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View Full Version : Pathfinder Pathfinder Underped - Multiclass Variant... Variant [PEACH]



Xerlith
2015-04-30, 04:26 PM
So, Unchained's out. And as far as I know, the multiclassing thingy has issues. Serious ones. So here's my take on creating something bit different. Variant of a variant, i call it mini-gestalt.

Variant Multiclassing

Sometimes a character wants to pursue a secondary vocation without diluting their primary classes abilities. This variant allows them to do so, while in exchange lessening their access to breadth of general abilities.

A character playing a standard progression character with this variant rule allowed gains +2 instead of the standard +1 ability increases at levels divisible by four.

A character deciding to use the Multiclass Variant forgoes the feats they'd normally gain at 3rd, 7th, 11th and 15th level.

In return, they may pick one base class, further called an Auxiliary Class. On every odd character level they advance in this class as well as in the class they took normally. On such a level they pick the better of both classes' save, Hit Die and Base Attack Bonus progressions.

A character cannot take levels in the Auxiliary class with his Primary progression on the Multiclass levels.

If taking a Prestige Class that progresses any ability based on class level of the Auxiliary class, the Multiclassed level counts only once on any such given level.

If both the character's primary and Auxiliary class progress spellcasting, the character must choose one spellcasting progression to pursue on the Multiclassed levels.
For example, a Variant Multiclassed Paladin7//Oracle must at 5th and 7th level decide if they want to progress the Oracle or Paladin's spellcasting.

For the purposes of class abilities that interact with class levels, a Multiclassed level counts as the class that grants the faster progression.
For example, a Variant Muticlassed Paladin4//Oracle would be treated as a level three oracle for the purposes of the Oracle's Curse.

Variant Rule: Fractional Base Bonuses
When playing with Fractional Base Bonuses, sum the bonuses granted by both classes on Multiclass levels and divide them by half - these are your bonuses for that level.

For example, two d10 BAB classes would gain a +1 BAB, while a d6 and d10 class put together would gain a +0.75 BAB.


So there you have it. I wanted a Muticlass Variant that will work universally and give the players more versatile options. Arguably one can ALWAYS choose the Fighter when playing a Multiclass Variant character and snag a net gain of 3 feats. But as those are combat feats and such a character would probably decide to pursue a combat career, I feel I'm kinda okay with that.
I didn't want to take away the 1st level feat. I really, really didn't want to do it, so... I didn't.

Xerlith
2015-05-02, 03:00 AM
I really do enjoy feedback, don't be shy. *looks at almost 100 views*

Extra Anchovies
2015-05-02, 03:45 AM
Well.

I don't see this as an option that's worth taking very often. There are enough archetypes and base classes out there that if you want to do something, you can pick one class and take it to level 20 instead of (under your system) giving up four feats and two ability increases. Instead of Fighter//Wizard (BAB +15, Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +6, 10d10+10d6 HD, fifth-level spells), you can play a Magus (BAB +15, Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +12, 20d8 HD, sixth-level spells). Better chassis, and class features that integrate casting with combat instead of just having both with no bridges between.

The only instances I see this system being good for (in PF core) are non-feat-dependent classes (full casters, mostly) grabbing some of the neat class features of a different class who gets some good stuff at low levels, e.g. a druid picking up flurry of blows (to be combined with feral combat training), wisdom to AC, and some bonus movespeed by multiclassing with monk, or a sorcerer multiclassing with bard for Versatile Performance, or a wizard picking up the free-inspiration-on-X-checks talents from an Investigator to further boost their Int-based skills. So essentially, it takes things exclusive to noncasters and gives them to casters too, who now have their full casting in addition to whatever stuff they can pick up that is complemented by their high mental stat of choice.

I can, however, see this being useful for are non-casting/manifesting/whatever else you decide to preclude from multiclass dual-progression. DSP's Metaforge is a good example PrC; [Soulknife//Aegis] 6/Metaforge 10/[Soulknife//Aegis] 4 has, with Student of the Astral Suit, a 20th-level mind blade and a 19th-level suit, while Soulknife 3/Aegis 3/Mind Blade 10/Soulknife 4 has, also with SotAS, 17th-level for both. It would also be useful for dual-classing with casters/manifesters as the primary and a martial initiator in the auxiliary slot leading into one of the dual-progression PoW prestige classes.

So yeah. Only really useful for dual-progression non-dual-casting PrCs, and most of those are at least partially combat-related so the loss of feats will still really hurt, enough so that it's probably not worth it for the extra two or three levels of progression you'd be squeezing out of it. Not really constructive criticism, but I don't think there's any way for Pathfinder multiclassing to work very well unless you're going into one of the actually good PrCs, most of which are third-party.

