Some players just want to watch the world burn.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello playground, LP here.

Last night, the table I DM for had some... issues. Right now, I am attempting to figure out what I should be doing with their alignments. Here is the party (The letter in quotes represents them on the chart):

"N" LN Samurai, who is attempting to regain honor for his household and himself. "A" CN Ninja who is in service to the Samurai, but does pretty much whatever he wants. "S" NG Cleric/Ordained Champion of Waukeen, who seeks greater wisdom and glorious battles. "J" LN Monk/Drunken Master that also serves that is in debt to the samurai. "Q" LN warforged artificer that seeks to convert everyone to metal as a means of bettering humanity.

Anyways, here is how their alignments have traveled so far. White being their current alignment and black being their starting alignment.
http://i.imgur.com/4s2hp8o.png

Now, I was doing a fine job tracking alignment until last night. The party was attacked in the middle of the night by dryads. An easy encounter, the party is level 9. However, one was captured and turned into a tree as a means of hiding. She had put the ninja to sleep for three minutes and the rest of the party was sleeping. When the ninja woke up, he got angry that she had escaped and proceeded to burn the forest down.

He was hoping to get her to reveal herself, but in reality she had died because of the fire. To me, this is a CE act. When the party woke up, the druid NPC they were traveling with was furious and struck him with lightning a couple times. He then proceeded to knock her unconscious and alter her memory. Another evil act.

The thing that really bothers me though, is that the rest of the party did nothing about it. When they knew what had happened, they determined they could do nothing about it moved on without a second thought. Even though they knew there was a cottage in the fire that contained two NPC farmers that had offered them a place to stay.

At the end of it all, he then threatened both NPCs that they have with them, that if they ever cross them again, he will kill them. Now, I'm doing my best not to DM as "The Big LG". But there has to be some sort of recourse here. The NPCs will leave them and the forest that is teeming with nasties will retaliate. But what I really need help with is the alignment. What is a Paladin to do?

Bonus points if you have a nasty challenging forest monster to fight them.

[Nerd-o-rama]

That Ninja is probably CE and should be marked as such. Burning down a forest full of living things including living intelligent things for no reason other than a fit of anger? That is the action of a Chaotic Evil character. Although I am impressed that a Ninja (as opposed to a Cleric or Wizard or Red Dragon) burned down an entire forest. How'd he manage that? Very dry season?

The rest of the party except the Cleric is Neutral and behaved in a tolerably Neutral ******* manner (the samurai should look to see how his vassal's actions reflect on his family honor, though), but the Cleric probably needs to re-assess his priorities in regards to "Good". Waukeen's a Neutral god, at least, so she probably doesn't care what her Cleric does morally.

Other than that, it's an in-character action that will have in-character consequences you've already outlined fairly well. Everything that lived in that forest and escaped the fire is going to be pissed.

[Sacrieur]

Well, now he has to deal with the consequences doesn't he?

I know a few druids who aren't too happy right now.

If his character dies because a horde of dire forest creatures descend like the fury upon him led by a half-fey druid, well, that's on him.

[LoyalPaladin]

That Ninja is probably CE and should be marked as such. Burning down a forest full of living things including living intelligent things for no reason other than a fit of anger? That is the action of a Chaotic Evil character.
I had thought so, but I wasn't sure if I was just being judgmental haha.


Although I am impressed that a Ninja (as opposed to a Cleric or Wizard or Red Dragon) burned down an entire forest. How'd he manage that? Very dry season?
He is a very resourceful Ninja. I should note that the forest hasn't burnt down yet. It's just a raging forest fire that is rapidly spreading. There is a large tribe of wood elves that live in the forest that are aligned with a tribe of were-bears from the mountains. There are also Star Monarchs (PF) in the forest, but I am not sure how deadly that'll be.


If his character dies because a horde of dire forest creatures descend like the fury upon him led by a half-fey druid, well, that's on him.
That is a truer situation than you think. I'm sure their NPC druid will bring that to her clan...

[bjoern]

My opinion on the fact that no one else cares could be because they don't care as players. They aren't necessarily evil, the just want to play d&d and not have their session bogged down with a bunch of moral/alignment/consequences debate. They just want to keep the action moving forward rather than be stuck in the mud because one player did something stupid.

[LoyalPaladin]

My opinion on the fact that no one else cares could be because they don't care as players. They aren't necessarily evil, the just want to play d&d and not have their session bogged down with a bunch of moral/alignment/consequences debate. They just want to keep the action moving forward rather than be stuck in the mud because one player did something stupid.
I could see that point of view, but my group is very intent on roleplaying situations out. It wouldn't line up with their past actions.

[Nibbens]

Sorry to derail, but where did you get that chart from and how does one go about using it!?!?

Now, back to the OP: Remember that "Non-actions" are actions too. Not reporting the murderer in your family makes you an accessory and all that. This action falls along the Chaotic spectrum (Behaving more in line with the laws of smaller social groups, rather than laws of the world around them is a chaotic concept).

While not necessarily evil to ignore the murderous rampage of another person - it's definitely Chaotic.

[Red Fel]

That Ninja is probably CE and should be marked as such. Burning down a forest full of living things including living intelligent things for no reason other than a fit of anger? That is the action of a Chaotic Evil character. Although I am impressed that a Ninja (as opposed to a Cleric or Wizard or Red Dragon) burned down an entire forest. How'd he manage that? Very dry season?

