9000]

How do you plan to keep the spelldancer from getting exhausted from dancing away all those 6 level increases? I like the idea of level 9 spells.

Also, can Neraphim become Dragonborn?


In addition, for Dwarf taking Runesmith early, I can simply use Skill Focus(Craft(Stoneworking)) then retrain it at level 5.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How do you plan to keep the spelldancer from getting exhausted from dancing away all those 6 level increases? I like the idea of level 9 spells.

Also, can Neraphim become Dragonborn?


Also, for Dwarf taking Runesmith early, I can simply use Skill Focus(Craft(Stoneworking)) then retrain it at level 5.

There's a regional feat in PGtF called Tireless that makes you immune to becoming fatigued. You never have to worry about spelldancing too long with that, though the Con damage can be troublesome. You can take Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest and keep one essentia invested into it to reduce the Con damage by two points each time it happens, so you never have any drawback to excessive spelldancing.


Skill focus does not give you ranks, it just adds a bonus to your check. The only way to get skill ranks is to spend skill points, and the max skill points you can have spent in a skill is your level +3. There's no alternative to that or any way around it short of somehow gaining extra levels or hit dice.

[Hiro Quester]

How do you plan to keep the spelldancer from getting exhausted from dancing away all those 6 level increases? I like the idea of level 9 spells.

Or just buy and UMD (or give to party cleric) a wand of lesser restoration.

[Rubik]

Skill focus does not give you ranks, it just adds a bonus to your check. The only way to get skill ranks is to spend skill points, and the max skill points you can have spent in a skill is your level +3. There's no alternative to that or any way around it short of somehow gaining extra levels or hit dice.There are a few ways to get ranks above your HD cap, such as bloodlines, the Primary Contact feat, and Inspire Greatness + Psychic Reformation.

[Rebel7284]

<snip>There's no alternative to that or any way around it short of somehow gaining extra levels or hit dice.

There are a FEW ways actually.
- Primary Contact feat allows you to go one over on one skill. Has crappy feat as prereq too.
- The Codex Anathema item in Lords of Madness gives you 5 ranks of Knowledge (dungeoneering), 2 ranks of
Knowledge (arcana), and 2 ranks of Knowledge (the planes).

If you do want a temporary way to gain hit dice, you can contact lycanthrapy and take the class you want until it self-qualifies (at which point you just cast remove curse and make a DC20 will save.)

[Spectre9000]

There's a regional feat in PGtF called Tireless that makes you immune to becoming fatigued. You never have to worry about spelldancing too long with that, though the Con damage can be troublesome. You can take Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest and keep one essentia invested into it to reduce the Con damage by two points each time it happens, so you never have any drawback to excessive spelldancing.


Does this only apply to the few races listed there? Or can any other race gain that feat?


Also, can you simply reduce some of the levels of a spell, or do you have to try for the entirey of it? For instance, Persist adds 6 levels to a spell. Can I dance only 2 of those levels away, or do I need to do the full 6?


Is a Dragonborn Neraphim Lycanthrope possible?