Ways to gain Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)?

[Theomniadept]

I'm starting in a game where the party is effectively of noble birth. For specifics I'm a Halfling Rogue1/Swashbuckler 3, and if need be I can go into my whole build but I don't think that'll be necessary for this.

Since we're playing directly with nobles (and sometimes the King himself) Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) is probably a must. My only issue is that cross-class skills in 3.5 are -painful- and aside from dipping a level in Wizard/Bard/Factotum/Duskblade/Cloistered Cleric or taking Knowledge Devotion (using one of our valuable feats) I don't know effective ways of gaining this knowledge. Obviously I know some ways but they don't mesh with my extremely feat-intensive build and they also might not mesh with other party members. Any ideas?

[Urpriest]

If you're not willing to either take a feat or dip a class level, then it's going to be very hard to pick up a new class skill. Does your build eventually have access to magic? That might at least offer some hope.

[Bayar]

There is a variant rule in Cityscape that grants bonus class skills based on your social status (page 59). Ask your DM if you all could use that variant rule.

[Zaq]

Yeah, class levels and feats are basically the only ways of getting new skills as class skills.

Changeling Rogue Substitution Levels can get you one Knowledge skill of your choice as a Rogue class skill, but (1) that involves being a changeling (and I imagine you want to stay a halfling) and (2) that only applies to the substitution levels themselves, not to all Rogue levels (which is still enough to get your max ranks up to level + 3, but you'd have to pay cross-class for it at levels that aren't specifically substitution levels).

You might look into magic items to get your bonuses up. You'll still have to throw at least one rank into it to be considered trained, but if you can get an item giving you enough bonuses to be worth trying, that's pretty much almost as good as having ranks in it. Beyond that, I think you'll just have to suck it up and pay for cross-class ranks.

[Telonius]

You have no spare feats, period? Even one feat could go a long way.

"Feat-Intensive," and the build so far, does suggest you're going something like a Daring Outlaw TWF build. Do you have access to Tome of Battle? A single-level dip in Swordsage could get Know(Nobility) on your list, as well as some nice Shadow Hand stuff to go along with your TWF (if that's what you're doing).

[Psyren]

See if your GM will allow traits from PF maybe? Secret Knowledge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/secret-knowledge), Teacher's Pet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/carrion-crown/teacher-s-pet), and several others will do this.

[Spore]

Go for "Profession (Noble)"? I gave my players an additional skill point to use in Profession or Craft skills (because these are direly underused) and I would allow the noble Slyph to roll Profession (Noble) instead of her non-existant Knowledge Royalty and Knowledge Local.

[Afgncaap5]

I'd say the variant rules in Cityscape are the way to go, or if you can get much leeway at all take one of the feats that let you take new skills (Education, for instance, though I think you can only get that at level one.)

If your DM won't go for that, suggest this: see if you can find an apothecary/alchemist/wizard/sage who specializes in educating princes and nobility who don't want to take the required work to study. Have them make an Oil of Scholar's Touch (Races of Destiny, pg. 167), empowered to be a 3rd level spell with a caster level of 5. Then collect 5 books that the scholar/sage/apothecary/whatever considers to be the essential tomes on nobility and royal tradition. Spend half a minute rubbing the covers of the five books with the oil with your bare hand (so that both you and the book are touching the oil). Suggest to your DM that this boost wouldn't give you any modifiers in the skill per se so much as it might give your character the essential grounding required to begin putting points into that skill.

There are some obvious rule violations here, of course: first of all, the Scholar's Touch spell is *never* suggested as something that can give a grounding required as a basis for a skill; that's why we're Empowering it and also having the teacher/wizard/alchemist/guy suggest five "essentials" so that there's some wiggle room for our phlebotinum to be applicable by your DM's standards. Second, Potions can never (by RAW) be made from a spell with a range of Personal, and Scholar's Touch is such a spell (that's why we're specifying an oil that both you and the book physically touch, so that the book could arguably be both a "caster" and a "target" as you are; this is ridiculously unsupported in the rules to the point that you should probably stop reading this now. If you're still reading, this is also why the wizard/sage guy is also an alchemist/apothecary guy, so that he can put some alchemical oomph into the development of the potion.) There's some other rule violations here (I think, it's hard to measure at a certain point) but those are the two big ones. It's very, very likely that a DM would rather use the variant rules in Cityscape at this point, but on the weird chance that your DM is against Cityscape but in favor of this, here's a suggested price breakdown:

