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Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-17, 08:40 PM
I picked up Heroes of Battle out of a game-store bargain bin today, used, but in near-mint condition, for about ten bucks.
Needless to say, I reckon this a coup for any relatively new sourcebook, but since I run large-scale combats at times, I'm particularly excited.

However, I'm wondering if anybody could point me to the particular gems in it- it's not a thick book, but it's dense in some respects, and I want to know how it plays.

What material from it has worked in your games, those of you that use it? What should I never, ever use?
Are there any particularly unbalancing items I should be on the lookout for?
How about weak options that look strong?
Interesting synergies with other texts?

Point me, if you don't mind too terribly.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-17, 08:43 PM
Check out the prestige classes, immediately. That's what made me fall in love with the book.

Also of note are the leadership feats, the commander auras, the teamwork benefits, the magic items (I love heraldric symbols!) and the siege weapons. Finally, they give a few good mounts in the back like the golem mount, and some pre-built armies complete with stats.

Heroes of Battle is my second favorite book. It was my absolute favorite until I found ToB. You, sir, got a bargain.

Takamari
2007-04-17, 08:46 PM
My DMs usually use it frequently for the premade armies. I personally have never read even a page of the book. I plan on picking it up...eventually.

jamez
2007-04-17, 09:14 PM
Dread Commando and War Weaver. Rock. Combat Medic is fun for giving Bards/Sublime Cords the spell Heal. Also, I like blast disks and the everlasting rations. I really like my copy and am jealous you got it so cheap. Heh, good on ya.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-17, 09:16 PM
I highly reccommend the building an army and the section on VP and all of that. It was partly common sense, but it gave a good sense on how to balance a war (various levels etc).

Innis Cabal
2007-04-17, 09:18 PM
all the above. It is a great book though some of the stuff in it is a little thick

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-17, 09:22 PM
Check out the prestige classes, immediately. That's what made me fall in love with the book.

Also of note are the leadership feats, the commander auras, the teamwork benefits, the magic items (I love heraldric symbols!) and the siege weapons. Finally, they give a few good mounts in the back like the golem mount, and some pre-built armies complete with stats.

Heroes of Battle is my second favorite book. It was my absolute favorite until I found ToB. You, sir, got a bargain.
I actually bought it for Dread Commando/War Weaver, player-wise, and I like the Heraldic symbol mechanic as well.

Good to know it comes so highly reccomended, guys.

This books looks like a big ol' pile of "Hey, remember that guy that picked up leadership? He's now your bestest friend."

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:27 PM
Most of the Great stuff has already been mentioned.

Another gem is the Spell Battlemagic Perception. Suddenly Counterspelling got a whole lot better ;)

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-17, 09:31 PM
Most of the Great stuff has already been mentioned.

Another gem is the Spell Battlemagic Perception. Suddenly Counterspelling got a whole lot better ;)
I..I love counterspelling. *single tear of joy*

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-17, 09:37 PM
It's just an all-around great book. Every player can benefit from it, it promotes team play, it can heighten an adventure into an epic, and the mechanics are just fun. It's a book that makes you smile.

Darth Mario
2007-04-17, 09:44 PM
It's an exellent, exellent book. The best material is the prestige classes: War Weavers are AMAZING charecters (instintaniously cast Fly and Improved Invisiblility on the ENTIRE PARTY)! Dread Commandos are also great.

Until I got the book, I had always wanted to run mass combats in D&D, which my group also seemed to want, but they never quite came out as fun as we had hoped. Then I got this book. As I said, amazing stuff.

Cybren
2007-04-17, 09:48 PM
There's really not much in there for the PCs to be able to actually wage a war and lead an army. It's pretty much designed to replace dungeon walls with a mass of never-ending soldiers that fight as backround color, as the PCs win the battle making poor tactical choices because it still nets them more VPs than anything else.

Macrovore
2007-04-17, 10:04 PM
it is pretty epic for a single party of combat-oriented characters to single-handedly defend an area against hundreds of low-level warriors and stuff.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-17, 10:15 PM
It doesn't have auto-set abilities for a player building an army, but it most certainly aids you if that's your goal. I made great use of the leadership stuff and the Legendary Leader prestige class, and your followers become way more useful when they're manning siege engines, performing arrow volleys, or utilizing good teamwork benefits/items.

Speaking of which, I think I'll expand on my old Legendary Leader character. He'll start as a knight, chivalrous, respected and loved. Naturally, he'll have as high of a charisma as I can get. As he grows on the battlefield, he learns to take up the reigns as a leader and gains the marshal class. His incredible skill at leading troops will get him into the Legendary Leader prestige class. After that ends, he'll take up the paladin class for a while to atone for his losses on the battlefield. Eventually, however, he'll come to realize that none of that was his doing and dedicate himself to both his gods and his people, becoming a crusader.

