Which animals are (not) "ill suited as a mount"?

[Hiro Quester]

The ride skill says this:


If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a -5 penalty on your Ride checks.


Which animals does that cover? Is that about physiology or training?

If I train an animal for combat riding, does that make it no longer "ill suited as a mount"?

More specifically, a tiger (the new Animal Companion my gnome druid will get next level-up) would seem ill suited as a mount.

But does training it for combat riding (and getting a special-made military saddle for it) make it now suitable for use as a mount?

[Psyren]

It's left vague for the GM to determine. Personally I would say that a tiger is perfectly fine.

"ill-suited" can (and should) refer more to biology - like a biped or an ooze. No amount of training will overcome that.

[Spore]

I would go for anything that has less than 4 legs. A crippled horse (three legs) is ill-suited, as is an ostrich. Everything else is just training.

[hamishspence]

I would go for anything that has less than 4 legs. A crippled horse (three legs) is ill-suited, as is an ostrich.

Ostrich racing is a thing though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrich#Racing

[Flickerdart]

The DMG rules on alternate mounts for paladins go into a little bit of detail about the body shape that makes an animal a suitable mount and has some examples (IIRC the example they give for a mount able to carry a rider is that a horse is fine, but a giant is not).

[Roog]

More specifically, a tiger (the new Animal Companion my gnome druid will get next level-up) would seem ill suited as a mount.

While it could be argued that a tiger is ill suited as a mount (arguing from realism), there is a very similar alternative animal companion where that argument does not apply.

The Warcat of Rull from "Belkzen, Hold of the Orc Hordes" (just Warcat on D20PFSRD), whose description states "These beasts often act as mounts for the clan’s champions".
The statwize differences between the two are pretty small. The Warcat has 3 more NAC, and stats before advancement of Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 5 (rather than Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10).

#Edit
This assumes PF, if not playing PF then ignore my comments.

[Ruethgar]

There are some two legged dinosaurs in Ebberon that specifically say they are suitable as normal saddled mounts despite being undoubtedly exotic creatures.

[nyjastul69]

How about a dire bat? Would one be considered I'll suited as a mount?

[Hiro Quester]

Ah. DMG p. 204 (thanks Flickerdart) gives criteria for unusual mounts. Including that the animal must be:


Able and willing to carry its rider in a typical fashion. (A camel is able and willing. A tiger might be capable but may not be willing. A giant might be willing but not truly able.)

So presumably a druid's animal companion would be more willing than a typical tiger. Esp. with training. Okay. I can work with that.

Edit: I think dire bat is often used as a flying mount.
And I once considered a deinonychus. As a player I think that would be rather cool. But my character has a thing for big cats. So tiger.

[Thurbane]

It's left vague for the GM to determine. Personally I would say that a tiger is perfectly fine.

Dio concurs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6TCQLfcYo8)

http://images1.tickld.com/live/833627.jpg

[Lorddenorstrus]

I would agree on the sentiment of it being mostly to the DM. I mean one DM I had let me make a Kobold sorcerer who rode upon the back of his Troll cohort Fred into battle. But a lot of other DM's I've mentioned the character to have basically told me i'm bloody insane and they'd never allow that.

[Flickerdart]

Dio concurs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6TCQLfcYo8)

http://images1.tickld.com/live/833627.jpg
That's really not the Dio I was expecting...
http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx6/game/jjba-asb/dio-brando-jjba-asb.png

[ShurikVch]

More specifically, a tiger (the new Animal Companion my gnome druid will get next level-up) would seem ill suited as a mount.http://th05.deviantart.net/fs42/PRE/f/2009/100/7/3/Commission_WoW_Tiger_Rider_by_LRCommissions.jpg


"ill-suited" can (and should) refer more to biology - like a biped or an ooze. No amount of training will overcome that.http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg30/scaled.php?server=30&filename=dnd20watercolor20riding.jpg&res=medium


I would go for anything that has less than 4 legs. A crippled horse (three legs) is ill-suited, as is an ostrich. Everything else is just training.http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131228033702/finalfantasy/images/3/38/Chocobo-riding-FFXIII-2.JPG

[Spore]

It has been done in a Fantasy world doesn't mean that it doesn't still incur penalties. Also a Chocobo is far friendly and more relaxed than your typical ostrich.

