Roguadin, or Palogue

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

So I was reading my copy of Blood Runs in the Family last night and the character of Niu came up, the Azure City Paladin with levels of Rogue.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/6/60/Niu.png/revision/latest?cb=20090225105931

So I got to wondering if such a character works in 5e. And I think it does, sort of.

Notable limitations:
-Can't dump STR or DEX because multi-classing rules.
-Limited to melee finesse weapons due to Smite/Sneak Attack interaction.
-MAD yo.

A STR build can work, but if you're gonna mix rogue and paladin, why not focus on DEX and get awesome stealth and initiative bonuses?

Variant Human is the race of choice, because ASI are in high demand and there are many highly useful feats. Particularly:
-Medium Armor Master: Get high AC faster.
-Shield Master: Has a lot overlap with Evasion, as well as competing for bonus action use, so if going to rogue 7, skip it. It is useful, especially when combined with extra attack, for generating advantage and therefore sneak attacks.
-Dual Wielder: 'Cause this build is either going sword&board or TWF.
-Sentinel: For extra AoOs
-Alert: if mixing with Assassin, going first will be important.

So, breakpoints. One could do Paladin 17/Rogue 3 and gain 5th level spells and a rogue archtype, but I'd say you're not getting enough out of the rogue levels to justify to loss of the Paladin capstone and introducing the above-identified limitations to the build. We need more rogue for our trouble.
Paladin needs a minimum of 6 levels to get their most useful features, 7 levels if going Oath of Ancients.
Rogue also gets a lot of it's most useful features by level 7, such as evasion and uncanny dodge. Grabbing more gets us more sneak attack, but also limits the ability to Smite due to losing spell slots, so that part balances in a way.

Paladin 11/Rogue 9 is all about the extra damage dice. 5d6 sneak attack and improved divine smite. Mix with Alert and Assassin for fun times.

Paladin 13/Rogue 7 gets either 4th level paladin spells or Evasion as their capstone. If taking the Shield Master feat, this build can be adjusted to 15/5, losing 1d6 SA and a second expertise, and gaining cleansing touch, some more spell slots and the level 15 Oath feature, such as permanent protection from good/evil, the ability to not drop once or extra reaction attacks.
Mix with Assassin for assassinate, or arcane trickster for a few more slots and some magical ultility. Just avoid anything with an INT-based DC, 'cause there's no way short of a band of intellect or fantastic rolls that this build will have a high INT.


Anyways, that's my ramble. Maybe someone will find this useful/interesting.

[ad_hoc]

Instead of just looking at 20th level, can you break down what it could look like at the different tiers?

At level 5 when other characters get their good stuff, what does the Paladin/Rogue get? What about at level 11?

I think that would give greater insight into the strength and viability of the different builds.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Well, one could begin as either class, depending on what saves and skills are preferred.
By lvl 3, you'd be Paladin 2/Rogue 1, giving you a foundation of having most of the core features for the classes.
Then you could take one more level of Rogue for cunning action, and/or focus on one class until reaching 5-7 in that class, then grab the levels in the other.

So at level 3, you're P2/R1.
Level 7, you'll want one of P6/R1 (Saves Aura, Extra Attack), P5/R2 (Cunning Action, Extra Attack) or P2/R5 (Uncanny Dodge, 3d6 SA).
After that, depending on build choice, you'll need to fill out paladin to 6-7 for the auras, get your rogue levels, and finish out the paladin levels.

[Daishain]

Note: If the first class taken is Pally, Strength can be dumped safely, which significantly helps with MAD. The ability multiclassing rules only apply to classes taken after the first

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Note: If the first class taken is Pally, Strength can be dumped safely, which significantly helps with MAD. The ability multiclassing rules only apply to classes taken after the first

I don't believe that's true,since according to p.163 of the PHB:

"To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score
prerequisites for both your current class and your new
one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table."
(emphasis added)

[ChubbyRain]

Go medium armor and keep your Dex no more than a 14. You will have a shield and a rapier for your attacks. I suggest shield master for the advantage smiting sneak attack without the need of a party member.

Half Elf Paladin (Ancient) 3/ Rogue 2
18, 14, 12, 8, 12, 14

Skills: Athletics, Stealth, Insight, Perception, Intimidate, Performance, Persuasion.