The rest of the party except the Cleric is Neutral and behaved in a tolerably Neutral ******* manner (the samurai should look to see how his vassal's actions reflect on his family honor, though), but the Cleric probably needs to re-assess his priorities in regards to "Good". Waukeen's a Neutral god, at least, so she probably doesn't care what her Cleric does morally.

This. Burning down an entire forest in a childish fit is pretty dad-gum Evil, right there, and that Ninja should take the nosedive into the deep end of the alignment pool.

As for the Neutral members of the party, they were under no moral obligation to get involved. At best, they were apathetic to the suffering of living things, and one can be apathetic to suffering - even suffering of the innocent - and still be Neutral. (See e.g. Inevitables.) Neutrality is characterized, generally, by either ruthless self-interest or amoral devotion to an ideal lacking in a moral charge (e.g. the mad scientist, the dogged lawman, etc.). It was not in their self-interest to save others, and they didn't act to actively harm them, so they're morally in the clear.

As for the Good one, you have a problem. Goodness is characterized by compassion for others, in some form or another. Anything in that forest that could have been considered innocent was endangered by that act, which bordered on the genocidal. A Good character cannot abide such blatant acts of Evil. If the Cleric had been in a position to prevent it, s/he should have. If it was at all possible for the Cleric to save those endangered, s/he should have. If the memory erasure spell had an [Evil] tag on it and the Cleric knew, and was in a position to prevent it, s/he should have. (Although mind alteration is apparently considered slightly less Evil in D&D if it doesn't carry the [Evil] tag, see Sanctify the Wicked. Still creeps me the heck out.)

Now, if the Cleric's only opportunity to act came after the fact, or there was nothing the Cleric could have done (fire was already blazing out of control, innocents were already dead, memory was already erased, etc.), that's one thing. But if the Cleric was in a position to do something, there was a moral obligation on a Good character to do so.

[Banjoman42]

There's Burlew's Charred horror (Here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?172910-Articles-Previously-Appearing-on-GiantITP-com&highlight=Burlew+articles). I made my own version of it, I'll see if I can find it.
As for consequences, any villagers who rely on the forest (to hunt or for lumber) might be pretty peeved.

[LoyalPaladin]

Sorry to derail, but where did you get that chart from and how does one go about using it!?!?

Now, back to the OP: Remember that "Non-actions" are actions too.
It's on Easy Damus (http://www.easydamus.com/alignmenttracking.html)! However, the rules are from Fantasy's Realm (http://fantasy.xecu.net/Role_playing/Reference_tables/Expanded_alignments.pl).

That was my thought. It felt wildly out of character for the Samurai to idly watch people burn.


This. Burning down an entire forest in a childish fit is pretty dad-gum Evil, right there, and that Ninja should take the nosedive into the deep end of the alignment pool.
Yeah... I'll shift him. It is definitely deserved.

For the rest of your statements (cut for length), I agree with it. I guess as LN samurai, it felt out of line to leave people to burn or let your subordinate be that chaotic.

I'll talk to the cleric, he is new and sort of... green?


There's Burlew's Charred horror.
I'll look into that.

[Geddy2112]

The forest is on fire due to the actions of a lone psychopath. The wood elves don't have time for an ethics debate. I see them doing the following:
Step 1. Summon Smokey The Bear using Summon Planar Ally. It should not take much convincing to get him to help...
Step 2. Put out fire
Step 3. Call allied wearbears and ask the Star Monarchs for help.
Step 4. Find and kill this evil pyro before he does it again. If his friends stand with him, kill them too.

Regardless of alignment, his actions have warranted consequences. Would the elves care much if he said he was lawful good and tried to explain his way out? Do you think they are going to "hear him out" or question his motives?

[Malroth]

One CE Act does not a CE character make and even then only for the character performing the act simply standing around confused not reacting to the fire is True Neutral at worst. If it becomes a pattern simply change how spells with an Alignment componet affect him and go on with your day.

[LoyalPaladin]

Regardless of alignment, his actions have warranted consequences. Would the elves care much if he said he was lawful good and tried to explain his way out? Do you think they are going to "hear him out" or question his motives?
Right, I get you. I'll have to run this tactfully.

Side note. Star Monarchs are my new favorite monster.


One CE Act does not a CE character make and even then only for the character performing the act simply standing around confused not reacting to the fire is True Neutral at worst. If it becomes a pattern simply change how spells with an Alignment componet affect him and go on with your day.
The issue is that he was already tilting in the CE direction and preformed multiple CE acts in a very short amount of time.

[NeoPhoenix0]

It sounds like the ninja was never actually CN. He just used it as CE lite. What his character is acting like is honestly a psychopath. No empathy, only cares about himself. Even if he didn't do anything majorly evil these kinds of characteristics point to CE. This is the kind of thing that gives CN a bad name, only usually they don't do something so blatantly CE.

Personally i would find it hilarious if you had a small army of cinderspawn come out of the forest chasing him. Possibly sent by some greater being who may also be dead and was part of the forest.


One CE Act does not a CE character make and even then only for the character performing the act simply standing around confused not reacting to the fire is True Neutral at worst. If it becomes a pattern simply change how spells with an Alignment componet affect him and go on with your day.