Xerlith
2015-05-02, 09:58 AM
I see. Based on what you said about the chassis being inferior (among other things) I have rolled back the ability increase payment (minor) and reversed the decision about taking the worse of two chassis progressions. Now you can have a Fighter20//Wizard who plays differently than a Magus (or whatever other gish out there) and gains a spellcasting progression on par with the Paladin. While having feats in abundance still.

My base goal was the same as with the original multiclassing from Unchianed - to give some multiclass abilities to a character without taking away form their level progression.
Now, I admit in both cases this is difficult to actually convey mechanically without breaking it in any of both ways - I think ten class levels for four feats is quite enough. I mean, I can see many cases where taking Fighter as the multiclass would be a no-brainer for a net gain of three feats.

I can see where you're coming from when you say that this will benefit casters. The change I just made in the rule - even more so. If I could find any way to balance this, it'd be nice, but... Well, it is hard.

Extra Anchovies
2015-05-02, 10:17 AM
I see. Based on what you said about the chassis being inferior (among other things) I have rolled back the ability increase payment (minor) and reversed the decision about taking the worse of two chassis progressions. Now you can have a Fighter20//Wizard who plays differently than a Magus (or whatever other gish out there) and gains a spellcasting progression on par with the Paladin. While having feats in abundance still.

My base goal was the same as with the original multiclassing from Unchianed - to give some multiclass abilities to a character without taking away form their level progression.
Now, I admit in both cases this is difficult to actually convey mechanically without breaking it in any of both ways - I think ten class levels for four feats is quite enough. I mean, I can see many cases where taking Fighter as the multiclass would be a no-brainer for a net gain of three feats.

I can see where you're coming from when you say that this will benefit casters. The change I just made in the rule - even more so. If I could find any way to balance this, it'd be nice, but... Well, it is hard.

Hm. Looks pretty good. Four feats is still pretty harsh, but the increase in BAB/HD/saves is pretty good. Now the Fighter//Wizard 20 has +20 BAB, +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +10 Will, along with 10th-level wizard casting - better chassis than PF Fighter 10/Wizard 10, in exchange for four feats. Maybe a bit two strong, especially with certain combinations, but whatever. This seems really tricky to balance.

Now that I've put a bit more thought into it, here's an idea for people who want to advance two classes evenly:
At even-numbered levels, they get the better BAB/saves/HD/skills advancement of the two classes, and class features of both.
At levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17, they get +1 level of the primary class.
At levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19, they get +1 level of the secondary class.
This puts them at 15//15 instead of 20//10. This also produces a pretty strong chassis, so the feats should probably be sacrificed there as well.

Xerlith
2015-05-02, 10:45 AM
Hm. Looks pretty good. Four feats is still pretty harsh, but the increase in BAB/HD/saves is pretty good. Now the Fighter//Wizard 20 has +20 BAB, +12 Fort, +6 Ref, +10 Will, along with 10th-level wizard casting - better chassis than PF Fighter 10/Wizard 10, in exchange for four feats. Maybe a bit two strong, especially with certain combinations, but whatever. This seems really tricky to balance.

I quite agree. Finding the median point where the balance of the rule itself doesn't tip in favour of the casters (As opposed to what naturally happens, that is casters exponentially benefitting from any general improvement) and doesn't become cripplingly weak to anyone got me thinking hard - and I can't find a solution that is elegant and not convoluted or calling out spellcasters more specifically than it is now.



Now that I've put a bit more thought into it, here's an idea for people who want to advance two classes evenly:
At even-numbered levels, they get the better BAB/saves/HD/skills advancement of the two classes, and class features of both.
At levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17, they get +1 level of the primary class.
At levels 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19, they get +1 level of the secondary class.
This puts them at 15//15 instead of 20//10. This also produces a pretty strong chassis, so the feats should probably be sacrificed there as well.

It's featured in the base rule, actually. :smallbiggrin: If they want 15//15 they can simply sacrifice the levels of their Primary progression to take the Auxiliary class.

I tried to word it specifically so the Auxiliary class is available to the character during their normal progression, but can't be taken twice at the Multiclassed levels (That is, you can't go [Fighter1//Wizard1]/Fighter1/[Wizard2//Wizard3], but you can go [Fighter1//Wizard1]/Wizard2/[Fighter2//Wizard3] if you want to).
I can try and clear up the wording if it's not obvious at first glance. I admit to fine-tuning this while half-asleep. :smallredface: