Mount questions

[j_spencer93]

This came up for the first time in our last game.
Can someone who uses a mount to charge use natural attacks alongside their base attack? I don't think so and actually think the rules make that clear but just want to be fair.

And for the sake of argument, is there a way to do this?

Also, the player found "handbook" talking about how to make a good mount and it mentioned being able to swap your mounts feats as long as they are not bonus feat. 2 things- is this true, seems kind of broken? And what would their bonus feats be, the ones granted by HD???

[Bronk]

This came up for the first time in our last game.
Can someone who uses a mount to charge use natural attacks alongside their base attack? I don't think so and actually think the rules make that clear but just want to be fair.

And for the sake of argument, is there a way to do this?

Also, the player found "handbook" talking about how to make a good mount and it mentioned being able to swap your mounts feats as long as they are not bonus feat. 2 things- is this true, seems kind of broken? And what would their bonus feats be, the ones granted by HD???

Well, a mount can't normally use its natural attacks on your charge, because it is on your initiative count, so there's that.

The mounted character can normally only make one attack after a charge, so no, unless he/she has pounce... then yes, they can use all their attacks.

For swapping their feats: The idea is that only the bonus feats are inherent to the mount's race, so in theory the DM could allow you to find a non standard subject that happened to choose different feats. Aside from that, you'd have to rely on your DM allowing you to influence your mount's feat choices as it levels up (by gaining HD by being a paladin's mount or a Druid's Animal Companion, for example), or allowing you to use feat swapping tricks like 'chaos shuffle', level draining, and so on.

[Hiro Quester]

Can you pounce while mounted? I wouldn't have thought so. You use your move action to control the mount

With a DC 20 ride check you get a standard action after the mount's move (if you fail that check then controlling the mount takes your whole action). So no secondary (natural weapon) attacks that round.

[j_spencer93]

Well after doing alot of searching i seem to find only two ways to do this

Crinti shadow marauder and wild plains outrider.

Am i right assuming a crinti shadow marauder could full attack after teleporting to their target???
Anyway to do a teleporting trample?

[Necroticplague]

This came up for the first time in our last game.
Can someone who uses a mount to charge use natural attacks alongside their base attack? I don't think so and actually think the rules make that clear but just want to be fair.

And for the sake of argument, is there a way to do this?

Also, the player found "handbook" talking about how to make a good mount and it mentioned being able to swap your mounts feats as long as they are not bonus feat. 2 things- is this true, seems kind of broken? And what would their bonus feats be, the ones granted by HD???

To answer the first question: not by default. Even if you're guiding the animal with your knees as a free action, you only get one attack if your mount moves more than five feet. To quote the rules for mounted combat:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted. This applies even if the mount is charging. Even if you have pounce, it's the mount that's charging, not you (though you get the bonus to attack and the penalty to AC as well).

Wild Plains Outrider lets you full-attack if your mount only does a single move, but I'm not sure of any way to do a full-attack while your mount charges.

Sure. Any creature could have selected its feats differently. Just like how one character can have different feat selection, your mount might have selected it's feats differently from a different otherwise identical creature. The feats from its HD are not bonus feats. Bonus feats are feats marked in its statblock with a small b, or called out in the mounts racial description as having as a bonus feat. And no, it's not that broken, because most mount-worthy creatures have feats that completely suck or are irrelevant to their function.

EDIT:
Can you pounce while mounted? I wouldn't have thought so. You use your move action to control the mount

With a DC 20 ride check you get a standard action after the mount's move (if you fail that check then controlling the mount takes your whole action). So no secondary (natural weapon) attacks that round.
The DC 20 is only for light ponies, ponies, and heavy horses (and presumably other mounts that aren't trained for combat). A combat-ready mount is only a DC5 check to guide with your knees as a free action.

[j_spencer93]

Interesting, thanks for the replies.
Although a handbook online says it allows it, i am not convinced a crinti marauder teleporting takes its mount with it, does it?

[Hiro Quester]

The DC 20 is only for light ponies, ponies, and heavy horses (and presumably other mounts that aren't trained for combat). A combat-ready mount is only a DC5 check to guide with your knees as a free action.

Yes. Of course. I've been playing a gnome druid mounted on a riding dog, but have been wildshaped a lot lately.

As I wrote that I was thinking to myself "DC 20? I haven't been making that kind of check. I've been playing that all wrong!". But now you say that I recall that this is why I got 5 ranks in ride, so I wouldn't have to make that skill check.