It was multiple acts and the character concept itself was already on the border of CN/CE. Oh yeah and you set his starting alignment to high LP. Selfishness might be CN but it is the lower end of it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Samurai should be in trouble because the ninja is his retainer. He's responsible for keeping him in line or, failing that, making up for his misdeeds.
Doing nothing while his retainer burns a whole forest in a tantrum is pretty much the height of dishonor.

The cleric is also iffy. As a NG character he should have tried to prevent this outcome or at least stop travelling with the ninja now and try to help fix things. The ninja is/was part of his group after all so he is at least partially responsible by association.

The only ones who can really get away with not caring are the Artificer and maybe the Monk.

[sjeshin]

I think one thing to consider is that I strongly doubt it is legal in any way shape or form to burn down the house of the farmer, or the forest for that matter. If the cleric is "good" he can't be apathetic to farmers presumably burning alive or suffocating. If he knows the forest has all of those intelligent beings living in it he would be terrible morally offended by the destruction and death of the act. The lawful characters involved would be disturbed at his complete inability or desire to control himself. They would want him to have to pay the piper for such an unlawful act.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Another thing you may want to consider is legendary animals. Animals that have been given great power by nature itself to defend it.

[LoyalPaladin]

It sounds like the ninja was never actually CN. He just used it as CE lite.

Personally i would find it hilarious if you had a small army of cinderspawn come out of the forest chasing him. Possibly sent by some greater being who may also be dead and was part of the forest.
Yeah, I was starting to get the feeling that was the case.

I'll have to look them up. That could be a good repercussion.


Doing nothing while his retainer burns a whole forest in a tantrum is pretty much the height of dishonor.

The only ones who can really get away with not caring are the Artificer and maybe the Monk.
Yeah, this is something that's bothered me for a while. He is trying to regain honor, but it feels more like the "atonement is just a spell" mentality. Pretty much, "if I sin a bunch and off myself in the end, I've atoned."

The artificer wasn't there last night, so I can't pass judgement on him.


If the cleric is "good" he can't be apathetic to farmers presumably burning alive or suffocating. If he knows the forest has all of those intelligent beings living in it he would be terrible morally offended by the destruction and death of the act.
I'll probably shift the Cleric to TN.


Another thing you may want to consider is legendary animals. Animals that have been given great power by nature itself to defend it.
I always want to use legendary creatures, but I have am not very adept at finding their entries. Same with horrid creatures. I really like this idea.

[Geddy2112]

Side note. Star Monarchs are my new favorite monster.



I always want to use legendary creatures, but I have am not very adept at finding their entries. Same with horrid creatures. I really like this idea.

Since you like Star Monarchs so much, why not call out the queen bee...butterfly of Star Monarchs, the divine emissary of Desna herself, the Hearald of Dreams/Night Monarch.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/heralds/night-monarch

Being a mostly peaceful creature, it also provides an option for the party to maybe have a chance to roleplay it out rather than a straight retaliation from the forest.

[NeoPhoenix0]

here are a couple legendary animals from the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm)

The rest are in MM2. here is a link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) to the 3.5 update you need to update those entries.

Horrid animals are somewhere in the eberron campaign setting

[LoyalPaladin]

Since you like Star Monarchs so much, why not call out the queen bee...butterfly of Star Monarchs, the divine emissary of Desna herself, the Hearald of Dreams/Night Monarch.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/heralds/night-monarch

Being a mostly peaceful creature, it also provides an option for the party to maybe have a chance to roleplay it out rather than a straight retaliation from the forest.
... is it wrong that I want to have that as an animal companion?


here are a couple legendary animals from the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm)

The rest are in MM2. here is a link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) to the 3.5 update you need to update those entries.

Horrid animals are somewhere in the eberron campaign setting
Thank youuuu. Look at how organized you're becoming under my tutelage. It pleases me greatly.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Thank youuuu. Look at how organized you're becoming under my tutelage. It pleases me greatly.

Hey, chaos is a very organized business. Do you think we just randomly sow destruction everywhere? That's for the noobs who have no idea how to cause proper bedlam.

[Hiro Quester]

Did the Ninja deliberately set fire to the forest? Or did he set fire to a small group of trees, believing that his enemy was disguised as one of them?

Was this a CN act of attacking an enemy you are angry at, an act that has very unfortunate consequences (which his anger may have caused him to not think through very thoroughly)?

Or was it a more CN act of deliberately and callously choosing to burn an forest full of innocent creatures (and at least two NPCs who were kind to the group), because he was mad at one of those creatures?

Did you as DM make sure the player was aware that his choice to start the fire might burn down the whole forest, rater than just burning the dryad and a couple of trees?

Consequences (retaliation) should probably happen either way. And maybe the onus was also on party members to at least call attention to the consequences of what he's about to do (or maybe to try to help prevent the fire from spreading).

But alignment changes IMHO should depend on what the player understood about the situation, what he took his character to be doing, and why he chose to do that.

[LoyalPaladin]

Hey, chaos is a very organized business. Do you think we just randomly sow destruction everywhere? That's for the noobs who have no idea how to cause proper bedlam.
Ha ha ha. Kids these days and their "organized chaos". Ha ha ha.


