How high should my saves be?

[the_archduke]

Thanks to all who commented on my AC thread. My next question is about saves. It has been suggested that saves (especially Fort and Will saves) are more important that AC. For this reason, I am loath to play any class with a bad will save. A level 20 fighter could have a measly +12 will save (+6 base +5 resistance +1 wis). Are there any guidelines as to how high saves need to be for a character not to be hosed by save-or-dies?

[P.F.]

Well spell save DC = 10 + spell level + ability score + misc modifiers, so ballpark you're looking at a max DC of 10 +9 + 10 + 6 = 35. So you'll need a +34 to fail on only a 1, and a +24 total to have even odds of survival; your +12 Will save fighter will get hosed. More realistically, you might look at something like 10 + 7 + 8 + 2 = DC 27, which even your hypothetical fighter could survive about 30% of the time.

[Chilxius]

A lot depends on your campaign and your DM. If you've got a fighter with low Will saves and the DM decides to send in the Thrallherds, there's not much you can do about it; the world has turned against you. The only good defenses against a really cruel world/DM are Paladin or Monk (or one of the 100 strange classes/prestige classes I've never heard of).

Not every character can take on the world by himself, and that's just part of the game. I had a lot of fun with my Swashbuckler whose Will save was actually negative. He stood toe-to-toe with the boss but was helpless against a brain mole. That's why we travel in parties.

All that said, the answer to your question is this: There is no such thing as high enough. Your saves should tower over your AC in lofty splendor.

[SowZ]

Forget Will saves. As a Fighter, you shouldn't be investing in it. It can be +3 at level 20 for all the difference it makes from a +12. Instead, get immunities to the worst things that failed Will Saves might trigger. Mind Blank, immunity to mind control, immunity to fear, immunity to mind-effecting in general, etc. etc. are all very feasible by level 20. Funnily enough, the investment to get fill immunity to mind control will A. be more reliable than an adequate Will Save and B. require less gold.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There are still nasty effects that require a will save that are not mind affecting. There is a thread currently running around listing a bunch of them (no links because difficult on phone).
Just grab a cloak of resistance +5. If it is still out of your reach then you never had a chance in the first place, but most saves will be brought into a more reasonable range (30-40% success).

[SowZ]

There are still nasty effects that require a will save that are not mind affecting. There is a thread currently running around listing a bunch of them (no links because difficult on phone).
Just grab a cloak of resistance +5. If it is still out of your reach then you never had a chance in the first place, but most saves will be brought into a more reasonable range (30-40% success).

True, but as a Fighter, your Will Save is going to be abysmal anyway without massive investment that is better put elsewhere. Sometimes, it is best to abandon a lost cause and accept that certain defenses you are going to fail most the time. So if you have a defense that will fail you 90% of the time, rather than spend a lot of time bringing it up to a 70% fail rate, you may as well just admit that your Will save sucks and mitigate in other ways. IE; defend against the nastiest effects and try and avoid situations where you will be assaulted by the rest.

[the_archduke]

So other than the cloak of resistance and upping my wisdom and constitution, are there any efficient ways to pump my Fort and Will saves?

[SowZ]

So other than the cloak of resistance and upping my wisdom and constitution, are there any efficient ways to pump my Fort and Will saves?

Not really. It is, oddly enough, going to be cheaper to just become immune to the individual effects that Will Save spells generally cause. Immunity to mind effecting covers most your bases, as stated earlier. A few potions of remove curse is cheap enough and covers a few of the will saves that mind-effecting doesn't. Immunity to death effects protects you from the worst of what's left. Protection from Evil will save you from Magic Jar, and a way to get haste will save you from Slow. Repulsion will still effect you, so carry a ranged weapon. As long as an ally has a way to cast dispel magic, (which there is no reason they shouldn't,) Temporal Stasis shouldn't be a big deal.

Spells like Glitterdust and Order's Wrath you can just eat.

Things that will be a serious problem will be Dictum, Plane Shift, and Imprisonment. But a 20th level Wizard should have at least a 28 Int., probably +2-+5 in misc Save modifiers, and +9 for 9th level spells. A Will save of 30-40 isn't going to be something you reliably beat as a Fighter. Sorry. /: There's just some spells that are probably going to straight up defeat you if you manage to get targeted by them. So, uh, don't get targeted by them.

I think that's most the Save or Die Will spells accounted for. Honestly, being completely immune to mind-effecting/death and vulnerable to those few things is going to be better for you than having a 30-40% chance to resist all of them across the board.