Expertise: Athletics and Stealth

Melee Attack: +5
Melee Damage (Rapier and Shield): 1d8 +5 dueling style
Sneak attack:1d6
Smite: 3/day at 2d8 radiant damage per smite

Standard Attack: 1d8+1d6+5

Standard Nova: 1d8 + 5 + 1d6 + 2d8 = 22 dmg average
Crit Nova: 2d8 + 5 + 2d6 + 4d8 = 39 Dmg average

Level 4 paladin take shield master, take the 5th level of paladin. Then take rogue to 5 levels. Grab a boost in strength if you want or perhaps a feat, with expertise granting you advantage (shove to the ground) your to hit shouldn't suffer much without boosting strength for now.

So now we have Paladin of Ancient 5/Rogue Thief 5

I would take paladin to at least 8 then grab the rest in rogue. However more paladin wouldn't hurt.

Along the way grab medium armor master or whatever the feat is called, now you don't take disadvantage on stealth checks.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Curious, why pump STR past 13-14 when you're using medium armor and a rapier already, and you go on to recommend medium armor master? Expertise in Athletics should be enough to keep grapple and shove attempts effective.
Also, why the Thief archetype? It seems like the least useful archetype to this particular build.

[ruy343]

So...

We have a guy in our group who is playing a Fighter 5, Rogue 3 mix. He's always able to land that sneak attack because we have many other melee-based characters, meaning that he's often dishing out 30 damage in a round. On top of that, he's got action surge, meaning he can really lay down the hurt.

Last session he snuck up on a sleeping hill giant and unleashed over 90 damage in one round. I can only imagine the pain that he could inflict if he could throw some auto-critted smite dice on there...

Suffice to say, if you've got a paladin and rogue mix, the DPR potential is amazing, even at moderate/low levels.

[ChubbyRain]

Curious, why pump STR past 13-14 when you're using medium armor and a rapier already, and you go on to recommend medium armor master? Expertise in Athletics should be enough to keep grapple and shove attempts effective.
Also, why the Thief archetype? It seems like the least useful archetype to this particular build.

Medium armor master so you don't take disadvantage on stealth.

Also if you ever lose your rapier and can only find a strength based weapon you can still have a decent attack and pull off your smites. Eventually you want to grab your rapier or another finesse weapon to use with Str, so you can pull off the Smiting Sneak Attack.

Thief archetype mostly because of the climbing and sepreme sneak. Also if you go Paladin 7/Rogue 13 you get "Use Magic Device" which will let your paladin use the helm of disintergration and you won't be showed up by your wife (OK somewhat obscure joke reference there...). Out of the three thief is the most useful to you in the short and long run. Assassins looks pretty on paper but in actual game play their abilities aren't used all that much.

When going sword n board you want to go Strength. You won't get weighed down by the equipment you carry, such as your shield, armor, and weapons.

With this build you have a great athletics, a good nova , a good standard attack, some spells, some great class features, and you can be both a Paladin/Rogue or a Rogue/Paladin however you choose to play it.

[coredump]

I would go Dex build, leave Str at 13-14.

Go Assassin, being able to surprise for a Crit, and then using your Divine Smite and SA dice....

[ChubbyRain]

I would go Dex build, leave Str at 13-14.

Go Assassin, being able to surprise for a Crit, and then using your Divine Smite and SA dice....

In actual game play it can be quite hard to get the assassin to work, I usually don't recommend it unless the DM is on board with that sort of game play.

One dude in Pittsburgh ran a Splinter Cell based game and assassinate was an awesome ability to have but for a typical game... Not as much.

Thief or Arcane Trickster are the two better, in actual game play, subclasses from what I've seen and heard.

[MustacheFart]

I am mostly in agreement with Chubbyrain regarding thief but I'd make my ultimate decision after talking with the DM.

Assassin has the much better damage potential but it's situational and heavily subjected to the scrutiny of the DM. I would honestly say to the DM, " look I want to play a divine rogue. I am wanting to mix rogue and paladin. I am also looking at taking the assassin path. This means I would have heavy burst damage by stacking smite and sneak attack on a critical during a surprise round. Are you okay with this? I wouldn't expect a surprise round every combat but it shouldn't be near impossible to achieve every time either."

Depending on his answer I would go either assassin or thief. Assassin needs DM input/acceptance imo.

However, I wouldn't raise str at all really. I would go dex and cha. Gauntlets of ogre power are still a very common item because most DMs remember them.

I would also go oath of devotion which will let you add your charisma to your attacks in addition to your dex with a finesse weapon. Charisma also satisfies the condition to get into paladin and stacks nicely with the skills/abilities of rogue (deception, diplomacy, etc).