Did the Ninja deliberately set fire to the forest? Or did he set fire to a small group of trees, believing that his enemy was disguised as one of them?
The conversations went along the lines of:
"The dryad is no where to be seen."
"Well, then I am going to start lightning trees on fire until the dryad comes back!"
"You're going to light the trees on fire? The ones that are part of the forest you're trying to save?"
"Yes, it is her fault for running away."
Samurai pipes up.
"I wouldn't be okay with that."
Ninja rebuttles.
"You're asleep."
Party proceeds to shrug and mutter about how it doesn't really affect them. The players never actually put up an argument in character. They just said their characters don't really care and it doesn't effect them. They also put up no argument against him being cruel to their own druid NPC.

[Geddy2112]

alignment changes IMHO should depend on what the player understood about the situation, what he took his character to be doing, and why he chose to do that.

While I agree actions taken under extreme duress, coercion or while mind controlled should not influence alignment, I disagree that alignment is subjective. This is a game where there are planes and creatures that are objectively aligned. These are real and physical manifestations of what it means to be good, evil, lawful and chaotic. Saying "you did not understand" or "I did it because of X" does not alter the nature of what you did. By that logic, you can put lawful good on your character sheet, but run around and kill anybody you want so long as you say "Well I was always taught it was correct to murder random people for fun" or "Well people are inherently bad so I should kill them" or "I did not know they were innocent". This might fly as LG in some canon, but in D&D and similar systems this is chaotic evil.


... is it wrong that I want to have that as an animal companion?
A lawful good person riding a chaotic butterfly-shaped outsider that speaks in riddles and non-sequitur while semi randomly wandering the planes and going into peoples dreams? Not wrong to want it, but I doubt it would serve a lawful person for very long. Alignment aside, it is totally badass and if you get the chance you should do this.

[LoyalPaladin]

A lawful good person riding a chaotic butterfly-shaped outsider that speaks in riddles and non-sequitur while semi randomly wandering the planes and going into peoples dreams? Not wrong to want it, but I doubt it would serve a lawful person for very long. Alignment aside, it is totally badass and if you get the chance you should do this.
We'd be the dream team! My LG balanced by it's CG. The perfect holy force of goodness! The Butterflyadin!

[ZeshinX]

Green dragons generally don't like it when their forest lairs are set ablaze around them. I'm sure if any such dragon laired in that forest, and discovered that it was a party of treasure-laden adventurers that set fire to its home...:smallwink:

[Ferronach]

Green dragons generally don't like it when their forest lairs are set ablaze around them. I'm sure if any such dragon laired in that forest, and discovered that it was a party of treasure-laden adventurers that set fire to its home...:smallwink:

My thoughts exactly!

Also: I would force the players to make fortitude saves every minute of game time.
Reasoning: Forest fires produce incredible heat and lots of smoke.
And don't forget about the falling trees.
That ninja might just have TPKed the party by being petulant.

Another thought would be a few elder elementals showing up.
The earth water fire and air elementals are upset that he has messed up their balance in the current environment and will punish him.
Various deities might also become upset.
A whole bunch of dryads and will-o-whisps might come out to play and yes w-o-ws hurt alot!

The Samurai should punish the ninja for this if nothing else. Perhaps cast him out penniless and weaponless?

[Red Fel]

The Samurai should punish the ninja for this if nothing else. Perhaps cast him out penniless and weaponless?

Summary execution? That's my favorite kind of execution! Is it my birthday already?

[LoyalPaladin]

My thoughts exactly!

Also: I would force the players to make fortitude saves every minute of game time.
Reasoning: Forest fires produce incredible heat and lots of smoke.
And don't forget about the falling trees.
That ninja might just have TPKed the party by being petulant.

Another thought would be a few elder elementals showing up.
The earth water fire and air elementals are upset that he has messed up their balance in the current environment and will punish him.
Various deities might also become upset.
A whole bunch of dryads and will-o-whisps might come out to play and yes w-o-ws hurt alot!

The Samurai should punish the ninja for this if nothing else. Perhaps cast him out penniless and weaponless?
I'll have to research w-o-w's.

Unfortunately, the Samurai isn't an NPC and the PC doesn't care.


Summary execution? That's my favorite kind of execution! Is it my birthday already?
Hey Red, you're the evil mastermind. Got any good forest themed curses? Something nasty that doesn't benefit them like a template?

[Hiro Quester]

While I agree actions taken under extreme duress, coercion or while mind controlled should not influence alignment, I disagree that alignment is subjective. This is a game where there are planes and creatures that are objectively aligned. These are real and physical manifestations of what it means to be good, evil, lawful and chaotic. Saying "you did not understand" or "I did it because of X" does not alter the nature of what you did. By that logic, you can put lawful good on your character sheet, but run around and kill anybody you want so long as you say "Well I was always taught it was correct to murder random people for fun" or "Well people are inherently bad so I should kill them" or "I did not know they were innocent". This might fly as LG in some canon, but in D&D and similar systems this is chaotic evil.

It's not totally subjective. There are limits. But there is also room for different ways of playing CG. As the chart illustrates. And the player's knowledge and motive isn't irrelevant to the ethics of what they are doing.

But, yeah, taking the forest hostage, and executing hostages to influence the dryad, that's pretty evil. Esp. if you know it could burn the rest of the forest, too.