[ShurikVch]

It has been done in a Fantasy world doesn't mean that it doesn't still incur penalties. Also a Chocobo is far friendly and more relaxed than your typical ostrich. I'm not arguing about the ostrich's temper, but:

1) If you ride an animal, you probably have some measure of control over it. It's not like you may just catch some beast and ride it "as is", even if it a wild horse, camel, or elephant

2) Your post said only about the number of legs. I pointed there is example when mount with only 2 legs works just fine

(And Chocobo used as mount not just in FF)

Also, there was quote about Giant as unsuitable mount. Despite it being RAW accurate... http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iutHeL_eNGg/hqdefault.jpghttp://25.media.tumblr.com/7b1f71cd694153e2bddb5ab7aabee972/tumblr_mmfpz32K2c1s905vio1_500.jpg http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/images/3/3e/Mon-thresh01.jpg

[Flickerdart]

Also, there was quote about Giant as unsuitable mount. Despite it being RAW accurate... http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iutHeL_eNGg/hqdefault.jpghttp://25.media.tumblr.com/7b1f71cd694153e2bddb5ab7aabee972/tumblr_mmfpz32K2c1s905vio1_500.jpg http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/images/3/3e/Mon-thresh01.jpg
It seems entirely reasonable that someone sitting on a giant like that would suffer the -5 penalty to Ride - a creature like that would be much less stable than a quadrupedal or avian mount, and having nothing to hold on to but its head would make a lot of things very tricky.

[Blackhawk748]

I would agree on the sentiment of it being mostly to the DM. I mean one DM I had let me make a Kobold sorcerer who rode upon the back of his Troll cohort Fred into battle. But a lot of other DM's I've mentioned the character to have basically told me i'm bloody insane and they'd never allow that.

And those DMs are lame, Goblins and Kobolds have been riding Large humanoids into battle for a very long time in fantasy. Its like goblins riding wolves, its classic.

[Hiro Quester]

It seems entirely reasonable that someone sitting on a giant like that would suffer the -5 penalty to Ride - a creature like that would be much less stable than a quadrupedal or avian mount, and having nothing to hold on to but its head would make a lot of things very tricky.

Probably a - 5 to ride, plus another -5 for riding bareback. Can you get a military saddle for a giant?

[Spore]

And those DMs are lame, Goblins and Kobolds have been riding Large humanoids into battle for a very long time in fantasy. Its like goblins riding wolves, its classic.

Sitting on a large creature without means to steer it don't qualify as riding in my books. It's like the Goblin that sat on my Catfolk Monk's back. He was calling it riding but my PC would BEG to differ.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Sitting on a large creature without means to steer it don't qualify as riding in my books. It's like the Goblin that sat on my Catfolk Monk's back. He was calling it riding but my PC would BEG to differ.

Yeah I had Telepathy on the Sorcerer from Mind Bender, so the DM who allowed me to make the character had no problem with me directing us both around the Battlefield. I'm playin 2 characters in that campaign pretty much. It's fairly simple since all Fred does is move, 70 land or 140 from the Wings I grafted on him *cough* (Yes I had to make a special sort of saddle so as not to get in the way) and then punch things every round.

[ericgrau]

As for ill suited for a mount it is up to the DM but I think it boils down to "can you sit on it comfortably?". Rider a creature's shoulders = -5 IMO. Anything with a large enough horizontal backside = no -5 IMO. Ooze = -lol no IMO.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think there's a howdah in the AaEG, which iirc will let you ride basically anything that's several sizes larger. If you're not looking to "ride" a creature per se, then there might be a rule somewhere for a palanquin or to use any sort of creature as a draft creature. For creatures with the swallow whole ability, gaining immunity to acid+ bludgeoning and then casting chain of eyes or similar will effectively make a mount.

Perhaps even the tauric template would let you ride any given creature, given that one half is an acceptable mount, but you'd have to look at the wording (afb).

Other items like the amulet of ooze riding (AaEG) might set precedent for a custom magic item that could work for an arbitrary creature as well.