EDIT: Chubby beat me to it on the talking to your DM part.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I would also go oath of devotion which will let you add your charisma to your attacks in addition to your dex with a finesse weapon. Charisma also satisfies the condition to get into paladin and stacks nicely with the skills/abilities of rogue (deception, diplomacy, etc).

That is pretty nice. All three Channel divinities actually work rather well. Ancients can restrain targets within 10' as an action, granting advantage to attacks until they make their save, and Vengeance can gain advantage vs one target for a minute as a bonus action with no chance to save. All very spiffy on a Palogue.

[MustacheFart]

That is pretty nice. All three Channel divinities actually work rather well. Ancients can restrain targets within 10' as an action, granting advantage to attacks until they make their save, and Vengeance can gain advantage vs one target for a minute as a bonus action with no chance to save. All very spiffy on a Palogue.

Very true. I guess I like devotion a bit better because there are fewer ways to raise your attack outright than there are to get advantage. It's pretty easy to get advantage. It's far harder to get a potential +5 to your attack.

[Chronos]

Actually, Niu is a fighter, not a paladin. Thanh was the only paladin in the Azure City resistance.

And thief doesn't really get you the most early on. Most of what a thief gets, an arcane trickster gets too, at up to 30' range. A bonus to climb isn't that big of a deal.

[Yagyujubei]

im doing a DEX Oathbreaker palarogue in my all drow campaign and it's working very well. due to homebrew stuff i get a snake headed whip as my weapon that can use dex which helps a ton, but I can bring the pain in a huge way. autocrit smites are hard to beat, and i took resilience DEX and shield master so I'm really really hard to hit with magic as well.

[CNagy]

Assassin can be difficult to work with an uncooperative DM, but then again a DM who isn't going to use the surprise rules as often as they apply probably should just go ahead and disallow the Assassin in the first place, or alter the Assassinate ability (if you begin your turn unnoticed, automatic critical once per turn on the first round of combat only, against an opponent who has not yet acted, or something to that effect.)

[Ceaon]

So I was reading my copy of Blood Runs in the Family last night and the character of Niu came up, the Azure City Paladin with levels of Rogue.

Is she even a paladin? I thought she was just a common footsoldier or something...

[AgentPaper]

So...

We have a guy in our group who is playing a Fighter 5, Rogue 3 mix. He's always able to land that sneak attack because we have many other melee-based characters, meaning that he's often dishing out 30 damage in a round. On top of that, he's got action surge, meaning he can really lay down the hurt.

Last session he snuck up on a sleeping hill giant and unleashed over 90 damage in one round. I can only imagine the pain that he could inflict if he could throw some auto-critted smite dice on there...

Suffice to say, if you've got a paladin and rogue mix, the DPR potential is amazing, even at moderate/low levels.

That...shouldn't be possible. Care to break down where all that damage is coming from?

[CNagy]

Autocrit, high rolls for damage and an action surge? It's technically within the range of a max-Dex fighter/rogue wielding a rapier. It is certainly near the top of that damage range, but even average damage on that is 70.

[RulesJD]

Autocrit, high rolls for damage and an action surge? It's technically within the range of a max-Dex fighter/rogue wielding a rapier. It is certainly near the top of that damage range, but even average damage on that is 70.

Um, no. You know sneak attack only triggers once per turn right? The best he could do is Sneak attack 1 turn + Action Surge for Sneak Attack readied action on another turn. But that's a very limited circumstance.

Rogue 3 = 2d6 Sneak.
Finesse weapon = 1d8 Rapier.
Dex = 18 (only 1 ASI on a Fighter 5)
Fighting Style = +2 damage

So damage on first turn with sneak + surprise = 4d6+2d8+6
Second attack (multi-attack) = 2d8+6
Action Surge + Readied action to attack on off-turn but before surprised creature's turn = 4d6+2d8+6
Total Max damage = 8d6+4d8+18 = 48+36+18 = 102
Total Average damage = 64

That is a realllllly specific setup in a really specific situations. During all other times, it's average damage is going to be pretty small.

[Jurai]

So I was reading my copy of Blood Runs in the Family last night and the character of Niu came up, the Azure City Paladin with levels of Rogue.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/oots/images/6/60/Niu.png/revision/latest?cb=20090225105931

So I got to wondering if such a character works in 5e. And I think it does, sort of.

Notable limitations:
-Can't dump STR or DEX because multi-classing rules.
-Limited to melee finesse weapons due to Smite/Sneak Attack interaction.
-MAD yo.