The Samurai being asleep does made some difference to his culpability, though. But when he woke he should have taken responsibility for the actions of his assistant, and demanded some kind of atonement.

[Zanos]

Ha ha ha. Kids these days and their "organized chaos". Ha ha ha.


The conversations went along the lines of:
"The dryad is no where to be seen."
"Well, then I am going to start lightning trees on fire until the dryad comes back!"
"You're going to light the trees on fire? The ones that are part of the forest you're trying to save?"
"Yes, it is her fault for running away."
Samurai pipes up.
"I wouldn't be okay with that."
Ninja rebuttles.
"You're asleep."
Party proceeds to shrug and mutter about how it doesn't really affect them. The players never actually put up an argument in character. They just said their characters don't really care and it doesn't effect them. They also put up no argument against him being cruel to their own druid NPC.
I can certainly see an Evil shift for that, but not a chaotic one. He was attacked by someone, they escaped him, and now he's going to destroy everything they love to try to eliminate one of his enemies.

Same evil shift for altering someone's memories. Doesn't seem really chaotic to me, pretty much the best outcome he could make happen (for himself) when someone is shooting you with lightning.

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah, this is something that's bothered me for a while. He is trying to regain honor, but it feels more like the "atonement is just a spell" mentality. Pretty much, "if I sin a bunch and off myself in the end, I've atoned."

Last I checked that's called "continuously bleeding Lawful points."


Samurai pipes up.
"I wouldn't be okay with that."
Ninja rebuttles.
"You're asleep."

This part's important. A samurai has just let one of his vassals get away with wanton destruction and alienating a party ally. That is the height of irresponsibility and worth a good smack upside the head with the +Chaotic stick.

[darksolitaire]

But, yeah, taking the forest hostage, and executing hostages to influence the dryad, that's pretty evil. Esp. if you know it could burn the rest of the forest, too.


The Dryad was using trees as human shields. Letting such vile creature to flee would have been greater evil.

[Ferronach]

Summary execution? That's my favorite kind of execution! Is it my birthday already?

You need a birthday for something "nice" to happen? :P


Unfortunately, the Samurai isn't an NPC and the PC doesn't care.
Didn't the samurai say he was not cool with the burning thing until the ninja told him that he was asleep?


Hey Red, you're the evil mastermind. Got any good forest themed curses? Something nasty that doesn't benefit them like a template?
Please tell me that you did not just seriously ask RF to advise you!
You are supposed to be a bastion of good! Not a minion of an evil overlord!

http://www.troll.me/images/grinning-emperor-palpatine/soon-your-transition-to-the-dark-side-will-be-complete.jpg

[LoyalPaladin]

Didn't the samurai say he was not cool with the burning thing until the ninja told him that he was asleep?
Yes, then he quickly got over his slight moral feelings and went along with it.


Please tell me that you did not just seriously ask RF to advise you!
You are supposed to be a bastion of good! Not a minion of an evil overlord!
What? The big LG and the big LE get along fairly well. I mean, even out deity aspects tend to get along alright. We complete eachother. RF is like the yang to my yin.

[Red Fel]

Hey Red, you're the evil mastermind. Got any good forest themed curses? Something nasty that doesn't benefit them like a template?

Please tell me that you did not just seriously ask RF to advise you!
You are supposed to be a bastion of good! Not a minion of an evil overlord!

First off, no backsies. Second off, I treat my minions very well. Equal opportunity employer. Dental plan and everything. Taco Tuesdays, Casual Fridays, and Summary Execution Birthday Parties for everyone.

Now, onto the curse bit... Hm. Do you want fluff-style curses, or actual mechanical ones? I've got some doozies for you, you might like 'em.

My favorite is, of course, restitutionary. Know how he burned down a forest to get at a single dryad? Go take a peek at the Dryad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/dryad) description. (I'm going with PF because it's more brutal.) See the weakness labeled "Tree Dependent?"

Oh, yes. You're going to give him a nasty bit of kryptonite. You see, one tree survives the blaze. Just one. And it's all his. He has to carry it around, protect it, treat it, care for it. If it dies, he dies. If he leaves it, he suffers penalties, as the Tree Dependent weakness.

Of course, he can lift the curse easily. He just has to replant the entire forest. He can have help, of course. Once he's done, he can replant "his" tree, and walk away.

Barring that, I'm sure there's an absurdly high-CL Break Enchantment spell that might do the trick. Or might kill him. Not really sure which.

How's that for a curse?

[LoyalPaladin]

First off, no backsies.

How's that for a curse?
Torm almighty. Red Fel, you deserve a +1 Evil Internet. Have it, it's all yours.

That is way better than I could have asked for.

[Red Fel]

Torm almighty. Red Fel, you deserve a +1 Evil Internet. Have it, it's all yours.

It always was. But it's good to be appreciated.

[Nibbens]

Good grief! I have players who want to burn down things all the time! Forests among them! This is so brutally efficient...

[Segev]

To be fair to the Samurai's player, from the posted conversation, it sounds a lot like the Samurai and others were engaging in sour grapes OOC because they were told "you can't stop him, IC." If they can't stop him, IC, they don't want to make themselves feel responsible for it, and so they looked on the "bright" side that at least it wasn't hurting the party.


As for Red Fel's curse, I think an additional bit of "scare" might be in order. Gradually raise his charisma and note how he's looking better. Don't use the word "prettier," but make the description be that of a more, shall we say, delicate and refined attractiveness than what one might consider traditionally rugged manliness.