[MyrPsychologist]

I distinctly remember an "ooze saddle" item from one of the books in 3.5. Owning such an item should definitely make an ooze a suitable mount.

[ShurikVch]

Rider a creature's shoulders = -5 IMO. Anything with a large enough horizontal backside = no -5 IMO.Is Krootox (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Tau-Empire-Krootox) good enough?
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99810113010_KrootoxNEW01.jpgHow about the Ferra & Torr (http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Ferra_%26_Torr)?http://static.gosunoob.com/img/1/2015/04/FERRA-TORR-MASTER-AND-SERVANT-1024x541.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLf32DxdGo

Ooze = -lol no IMO.The Oozerider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11824326&postcount=5) (from the Demonic_Spoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?62241-Demonic_Spoon))

[ericgrau]

Is Krootox (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Tau-Empire-Krootox) good enough?
http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99810113010_KrootoxNEW01.jpgHow about the Ferra & Torr (http://mortalkombat.wikia.com/wiki/Ferra_%26_Torr)?http://static.gosunoob.com/img/1/2015/04/FERRA-TORR-MASTER-AND-SERVANT-1024x541.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoLf32DxdGo
The Oozerider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11824326&postcount=5) (from the Demonic_Spoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?62241-Demonic_Spoon))
Krootox: Just my opinion and opinions will vary, but the way he is standing seems only good for a pose. It looks like an impressive feat of balance in fact that makes the pose likewise look impressive. Once that thing's legs start moving it looks extremely difficult as his butt will start moving up and down rapidly and his feet are not at all tied to it. So IMO -5 for ill suited as a mount plus another -5 for no saddle. But hey, the rider could have a lot of ranks and you really only need a +4 to auto-pass the important parts of riding. So a +14 before penalties and he's good to go to auto-pass the important checks, and even a +9 is pretty manageable. If he's level 2 and has a really nice racial dex then that's a +7. Throw in a +2 racial bonus to riding krootox and he's ok. Or a feat makes his odds even better. Again, this is all opinion and so on.

Torr: Same deal but handholds and a place to sit might count as close enough to a saddle. Except I'm not sure you should roll ride checks in this case. Maybe to avoid falling off due to taking damage (DC 5), but beyond that simple verbal communication should be plenty.

Oozerider: Magic lets you ride the ooze. I meant by default, where you simply fall into the ooze and no ride check saves you from that.

[N810]

I recently acquired an unusual item from a boss fight,
it's a small stature that when the magic word is said it transforms
into a full sized ankylosaurus http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kY-peYQGL._SY300_.jpg :smalleek:

I was wondering if this sort of creature could be ridden by my Half-Ork Barbarian. :redcloak:
(who has already climbed on large monster to hit them with his great ax better.)

[Telonius]

I am really getting the urge to stat up a Joust ostrich now.

[SowZ]

How about a dire bat? Would one be considered I'll suited as a mount?

Dire Bat's make great mounts, but must be ridden from the bottom with the rider clinging to the talons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvicLz4wLn8

[(Un)Inspired]

Wait, WTF? Bipeds are unsuitable mounts?! Has no one here given or received a piggyback ride?

Plus, if you're sitting on something's shoulders it's head is like a built in saddle pommel. +10 to ride checks.

Slap a saddle on Hagrid's shoulders and shove a bit in his mouth. It's gotta be a hellova lot less bumpy of a ride than being on the back of a griffin or something.

[Psyren]

It's left vague for the GM to determine.

If bipeds are fine for you, go nuts.

[noob]

I think all mounts who are not chickens are ill suited the proof is that only an ill person would do something as dangerous as riding an horse who wants to kill him.
Maybe the riding dog is fitting too because it is in its name.

[Flickerdart]

Wait, WTF? Bipeds are unsuitable mounts?! Has no one here given or received a piggyback ride?
A piggyback ride is exactly the kind of riding that deserves a -5 or even -10 penalty - you have zero leverage on anything, your "mount" is carrying you with its hands rather than its back, your centre of gravity is high and wobbly.



Plus, if you're sitting on something's shoulders it's head is like a built in saddle pommel. +10 to ride checks.

