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Indon
2007-04-17, 12:03 PM
So I was thinking about high-diplomacy builds, and I got to thinking, what about Intimidate?

What kinds of things could you do with a high Intimidate check? Make your enemies cower and flee before you, perhaps? What kinds of feats or skill tricks are fuelled by a high Intimidate score? What kind of PrC or race would get a bonus to the ability?

Or, in short: we've seen the 'diplomancer'. What is the 'intimimancer' like?

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 12:12 PM
A barbarian with a big axe. Do what I say or I will hit you! Used to great (and funny) effect by Thog.

MethodicalMeat
2007-04-17, 12:17 PM
Uhm, crazy person?

"D-d-d-dowhatIsayorI'llskinyou!" (note: spoken very fast with much eye twitching and hand wringing.)

Lemur
2007-04-17, 12:21 PM
I think a good step to take would be to pick up other abilities that deal fear effects as well.

Fear is cumulative, so if you stack fear effects on an enemy, you can do more to them than just make them quiver in their boots- you can make them run screaming.

I suppose Kiai Shout and Greater Kiai Shout from CW would be things to look into. I've never given this subject much thought, so I'm not really familiar with much abilities in this vein.

silentknight
2007-04-17, 12:23 PM
Tome of Battle has some extra tricks you can do with Intimidate, giving yourself bonuses or granting penalties to your foe.

Person_Man
2007-04-17, 12:32 PM
There are various Fear effects and feats associated with Intimidate.

I also have my PC use it whenever a PC interrogates an NPC, or even when they just they tell an NPC to do something they don't want to do (instead of asking or convincing an NPC, which uses Diplomacy, or lying to an NPC, which uses Bluff).

Talya
2007-04-17, 12:33 PM
"Why are you here?" The siren-like voice calls to you.

Nara the Heartwarder-sorceress of Sune glides sensually across the room, her diaphanous robes concealing all and little at the same time. She stops in front of you. Her peircing eyes seem to look through you, right to your very soul. She seems to be sizing you up as if you were just another peice of meat, and you are sure if she so chose you'd be a blabbering idiot lying on the floor. Of course, the difference between that and the reality of now may only be positional.

Roll for Intimidate, untrained: 18 + 8 (cha) + 2 (heart of passion) + 2 (nymph's kiss) = 30.

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 12:36 PM
... thats cheap... how do you even get an 8 cha bonus anyways? What level are you?

Talya
2007-04-17, 12:38 PM
Level 13. Starting charisma of 18, +3 from levelling, +3 from heartwarder class, +2 from equipment = 26.

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 12:39 PM
Hiss... But if you are level 13, my barbarian can do better (16 ranks in intimidate)

Talya
2007-04-17, 12:42 PM
Intimidate isn't her specialty. If it was...your barbarian would be in trouble. ;)

(Actually, your barbarian is a "person?" *zap* Dominate. He'd be wise to be intimidated.)

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 12:42 PM
Meh, intimidate just makes me shaken. *Kneecaps you*

Annarrkkii
2007-04-17, 01:01 PM
Yeah... you can make a lot of people shaken through Demoralizing and Intimidating Strike and the like. And staredown contests.

But that's really all, combat-wise.

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 01:03 PM
Combat-wise, yes, but a free change for any NPC to friendly? Yes, please.

DaMullet
2007-04-17, 07:25 PM
For as long as they can see the Intimidator. Then they're hostile.

No, please, unless you plan to kill them later.

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 07:26 PM
For as long as they can see the Intimidator. Then they're hostile.

No, please, unless you plan to kill them later.

They are your enemy. Why do you want to keep them alive? Just force them to be your trap monkey by triggering all of them.

Indon
2007-04-17, 07:29 PM
For as long as they can see the Intimidator. Then they're hostile.


The Intimimancer needs not friends who are not immune to social skills!

