Wizard Duel?

[MethodicalMeat]

Alrighty, probably been done before, but what the hell, here goes nothing.

Gandalf vs. Dumbledore vs. Raistlin vs. Elminster

Personally, I'm with either Gandalf or Raistlin on this one.
The Former being essentially immortal and able to reincarnate if he dies before he finishes his job, of course, Raistlin has killed gods...

[Kosmopolite]

Gandalf was only resurrected because he still had a job to do. I doubt a duel counts. Nonetheless, I'd still give it to him.

[MethodicalMeat]

Basically, I think the only two with a chance are Gandalf and Raistlin. I agree though, Gandalf would probably win, based upon experience and patience if nothing else, although I'm guessing his magical power at least equal to Raistlin's.

[Ishmael]

Well, Gandalf could certainly not win on Middle Earth, where he was constrained and forced to be normal, essentially. His powers as an Istari, a form of the Maia, he promised not to use there--his job was to council, largely. So, in some ways, he was more powerful than any of them, though we do not know the full extent of his powers as a Maiar.

[SoulSpear]

I sure wish I knew more about things

[Raistlin1040]

Raistlin. Slayer of Dragons, Gods, and master of the Staff of Magius. Go Raistlin!

[Innis Cabal]

ya...Raistlin....so much more magic power then Gandalf

[MethodicalMeat]

Ishmael does bring up a good point...I wonder what the full extent of his powers are? Chances are good he could take Raistlin, although he would probably try to avoid an all-out magic battle, knowing that it would tear up quite a lot of land, not to mention the civilian casulties.

[averagejoe]

In a four way match? Gandalf is by far the smartest, and he could arrange things so El and Dumb beat Raist down, and then picks of the remainder.

[AmoDman]

Gandalf is a demi-deity. Using his full power = pwn. Dumbledore? Seriously? The rest? Who gives a ****.

[Erloas]

Gandalf is a demi-deity. Using his full power = pwn. Dumbledore? Seriously? The rest? Who gives a ****.

Gandalf might be a demi-deity but Raistlin managed to defeat a full diety. Raistlin pretty much completely destroyed a world in the process though. Although I don't really know enough about most of them to say much. I think Raistlins main failing is his physical weakness, which shouldn't make a huge difference in a magical fight, but it might be enough in a long battle of attrition.

[Darkxarth]

How are we not taking Dumbledore seriously? Has everyone forgotten that he has the power to kill a person with a single spell? Not a save-or-die spell, not 'deals a bajillion d6s damage' spell, it will kill you. Every time. With only one exception ever (and he had epic-level plot-armor). And if we take away the fact that he wouldn't want to kill anyone there except Raistlin, there's nothing to keep him from Avada Kedavra-ing the **** out of the others.

Now, if we take each of them in context of their own stories...

Gandalf: A good guy, Solar-level power. Fights evil.

Dumbledore: A good guy, unknown power level, though definitely a very high level mage. Fights evil part-time, tends to let lesser heroes do the actual work.

Raistlin: I've only read one book with Raistlin in it, and he came across as extremely angsty. That being said, he is quite powerful. Evil (unless I'm much mistaken)

Elminster: A vaguely indifferent good guy. Epic level mage. Fights evil sometimes (though he consistently ignores world-threatening evil so long as there's a ragtag band of unlikely heroes on the job).

If we use this as our basis, Gandalf and Dumbledore and immediately gang up on and kill Raistlin. Elminster, seeing that a couple of guys have things under control, wanders off to ignore his own world. Afterwards, Dumbledore and Gandalf become best friends (both talking about their slightly annoying young wards).

[MethodicalMeat]

Darkxarth, you do know that Raistlin kills gods, right? I don't think an old school teacher (who gets killed, I might add) really stands a chance.

[AmoDman]

Gandalf might be a demi-deity but Raistlin managed to defeat a full diety. Raistlin pretty much completely destroyed a world in the process though. Although I don't really know enough about most of them to say much. I think Raistlins main failing is his physical weakness, which shouldn't make a huge difference in a magical fight, but it might be enough in a long battle of attrition.

And? That was in a setting where gods come and go like fans of the setting itself. One god dead = oh well. In LOTR...there's only one vaguely defined upper, ultimate power that is considered an actual deity. If he died, world = probably over. His underlings define the tides of existence, and Gandalf is a stone's throw away from them.

But to my previous statement, who gives a **** about Raistlin or Elminister for long anyway?

[averagejoe]

But to my previous statement, who gives a **** about Raistlin or Elminister for long anyway?

Truth. Gangalf could win just by doing nothing and waiting for the others to be forgotten.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

The main problem with this old debate is the Raistlin fanboys tend to ruin (in my expierience) honestly, i have no clue how things would turn out but two things amaze me about these debates:

1: Szass Tam never gets in on the action, i've only read one piece of fiction with him in it (a short story) but it, and he, were awesome.