I understand the instinct to look at your weakness' and want to mitigate them. But you are better off playing to your strengths. You could design a build all around being good at fighting mages and resisting spells, but you will only manage to be decent at it even with all that investment. Meanwhile, your main party role will suffer. Make sure the enemy can't dominate you or easily one shot you with a spell. Beyond that, do what you are good at. The Fighter's job isn't to kill the enemy Wizard. Your job is to do ridiculous damage. Take out the big monsters and golems and keep the minions of the BBEG caster busy so your spellcasters can do their job. As a fighter, that's your wheelhouse.

I recommend a Cowl of Warding. Any spells that it doesn't protect you from, Ward until you are out of charges to do so.

[AvatarVecna]

My advice for "really good saves" is "average save bonus equals character level"; obviously, the simplest way to achieve this is to have saves roughly equal with each other. As for how to get that...

1. Cloak/Vest of Resistance +X

More than just about anything else, a decent cloak/vest of resistance can make your saves that much more capable.

2. Dipping

Find a class that works with your concept and take a couple levels in it; unless you're a spellcaster, dipping is pretty much all up-sides. Since your focus is on saves, you'll want to dip into something with more than one good save; Cleric and Druid qualify, and give some spellcasting, but dipping into spellcasters is almost as pointless as dipping out of them; Ranger gets a couple good saves and doesn't lose BAB, making it a good dip on a Fighter build; Monk 2 is notorious for being a wonderful dip, giving you +3 to all saves, +1 BAB, a couple feats (that can be retrained/DCS'd away), and evasion. Beyond that, Paladin (whether the regular or the alternates in Unearthed Arcana) get their Charisma bonus to all saves at level 2, making it a good dip as well, despite only getting a single good save (assuming your Cha is decent/good); furthermore, if you're a Warforged, you can take a Racial ACF to substitute Con for Wis whe. And all of that's just Core classes; I'm sure there's others out there that are at least as good as these.

3. Feats

Take a look through the "X Stat to Y bonus" thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) There's plenty of feats here that either substitute one attribute for the existing one in regards to saves, or just straight up add their bonus, no replacing. Of those, the one I definitely recommend is Steadfast Determination; not only does it let you use Con in place of Wis in regards to Will saves, but it also makes it so that your Fort saves don't auto-fail on a 1. The only downside: it requires Endurance.

4. Spells

Plenty of spells either gives bonuses to saving throws or they otherwise increase your ability to resist things that would call for saving throws. Some are cheap enough that continuous magic items of them (or magic items with enough charges/day to last a day with the buff's duration) aren't going to break the bank, although some are definitely things that would be best to just have a spellcaster cast on you.

[AvatarVecna]

Things that will be a serious problem will be Dictum, Plane Shift, and Imprisonment. But a 20th level Wizard should have at least a 28 Int., probably +2-+5 in misc Save modifiers, and +9 for 9th level spells. A Will save of 30-40 isn't going to be something you reliably beat as a Fighter. Sorry. /: There's just some spells that are probably going to straight up defeat you if you manage to get targeted by them. So, uh, don't get targeted by them.

If a Wizard 20 is fighting a Fighter X, the Fighter loses, unless the Wizard is deliberately being as terrible and as stupid as possible.

[Seerow]

True, but as a Fighter, your Will Save is going to be abysmal anyway without massive investment that is better put elsewhere. Sometimes, it is best to abandon a lost cause and accept that certain defenses you are going to fail most the time. So if you have a defense that will fail you 90% of the time, rather than spend a lot of time bringing it up to a 70% fail rate, you may as well just admit that your Will save sucks and mitigate in other ways. IE; defend against the nastiest effects and try and avoid situations where you will be assaulted by the rest.

I disagree. The Fighter with the base +12 mentioned can blow 10k to get another +4 insight bonus (Crystal Mask of Mindarmor). 3k more will get you another +5 on 3 saves/day (Mindarmor armor property). 13k is chump change at high levels, and will let you turn that +12 into a +21, which is a better than even shot against average DCs (seriously most DCs you face will be in the 25-30 range), and at least having a chance against the higher optimized DCs.

I am pretty sure there are other items out there I am forgetting that will boost saves relatively cheaply as well. And this is without going into any feats the Fighter might want to invest in (while Iron Will is crap, the Combat Focus line can give a +4 along with other things that are nice to have around. Not to mention Steadfast Determination, which will easily turn that +1 wisdom into a +5 minimum con).