A STR build can work, but if you're gonna mix rogue and paladin, why not focus on DEX and get awesome stealth and initiative bonuses?

Variant Human is the race of choice, because ASI are in high demand and there are many highly useful feats. Particularly:
-Medium Armor Master: Get high AC faster.
-Shield Master: Has a lot overlap with Evasion, as well as competing for bonus action use, so if going to rogue 7, skip it. It is useful, especially when combined with extra attack, for generating advantage and therefore sneak attacks.
-Dual Wielder: 'Cause this build is either going sword&board or TWF.
-Sentinel: For extra AoOs
-Alert: if mixing with Assassin, going first will be important.

So, breakpoints. One could do Paladin 17/Rogue 3 and gain 5th level spells and a rogue archtype, but I'd say you're not getting enough out of the rogue levels to justify to loss of the Paladin capstone and introducing the above-identified limitations to the build. We need more rogue for our trouble.
Paladin needs a minimum of 6 levels to get their most useful features, 7 levels if going Oath of Ancients.
Rogue also gets a lot of it's most useful features by level 7, such as evasion and uncanny dodge. Grabbing more gets us more sneak attack, but also limits the ability to Smite due to losing spell slots, so that part balances in a way.

Paladin 11/Rogue 9 is all about the extra damage dice. 5d6 sneak attack and improved divine smite. Mix with Alert and Assassin for fun times.

Paladin 13/Rogue 7 gets either 4th level paladin spells or Evasion as their capstone. If taking the Shield Master feat, this build can be adjusted to 15/5, losing 1d6 SA and a second expertise, and gaining cleansing touch, some more spell slots and the level 15 Oath feature, such as permanent protection from good/evil, the ability to not drop once or extra reaction attacks.
Mix with Assassin for assassinate, or arcane trickster for a few more slots and some magical ultility. Just avoid anything with an INT-based DC, 'cause there's no way short of a band of intellect or fantastic rolls that this build will have a high INT.


Anyways, that's my ramble. Maybe someone will find this useful/interesting.

I'm playing an Aasimar Paladin (Devotion) 3/Rogue 1, going Assassin at level six and taking Rogue to 14, since I'm more concerned with SNEAK ATTACK! I started off Paladin for weapon and armor proficiency, as well as the amazing HD. At second level, I grabbed Rogue for utility (SNEAK ATTACK, trap finding, and other good things), then I took two more levels of Paladin and took Oath of Devotion, for +Cha to Attack. I'm going to pick up Rogue for my next two levels, and have her optimistic devotion harden off into a 'defeat the foes of Heironeous before they can attack his subjects' devotion, thence the favor of Rogue of Paladin. I'm having loads of fun, and just turned a zombie into a necrotic slush drink with a crit from a +1 silvered rapier and casting Thunderous Smite.

[Kidbuu51]

If your only going for medium armor start as rogue then gonpali, with a background skills you'll have seven starting skills as a rogue then devout level 2 and 3 for pali

[AgentPaper]

Vengeance seems like the obvious go-to oath to take, because Vow of Enmity is yet another way to get sneak attack (and just great in general), but perhaps more importantly because the vows line up with the rogue's schtick much better than the other two. Using sneak attack pretty much at all breaks the "Honor" part of the Protection oath, and while Oath of Ancients fits better, "be the light" clashes with the normal rogue tendency to want to stick to the shadows. Of course, depending on how you roleplay and your DM, those might not be a problem (could even be an interesting dynamic to the character), but Vengeance is definitely the natural choice.

Rogue archetypes are a bit less clear cut. Thief doesn't really have anything that fits especially well with the Paladin's mechanics, but if you want to be a sneaky paladin, it does that in spades. Assassin has more synergy, notably Assassinate which is incredible with Smite, especially if you have a lot of paladin levels and thus high level slots to blow. Nothing like dealing 2d8 (rapier) +3 (dex) + 2 (duelist) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + 4d8 (smite) = 39 average damage with a single attack at level 5. If you don't raise Paladin above 3, you could even go all the way to 17 and grab Death Strike to potentially double your crit for even crazier damage. Though in that case, your smite remains fairly small. Arcane Trickster doesn't seem to mesh well at first, until you realize that it grants you higher level spell slots for Smite, which could also be useful.

[goto124]

'Where there's light, there's shadows. There is no shame in embracing both' or something...

I've always read OoA to be about happiness and stuff. All the 'light' talk is mostly symbolic... the Oath only mentions 'light of hope', 'light of joy' and the light in your heart.