Slap a saddle on Hagrid's shoulders and shove a bit in his mouth. It's gotta be a hellova lot less bumpy of a ride than being on the back of a griffin or something.
Attaching ~200lbs to Hagrid's neck is a great way to snap it clear off.

[Tiktik Ironclaw]

Still, Rich illustrated perfectly for us (in the Adventure Game) that kobold knights are perfectly able to ride on ogreback...if appropriate potty breaks are allowed.

[(Un)Inspired]

A piggyback ride is exactly the kind of riding that deserves a -5 or even -10 penalty - you have zero leverage on anything, your "mount" is carrying you with its hands rather than its back, your centre of gravity is high and wobbly.

I've got leverage on all kinds of things we I'm doing piggyback stuff. The human body is full of levers and piggybacking uses a ton of them. Where in the rules does it say that a mount must use it back instead of its hands?

Perhaps your piggybacking mounts haven't been authentically "willing" in the past so they have seemed unsuitable.



Attaching ~200lbs to Hagrid's neck is a great way to snap it clear off.

Attaching ~200lbs to most medium-large (depending on your personal Hagrid's mass) is gonna induce bad times. I'm not sure where you idea for doing so springs from. I mentioned riding on a mount's shoulders...

[Magma Armor0]

Quick Question:
How does PHB page 80 interact with DMG page 204?

PHB says

If you attempt to ride a
creature that is ill suited as a mount (such as most bipedal creatures),
you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.

and DMG says


Suitable Mounts: You have the final decision on what is or is
not a suitable mount. At its most basic level, a mount should have
the following characteristics:
Able and willing to carry its rider in a typical fashion.

At least one size category larger than the character. Also, a
flying mount can carry no more than a light load aloft.

The mount’s Challenge Rating should be no more than 3 less
than the rider’s character level. If the mount can fly, its
Challenge Rating should be no more than 4 less than the rider’s
character level.


If a desired mount does not fit any of the characteristics from the DMG, does that mean that it cannot be ridden at all, or just that it applies the -5 penalty from the PHB?

[MukkTB]

I've carried around a lot of **** on my back, including small humans. Its certainly not a problem, although I wouldn't want to go into combat that way.

For me the question is if it would count as riding, or simply being carried. I would be inclined to say that it didn't count for the purposes of lances or stuff like that. On the other hand I would not force ride checks to stay in the saddle and that kind of thing. You're being carried and held by at least one hand probably.

[Psyren]

Quick Question:
How does PHB page 80 interact with DMG page 204?

PHB says


and DMG says



If a desired mount does not fit any of the characteristics from the DMG, does that mean that it cannot be ridden at all, or just that it applies the -5 penalty from the PHB?

Some are hard limits, e.g. the size category thing. You simply cannot ride something equal to you in size or smaller, even with a penalty - no ogres riding pixies into battle, even super-strong pixies.

Others are up to GM determination, like the "in a typical fashion" clause.

[prufock]

Ostrich racing is a thing though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrich#Racing

They're not really mounted, though, they're pulling a buggy.

[Flickerdart]

Attaching ~200lbs to most medium-large (depending on your personal Hagrid's mass) is gonna induce bad times. I'm not sure where you idea for doing so springs from. I mentioned riding on a mount's shoulders...
And holding onto its head, yes. Because the shoulders aren't horizontal like a horse's back, you need to do that to avoid falling off during anything but a gentle, wobbling walk.

[(Un)Inspired]

And holding onto its head, yes. Because the shoulders aren't horizontal like a horse's back, you need to do that to avoid falling off during anything but a gentle, wobbling walk.

You gotta use the head like a pommel; you don't hold into it, you tie you lasso to it after you've roped something.

You hold on by squeezing the front of the gorse with you legs as they Snagglepus down and by gripping the slight curvature of your Hagrid's spine with your clenched buttocks.

[ShurikVch]

I'm too lazy now, so there is a link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HorseOfADifferentColor) to TV Tropes article "Horse of a Different Color" - see part "Flightless Birds and Other Bipeds"

They're not really mounted, though, they're pulling a buggy.Quote from Wikipedia article:
The ostriches are ridden in the same way as horses with special saddles, reins, and bits.Buggy don't need a saddle :smallwink:

[atemu1234]

I liked the Dio reference. These threads need more of them.