Edit: Almost forgot, Otogyu hole is typically used for shenanigans, but its actual intended purpose is to spend 3000gp to get a +2 untyped bonus to will saves. So bring that up to 16k for a +18 always on and +23 3/day.

Also Armor Crystal of Mind Cloaking is a +5 competence bonus against all Mind-Affecting spells for 10,000gp. That's the other big one I was forgetting. It won't help against everything, but it will help against most of the stuff you are most worried about from Will saves.

[grarrrg]

I disagree. The Fighter with the base +12 mentioned can blow 10k to get another +4 insight bonus (Crystal Mask of Mindarmor). 3k more will get you another +5 on 3 saves/day (Mindarmor armor property).

Error...error...Pathfinder thread...does not compute...

[SowZ]

I disagree. The Fighter with the base +12 mentioned can blow 10k to get another +4 insight bonus (Crystal Mask of Mindarmor). 3k more will get you another +5 on 3 saves/day (Mindarmor armor property). 13k is chump change at high levels, and will let you turn that +12 into a +21, which is a better than even shot against average DCs (seriously most DCs you face will be in the 25-30 range), and at least having a chance against the higher optimized DCs.

I am pretty sure there are other items out there I am forgetting that will boost saves relatively cheaply as well. And this is without going into any feats the Fighter might want to invest in (while Iron Will is crap, the Combat Focus line can give a +4 along with other things that are nice to have around. Not to mention Steadfast Determination, which will easily turn that +1 wisdom into a +5 minimum con).

Edit: Almost forgot, Otogyu hole is typically used for shenanigans, but its actual intended purpose is to spend 3000gp to get a +2 untyped bonus to will saves. So bring that up to 16k for a +18 always on and +23 3/day.

Also Armor Crystal of Mind Cloaking is a +5 competence bonus against all Mind-Affecting spells for 10,000gp. That's the other big one I was forgetting. It won't help against everything, but it will help against most of the stuff you are most worried about from Will saves.

Yeah, sure, a +20 Will Save is certainly attainable. But if you are immune to Death and Mind-Effecting, you are already ignoring the most common stuff. What's left over Will Save wise is generally going to be A. stuff that you can survive. B. stuff cast by a 17th+ level Wizard, where the Will Save could pretty easily be in the upper 30s or even 40+.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's an example melee build using some of the stuff suggested:

Dwarf Ranger 3/Monk 2/Tattooed Monk 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Fighter 2/(some mix of Fighter and Tattooed Monk) X

Assuming 32 point-buy, attributes are as follows (before racial adjustment, after racial adjustment, and after level adjustments, respectively):

BRA: 14/16/16/8/14/8
ARA: 14/16/18/8/14/6
ALA: 14/16/21/8/14/6

Take "Power Attack" as your 1st lvl feat, "Two-Weapon Fighting" as your Ranger bonus feat, take "Steadfast Determination" as your 3rd lvl feat, "Improved Grapple" as your Monk bonus feat, and "Great Fortitude" as your 6th lvl feat. Take Weapon Finesse as your 9th lvl feat. Use your Fighter feats to enhance your unarmed combat skills.

By 12th level (before the mix of Fighter and Tattooed monk), purchase Iron Will for 3000 gp (via Otyugh Hole). Make sure to also purchase some sort of permanent CL 20 "Greater Magic Fang" effect to make your Unarmed Strikes enchanted to +5; this can be achieved by having a Druid/Ranger 20 cast Greater Magic Fang on you and having a Sorcerer/Wizard 20 cast Permanency on it before the duration runs out (for a total of 9100 gp); this can also be achieved by making a custom continuous item of "Greater Magic Fang" at CL 20 that can be activated once/day (lasting 20 hours, definitely enough to get your through the day), which costs 21600 gp. Both methods have problems by RAW: in the first, spells costing more than 3000 gp aren't generally available for purchase (except by DM approval), and Permanency costs 8500 gp (mostly due to the XP loss); similarly, the custom item would require DM approval. Still, getting something nice for your melee fighter shouldn't be hard unless your DM Hates Fighters

For actual items, an Amulet of Health +2 is 4000 gp, Gloves of Dexterity +2 are 4000 gp, and a Cloak of Resistance +3 is 9000 gp. Final cost before other items is either 29100 gp or 41600 gp (depending on the method you used), both of which are well within the 88000 gp budget ECL 12 characters have available, leaving a good chunk of change left for improving your unarmed combat skills.

