Dangers of High Stat array?

[Thatwarforged]

So what dangers is there to giving a group a large stat array? Something like 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12.
What do you normally do for ability scores? Roll? Array? Point-buy?

[Zanos]

The monk might be in danger of being relevant. :smalltongue:

The biggest danger of high universal stats is people finding multiple ways to add stats to the same things to send their bonuses sky high. In normal play, most classes only get serious use out of 2-3 ability scores anyway, so having high stats that you don't use isn't a huge deal in terms of balance. The way D&D is built also pretty much ensures that unless you specialize in something it's probably not going to be useful in CR appropriate encounters.

I generally use point buy myself. Rolling leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Angelmaker]

I generally use point buy myself. Rolling leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

What Zanos said, zhis in particular. I have been in games though where the GM allowed 42 point buy.

Since you still cannot buy more than an 18 in one stat, it just makes hybrid options a bit better. Mystic theurges for example like having two high caster stats.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Me and my group actually have our own system. Mix of point buy / roll. Amount of points buyable are based off of which tier of class is being played. Also requires us to somewhat preplan our builds so we know someone isn't going Tier trashcan to cap his stats then going into a higher tier class that could greatly use 3-4 capped stats. It's made monks somewhat playable actually and I've enjoyed the one I've used under it. The roll chunk is just 1d6 points on top of the buy. *shrug* that was added because the guy who made it understood the need of higher stats for MAD classes to even be playable but disliked removing the RNG aspect of rolling for stats which he rather liked. I don't have it written in front of me but it was either tier 4 and lower or 5 that we allowed to actually go to 20 instead of 18 cap.

So all I can say is make sure you're not letting the wizard have an 18 int, dex and Con (which would help him decently with the not dying until he's god) but high stat arrays can severely help the less played classes.

[Theomniadept]

Speaking seriously, high stats do nothing but allow access to more classes. No, I don't mean prestige classes.

The Paladin has to have high STR, CON, and CHA, with at least 14 WIS. What's a stat array of all 18's gonna give him? Well, he'll be operating at full power. What's a 16 point buy system give him? Death and uselessness.

A wizard on 16 point buy has 18 INT and thus operates at his standard level of god-power. A wizard with all 18's....has more HP and better saves and operates slightly better in some possible areas on the spectrum of god-powers.

See the difference? When you have a lot of ability scores that need upkeep, high starting amounts are necessary. And the only classes that need these are the underpowered ones. SO no, don't nerf the players' stat arrays just because a bunch of pluses look intimidating. You can always toss in more monsters. You can't nerf monsters effectively to make the party useful.

[Endarire]

I was tempted to just start all PCs with a base of 18 in every stat to see how things change.

Really, the main difference between an 8 and an 18 is a +5. That's 1/4 of a d20. An 18 also allows more accuracy and damage, more skill points, higher saves, more HP, and all-around better access to survival and life - if you as GM and your group are comfortable with it.

Having GMed for a Paladin in 3.5 who rolled his stats, I felt sorry when I forced him to dump his DEX to 9 just so he could hit hard, be charismatic, and not die like a feather falling off a table due to low HP. Some classes and concepts simply need more stats to be viable.

On the upside, players no longer feel so pressured to make super-optimal character choices when making characters, nor are they immediately punished for making 'subpar' ones. Monks, Paladins, and more classes (especially MAD or multiple attribute dependent) classes are a lot more viable.

Potential downsides? These include the notion that 18 is the new 10. If your group is bothered by everyone having the same stats, this solution isn't for you. Also, Monster Manual and preprinted creatures assume, in general, a 4 member party each with a 25 point buy. In 3.5, a straight 18 arrangement is a 96 point buy - not that is matters if you want to give more esoteric or/and weaker characters (see 'non-casters') a more fighting chance.

Also, regardless of what people say on the Internet, what works well for your group? People on the net (like us) can theorycraft all day, but it's ultimately your game and your enjoyment. What do you have to say?

[Endarire]

It's also for good reason that in 5E, each class typically needs 3 high(ish) stats to succeed - DEX, CON, and their primary (like CHA for Bards and Sorcerers). Paladins and melee Clerics (and melee casters in general) may need STR, DEX, CON, and their casting stat high.

[Kurald Galain]

So what dangers is there to giving a group a large stat array? Something like 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12.
No danger, but combat gets slightly easier for the PCs. But there's not that big a difference between "large" stats and normal stats, and most characters have a couple stats they basically don't use at all so it doesn't really matter if they get a 5 or a 12 in those. Overall, the impact is pretty low; the optimization ability of your players makes a far bigger difference.


What do you normally do for ability scores? Roll? Array? Point-buy?
Point buy. Rolling takes longer and causes unnecessary arguments.

[Thatwarforged]

Thank you all. So what I am seeing is that having a large Point buy or stat array allows for the less played classes to work and only gives SAD classes a little bit of extra juice. The only danger mentioned then was that the party is a little bit stronger in an encounter. So what point buy totals do you guys use then since it seems to be the one most used?