No, he's not actually turning into a girl; he's just taking on more aspects of a dryad. If he doesn't lift the curse soon enough, he may well be a unique creature: a male dryad. I'm sure all sorts of fun can be had with the kinds of things that would seek such a unique being out. Not the least, perhaps, being other dryads who find him either horrific in mere concept or a very interesting curiosity...until they find out WHY he's cursed.

[KingSmitty]

If the cleric is a little green like you say, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. Just explain to them that next time they'd have to stop him or they're going to drop in alignment.

I find it very hard to punish players for their allies ridiculousness. Will an alignment shift cause the cleric to lose their spellcasting? That'd be unfair, doing deeds such as these does not affect the ninja at all. Perhaps a minor penalty to CL for a short while till they do some good deeds, or help make the ninja atone. I am unsure how close you guys are, perhaps theyre afraid of OoC problems from things that happen IC.

is pvp banned? If not I'd suggest to the Samurai he has to execute his charge for such insubordination and for causing him so much dishonor.

[AzraelX]

If the cleric is "good" he can't be apathetic to farmers presumably burning alive or suffocating. If he knows the forest has all of those intelligent beings living in it he would be terrible morally offended by the destruction and death of the act.
Sure, but he doesn't need to act on it. Being Good doesn't mean you're a predictable idiot; you can still weigh risk versus reward, and make a determination regarding what you can do, what you want to do, and if it'd be worth it.

A Good character can be internally offended while still staying silent and observing what happens. They can lean neutrally, and simply not put themselves at personal risk just to intervene in unexpected circumstances (and considering the Cleric in question has a Neutral god, this one sounds like the most likely case). They might also not be confident in their ability to do anything meaningful about it, or even fear that they'll make the situation worse.

Aside from Good characters who would do nothing, there are also Good characters that would do the exact opposite: start silently plotting the other character's death. As five minutes in most campaigns will tell you, seeking to kill people who deserve it is well within the definition of being Good.

Different "good" characters would handle the same situation differently. He was under no obligation to do or say anything, so assuming he wasn't actively helping, I wouldn't consider his actions even remotely questionable.

[AincradSurvivor]

I second or third the idea of turning him into a Dryad and making him atone for his crimes. What would be interesting is making him carry a tree, but of course make it one he can reasonably carry, a sapling if it is allowed, and have it grow quickly as if feeding off his own energies to mature. When it gets to heavy for them to reasonably transport (Even with a cart and the lot) then tell him he is now stuck to that place, till he lifts the curse.. which is to replant a whole new forest around his tree, and only once that forest is replanted and thriving will he be allowed to go on his way. But I have a feeling he will likely just throw away his character sheet and roll up another.

[goto124]

This part's important. A samurai has just let one of his vassals get away with wanton destruction and alienating a party ally. That is the height of irresponsibility and worth a good smack upside the head with the +Chaotic stick.

How do you stop someone when you're asleep and unaware he was doing something wrong?

Was he supposed to know somehow, and how?

[Ferronach]

What? The big LG and the big LE get along fairly well. I mean, even out deity aspects tend to get along alright. We complete eachother. RF is like the yang to my yin.

It was the cookies wasn't it?


First off, no backsies. Second off, I treat my minions very well. Equal opportunity employer. Dental plan and everything. Taco Tuesdays, Casual Fridays, and Summary Execution Birthday Parties for everyone.
The dental plan makes sense.. cookies and all...
How is the pay? Do you get overtime too?


Now, onto the curse bit... Hm. Do you want fluff-style curses, or actual mechanical ones? I've got some doozies for you, you might like 'em.

My favorite is, of course, restitutionary. Know how he burned down a forest to get at a single dryad? Go take a peek at the Dryad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/dryad) description. (I'm going with PF because it's more brutal.) See the weakness labeled "Tree Dependent?"

Oh, yes. You're going to give him a nasty bit of kryptonite. You see, one tree survives the blaze. Just one. And it's all his. He has to carry it around, protect it, treat it, care for it. If it dies, he dies. If he leaves it, he suffers penalties, as the Tree Dependent weakness.

Of course, he can lift the curse easily. He just has to replant the entire forest. He can have help, of course. Once he's done, he can replant "his" tree, and walk away.

Barring that, I'm sure there's an absurdly high-CL Break Enchantment spell that might do the trick. Or might kill him. Not really sure which.

How's that for a curse?

As for this, this is just purely delightful! I need to consult you next time I run a campaign!
https://33.media.tumblr.com/36e5dfc9877eaaca3f9acc9d7f541b9e/tumblr_na7w5u50Uo1t9x9ito2_400.gif

[Seclora]

How do you stop someone when you're asleep and unaware he was doing something wrong?

Was he supposed to know somehow, and how?

The listen check for hearing a battle, such as the one between him and the dryad, nets out to be about, eh, 0+1/10ft distance away. So unless they were deafened or silenced, they really ought to have woken up.

[Hiro Quester]

How do you stop someone when you're asleep and unaware he was doing something wrong?

Was he supposed to know somehow, and how?

The samurai should not have to stop him. (Players can't necessarily be responsible for how other players chose to play.) But if he was awake he could have tried to talk him out of doing it, or explain to him the reaction he would face if he chose to do it.