If the DM really cares about the Light bit... there'a always Oath of Vengeance or Oathbreaker (is being Evil a requirement for this?). I'll be hesitant to take Oaths under such a literal DM though.

[EvanescentHero]

I'm playing an Aasimar Paladin (Devotion) 3/Rogue 1, going Assassin at level six and taking Rogue to 14, since I'm more concerned with SNEAK ATTACK! I started off Paladin for weapon and armor proficiency, as well as the amazing HD. At second level, I grabbed Rogue for utility (SNEAK ATTACK, trap finding, and other good things), then I took two more levels of Paladin and took Oath of Devotion, for +Cha to Attack. I'm going to pick up Rogue for my next two levels, and have her optimistic devotion harden off into a 'defeat the foes of Heironeous before they can attack his subjects' devotion, thence the favor of Rogue of Paladin. I'm having loads of fun, and just turned a zombie into a necrotic slush drink with a crit from a +1 silvered rapier and casting Thunderous Smite.

Yeesh. I hope you have good stats, considering how late you're delaying an ASI or feat.

[AgentPaper]

'Where there's light, there's shadows. There is no shame in embracing both' or something...

I've always read OoA to be about happiness and stuff. All the 'light' talk is mostly symbolic... the Oath only mentions 'light of hope', 'light of joy' and the light in your heart.

If the DM really cares about the Light bit... there'a always Oath of Vengeance or Oathbreaker (is being Evil a requirement for this?). I'll be hesitant to take Oaths under such a literal DM though.

I wasn't so much talking about literal light and shadows, but metaphorical ones on both ends. The Oath of Ancients paladin is supposed to be the Light, being as visible as possible so that everyone can see them and learn from their example. Meanwhile, the typical rogue would prefer to be out of the spotlight as much as possible, blending into the crowd and generally going unnoticed. You can certainly play a rogue that loves to be in the spotlight, I was just pointing out it isn't as natural a combination as Oath of Vengeance is.

Oath of Protection is the only one that I think flat-out doesn't work, with the conflict between Sneak Attack and fighting with honor. A lenient DM and/or creative roleplaying might mange it, but it's going to be difficult and you shouldn't be surprised if it ends with your Paladin falling. Which, this being DnD, isn't necessarily a bad thing, it might make for some great RP. Just something you should be aware of beforehand.

[Rfkannen]

just feel like adding to this thread that the new swashbuckler's use of charisma would work well in combination with paladin.

[CNagy]

Um, no. You know sneak attack only triggers once per turn right? The best he could do is Sneak attack 1 turn + Action Surge for Sneak Attack readied action on another turn. But that's a very limited circumstance.

Rogue 3 = 2d6 Sneak.
Finesse weapon = 1d8 Rapier.
Dex = 18 (only 1 ASI on a Fighter 5)
Fighting Style = +2 damage

So damage on first turn with sneak + surprise = 4d6+2d8+6
Second attack (multi-attack) = 2d8+6
Action Surge + Readied action to attack on off-turn but before surprised creature's turn = 4d6+2d8+6
Total Max damage = 8d6+4d8+18 = 48+36+18 = 102 <Hint: here is where you messed up, you're missing 2d8>
Total Average damage = 64 <additional 2d8 makes this an average of 73>

That is a realllllly specific setup in a really specific situations. During all other times, it's average damage is going to be pretty small.

I love when someone takes this tone and still messes up their math. Funny thing is, despite my assuming too high of a Dexterity (I just jumped on the 8 levels mark without thinking it through), I didn't include the fighting style in the damage (you never know what someone is going to take), so my estimate was still low. To whit:

First attack: 2d8 (rapier) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 6 = 12-46 damage. Average 29 damage.
Second attack: 2d8 (rapier) + 6 = 8-22 damage. Average 15 damage.
Action Surge... forget sneak attack, use the 2nd action to just keep attacking!
First attack: 2d8 (rapier) + 6 = 8-22 damage. Average 15 damage.
Second attack: 2d8 (rapier) + 6 = 8-22 damage. Average 15 damage.

Let's add it all together: 29 + 15 + 15 + 15 = 74 damage.
Or... 8d8 + 4d6 + 24 = 36 - 112 damage.

So yeah, 90+ is closer to the high end but still well within the range of a Fighter/Rogue getting a surprise round with an Action Surge. A normal round with no action surge is 16 - 40 damage, or 28 average per round.