[Andreaz]

So what point buy totals do you guys use then since it seems to be the one most used?My groups go for 25 point-buy (pf) with every race having a net +4 instead of +2 (most just lose the stat penalty), and far more importantly we use 4e's stat growth (2 different attributes at every 4th level, with levels 8, 16, 24 giving all attributes)

[Ferronach]

I get my players to roll out three sets of 6 using the 4d6 method (roll 4 and use the top 3, re-roll 1s and reroll the fourth if the score is below 10).
They then choose the set that they like best and give it to me (just the numbers not what they will put each into) and tell me the gist of their build.
I then adjust the scores as needed. MAD usually get a bump or two and SAD I try to balance out a bit more without nerfing overly much.
This works well for my groups and every seems to like it as it helps out those who need it.

[Kurald Galain]

Thank you all. So what I am seeing is that having a large Point buy or stat array allows for the less played classes to work and only gives SAD classes a little bit of extra juice. The only danger mentioned then was that the party is a little bit stronger in an encounter. So what point buy totals do you guys use then since it seems to be the one most used?

PFS (the widely played public campaign) uses 20-point buy. Most of our home campaigns use 15-point buy.

[Lerondiel]

From our greater gaming group of 20+ people, some of us have played/DMed a lot of 3.5 and like a high powered campaign while others are more social about it.....for us, a strong set of scores helps the 'part-timers' keep up with their flavoured lower performing builds.

But once you're used to seeing most scores above 15 it's tough to go back :)

[Forrestfire]

A wizard on 16 point buy has 18 INT and thus operates at his standard level of god-power. A wizard with all 18's....has more HP and better saves and operates slightly better in some possible areas on the spectrum of god-powers.

Not only that, but since the wizard has good stats, he's better able to use the wizard strategies that break the game less (especially gishing) than the ones that take your spells and turn them into an I Win button. A wizard with an 18 in Int and decent other stats can be competent in other areas. A wizard with an 18 in Int and nothing else is forced to play a god wizard 100% of the time to be powerful.


In my group, I like to let everyone roll, and anyone can use any of the arrays rolled. If a person doesn't like the arrays, then they can use point-buy instead. The people like me who like to roll stats can be happy (and have a safety net if they roll poorly), and the people who justifiably don't want to roll stats don't have to (but can see if they get lucky anyway).

[SinsI]

Besides some boredom, no danger at all. You can even give everyone all 18 to start with...

[Thatwarforged]

Besides some boredom, no danger at all. You can even give everyone all 18 to start with...

Mind explaining? I can understand that it might cause less weakness to roleplay, but what else?

[goto124]

People RP their stats? :P

But really, RP is so flexible. You can pick up some pre-written flaws, make up your own (without even taking estra feats), heck maybe it doesn't have to be weakness that's RP'd.

[Drork]

Not all stats are created equal across all classes. For example an 18 int caster vs 18 dex for a ray caster. 16s are a lot more manageable than 18s. Also two handed weapons getting 1.5 strength returns on damage just gives you more bang for your buck than other stats, 16 str = + 4 damage 18 str = +6. This has more of an impact on level 1 characters than higher level ones but from my experience dialing down the 18s to 16 so they can use race enhancements to push them up 18 is a lot more manageable as a DM than 18s that go to 20. Also consider level progression pushing stats even higher.

The problem I have found most significant is the power gap between those who optimize vs those that cant or chose not too. You will likely find as a DM you will need to adjust every encounter either with more HP or higher saves to create challenges for your PCs. Also because all stats are not created equal you may find that improving an encounter to make it more suitable for one PC will make it the same or worse for another PC.

[SinsI]

Mind explaining? I can understand that it might cause less weakness to roleplay, but what else?

Normally you have to worry how you distribute your stats, whether you'll be eligible for feat X or PRC Y, whether you'll get enough skill points, etc.
Having all 18 almost completely removes this aspect of the game - and some players might like to have some challenges in meeting some of the requirements. Of course, it becomes completely irrelevant if you use Test-Based Prerequisites rule from Unearthed Arcana (not Pathfinder but still worth it to be adopted into all games).

[Thatwarforged]

Normally you have to worry how you distribute your stats, whether you'll be eligible for feat X or PRC Y, whether you'll get enough skill points, etc.
Having all 18 almost completely removes this aspect of the game - and some players might like to have some challenges in meeting some of the requirements. Of course, it becomes completely irrelevant if you use Test-Based Prerequisites rule from Unearthed Arcana (not Pathfinder but still worth it to be adopted into all games).

I understand this to some degree I have played games were this can be fun, but it also cause some builds to much juggling. I do like test-based prerequisites, I will have to suggest that to my DM.


Not all stats are created equal across all classes. For example an 18 int caster vs 18 dex for a ray caster. 16s are a lot more manageable than 18s. Also two handed weapons getting 1.5 strength returns on damage just gives you more bang for your buck than other stats, 16 str = + 4 damage 18 str = +6. This has more of an impact on level 1 characters than higher level ones but from my experience dialing down the 18s to 16 so they can use race enhancements to push them up 18 is a lot more manageable as a DM than 18s that go to 20. Also consider level progression pushing stats even higher.

The problem I have found most significant is the power gap between those who optimize vs those that cant or chose not too. You will likely find as a DM you will need to adjust every encounter either with more HP or higher saves to create challenges for your PCs. Also because all stats are not created equal you may find that improving an encounter to make it more suitable for one PC will make it the same or worse for another PC.

Well when it comes to optimizing and not optimizing the high ability scores may be an issue but it would definitely not be the main issue, since optimizing even a 20 point buy will yield big differences between them and the folks who did not.


So last question what would you suggest ability score wise for a Gestalt game, should the point buy be increased or not?