Potion cost: 750 gp (3rd level spell X CL 5 X 50 gp)
Alchemical item cost: 750 gp (No RAW rationale, based on potion cost; basically, this potion has an Alchemical component similar to the Masterwork component of a masterwork weapon that must be created separately.)
NPC casting a spell: 150 gp (CL 5 X 30 gp)
Hireling Costs: 32 gp 2 sp = (Alchemist (1 gp) + Apothecary (1 gp) + Bookbinder (3sp) + Embalmer (why not? 3 sp) + Sage (2 gp)) X 7; Rather than assuming that this guy works for just the most expensive pertinent job (netting him 2 gp per day as per the Arms & Equipment Guide, pgs. 61-64), I'm assuming this guy is specialized enough to be worth much more than that. As such, I'm paying him for a full week's work for several related jobs (it may be better just to round it up to 50 gp, even). Embalmer I put because of the relationship between oils, leathers and human skin (and this process involves a magical oil, a bare hand, and presumably leather-bound books) but any number of other menial jobs could go there (taxidermist, tanner, parchmentmaker, etc.) Also, while it's true that crafting an alchemical item of 750 gp in just a week is unlikely, we're also assuming he does this kind of thing semi-regularly, so part of our extra payment is for the convenience of not having to worry about funding him for the better part of a month while he crafts.)

Pre-Total: 1682 gp 2 sp or 1700 gp
+ 20%: 336 gp, 4 sp, 4 cp or 340 gp (Why? Because we're really not doing anything by RAW here, this is more pain-reliever for the GM you're suggesting it all to.)
Spellcasting Total: 2018 gp, 5 sp, 4 cp or 2040 gp (Maybe 2050 to make math easier. At this point, will an extra 10 gp hurt anything?)

Other Expense: 50-ish gp per book (based on the price of rare books in the Draconomicon, pg. 281)

So, one Potion of Royal Knowledge to open up the class skill in this method will cost you a shade over 2k in gold (plus the vow of secrecy for cheating your way like this, a business that could ruin (or at least put a dark mark upon) the reputations of many non-studious nobles who've neglected their classes, effectively putting you on some people's hit lists if the secret is ever revealed) plus an extra 250-ish for five rare books that are required for the potion to be any good whatsoever (you might be able to get by just renting or borrowing these, however.) (Note that this Potion of Royal Knowledge is only intended for the Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) skill, and that attempting to use it for something completely unrelated, like Knowledge (History) with five History books may cause a mishap including but not limited to an explosion, mini-curse, rampant memory loss, or inability to drink any but the finest foods without becoming nauseated. The Potion of Historical Knowledge is *entirely* different, even if it looks mechanically similar in every way.)



...or you could just use the alternate Cityscape rules. ...yeah, do that instead.

[Der_DWSage]

The main feat I'd think of is Educated, from the Eberron Campaign Setting. All Knowledges become class skills, including Nobility.

I...suppose you could sit awhile in an Otyugh hole and retrain it afterwards? Maybe ask if he'll let you have a Pathfinder Headband of Intellect that grants full ranks in a skill at an increased price? Say 'Screw this for a box of soldiers' and get a ring of +20 Knowledge(Nobility) to put yourself on even ground? Have someone Mindrape all knowledge of the current nobility into your head? Ask if you can take a Flaw for Knowledge(Nobility)?

It's kinda difficult to get a class skill when you want to spend neither feats nor class levels.

[Theomniadept]

I didn't say I wasn't willing to take a feat or class level, just that it might not mesh with my build. As it stands my two flaws and feats are all geared towards TWF dagger-throwing, so that's archery AND TWF feats, which I am basically class-jumping to get. I'm on lunch now but IIRC Invisible Blade 1 gives me Quick Draw, Master Thrower 1 gives me some feat, and I was aiming for Whisperknife. That said, since Weapon Focus (Dagger) is necessary I may dip that Swordsage level and get some Shadow Hand stuff. Educated sounds like a good feat too, so while Swordsage gives me a lwg up that feat and/or the Cityscape rule can help the others.

[Thurbane]

You can get a bonus feat with a Faustian Pact (FC II). :smalltongue:

[Story]

The Frog God's Phane variant can get you Skill Focus: Knowledge N&R. Still won't help with getting it as a class skill though.

[mabriss lethe]

You could also retain the services of an advisor (AKA: Trained Hireling, probably an expert) who specializes in knowledges and briefs you on all the important things you need to know before you go to meet with important people.

[Umberhulk]

Cross class skill? It sucks but it still counts as a trained skill.

[Segev]

Perhaps a level of Wizard? You could focus on spells like Unseen Servant (to pick up and bring back your thrown knives, and even hand them back to you!) and silent image. You know your cover is an illusion, so you can see through it, but until they notice and make their saves, it can give you total concealment. A later level of Arcane Trickster could get you ranged legerdemain, as well, if you like the rogue-skills side of things.

This would give you all Knowledge skills as class skills, for at least the level(s) of Wizard you take.

As a rogue, too, you can get UMD. I suggest doing so. There's a Paladin spell, Divine Guidance, which lasts for hours and lets you pop it during its duration for a +CL (usually 14, I think, by the time a Paladin can cast it) to a skill check. It is NOT a competence bonus, so will stack with the most common kind of skill bonus. Get a wand of that.