In fact, Intimimancers can have a personal code which involves distain towards anyone _not_ immune to their Intimidation checks. This will facilitate easy integration with a group of PC's.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-17, 10:44 PM
There is nothing more intimidating than a half-orc barbarian in full rage giggling like a little girl while in the process of Great Cleave.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-17, 10:48 PM
Check the PHB 2 for some sweet Intimidate lovin'. A player in a (disappointingly) brief bit I ran was a spiked chain wielding Fighter/Bard that made good use of a few feats from there, and anything that didn't come with solid AC and Will saves got frightened (sometimes panicked) in a hurry. Fear affects are cumulative, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) after all, so even if something says it makes an enemy shaken... it might not if you have something else that also would.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-17, 11:13 PM
Interesting note: The psionic power Attraction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/attraction.htm) grants you a bonus to Intimidate checks equal to 4 + [(PP spent - 1) / 2]. Wilders get Intimidate as a class skill, and have Cha as their manifesting stat. So, let's say a Wilder manifests this against someone, full strength: PP equal to manifest level, full Wild Surge, Overchannel, etc, for a nifty bonus to Intimidate. Let's also say that this person is Shaken for whatever reason. Now, because Fear effects stack, a successful Intimidate check will make the victim Frightened. However, the Attraction power compels the subject to be near the manifester. So, if the Wilder makes a successful Intimidate check, the victim becomes Frightened and will attempt to flee from the Wilder if possible, but is also inexorably attracted to the Wilder and will remain with her if possible.

So, my question is: What exactly is the victim's train of thought during all this? What if the Wilder manages to Panic the victim?

Solo
2007-04-17, 11:19 PM
where in the PHBII does intimidate get 'some loving'?

also, you have to threaten the target of your intimidate check in melee combat, correct?

Jasdoif
2007-04-17, 11:50 PM
...but is also inexorably attracted to the Wilder and will remain with her if possible.

So, my question is: What exactly is the victim's train of thought during all this? What if the Wilder manages to Panic the victim?As mentioned in the power's text, the subject will only act on the attraction when not engaged in combat.

As for train of thought, it'd probably be along the lines of awe over how expertly the wilder seems to wield her influence. Or, once out of immediate danger, feel that fleeing in fear was not what he should have done.


also, you have to threaten the target of your intimidate check in melee combat, correct?Correct.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-17, 11:57 PM
Complete Scoundrel has the delicious prestige class "Avenging Executioner" which is practically all about intimidating people. I'm not too keen on everything else for intimidation, but it might be a good addition.

Wehrkind
2007-04-18, 12:14 AM
Also, just because your targets are hostile when you leave, doesn't mean they are not going to do exactly what you were told. Let the buggers hate you, so long as they also fear you.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-18, 12:36 AM
Thrall of Malcanthet gets something like a half-dozen Charisma over the course of its 10 levels.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-18, 12:47 AM
Also, just because your targets are hostile when you leave, doesn't mean they are not going to do exactly what you were told. Let the buggers hate you, so long as they also fear you.

The targets remain "Friendly" for 1d6x10 minutes after you leave. At that point, they come to their senses, though they may still obey you if they've got good reason too (eg if your Intimidate check included a threat to their families or if you've got flunkies nearby who can kill them at a moment's notice).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-18, 12:53 AM
Clarion Call tactical feat from Tome of Battle (requiring a White Raven maneuver or two) lets you make an opponent Flanked for a full min on a DC 20 Intimidate check. Rogues... remove that man!

Solo
2007-04-18, 01:12 AM
I have a warlock with high Intimidate, but i can't seem to think of a use for it outside of stuff like interrogation. Is there some way to make his Intimidate skills useful in combat?

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-18, 01:46 AM
I have a warlock with high Intimidate, but i can't seem to think of a use for it outside of stuff like interrogation. Is there some way to make his Intimidate skills useful in combat?

google search:

site:boards1.wizards.com intimidate

That should net you some ideas.

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-18, 02:17 AM
I tend to use Intimidate more as a social skill to get what I want. For example, just last Friday my 1st level Red Dragon Heritage Sorcerer with maximum ranks in intimidate was on a ship with two other adventurers (who he will then be partying with, as well as two others later on). One of the people on the ship was a Tiefling, and the sailors, a superstitious lot, were starting to get antsy. Especially when the ship hit a calm period and we were more or less stuck in open water.