Total, by level 20, he'll look like this-
Knight 2/Marshal 5/Legendary Leader 5/Paladin 3/Crusader 5.

Now there's a lawful good man that you'd follow to the ends of the earth.

Jade_Tarem
2007-04-17, 10:21 PM
There's really not much in there for the PCs to be able to actually wage a war and lead an army. It's pretty much designed to replace dungeon walls with a mass of never-ending soldiers that fight as backround color, as the PCs win the battle making poor tactical choices because it still nets them more VPs than anything else.

Um, what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the DM sets the VP amounts. Just alter them so that good tactical choices yield more than bad ones. How do your PC's even know how much VP an action is worth anyway? They're not supposed to...

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-17, 10:27 PM
Hey, his DMs might also tell the party which NPC's yield the highest EXP/Gold/Item rewards for murdering them in their sleep.

Also, the book does state that having the most victory points doesn't automatically win encounters. If you write the battle to be properly dynamic, you can make choosing tactically poor or excellent choices effect the outcome of the battle.

TheOOB
2007-04-17, 11:20 PM
Well, the basis of the VP system isn't that the PCs win or lose the battle, but rather their actions influence the course of the battle.

You basically set what will happen at 0 VP (no involvement of the PCs), and put what changes as more VP are gained, for example, lets say the PCs are part of a small force on a waterside force who are trying to defend agienst sea invaders for 24 hours until reinforcements arrive.

It could be something like this:

0 VP: The fort is stormed after 20 hours, and the PCs force retreats with heavy causalties

30 VP: The fort is stormed moments before reinforcements arrive, heavy casualties but the fort is saved.

50 VP: The fort is held until reinforcements arrive

100 VP: The invaders are defeated before reinforcements arrive

This way the PCs can have a definate influence over the battle without you acually having to play the battle out, which is long and tedious, and more the realm of warhammer then D&D.

Keep in mind the VP amounts above are arbitray, real VP amounts are generated by the scale of the battle, the bigger the battle, the less influence the PCs can have over it (or the more they have to do to have an influence over it).

Darkxarth
2007-04-17, 11:29 PM
As has been said by others, Heroes of Battle is a fine book, and is my personal second favorite, right between Arms and Equipment Guide and Fiendish Codex I.

The Victoy Point system is good, it gives you the flexibility to design a battle in which the PCs can do nearly anything they want to and still make a difference.

The items and prestige classes are (obviously) great for a war campaign. I particularly like the Blast Disk (landmine) and the Combat Medic.

Yes, the pre-built armies are also great for making your battles in a hurry. It's also a decent template for creating your own armies.

Overall, a good book, and a great deal at $10. Good luck and enjoy.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-18, 12:42 AM
Heroes of Battle and Heroes of Horror are out of stock at my FLGS. Even if they were in stock, I'm almost certainly going to have to shell out like US$75 for the pair. I'm also wary of trying to get them off E-bay, because I suspect that even at US$10 apiece, between the S&H and the cost to send the bank draft via Airmail, the price would go right back up to the high 60s(well over 100 local, which is what I would have paid the FLGS anyway). :(

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 07:42 AM
I..I love counterspelling. *single tear of joy*
If you love counterspelling so much here are some ideas :smallsmile: :smallamused: :xykon: :belkar:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2404403&postcount=109
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12046188&postcount=11

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-18, 07:44 AM
It has stats for drow.

Riding Driders.

Look up those two monsters in the Monster Manual.

Apart from that obvious mistake it's an okay book but not something I'm likely to get around to using.

Person_Man
2007-04-18, 09:10 AM
This is one of my favorite books.

As a DM, I've used it to provide 80% of the encounters for a campaign I ran, and everyone loved it.

As a player, you should know that the War Weaver (http://209.221.178.225/showthread.php?t=769208) is one of the most powerful PrC out there. The main benefit of the class is that you can cast certain spells through your eldritch tapestry, effecting multiple targets with a single spell. So you cast Fly once, and everyone in your party can now Fly. You can store a certain level of spells in the tapestry, and then release it as a move action. So in one turn, you can release Fly and cast Greater Invisibility, and you now have an entire party ready to kill pretty much anyone. There are a bunch of restrictions on how this works, but its a very potent PrC, even at mid levels.

The other PrC of note is the Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6). It's a Ranger-ish PrC that grants an Initiative bonus to everyone in your party equal to its class level (max 5). This makes the natural entry Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) with Motivate Dex aura. This makes it really easy to grant everyone in your party your Cha+5 to Initiative, which means that your party will almost always win Initiative. So while the PrC isn't very powerful, most high level combats with magic users are usually decided in 1-3 rounds, which makes the Dread Commando+Marshal invaluable.

There's also a spell (Battlefield Vision or something similar) that allows you to Counter Spell as an Immediate Action, so that you don't have to prepare an action to counter spell. VERY valuable for full casters.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-18, 10:27 AM
And for undead fun, try animate legion.