[Theomniadept]

I'm actually thinking between Island of Blades and Assassin's Stance I'm better off dipping a level of Swordsage myself. I think I'll toss that variant rule towards the DM and if that fails the Educated feat seems pretty straightforward. Sure, as a Rogue with 18 INT I myself could eat up cross-class ranks but others in my party would suffer (like my Hexblade friend and his 2 + derp skill points) so I wanted ideas for them as well, just because it would make no sense that some guy could be a noble and barely know who the king was.

[Afgncaap5]

You might have a feat slot? I'd definitely take Educated, then. Might be rough build-wise, but it'll be the most straightforward way, I think.


Cross class skill? It sucks but it still counts as a trained skill.

I've always been vague on what constitutes "trained" or not. If a skill has "Trained Only" like Knowledges or UMD or Tumble, is it effectively impossible to put cross-class ranks into it until you get "training" in it somehow? Or does it just follow regular cross-class rules, and only net you a half-rank per skill point even from the outset? (I've had three different DMs do it three different ways, one of them picking certain skills to be *extra* trained-only. It's weird.)

[Thurbane]

Trained only means you need at least one rank invested in the skill to use it (unlike, say, Swim, which you can use untrained [which becomes more-or-less a Strength check, modified by armor]). If it's a cross-class skill, this means you need to invest 2 skill points, rather than one.

[Afgncaap5]

Trained only means you need at least one rank invested in the skill to use it (unlike, say, Swim, which you can use untrained [which becomes more-or-less a Strength check, modified by armor]). If it's a cross-class skill, this means you need to invest 2 skill points, rather than one.

So no restrictions on someone taking one of those skills prior to being in a class that grants 'em? Hmm... either one and a half of my DMs were mistaken, or using house rules. Explains why it never seemed to mash up with the RAW, at least. Thanks.

[Hiro Quester]

DMGII also includes the Apprentice feat. Better than the educated feat at least.

Apprentice costs you 100 gold at first level (tithes to your master and guild). But it gives you +2 to a couple of skills and one or two more become in-class skills.

Apprentice philosopher gets any one knowledge skilland sense motive as in-class skills, as well +2 to to concentration checks and will saves. Do you fancy being a philosophical swashbuckler?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/44844559.jpg
If not, perhaps you and your DM could work out a variant apprenticeship for you, such as Apprentice high-end merchant, such that you get something like +2 to appraise and diplomacy, and knowledge (nobility) and knowledge (local) as in-class skills?

Further edit: I just remembered that Julio Scoundrél does that meme too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html). Probably where the one I spoiled above was copied from.

[Psyren]

Apprentice is better on paper, but the RP requirements can be a tough sell for some.

[Curmudgeon]

So no restrictions on someone taking one of those skills prior to being in a class that grants 'em? Hmm... either one and a half of my DMs were mistaken, or using house rules.
3.0 D&D had exclusive skills, like Use Magic Device could not be obtained without levels in Rogue or Bard. Maybe your DMs yearn for that older rule.

[SinsI]

Why not replace Rogue with Factotum?

[Curmudgeon]

Why not replace Rogue with Factotum?
Because there are no multiclassing feats for Factotum, while there is such a feat for the Rogue/Swashbuckler combo (Daring Outlaw).

[ericgrau]

Just because you are a noble doesn't mean you have special education and knowledge about nobles, at least not beyond the basics. Put in one rank and call it a day. You don't need the skill to be effective in the campaign either when the rest of the party has it. If I didn't assume that all nobles have a basic education, I would say to put in zero ranks.

I'm in an all sorcerer party without any knowledge arcana and I haven't missed it for a second nor have I ever let the party down nor have we ever missed a check. If anything I'd overcrowd the talking if I added in a 5th roll.

Knowledge local for example will be a heck of a lot more useful in your party. It gives much more practical knowledge about humanoids, customs, weaknesses, special abilities and etc. rather than who their 7th ancestor was and what he did.

[ShurikVch]

For completeness's sake:

Flexible Mind [Anarchic] (Dragon #326) - choose two skills you have ranks in. The chosen skills are always considered class skills for you. In addition, you receive a +1 bonus on all checks involving these skills.

Academy Graduate (https://paizo.com/dungeonissues/SavageTide/SavageTide_HR.pdf) (pg. 10):
You attended one of several academies in this district, during which you were schooled in the finer arts of being an aristocrat.
Prerequisite: 1st level only.
District: Noble.
Benefit:
Pick any three Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills. These three skills are always considered class skills for you.
In addition, you gain a +2 bonus on Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (nobility and royalty) checks, and may use these skills untrained.

[nedz]

Try these

Education – Ebberon Campaign setting
Draconic Knowledge, (requires Draconic heritage) - Dragon Magic
Apprentice (philosopher) - DMG II
Apprentice (spellcaster) - DMG II
Knowlege Devotion (feat) - Complete Champion
Primordial Giant (template) - Secrets of Xen'drik