Anyway, as the sailors were beginning to attack the Tiefling, my character stepped in. He was completely nice and genial about it, but whenever he talked about these matters there was a definitive and implicit threat of what would happen if they didn't do what he said.

This can work with combatant NPCs as well. If your DM is flexible enough, you should be able to use Intimidate to cause some people to back down from attacking you. Many creatures and NPCs are intelligent enough to know when they're outmatched, after all.

Wehrkind
2007-04-18, 02:31 AM
The targets remain "Friendly" for 1d6x10 minutes after you leave. At that point, they come to their senses, though they may still obey you if they've got good reason too (eg if your Intimidate check included a threat to their families or if you've got flunkies nearby who can kill them at a moment's notice).
Or more to the point, if they are convinced you are going to come back and remove their lungs should you find they have failed you. I am not saying they might not try and scheme against you, but after a while they are going to truly believe that their best course of action is to do what you say, at least until they figure out how to defeat you.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-18, 04:40 AM
Great thread idea! And also got a good inspiration from the notion that fear effects stack...may be something in for the skill-poor fighter even in core...will think on it.

Something which may be overlooked is that you can change an opponent's behaviour to "friendly" regardless of what attitude he had, so even during combat. I am not refering here to the "intimidate in combat" per se which is rather weak, but to the 10-round action of intimidating. The action description only says "interaction" and combat (in particular for intimidating purposes) is definitely an interaction. So, you can try to fight defensively against your (possibly superior) opponent for 10 rounds after having announced your intimidate intention, and then that opponent, if he fails the opposed check, will try to withdraw from combat/not fight you any longer for fear of losing (which is not the same as giving up, but close enough for survival).

- Giacomo

Epiphanis
2007-04-18, 08:13 AM
The Samurai class, while universally reviled, has some solid bonuses in the fear department. A high-charisma Samurai who takes Kiai Shout has a remarkable ability to take on hordes of opponents, as long as they are not fear-resistant like undead.

Demoralization by intimidation is one of the very few mind effects that bypasses the Will save (though not Wisdom bonuses). It is an excellent tactic against casters, particularly arcanists, who usually have crappy Wisdom.

The "shaken" status condition drops all saves by -2. An intimidator boosts the effectiveness of all allied spellcasters against the target.

The "sickened" condition stacks with the "shaken" condition. An effective tactic would be to have two party members specialize in these effects -- say, a good intimidator teamed with a warlock with Sickening Blast or a bludgeoning martial character with Brutal Strike. In the first round attempt to impose both shaken and sicken on a tough target (assuming its susceptible to both). If successful, in the second round have one or more casters use an appropriate "Save-or-Fail" spell against the enemy with a -4 save. If you hit him up with a save the target's already weak in, you can achieve a two-round victory with a relatively low-level spell.

Thelion
2007-04-18, 08:38 AM
There's one thing I never understand with intimidate and charisma: dwarfs and half-orcs fighters/barbarians are supposed to be less good in intimidating than, say, humans and elves due to their charisma penalties. I know who would scare the heck out of me more with a waraxe...

Torek
2007-04-18, 09:47 AM
Another question regarding intimidate in combat.
A succesful check intimidates for one round.
What about the next round? Can a PC intimidate again? For how long? What if he fails to intimidate one round? Can he still try the next round?

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-18, 10:40 AM
There's one thing I never understand with intimidate and charisma: dwarfs and half-orcs fighters/barbarians are supposed to be less good in intimidating than, say, humans and elves due to their charisma penalties. I know who would scare the heck out of me more with a waraxe...

Charisma is your force of personality. Someone whose presence is weak is not going to be as intimidating, weapons nonwithstanding. The idiot waving around the greataxe is far less intimidating than the eloquent one who you just KNOW can and will carry through with his threats, most of which are far too unpleasant to be repeated.