2: Elminster always gets bogged down because he has been "committed" to DnD stats and it's kind of hard to pin down how much being the sometimes lover of a goddess of magic helps him out. Though with an anti-magic field and his sword (which i believe he is at least decently competent with) i figure he could take down Dumbledore, Raistlin and most other fantasy mages with the typical physical/ martial weakness/infirmity

[Raistlin1040]

I'm offended by that. As it stands, I believe that, if we ignore alignment concepts, it'd end with Raistlin and Gandalf. Elminster just seems a bit weak compared to them, and Dumbledore's you know, dead. If we're just looking at raw magical power, then it'd be close. If it was all things considered, Raistlin would have Caramon and would get some power from him. Although Gandalf might get the ring. I don't know. I think those two are the only ones with a "real" chance of winning.

[Hades]

Elminster...his sword (which i believe he is at least decently competent with)

It should also be remembered that Gandalf also gets a sword (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/glamdring.html), with which he may or may not have slain a Balrog, but which he uses throughout several wars and battles (book, not movie). Also to be remembered is the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White.

[MethodicalMeat]

Hmm, I'd actually forgotten about Gandalf's sword, and as for Caramon, if this is indeed at the point in Raistlin's life where he has the immense magical power, then he has already become, shall we say, estranged to his brother.

[Vonriel]

I said this in another thread and I'll say it again here. Raistlin and Gandalf would wind up throwing worlds at each other trying to kill the other. Seriously. We are talking about two beings with deific powers unleashing their full might. Anyone and everyone on a planet in the solar system would probably die. The widespread chaos that arises as a result would bring the attention of just about every god that happened to be there, and they would descend upon the two with their full wrath. Result? All four die, and reality as those gods knew it is shattered.

[Darkxarth]

and Dumbledore's you know, dead
And they're all fictional characters and would never meet each other in the first place.

I'm simply stressing the point that saying Dumbledore's dead isn't really a valid argument. Who's to say from what point in their lives we draw the characters? Because if so, I'd like to take Raistlin as a baby, Elminster as a level 1 character, and Gandalf right after he finished fighting the Balrog, when he couldn't do anything but try to die.

I'm going to say it again.
Dumbledore has a spell that is an instant kill. You get no saving throw, you just die. That's it.

Yes, Raistlin and Gandalf (and Elminster in my opinion) are all powerful enough to bend reality around them and hurl ungodly crap at each other all day long, but they're also strong enough to block each other's magic. They can not, however, stop an Avada Kedavra. It will kill you. Period.

[AmoDman]

Yes, Raistlin and Gandalf (and Elminster in my opinion) are all powerful enough to bend reality around them and hurl ungodly crap at each other all day long, but they're also strong enough to block each other's magic. They can not, however, stop an Avada Kedavra. It will kill you. Period.

So will a powerful bullet wound to the head. Any ganbanger and their girlfriend has access to that. Certain 12 year old children have access to that. Either way, there's a kogillion ways to avoid it, and the same with the Avada Kadavra curse...especially for deific wizards wielding magic or divine power itself.

[JabberwockySupafly]

Okay I keep hearing people talking about how Raistlin has killed gods ect. ect. ect. Am I the only person who read Dragons of Summer Flame? Raistlin is a god. He's Majere, god of time and space. He's not really evil, he simply acted that way to achieve what needed to be done in order to make sure Chaos was defeated and the world of Krynn would continue to exist. It's also why he left when the gods left. He is called the Master of Past & Present for a reason. The way I see it is he saw the line in time he had to follow in order to achieve the ultimate result of the defeat of Chaos. So he took the guise of a mortal and did what he had to do, in order to ultimately bring about Chaos' defeat. Didn't anyone else wonder why Fisban didn't BS with Raistlin?
For that reason alone, I'm gonna say Raistlin wins. He's a god of time, which means he could most likely see the outcome of any conflict he would get in and then adjust his tactics accordingly. It's like he's got a gold pass ticket to the What If? Machine. I mean, seriously, hasn't anyone else thought it amazingly suspicious that the god of time shared the same name as the surname of an uberwizard who was called The Master of Past & Present? Gandalf is powerful, and would be the only one to really be a competitor. Get Elminster away from the Weave & his sex-bunny Mystra and he's basically a dead man. Dumbldore? Don't know anything about Harry Potter, so I can't really comment.

Anyways, not trying to be rude, but this is just how I see things. If I have offended anyone, I apologise.


Cheers
JS

[sun_tzu]

I'm going to say it again.
Dumbledore has a spell that is an instant kill. You get no saving throw, you just die. That's it.

Yes, Raistlin and Gandalf (and Elminster in my opinion) are all powerful enough to bend reality around them and hurl ungodly crap at each other all day long, but they're also strong enough to block each other's magic. They can not, however, stop an Avada Kedavra. It will kill you. Period.
Correction: Nothing (well, almost nothing) in the Harry Potter universe can stop an aveda kedavra. There is no reason to be certain that magical protections from D&D or LotR can't block it - especially when considering how underpowered Potterverse wizards are compared to even medium-level D&D wizards.

[AmoDman]

Correction: Nothing (well, almost nothing) in the Harry Potter universe can stop an aveda kedavra. There is no reason to be certain that magical protections from D&D or LotR can't block it - especially when considering how underpowered Potterverse wizards are compared to even medium-level D&D wizards.

This is wrong in and of itself. Even the Potterverse wizards have shield charms and the like that will deflect an Avada Kadavra. They just have to be smart and fast at avoiding one.

[thorgrim29]

Well, in experience terms, both Gandalf and Elminster are on equal footing, both of them being among the most ancient beings in their respective worlds. Raistling has Fis whatshisname's experience, granted, but still, and Dumbledore is what, 100, 150 tops? I'td probably be a question of setting, in the realms for example, mystra would intervene to prevent global destruction, and she is one of the most powerfull gods, plus she's El's mistress, so he gets bonus points here. I just have one question, how would you get 4 superpowerfull wizards of titanic intellect and no previous relationship to fight eachother? The 2 old men would just sit dowm and smoke a pipe together, you could make it a smoke-ring competition I guess..... Raistlin.... well I'm not all that familiar with him but I imagine he'd sit down and learn, and Dumbledoor would just be ignored I guess....

[MethodicalMeat]

Well, in experience terms, both Gandalf and Elminster are on equal footing, both of them being among the most ancient beings in their respective worlds. Raistling has Fis whatshisname's experience, granted, but still, and Dumbledore is what, 100, 150 tops? I'td probably be a question of setting, in the realms for example, mystra would intervene to prevent global destruction, and she is one of the most powerfull gods, plus she's El's mistress, so he gets bonus points here. I just have one question, how would you get 4 superpowerfull wizards of titanic intellect and no previous relationship to fight eachother? The 2 old men would just sit dowm and smoke a pipe together, you could make it a smoke-ring competition I guess..... Raistlin.... well I'm not all that familiar with him but I imagine he'd sit down and learn, and Dumbledoor would just be ignored I guess....

I thought Elminster was just a mortal favored by Mystra, or whatever her name is, but then again, I haven't read a lot of Forgotten Realms. As for Raistlin...I think he'd prefer doing something like trying to rip the arcane knowledge from everyone else.

[Vonriel]

I guess no one buys into my world-crushing armageddon theory, then? Ahh, well, such is the life of being right. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[Ishmael]

Wasn't Elminster favored by the old Mystra? The one in the present world is a different one, after the Time of Troubles.

As for gods interceding, wouldn't Eru just sing the conflict out of existence? He is, remember, a God figure, not just a god. Though, assuming that that wouldn't happen, because the fight is actually happening, then it would be a pretty close fight.

Well, maybe. It's hard to compare four systems of magic, especially since Gandalf's powers have barely been hinted at, and we don't know what the ring gives him. He is a servant of either Irmo or Manwe, depending upon your interpretation of the text, but that doesn't help much.

[Arang]

As for gods interceding, wouldn't Eru just sing the conflict out of existence? He is, remember, a God figure, not just a god. Though, assuming that that wouldn't happen, because the fight is actually happening, then it would be a pretty close fight.

Well, maybe. It's hard to compare four systems of magic, especially since Gandalf's powers have barely been hinted at, and we don't know what the ring gives him. He is a servant of either Irmo or Manwe, depending upon your interpretation of the text, but that doesn't help much.

Actually, Eru is God, as in the Christian version. At least that's how Tolkien thought of him.

I'd say if this fight happened, Gandalf would win. He and Sauron are so insanely powerful that they don't even actually fight in any other way than trying to block each others' view and the like. They'd just break existence if they did.

And was I the only one who thought Raistlin and Majere were two different beings? What with the twins being named after Majere and all.

[Lord Magtok]

The second I saw the title of this thread I remembered this comic. (http://legendary.comicgenesis.com/d/20070125.html)

[EvilElitest]

Actually, Eru is God, as in the Christian version. At least that's how Tolkien thought of him.

I'd say if this fight happened, Gandalf would win. He and Sauron are so insanely powerful that they don't even actually fight in any other way than trying to block each others' view and the like. They'd just break existence if they did.

And was I the only one who thought Raistlin and Majere were two different beings? What with the twins being named after Majere and all.

Just a nitpick, but Sauron was far more powerful than Gandalf. Gandalf and all of the other members of the order didn't want to fight Sauron directly. Sauron was able to take on gods to a limited extent, so he far out powers Gandalf, though not in his eye form i'll admit
And guys, while i like Ralstlin, i think Elminster and Dumblor are still pretty powerful in their own fight
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