And after he wakes up he should respond. There should be consequences. (And not just Red Fel's brilliant curse.) The samurai could be expected to express disapproval at the very least, if not demand that his ninja servant make restitution to the forest (e.g. refuse to help him replant the forest).

BTW, one way of implementing Red Fel's curse, but not making the game too terribly not-fun for him or the rest of the players, would be to make the ninja hire a bunch of commoners and as tree-planters and nursery workers. Perhaps the Druid NPC would want to supervise?

Then the Ninja and the party can continue off adventuring (with potted sapling in tow), but the Ninja will be using some of his share of any treasure to pay for workers, supplies, etc until the job is done. The more he pays the quicker the work can be done and the quicker the curse can be lifted. Then once it's done he can come back and plant his tree.

And (if you wanted to rebalance the party at that stage) the Dyad that curses him could somehow imply that if he learns something from this experience, the dyad's deity might bestow on him some compensation (which could be an inherent bonus to a stat or some tree-themed wondrous item he'd benefit from) as a thank you, that might bring him back to the kind of abilities that his WBL would be able to buy at that time.

Either that or his alignment would continue to slide into CE and he'd be suffering the consequences of his evil choices.

[Sith_Happens]

How do you stop someone when you're asleep and unaware he was doing something wrong?

Was he supposed to know somehow, and how?

"Get away with" as in "without punishment."

[NeoPhoenix0]

Ha ha ha. Kids these days and their "organized chaos". Ha ha ha.

It's not organized. Just organized enough. Plot out how to make maximum impact with minimum effort. A match in the right pile of dead dry twigs burns the forest down. Such an even has unpredictable impact on people, creatures, forces, ect. in the area. From there you watch the flames of chaos rage adding a small amount of fuel when appropriate to multiply the havoc. The goal? Not really any goal. Sometimes there is a goal, but it can usually be accomplished quickly and from there you watch the chaos spread. Do note this type of action is not limited to outright evil and psychotic persons. It is just easier to give an example this way. It is also easy to call this chaos instead of evil chaos, which is why people give CN a bad rep and why many people give CN a bad name.

[Sheogoroth]

CE for just burning down a forest? The altering memory seems far less evil- the forest was burned down at that point, and that was by far the better option to killing the guy trying to kill you(justifiable.)

I feel like the whole situation balances out CN since he murdered 1 on accident, but spared another who he could have killed.

[Firechanter]

You're lucky. We have a player in the group who usually plays nominally LN Dwarves, but though he personally is a nice guy, his characters often act rather on the erratic side, sometimes downright cruel.

For instance, last session we had captured a miniboss and locked him in a (small, portable) cage for interrogation. He was very cooperative, and we also managed to convince him that if we were to release him, going back to his boss would be a bad idea. My character (LN Human) was willing to let him go, but I would also have agreed to Coup de Grace him if the party had decided so. However, the Dwarf picked up the cage (with the prisoner inside) and tossed it in a lake.
Pretty much everyone said this was a CE act -- not killing the prisoner per se, but killing him in such a cruel manner (drowning). Our DM does not forcibly alter a PC's alignment, but you could see on his face that this time he was sorely tempted to.

[NeoPhoenix0]

CE for just burning down a forest? The altering memory seems far less evil- the forest was burned down at that point, and that was by far the better option to killing the guy trying to kill you(justifiable.)

I feel like the whole situation balances out CN since he murdered 1 on accident, but spared another who he could have killed.

using one evil option over another evil option is still evil. admitting he was wrong and trying to make amends is good. killing or forcibly changing their mind is evil.

[Yogibear41]

My opinion on the fact that no one else cares could be because they don't care as players. They aren't necessarily evil, the just want to play d&d and not have their session bogged down with a bunch of moral/alignment/consequences debate. They just want to keep the action moving forward rather than be stuck in the mud because one player did something stupid.

Wish I had a dollar for every time someone in our group did something incredibly moronic that comes back to bite the rest of the group in the butt later.

Setting the forest on fire was definitely chaotic, and is at least slightly evil, but may not be whole heartedly evil, intent has alot to do with it. If he only meant to start a little fire then it got out of hand or something like that for example. Road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that jazz.

As far as knocking the person out who was attacking him for setting the forest on fire, and then altering their memory, I don't believe that is really evil at all. The character was just defending himself, and then trying to prevent future conflict by doing some memory altering. Granted I am assuming he replaced her memory with something harmless, like a lighting strike starting the fire or something like that, and not some sort of horrible memory that will haunt the druids psyche forever.

[Yogibear41]

You're lucky. We have a player in the group who usually plays nominally LN Dwarves, but though he personally is a nice guy, his characters often act rather on the erratic side, sometimes downright cruel.

For instance, last session we had captured a miniboss and locked him in a (small, portable) cage for interrogation. He was very cooperative, and we also managed to convince him that if we were to release him, going back to his boss would be a bad idea. My character (LN Human) was willing to let him go, but I would also have agreed to Coup de Grace him if the party had decided so. However, the Dwarf picked up the cage (with the prisoner inside) and tossed it in a lake.
Pretty much everyone said this was a CE act -- not killing the prisoner per se, but killing him in such a cruel manner (drowning). Our DM does not forcibly alter a PC's alignment, but you could see on his face that this time he was sorely tempted to.