Black Hand
2007-04-18, 06:45 PM
:smallconfused: That's the one thing about the Intimidate skill ever since it was first described for 3.x...It's the fact that it's exclusively Charisma based. Personallity or not it seems that it functions in such a way that the skinny bard has a better chance of intimidating an enemy or prisoner than the hulkingly ugly mean Half orc??

The 2E version made more sense in a fashion where the person with Indimidate had the choice of either using their Strength or Charisma.

So in the case of the Bard vs the Half orc: The bard would use the charisma in conceiving all sorts of nasty threats of bodily harm.

While the half orc could also intimidate the prisoner by taking the iron flask and crushing it on his forhead then pointing to the prisoner indicating the same fate...with a good growl of course.

:smallcool: Meh, houserule I guess.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-18, 07:07 PM
Personallity or not it seems that it functions in such a way that the skinny bard has a better chance of intimidating an enemy or prisoner than the hulkingly ugly mean Half orc??Only if you're more or less trying to cheat. That bard? Intimidate is a cross-class skill for him. Charisma or not, his modifier isn't going to be very good even if he's doing his darndest to be good. That hulk of a half orc? Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues all get intimidate as a class skill, and it sounds like he's one of them. If you want to be good at a skill, buy ranks in it instead of moaning about not getting things for free. Trained interrogators are good at it; that huge guy from the gym, not necessarily.

Moving on, low charisma doesn't mean "so ugly he's scary." It means unnoticeable or unremarkable, with a side of socially awkward. You walk into a room and no one gives half a poop. "My Orc has 3 charisma! People get the jibblies just looking at him!" doesn't work, and it's an attempt to get things for free. I get the jibblies looking at a mind flayer -- that he has 17 charisma doesn't mean I start thinking about his package, it means I can't get my eyes off of the squid on his face and am concerned about the very real possibility that he will devour my sweet, delicious brain matter as he flawlessly delivers his favorite soliloquy about, I dunno, eating brains.

Further, you're extrapolating too much from the real world. In reality, physical violence is something of an appreciable threat at times. In a world where that scrawny dude in the heavy robe can kill you with his mind 37 different ways in half a second, "GREATAXES AND CAPS LOCK!" is not going to cut it as an intimidation tactic. (Especially since his low charisma means he probably does it with a stutter.) Strength doesn't matter when magic (or guns, for that matter) enter the picture. (But even then, size still awards a bonus to the check in D&D.)


While the half orc could also intimidate the prisoner by taking the iron flask and crushing it on his forhead then pointing to the prisoner indicating the same fate...with a good growl of course.That's a nice circumstance bonus, which should go nicely with the ones you got for capturing and restraining him.

Edit:
To illustrate the importance of buying ranks, consider a Human Bard versus a Half-Orc Barbarian at 1st level. (Gnomes and Halflings are good races for a Bard as well, and it should be noted that they'd take an additional -4 to Intimidate due to size.)

Assuming the elite array, the Bard has a Cha modifier of +2, with a potential of +2 from his ranks. The Half-Orc, if he dumps charisma, can have a -2 modifier and can get +4 back from putting ranks in the skill. If the Bard doesn't put ranks in Intimidate (which he likely won't, as he has plenty of other skills to attend to), you're already even, and will continue to gain ground on him as you level up since you can get 2 ranks to every 1 of his. The only glitch in that is that he'll get +2 from the Bluff synergy at 2nd level. If the Barbarian isn't about as good at Intimidate as the Bard, it's his own bloody fault.

Black Hand
2007-04-18, 07:27 PM
Hmmm, now that's taken a little too literally. Well worded and ruled out though with the ranks and skills and such.

My example should have been two base classes. Two level one commoners... The skinny kid with the 18 cha, and the Mean half orc.

