Reducing LA

[Kesnit]

One of my players found a race in a 3rd-party book that she would like to use.

+2 DEX, +2 CHA, -2 STR
Blind, but gets Blindsense Blindsight
+2 Perform
Free additional language of player's choice
(Race also gets Ambidexterity, but that feat no longer exists in 3.5)
LA +1

As written, is that fair for LA+1? If so, what changes should I make to reduce the LA to 0?

[GilesTheCleric]

Seems reasonable to me. The blind sense is limited to 30/60', right? It's a good race for sorcs and bards, both of which are sub t1 anyway.

Are you allowing LA buy off?

Edit: to reduce it to 0, you could either change the blind sense (remove it, or make it 5' per HD, capped to 20 or 30), or reduce the ability gains (this is clearly a caster-favoured class, so changing the str penalty to something more important like wis, con, or dex would make it more balanced at 0).

[Sith_Happens]

What's the range of the blindsight?

[ExLibrisMortis]

The blindsight makes or breaks this, really. Long-range, it's quite useful. Short-range, it's not that big a deal. Enemies can still hide from it, but they need the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness. Either way, it's not worth +1 LA, in my opinion. Make it +0 with 30' range, increase it to 60' at level 6, 90' at level 11, 120' at level 16.

You can modify encounters to make this more or less useful. E.g. ambushes from fairly long range vs. 20' diameter rooms.

[Sith_Happens]

The blindsight makes or breaks this, really. Long-range, it's quite useful. Short-range, it's not that big a deal. Enemies can still hide from it, but they need the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness. Either way, it's not worth +1 LA, in my opinion. Make it +0 with 30' range, increase it to 60' at level 6, 90' at level 11, 120' at level 16.

Yeah, you'd be surprised how easily not being able to see long distances comes up when your DM wants it to (:smallwink:), not to mention that blindsight is only good for "seeing" what things are shaped like (as opposed to what color they are, or whether they look friendly, or if they have text on them).

Actually, come to think of it, you're going to need to decide which if any of the usual penalties for being blind apply to a race that could never see to start with (unless the book this one's from already specified and you just didn't quote it):


The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

I figure all the bolded parts can go away, and the italicized part is obviously gone already because blindsight.

[ZamielVanWeber]

In addition to blindsight range what is the race? Humanoid, monstrous humanoid, aberration? Those can make a difference in LA.

Also note that a net positive modifier without a level adjustment or other drawback is not common in DnD.

Edit: and are they naturally blind and have blindsight or just have blindsight?

[WeaselGuy]

In addition to blindsight range what is the race? Humanoid, monstrous humanoid, aberration? Those can make a difference in LA.

Also note that a net positive modifier without a level adjustment or other drawback is not common in DnD.

Edit: and are they naturally blind and have blindsight or just have blindsight?

Lesser Aasimar and Lesser Tiefling both have net positive modifiers (+2 Wis, +2 Cha (+4 total) for the former, +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha (+2 total) for the latter). Each has an SLA as well, the lesser version makes them Planetouched Humanoid. Without the lesser variant, they are Native Outsiders (netting martial weapon proficiency as well) and have a +1 LA.

[Kesnit]

Seems reasonable to me. The blind sense is limited to 30/60', right?

It doesn't say, actually. The write-up just says they have "Echolocation," which works like blindsight.


It's a good race for sorcs and bards, both of which are sub t1 anyway.

She wants to play a Favored Soul.


Are you allowing LA buy off?

No.


Actually, come to think of it, you're going to need to decide which if any of the usual penalties for being blind apply to a race that could never see to start with (unless the book this one's from already specified and you just didn't quote it):

No penalties are listed in the book, but that's a good point. I'll have to think about that.


In addition to blindsight range what is the race? Humanoid, monstrous humanoid, aberration?

Humanoid.


Edit: and are they naturally blind and have blindsight or just have blindsight?

Naturally blind.

[GilesTheCleric]

Hmm. Well, how you rule that is up to you, but I'll note that most special senses don't naturally go past 120 (typically darkvision), and the more specialized ones (tremor sense, blind sight, earth sense) are typically 30 when available to PCs, though are sometimes 60 when available from a unique creature. Things like low-light vision can go up to x2 or x4 "typical human vision", for whatever that actually means. Additionally, if it's not called either blindsight/ blindsense, then you'll have to decide whether it allows for pinpointing (blindsight), or just knowing the square/ 50% concealment (blindsense). Why would they call it echolocation rather than blindsight if it works exactly the same as blindsight? There must be some difference to warrant the new rule name.