Definitely an evil act, not necessarily chaotic though IMO, granted I don't know the details of the situation.

[AincradSurvivor]

Wish I had a dollar for every time someone in our group did something incredibly moronic that comes back to bite the rest of the group in the butt later.

Setting the forest on fire was definitely chaotic, and is at least slightly evil, but may not be whole heartedly evil, intent has alot to do with it. If he only meant to start a little fire then it got out of hand or something like that for example. Road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that jazz.

As far as knocking the person out who was attacking him for setting the forest on fire, and then altering their memory, I don't believe that is really evil at all. The character was just defending himself, and then trying to prevent future conflict by doing some memory altering. Granted I am assuming he replaced her memory with something harmless, like a lighting strike starting the fire or something like that, and not some sort of horrible memory that will haunt the druids psyche forever.
I would not agree with that, The person attacking him was justified in trying to stop him from destroying the forest, after all they where a druid.

The logic of you are just defending yourself doesn't always hold up. The druid was within their right and faith to attack the person who was killing many innocent people.

Look at it this way, if your character walked onto this scene and saw a ninja (character) lighting the forest on fire, and your character knew that there was innocent creatures at stake and many would and could die, then as an adventurer what would you do?

If the Ninja was a normal monster race would you even hesitate to kill them? If it was a Goblin Ninja would you even pause before rolling your d20 to kill that pryo? I doubt it, but it seems you are giving them immunity from judgement on the grounds that "He is a PC, and the Druid is an NPC"

[Mehangel]

I would not agree with that, The person attacking him was justified in trying to stop him from destroying the forest, after all they where a druid.

The logic of you are just defending yourself doesn't always hold up. The druid was within their right and faith to attack the person who was killing many innocent people.

Look at it this way, if your character walked onto this scene and saw a ninja (character) lighting the forest on fire, and your character knew that there was innocent creatures at stake and many would and could die, then as an adventurer what would you do?

If the Ninja was a normal monster race would you even hesitate to kill them? If it was a Goblin Ninja would you even pause before rolling your d20 to kill that pryo? I doubt it, but it seems you are giving them immunity from judgement on the grounds that "He is a PC, and the Druid is an NPC"

This is actually a very good point, players should not have discriminated just because it was a PC.

[AzraelX]

This is actually a very good point, players should not have discriminated just because it was a PC.
Right, they should have discriminated based on his race instead. A goblin ninja would get executed for being a goblin.

[darksolitaire]

I would not agree with that, The person attacking him was justified in trying to stop him from destroying the forest, after all they where a druid.

The logic of you are just defending yourself doesn't always hold up. The druid was within their right and faith to attack the person who was killing many innocent people.

Look at it this way, if your character walked onto this scene and saw a ninja (character) lighting the forest on fire, and your character knew that there was innocent creatures at stake and many would and could die, then as an adventurer what would you do?

I got the image that Druid attacked Ninja as retribution after Ninja had already started the fire.


He was hoping to get her to reveal herself, but in reality she had died because of the fire. To me, this is a CE act. When the party woke up, the druid NPC they were traveling with was furious and struck him with lightning a couple times. He then proceeded to knock her unconscious and alter her memory. Another evil act.

In that case, no, murder is not just reaction to setting a forest fire. Property damage and animal rights do not even come close to human life. It doesn't matter what faith Druid follows, she doesn't have the right to impose it to another. Ninja was well within his right to defend himself, and choose to refrain for killing her.

[nedz]

Forest fires are a natural phenomena and if the forest burned down so easily then it was going to happen soon anyway; so I'm not sure that this was CE, more CN really.

[Yogibear41]

I would not agree with that, The person attacking him was justified in trying to stop him from destroying the forest, after all they where a druid.

The logic of you are just defending yourself doesn't always hold up. The druid was within their right and faith to attack the person who was killing many innocent people.

Look at it this way, if your character walked onto this scene and saw a ninja (character) lighting the forest on fire, and your character knew that there was innocent creatures at stake and many would and could die, then as an adventurer what would you do?

If the Ninja was a normal monster race would you even hesitate to kill them? If it was a Goblin Ninja would you even pause before rolling your d20 to kill that pryo? I doubt it, but it seems you are giving them immunity from judgement on the grounds that "He is a PC, and the Druid is an NPC"


Happening upon an individual you have never met before and attacking them because they are setting a forest on fire is one thing. Attacking a person you know before asking them what is going on is something else.

[Sith_Happens]

CE for just burning down a forest?

Only because the character in question is currently teetering on the edge of CE already.

[Scheming Wizard]

Hello all I'm brand new to the forums. I think player decisions like burning down the forest should have consequences, but it is important to make those consequences seem realistic and part of the setting. A spooky curse affecting the player seems kind of like a punishment from the DM especially if it wasn't mentioned before the forest burned down. If there is an old witch whose hut just got destroyed and she curses the ninja who lit the fire assuming she correctly divined who did it that would keep the action going in game and in character. Player alignment should have consequences as well, but they should be reasonable as well. Not everyone knows if a player is evil just by looking at them. Paladins or a caster with detect alignment is needed. Most game setting also have plenty of evil people succeeding perfectly well. If everyone who does evil things suffers random curses from on high why are there any evil people or creatures at all?