Besides in the end that's why I mentioned houseruleing. After all the main guidelines of the playershandbook and DMG is that nothing's written in stone eh?

artaxerxes
2007-04-18, 07:40 PM
The 18 Cha commoner has a force of personality, he can perform like Robert de Niro. The 6 Cha Orc you dismiss as a nerd! Even if he is a silent giant.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-18, 07:48 PM
My example should have been two base classes. Two level one commoners... The skinny kid with the 18 cha, and the Mean half orc.The skinny kid is the bully. The mean half orc is the big stupid enforcer that the skinny kid convinces to help him out, unless the half orc has an appreciable charisma, in which case this is largely moot.

Scorpina
2007-04-18, 07:53 PM
The kind of initimidation that requires a check doesn't come from size, strength or how menacing you look. Sure, you might be a little edgy around the half-orc with his massive double axe - but that's just common sense.

Come across the D&D equivinalt of Lord Vetinari or Granny Weatherwax (I tried to think of a non-Discworld example, I really did...), however, and yoy are well and truly intimidated - not because they're physically imposing, or because they weild magical or political power, but because they have presence (i.e. high Charisma) enough to seriously unsettle you.

And that, my friends, is a sucessful Intimidate check.

Epiphanis
2007-04-18, 08:06 PM
Another question regarding intimidate in combat.
A succesful check intimidates for one round.
What about the next round? Can a PC intimidate again? For how long? What if he fails to intimidate one round? Can he still try the next round?

Initmidate is listed as a skill where trying again is "optional" but in most instances unlikey to work after the first try. However, this is unclear -- it leaves open the possibility that it might -- and further it might be interpreted as merely referring to the temporary attitude change use of the skill and not to the demoralizing use of it. The RAW leave it pretty much up to DM's call.

I personally believe that DMs should allow successive attempts to demoralize. Since for most characters this takes a standard action and has only one round effect, the intimidator is usually kept out of melee combat keeping the target scared each round.

High level Samurais can intimidate as a move action. They could take two successive use of intimidate to render their foes frightened for one round -- useful for forcing opponents out of strong defensive positions and for foiling attempts to flank, among other uses.

Two seperate intimidators could also attempt to demoralize one target they both threaten in the same round, rendering him frightened.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-18, 08:21 PM
High level Samurais can intimidate as a move action.High level samurais don't exist. They all died while they were wee-little low-level samurais. :smalltongue:

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-18, 09:43 PM
Actually, digging around yesterday, I have to agree with what someone said elsewhere. The main problem with Intimidate and Charisma is due to the holdover from 2nd Edition. Back then, Dwarves were dour and taciturn, Half-Orcs(if they existed at all) were ugly, etc. This carried over to 3.x, but then Charisma became more than just about "appearance", and totally screwed them over(not forgetting that -2 Charisma is not equal to +2 Constitution, according to their own rules).

Oh yes, and please stop implying that low Charisma automatically=stutterer.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-18, 10:30 PM
Player 1: Aw crap, it's our samurai ally.
Samurai: Hey guys! Guess what?
Player 2: What is it this time, Samurai?
Samurai: I just pissed off a whole legion of foes with my mad aggravation skills!
Player 1: ...
Player 2: ...!
Samurai: ...It was a good idea at the time. Listen, someone know a good cleric? These two things might be related.

Matthew
2007-04-18, 11:00 PM
I would totally love a Samurai sidekick.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-18, 11:02 PM
Hell, I'd do it just to see the DM's face when I hand him the character sheet and he sees the name "Decoy McKillhimfirst".

Talya
2007-04-18, 11:06 PM
You guys are talking about Samurai in Complete Warrior, not the one in Oriental Adventures, right?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-18, 11:09 PM
Yeah, I got nothing against the OA samurai. Except that he's too competent at his job to make a good joke.

Matthew
2007-04-18, 11:13 PM
Yes and no. I would love either one as a sidekick. If he was a Complete Warrior Samurai I would name Musashi Miyamoto, if he was an Oriental Adventures Samurai I would be more respectful.

Wolf_Shade
2007-04-19, 09:27 AM
EDIT: After reading further some of the responses. It appears my input was based on ignorance of the rules.

Wolf_Shade
2007-04-19, 09:44 AM
EDIT: After reading further some of the responses. It appears my input was based on ignorance of the rules.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-19, 12:07 PM
If he was a Complete Warrior Samurai I would name Musashi MiyamotoMore like Musashi MiyamotOWNED, M I RITE??!?!11one!