I think how you rule the echolocation determines whether this is an incredible +1 race (blindsight with the range of human vision, immunity to gaze attacks, and a nice stat set for anything that's not hitting people with a 2h sword? Yes, please). Zamiel's point about it being humanoid is important, since it doesn't have access to additional shapechange creatures, and doesn't get immunity to humanoid-only spells.

Thinking about it some more, I think that blindsense 60/120 (or exlibrismortis's very good suggestion) might be the only change needed to make this +0. The stat changes don't really make a whole lot of difference (it's a +1 spell DC for cha casters, who I think are all t2 anyway, and +1 to dex things. Not a big change). MWP as a free feat isn't anything to write home about; at best you get access to the greatsword penalty-free (woo, a small boost to minimum damage and +2/ +1 damage over d8/ d10 weps), at worst you can pick something more fun than the boring simple weapons. It's actually strange that a str penalty race gets free MWP, since the dagger is simple and the kukri, quickrazor, and courtblade are exotic.

Favoured soul is again a t2, and I think (afb) is strictly worse than a spontaneous cleric. Between playing a FS and taking +1 la, your player will already be 2 levels behind on spellcasting, so if concerns of powergaming are important here, I'd say they probably shouldn't be.

Playing a blind race with echolocation seems pretty flavourful. Hopefully it will provide some fun rp.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lesser Aasimar and Lesser Tiefling both have net positive modifiers (+2 Wis, +2 Cha (+4 total) for the former, +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha (+2 total) for the latter). Each has an SLA as well, the lesser version makes them Planetouched Humanoid. Without the lesser variant, they are Native Outsiders (netting martial weapon proficiency as well) and have a +1 LA.

And both of them have the downside of being extraplanar as lesser so my statement still stands.

Given the information that the OP provided I would say +0.

[SinsI]

Is he and his race going to be unique/rare in your game world or not?
If Blindsight is rare, few enemies would be prepared against it (i.e. by preparing Silence instead of Invisibility), so LA +1 is a minimum.
But if it is relatively frequent you can include plenty of enemies specialized in going against them, so reducing it to LA +0 for free won't be a big deal - one casting of Silence, a good Sonic or Unholy Word spell would make that character almost completely moot, being left without any senses at all.

[Kesnit]

Hmm. Well, how you rule that is up to you, but I'll note that most special senses don't naturally go past 120 (typically darkvision), and the more specialized ones (tremor sense, blind sight, earth sense) are typically 30 when available to PCs, though are sometimes 60 when available from a unique creature.

I talked to the player and we agreed on 60'.


Additionally, if it's not called either blindsight/ blindsense, then you'll have to decide whether it allows for pinpointing (blindsight), or just knowing the square/ 50% concealment (blindsense). Why would they call it echolocation rather than blindsight if it works exactly the same as blindsight? There must be some difference to warrant the new rule name.

The write-up for the power says it is just like blindsight, so...


Favoured soul is again a t2, and I think (afb) is strictly worse than a spontaneous cleric. Between playing a FS and taking +1 la, your player will already be 2 levels behind on spellcasting, so if concerns of powergaming are important here, I'd say they probably shouldn't be.

It isn't the powergaming aspect that worries me. The party needs a real full-caster (since there isn't one), so I'm more than willing to let her play like she wants. My concern is that the player is my wife, and I don't want to be accused of favoring her.


Playing a blind race with echolocation seems pretty flavourful. Hopefully it will provide some fun rp.

She has a great RP-concept, so I hope so.


Is he and his race going to be unique/rare in your game world or not?
If Blindsight is rare, few enemies would be prepared against it (i.e. by preparing Silence instead of Invisibility), so LA +1 is a minimum.

There's an entire major race of enemies who are blind and have blindsight and tremorsense. (The game is set in Skyrim, and the enemies are based on Falmer. The PC is supposed to be a half-dark elf, half-Falmer who is dedicated to curing the curse of the Falmer.)


But if it is relatively frequent you can include plenty of enemies specialized in going against them, so reducing it to LA +0 for free won't be a big deal - one casting of Silence, a good Sonic or Unholy Word spell would make that character almost completely moot, being left without any senses at all.

Very good point.