Attributes after items: 14/18/23/8/14/6

When all is said and done, you've got an ECL 12 character that has Dex, Con, and Wis to AC/Touch AC, BAB +10/+5, Fort/Ref/Will saves of +24/+19/+17 (respectively), evasion, uncanny dodge, scent, Track, a Feral Stance, and a magic tattoo. Furthermore, a 1 is not an auto-fail on a Fortitude save. And you've still got 3 feats to work with, Power Attack, and up to 50k gp worth of combat-boosting gear to buy (beyond your +5 attack and damage on unarmed strikes).

Didn't see the PF tag... *facepalm* Well, some of my suggestions (dipping, spells, etc.) can still work, but others are less viable.

[P.F.]

And let's not forget that a Fighter's best defense against magic is often not a saving throw but the readied action "If she starts casting a spell..."

[Kurald Galain]

Invest in reroll effects. For example, if you're going to be a fighter, take the eldritch guardian archetype for an emissary familiar, and you can now reroll one failed save per day, in addition to getting a +2 from having a familiar in the first place.

Take traits like glory of old, or lessons of Chaldira. Be one of several races that gets a bonus to mind effects or to poison. Dip into a divine class and take divine protection. Have your party bard take the battle cry feat. It's certainly doable for any class to get your saves on an acceptable level (which doesn't mean "succeed on a 2+", of course).

[the_archduke]

Fighter was actually just an example of something I would never want to play because of the abysmal will save. My current character is a psychic warrior who will have saves in the mid to high 20s by the end of our 1-20 campaign. All of the general advice was very helpful.

[Yanisa]

Fighter was actually just an example of something I would never want to play because of the abysmal will save. My current character is a psychic warrior who will have saves in the mid to high 20s by the end of our 1-20 campaign. All of the general advice was very helpful.

What also could be useful for you is this little page here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation). It shows the averages of monsters in pathfinder should have in stats at a given CR. It's a good way to to get a rough feeling of what you need in stats but obviously exceptions always exist. Also this doesn't work when your DM builds custom monsters outside the pathfinder guidelines.

Also from that page around CR 20 monsters have a save DC of 27 on average. A fighter with a cloak would have +17 or roughly 50-50 odds. :smalltongue:

[the_archduke]

Yanisa, that is exactly what I need. Thanks.

Does anyone know of an item that would give an insight bonus to fort or ref saves? Crystal mask of mind armor gives a nice one for will saves, and I already have resistance and competence bonuses figured out. Are there any other bonuses I can get from items? Morale? Luck?

[Psyren]

Unless you're a monk, being great at every save just isn't really feasible or expected.

This is part and parcel of the game not being a solo affair - the point of a team-based game is for different members of the team to have differing strengths and weaknesses. That is just how the game is designed. If you're a caster, various spells can get you close to this ideal, but even then you are one dispel/disjunction away from being knocked off that pedestal and made vulnerable again.

What you can do is protect yourself against the worst effects, which generally have specific counters. Things like poison, death effects, mind control, negative levels, fatigue/exhaustion, nausea and fear, that rob you of your ability to act or meaningfully contribute to a fight - but for some, you will just have to rely on the party to help protect or restore you, just as they rely on you to help them maximize their magical longevity.

[Seerow]

Yanisa, that is exactly what I need. Thanks.

Does anyone know of an item that would give an insight bonus to fort or ref saves? Crystal mask of mind armor gives a nice one for will saves, and I already have resistance and competence bonuses figured out. Are there any other bonuses I can get from items? Morale? Luck?

Not aware of any Insight bonuses to fort or ref, but I wouldn't be surprised if they exist out there as spells. Insight to Reflex particularly seems like something that ought to be covered somewhere.

Stone of Good luck is 20k gold and gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves, ability checks, and skill checks. Luckblade is 22k and gives a +1 luck bonus to all saves.

Tabard of the Great Crusade is 5500gp, wearable over armor, and gives you and all allies within 20ft +1 morale to all saves (with alignment restrictions). If you're a 15th level Cleric (or blow a feat) it also gives you a 1/day heal and DR5/Evil, but that's just icing, since the +1 to saves for yourself alone breaks even on cost by the time you have a +3 cloak, and if the whole party chips in on it it's even more effective.

[duboisjf]

If you find a reliable morale bonus, check for a way to get Moment of greatness (wand or custom item) : you can double your morale bonus for one roll or check (duration in min/lvl, affect allies in 50ft burst too).

Not that good but turning a +2 into a +4 against a save or die spell could worth it.