...Yeah, I'll run along now.

Roderick_BR
2007-04-19, 03:03 PM
Combat-wise, yes, but a free change for any NPC to friendly? Yes, please.
NPC: "Your dirty barbarian."
PC: "When you say 'dirty barbarian', say it with a SMILE. And for you, it's 'dirty barbarian SIR'!"
NPC: "(gulp) Y-yes, sir!"

Hillarity insues.

Foolosophy
2007-04-19, 03:59 PM
please ignore

Foolosophy
2007-04-19, 04:01 PM
on a relate note: is there any way a bard could intimidate as a class skill?
I vaguely remember a 3.0 feat that allowed you to take some additional class skills. Clerics can get some via domains, and the draconic feats with the proper choice seem to be a way to get intimidate. but taking dragontouched and then draconic heritage just to get intimidate seems to be a bit much.
Any easier ways?

Indon
2007-04-19, 04:02 PM
Humans have a feat called "Able Learner" availible to them that lets them take all skills as if they were class skills.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-19, 06:30 PM
Humans have a feat called "Able Learner" availible to them that lets them take all skills as if they were class skills.Not quite. They only play one skill point per rank regardless of whether a skill is class or cross-class, but it does not change the max-rank limit for cross-class skills.

Indon
2007-04-19, 08:15 PM
Not quite. They only play one skill point per rank regardless of whether a skill is class or cross-class, but it does not change the max-rank limit for cross-class skills.

Ah. Well, that's not quite so good. I wonder if there are any feats or anything that would make Intimidate a class skill no-matter what? Or maybe races. Don't some races have the ability to always consider a specific skill a class skill? (Maybe I'm thinking of non-D&D D20 games, though)

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-19, 10:09 PM
Ah. Well, that's not quite so good. I wonder if there are any feats or anything that would make Intimidate a class skill no-matter what? Or maybe races. Don't some races have the ability to always consider a specific skill a class skill? (Maybe I'm thinking of non-D&D D20 games, though)

By the rules, once you take a class with a skill, all skills it provides/makes class skills are considered "class skills" for the purposes of maximum ranks, but might be considered "cross class" for the purposes of costs, if the level you're taking does not have them as class skills. This can be solved if you're a Human with Able Learner and you then take Rogue+whichever class has the remaining skills.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-19, 10:40 PM
Not quite. They only play one skill point per rank regardless of whether a skill is class or cross-class, but it does not change the max-rank limit for cross-class skills.

All you have to do then is take one level in a class with Intimidate as a class skill.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-19, 11:49 PM
That's my secret to ultimate skill monkey-age, actually. Able Learner + rapid class switches = the most skilled man in the world, the planes, and even parts of Waterdeep.

The other key is to amp your intelligence until you get more skill ranks each level then you have skills. This is the challenging part, and the one which I spend the most amount of time trying to think up effective crunch for. It isn't easy, and I've yet to find a method I feel is totally satisfactory.

Because satisfactory, to me, would be having max skills ranks in everything. I'm sure you can imagine my trouble.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-20, 12:38 AM
That's my secret to ultimate skill monkey-age, actually. Able Learner + rapid class switches = the most skilled man in the world, the planes, and even parts of Waterdeep.

The other key is to amp your intelligence until you get more skill ranks each level then you have skills. This is the challenging part, and the one which I spend the most amount of time trying to think up effective crunch for. It isn't easy, and I've yet to find a method I feel is totally satisfactory.

Because satisfactory, to me, would be having max skills ranks in everything. I'm sure you can imagine my trouble.

Reincarnation cheese. It's about the only reliable method of constantly gaining Intelligence. Slower than levelling? Yes, but levelling can only get you so far, and you can only find so many 3246328468th level challenges. :smallbiggrin:

By the way, you can never run out of skills to learn. Knowledge: Ancient Haphtshalboah Religious Rites, for example. :smalltongue: