How cheesy can Dweomerkeepers get?

[Pippin]

Good evening playground,

I would have two questions regarding the Dweomerkeeper PrC.

1. What workarounds do we have to fulfill the entry requirements without losing a level of wizard? I heard that the two feats southern magician and arcane disciple would do the job, but the former doesn't exactly grant you the ability to cast divine spells, and the latter doesn't exactly grant you a Domain, but rather its spells. (And even if the DM was lenient, you'd use 4 different feats to fulfill the requirements...)

2. What are the best spells for the Supernatural Spell class feature? Besides wish and miracle, obviously. Ice assassin could have been super awesome, but the casting time has to be 1 standard action or less ^^

[Troacctid]

The easiest entry is Sha'ir. Full casting, and you naturally have both arcane and divine spells.

[Urpriest]

There's a feat (Magical Training I think?) that gives you a spellbook and the ability to cast some 0th level spells. That tends to be a favored Cleric entry. Use of Anyspell is also popular.

[Pippin]

Okay but, I was considering entering this class from a wizard's perspective. Sorcerers, clerics and friends are not my type :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Southern Magician, then.

[Urpriest]

Southern Magician, then.

Still need the domain, though, which Arcane Disciple doesn't give you. I'm...not totally sure of a way to get it? Maybe a Domain Draught and a class like Divine Oracle that gives an arcane caster a domain?

[dextercorvia]

Domain access is defined (somewhere) as the granted power and being able to cast the spells. A wizard can get the spells from Arcane Disciple and the power from the Wizard ACF in CChamp. Really, you ought to just lose the one caster level and dip Cloistered Cleric. I'm sure you can find some use for Turn Undead.

[Story]

2. What are the best spells for the Supernatural Spell class feature? Besides wish and miracle, obviously. Ice assassin could have been super awesome, but the casting time has to be 1 standard action or less ^^

Well for normal use, anything with large XP or material costs. For TO, Supernatural Spell is useful for taking down otherwise invincible monsters. A CL boosted Supernatural Spell Holy Word (or other alignment versions) is hard to defend against (you pretty much need sonic immunity, I think).

[Anthrowhale]

The Stutter Caster (below) uses DK in an essential way to achieve some overpowered effects. However, that's based on Archivist. A wizard variant comes online a bit later.

All spells can be cast in a standard action via Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge.


Domain access is defined (somewhere) as the granted power and being able to cast the spells.

Huh. Any idea where? I only know iffy alternatives such as getting a cleric to cast 'imbue with spell ability' on you.

[Crake]

2. What are the best spells for the Supernatural Spell class feature? Besides wish and miracle, obviously. Ice assassin could have been super awesome, but the casting time has to be 1 standard action or less ^^

Using it for free dark chaos shuffles for you and your party is always fun, never have to worry about having feats you don't want, and access to whatever abilities you might need at any point. Can also be used to leapfrog with extra spell slot if you wanna get cheesy.

Free forcecage is always fun.

Plane shift to any plane you want without the need for a tuning fork.

Free instant summons on all your gear.

Secret chest without the vulnerability of losing the focus.

Soul binding and trap the soul without needing to spend thousands of GP on gems

[Urpriest]

Well for normal use, anything with large XP or material costs. For TO, Supernatural Spell is useful for taking down otherwise invincible monsters. A CL boosted Supernatural Spell Holy Word (or other alignment versions) is hard to defend against (you pretty much need sonic immunity, I think).

I...think you're confusing TO and PO here.

Bypassing large XP or material costs is pretty much always TO, and only flies in games that explicitly use some form of the Wish economy. By contrast, bypassing SR is very much a normal use, PO thing to do.

[Story]

CL50+ Holy Words would very likely be TO though. It's true that pretty any abuse of Dweomercheater is going to be TO though.

[dextercorvia]

Huh. Any idea where? I only know iffy alternatives such as getting a cleric to cast 'imbue with spell ability' on you.

I did some digging and couldn't find it in the expected places. I'm beginning to think I just read it on a forum somewhere. The closest is one of the PRC's in Defenders of the Faith, which defined access to the domain as being able to cast any spell from that domain, but it was only to meet a prereq.

[Pippin]

All spells can be cast in a standard action via Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge.
Right, your post made me realize that I completely misread the class feature.

Well after a little pondering, I think this PrC still isn't as good as Shadowcraft Mages, though it might be more DM-friendly regarding miracle issues.

[Crake]

All spells can be cast in a standard action via Uncanny Forethought + Arcane Spellsurge.

Just because a spell CAN be cast as a standard action, does not mean the spell itself has a casting time of a standard action, which is what the requirement for supernatural spell is based on. The spell you want to use must have, under it's casting time entry, 1 standard action or less.

[Anthrowhale]

The spell you want to use must have, under it's casting time entry, 1 standard action or less.

That's a surprising position. If a full-round spell is modified by 'rapid spell', then it's not eligible as well?

And if a spontaneous caster casts a 1-standard action spell with metamagic so it's casting time increases it remains eligible for Supernatural Spell?

[Pippin]

Just because a spell CAN be cast as a standard action, does not mean the spell itself has a casting time of a standard action, which is what the requirement for supernatural spell is based on. The spell you want to use must have, under it's casting time entry, 1 standard action or less.
The text doesn't really reflect this, though.


Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability.

Are you about to cast a spell? Yes?
Is the casting time 1 standard action or less? Yes?
Go for it then.

[dextercorvia]

IIRC, casting a Spontaneous spell with metamagic (usually) increases the casting time of the spell. Uncanny Forethought, on the other hand, allows you to cast a long casting time spell as a Standard or Full Round action despite its casting time. The feat does not change the "casting time" of the spell even though it changes the time necessary to cast the spell.

[Anthrowhale]

"casting time" ... time...to cast

Ar these are always the same or sometimes different? Evidence for the same is provided by the casting time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) section which does not specify the time to cast of a "casting time: 1 standard action" spell. Is there any way to conclude time to cast is 1 standard action other than using the normal rules of english? Also given that english defaults to these concepts being the same, is there any raw evidence that these are different?

Which are eligible for DK Supernatural spell in your opinion?


Arcane Spellsurge + Uncanny forethought [Genesis]? Uncanny forethought modifies the time to cast:
... as a full-round action, you can ... cast any spell... while Arcane spellsurge modifies casting time:
Casting times ... are reduced as follows: ... 1 full round [to] 1 standard action...
Rapid Summon Monster I? Rapid modifies the time to cast:
A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action.
Elder Giant Magic[3 rounds] Magic Missile? Elder Giant Magic modifies casting time
When casting a spell ... you can increase the casting time by up to 3 rounds.
Sorcerous Maximized Magic Missile? Spontaneous metamagic increases time to cast
If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action ...


I believe the answers for "casting time is time to cast" and "casting time is not time to cast" are:

Yes No
Yes No
No No
No Yes

respectively.

[dextercorvia]

I admit it is murky, as there is some indication that the English equivalency is used sometimes. However, if you read and cross reference carefully, most of the long casting time loopholes are closed.

2. In the case of Rapid Spell. The text of the feat does not state that the casting time is changed, however, it refers to original casting time, and the table text for the feat says that casting time is changed. This isn't technically contradicted by the text, so I believe it stands. You could use Supernatural Spell on a Rapid Summon Monster.

3. Elder Giant Magic clearly increases casting time, and you get no benefit from it unless you actually cast for the extended time, so no spell cast using EGM can benefit from Supernatural Spell.

4. If you check PHII under Metamagic Specialist, it refers to sorcerers' spontaneous metamagic usage as increasing casting time. So, (sans rapid metamagic or the equivalent), a Sorcerer casting Maximized Magic Missile could not apply Supernatural spell to it.

1. Uncanny Forethought gives you the ability to as a full round action expend a spell slot to cast a (non-Mastered) spell that you know. It does not explicitly, or implicitly change the casting time of the spell. It is merely a side effect. So, I do not believe Arcane Spellsurge would have that effect. In order to use the ability, you have to use a full round action. Even if it was a mastered spell, and Uncanny Forethought gave you directly the ability to use a standard action to cast it, it is still not a spell with a casting time of a standard action.


Edit to address your other concern. Normally the casting time listed in the spell will be the time it takes to cast the spell. Some abilities modify the casting time, and therefore modify the time it takes to cast the spell. Other abilities modify the time it takes to cast the spell directly, leaving the casting time intact.

[drack]

Still need the domain, though, which Arcane Disciple doesn't give you. I'm...not totally sure of a way to get it? Maybe a Domain Draught and a class like Divine Oracle that gives an arcane caster a domain?

Domain wizard? A planer touchstone? use the divine casting a feat mentioned previously gives you to qualify for a complete divine class that advances your "divine" casting and gives you a domain? Latter is iffy, ask you GM, middle one I'm not sure counts as you having the domain, first should be fine though right? :smallconfused:

[Anthrowhale]

I admit it is murky, as there is some indication that the English equivalency is used sometimes.

Is there any evidence that english equivalency is not correct? You have an interpretation, but seem to have no evidence that it is correct.

Furthermore, looking at the answers given, your Rapid Spell and metamagic feat provide further evidence of equivalency. Rapid spell provides evidence, because text and table agree under equivalency. Metamagic specialist provides evidence, because the release of PHBII well after metamagic feats were introduced in the PHB would not have suddenly changed the rules under equivalency.

[Jowgen]

If you're still looking for Domain access:

Statuette of the All-Father, Dragon mag 323 p. 88. For 2000 gp LG NG and LN clerics can use it in daily spell preperation to prepare Strenght domain spells as if they were domain spells, and gets the strenght domain power.

[Pippin]

If you're still looking for Domain access:

Statuette of the All-Father, Dragon mag 323 p. 88. For 2000 gp LG NG and LN clerics can use it in daily spell preperation to prepare Strenght domain spells as if they were domain spells, and gets the strenght domain power.
Thanks for pointing it out, although magazines are out for me.


I think this PrC still isn't as good as Shadowcraft Mages, though it might be more DM-friendly regarding miracle issues.
I would like to reconsider this statement, as there's just about no way a sane DM allows Shadowcraft Mages to cast miracle. I'm just off-put because getting a level of Cleric is really unaesthetic. I wish they had removed the caster level progression at first class level, and softened the class requirements instead.

Why can't we have nice things, really Q_Q