[Segev]

A ranger with a mount-able animal companion can do interesting things with Lion's Charge while mounted. He can Share Spells it with his mount, and thus allow the mount a full attack at the end. It's murkier whether the Ranger himself gets a full attack; one can argue either way under the RAW whether the Ranger counts as hving "charged."

[Necroticplague]

Interesting, thanks for the replies.
Although a handbook online says it allows it, i am not convinced a crinti marauder teleporting takes its mount with it, does it?

Not when she teleports in general, but her Shadow ride ability specifically lets her (actually, requires her) to be on her mount. Some teleporting spell do let you take other creatures along as well. For example, the Dimension Door spell lets you lug along willing creatures (and, given it's precision, it's pretty much the default combat teleporting spell).

[nyjastul69]

These (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a) articles (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a) may (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a) be (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050215a) helpful (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050222a)

[Andezzar]

Well, a mount can't normally use its natural attacks on your charge, because it is on your initiative count, so there's that.That's wrong.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.The mount acts on the rider's turn. It is debatable however whether the rider can charge on the back of a mount.

[j_spencer93]

thanks helps loads

[Troacctid]

I don't see much room for debate as to whether you can charge from the back of a mount. The mount can charge, and you get the attack bonus and AC penalty for it if it does, but you can't, unless you dismount first.

[Bronk]

That's wrong.The mount acts on the rider's turn. It is debatable however whether the rider can charge on the back of a mount.

Thanks, but that's exactly what I said.

[Andezzar]

I don't see much room for debate as to whether you can charge from the back of a mount. The mount can charge, and you get the attack bonus and AC penalty for it if it does, but you can't, unless you dismount first.If you can guide the horse as a free action, nothing prevents you from using Full Round Actions. A Charge is a Full Round Action, which requires you to move at least 10' in a straight line towards the target. It does not specify that the charger must do so on his own power.

The Spirited Charge feat also implies that the rider can charge, otherwise the feat would not work at all.
When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

It gets interesting with Pounce. Mounted Full Attacks with melee weapons are explicitly forbidden (this would include a Full Attack on a charge), but so is a getting more than one attack on a foot-slogging charge. Pounce explicitly allows a Full attack on a charge. So you have to decide whether pounce overwrites the rules for mounted combat as it overwrites the rules for non-mounted charges.

[soapdude]

I don't see much room for debate as to whether you can charge from the back of a mount. The mount can charge, and you get the attack bonus and AC penalty for it if it does, but you can't, unless you dismount first.

Then how do you get extra damage with a lance? Or can you only get extra damage with a lance if you charge with it while running? That doesn't make much sense.

[Segev]

I think you mean that you can't have your mount move more than 5 ft. and then have your PC make a full attack; I don't recall any rules forbidding, say, a mounted character who starts his turn in melee with his target(s) from making a full attack action in melee.

[Darrin]

Then how do you get extra damage with a lance?

Particularly against medium-sized opponents, when you have to wait for your mount to get to the closest square, which puts your target inside of the reach of your lance.

[Hiro Quester]

I think you mean that you can't have your mount move more than 5 ft. and then have your PC make a full attack; I don't recall any rules forbidding, say, a mounted character who starts his turn in melee with his target(s) from making a full attack action in melee.

yes.


Fight with Warhorse
If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

But also this:



Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks
A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

It's unclear how this interacts with the character having pounce. I would interpret pounce as the character knowinghow to integrate running in fast with attacking, such that they still get a full round attack if they charge.

A mounted charge would require an entirely different kind of integration.

If I was your DM, I might decide that some skill and feat energy might apply here. E.g. if you had pounce and rideby attack and spirited charge, and X many ranks invested in the ride skill, then you could get a full attack (but double damage from spirited charge on only the first). But that would be house ruling it. I don't see a good way to do it RAW.

[Necroticplague]

If you can guide the horse as a free action, nothing prevents you from using Full Round Actions. A Charge is a Full Round Action, which requires you to move at least 10' in a straight line towards the target. It does not specify that the charger must do so on his own power.

The Spirited Charge feat also implies that the rider can charge, otherwise the feat would not work at all.

It gets interesting with Pounce. Mounted Full Attacks with melee weapons are explicitly forbidden (this would include a Full Attack on a charge), but so is a getting more than one attack on a foot-slogging charge. Pounce explicitly allows a Full attack on a charge. So you have to decide whether pounce overwrites the rules for mounted combat as it overwrites the rules for non-mounted charges.

I think that the limit of only one melee attack while your mount is moving and the limit of one attack while you're charging are separate limits. Pounce gets rid of one of them, but not the other.