[Flickerdart]

You gotta use the head like a pommel; you don't hold into it, you tie you lasso to it after you've roped something.

You hold on by squeezing the front of the gorse with you legs as they Snagglepus down and by gripping the slight curvature of your Hagrid's spine with your clenched buttocks.
Any plan that requires you to grip something with your buttocks deserves a -5 on the check.

[Psyren]

Any plan that requires you to grip something with your buttocks deserves a -5 on the check.

...giggity :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Any plan that requires you to grip something with your buttocks deserves a -5 on the check.

There goes my triple weapon fighting plan.

They never expect an attack from the rear.


Edit: Ugh I can't believe I actually posted that.

[atemu1234]

There goes my triple weapon fighting plan.

They never expect an attack from the rear.


Edit: Ugh I can't believe I actually posted that.

And now that I've quoted you, you can't delete it. It is a treasure that will be passed down to future generations.

[Magma Armor0]

Also, what the heck is up with this line from the DMG (again page 204)


The mount’s Challenge Rating should be no more than 3 less
than the rider’s character level. If the mount can fly, its
Challenge Rating should be no more than 4 less than the rider’s
character level.

I see two ways of parsing this sentence. Either
A. the mount's level (y) cannot exceed the character's level (x) minus 3, such that y<=x-3 OR
B. the mount's level cannot be more than 3 less than the character's level, such that y>=x-3

The weird thing is, A means that a level 1 character--or a level 3 character for that matter, cannot ride a horse. period.

B means that a level 5 character can no longer ride the horse that he's ridden all his life.

What is this sentence trying to do? I think I can see that the RAI is that a level 1 commoner shouldn't ride a dragon, but they just seem to have screwed up the implementation of that royally.

[Uncle Pine]

Which animals does that cover? Is that about physiology or training?
Both.

If trained to do so, the following SRD animals should be able to be ridden by appropriately sized characters:

- ape

- ape, dire

- badger

- badger, dire

- bat

- bat, dire

- bear, black

- bear, brown

- bear, dire

- bear, polar

- bison

- boar

- boar, dire

- camel

- cat

- cheetah

- crocodile

- crocodile, giant

- deinonychus
- demon, succubus
- dog

- dog, riding

- donkey

- eagle

- elasmosaurus

- elephant

- hawk

- horse (all varieties)

- hyena

- leopard

- lion

- lion, dire

- lizard

- lizard, monitor

- manta ray

- megaraptor

- mule
- nymph
- owl

- pony (all varieties)

- porpoise

- rat

- rat, dire

- raven

- rhinoceros

- shark

- shark, dire

- snake (all varieties)

- tiger

- tiger, dire

- triceratops

- toad

- tyrannosaurus

- weasel

- weasel, dire

- whale (all varieties)

- wolf

- wolf, dire

- wolverine

- wolverine, dire

[Flickerdart]

Also, what the heck is up with this line from the DMG (again page 204)



I see two ways of parsing this sentence. Either
A. the mount's level (y) cannot exceed the character's level (x) minus 3, such that y<=x-3 OR
B. the mount's level cannot be more than 3 less than the character's level, such that y>=x-3

The weird thing is, A means that a level 1 character--or a level 3 character for that matter, cannot ride a horse. period.

B means that a level 5 character can no longer ride the horse that he's ridden all his life.

What is this sentence trying to do? I think I can see that the RAI is that a level 1 commoner shouldn't ride a dragon, but they just seem to have screwed up the implementation of that royally.
The paragraph immediately before that part makes everything very clear:

"If the PCs undertake more wilderness adventures than dungeon treks, mounts may be integral parts of the party, and you may face requests for mounts other than horses. Druids and rangers may attract animal companions big enough to act as mounts. Paladins may desire something a bit tougher than their typical heavy warhorse or warpony."

So the guidelines are for druids, rangers, and paladins trying to get fancier mounts. I suppose you could also apply it to requests like "I want to buy a rhinoceros" though.