Sorcerer/Wizard help

[Spectre9000]

So, I've been looking at trying to make the Sorcerer able to learn spells in such a way that I can have some solid ground to stand on when talking to a DM, and all the methods have seemed dubious at best. Therefore, instead I was wondering if there was a way to make the Wizard into more of the Sorcerer (along the lines of Stalwart Battle Sorcerer), though I don't need spontaneous casting.

I want either a Sorcerer that can learn more spells (note: Learn spells, not have access to more spells), or a Wizard that has more spell slots (mainly this) and more combat prowess. I'm not holding out much hope for the Sorcerer, but maybe I haven't seen your way to give them more spells known yet. I'm trying to make a gish build with full magic, which I will use with MM: Persist to buff myself with things like Haste. I want the ability to do things outside of combat with magic, which I'm unable to do (or at leave very limited) with a Sorcerer if I still want to be effective at combat.

Conditions are that it must be 3.5; no Dragon Magazine, nor Homebrew. Also flaws seem a little dubious, so I would like to avoid them, though they are 3.5. Must be a way where I can actually argue for the validity of them without it seeming like I'm trying to break the game (I'm really not trying to do that, I just don't want to be restricted on spells known so I can enjoy the game outside of combat too with non-combat spells).

[Troacctid]

Does Dragon Compendium count? Sha'ir could be what you're looking for. It has sort of a delayed spontaneity--you can fetch any Sorcerer/Wizard spell you've seen before, but ones on your spells known list can be fetched more quickly.

[Spectre9000]

Does Dragon Compendium count? Sha'ir could be what you're looking for. It has sort of a delayed spontaneity--you can fetch any Sorcerer/Wizard spell you've seen before, but ones on your spells known list can be fetched more quickly.


I haven't seen that class before. It seems obscure and created 2nd hand, though is officially licensed by Wizards. Might could work.

I just worry about the fact that if I want a divine spell, then I lose access to all my spell casting for the time my familiar goes to retrieve that spell. A divine spell's time to be retrieved is 1d6+spell level, which is a max of 7 hours for a level 1 spell. My spells only last 1 hour/class level, so at level one the spells would only last for 1 hour. That would be 6 hours without any spell casting at all if I'm reading it correctly. Also, considering I'll be multiclassing the number of hours I'll keep spells around will pretty much exclude any chance of using Divine spells. Given that I'm focusing on Arcane spells though this isn't as big of an issue, but still something to consider.

However, the bigger issue with this will probably be the rediculous DC check to retrieve a level 9 spell (Effectively a (DC 44 - Sha'ir level - Dip) for a Divine spell, and (DC 38 - Sha'ir level - Dip) for an unknown arcane spell). Failing makes this check even worse. At level 1 I'm not sure if I'll even be able to get my full list with an effective DC 15 (20 +1 for Sha'ir level +2 for known -2 for spell level +4 for Diplomacy +X Cha Mod)to get access to a level 1 spell that gets worse each time I fail. This problem is also compounded by multiclassing.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but seems pretty dicey (I suppose that's the trade off), though this class could work.


Any other ideas though?

[Troacctid]

If you need a divine spell, you would generally send your genie to fetch it the night before so that it'll be ready in the morning. Mostly, your bread and butter will be your spells known, and you'll have the flexibility to retrieve other spells off the Wizard list with a little prep time (i.e. outside of combat). Divine spells might come into play at higher levels, or for crafting items or whatnot.

Another option would be to play an Artificer. You're basically a spellcaster, what with infusions and all, except you can craft a scroll or wand or wondrous item of any spell in the game (and do so without spending xp).

You could also be a theurge. Ultimate Magus is an obvious one--you want a mix of Wizard and Sorcerer, well how about literally mixing Wizard and Sorcerer? Use Practiced Spellcaster to make sure both sides have the same caster level, and you can get away with only one lost level of Wizard casting. Alternately, [insert other theurge class here]. Early entry tricks are plentiful, so it's fairly easy to get into just about any theurge class with only one lost level of casting, and there are several that are pretty nice for gishes.

You could also always just supplement a Sorcerer's spells known with feats and magic items. Probably someone will come by any minute and recommend a custom Runestaff with the Ancestral Relic feat, allowing you to change the spells in it by spending time meditating in a hallowed space. The Easy-Bake Wizard is a build that comes up a lot on the Wizard side of things as being effectively a spontaneous-casting Wizard using, like, the Uncanny Forethought feat and some other stuff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sure enough, here I am to suggest the good ol' Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). You only need an area of consecration to modify it, and there's Incense of Consecration in BoED that you only have to burn as long as you need it active, and can extinguish it to preserve is remaining duration.

[Rebel7284]

Shadowcraft Mage makes for a great spontaneous wizard.

Specialist Wizard gives you a slot per level for the cost of two schools.
Focused Specialist gives you two slots per level at the cost of three schools.
Nightmare Spinner gives you a slot per level at the cost of losing a caster level.
Boosting your casting stat can give you extra spell slots.
Pearls of Power/Rings of Wizardry help with slots too.

[Troacctid]

You can also get unlimited bonus spells by being a Tainted Scholar (Heroes of Horror) with the Necropolitan template (Lords of Madness). Tainted Scholar lets you use your taint score instead of your normal spellcasting ability to determine bonus spells and save DCs. Normally having too much taint will automatically result in your death, but undead have no upper limit to how tainted they can become, since they're already dead.

[ben-zayb]

Shadowcraft Mage makes for a great spontaneous wizard.

Specialist Wizard gives you a slot per level for the cost of two schools.
Focused Specialist gives you two slots per level at the cost of three schools.
Nightmare Spinner gives you a slot per level at the cost of losing a caster level.
Boosting your casting stat can give you extra spell slots.
Pearls of Power/Rings of Wizardry help with slots too.

Changeling Wizard can even spec in both illusion and transmutation, so you can also use those focused specialist slots for juicy transmutation spells.



As an alternative, are you open to playing very unusual races? Say...a Beholder?

[ericgrau]

Something for both classes is tons and tons of scrolls, yet only 1-4 of each, and usually 1-2. You get every utility spell. It works because each specific utility application is often a once per campaign thing and you can replace scrolls if you really need to. When I did this with a sorcerer someone told me she had trouble figuring out which spells I actually knew and which were scrolls. I've done this often and I've been more versatile than the party wizard who didn't put in so much effort. On a wizard I think the greater advantage would be being able to cast longer and being able to preserve your prepared spells more for combat rather than utility, so you have more spells per day for both purposes. Wands and staffs are especially good on wizards for spammable spells such as invisibility.

I've heard that a focused specialist makes a wizard more like a sorcerer, and there is some truth to that. You can get around banned schools with enough unusual spells from lots of splatbooks. However unlike conventional forum wisdom I'd avoid banning evocation if possible. It's usually banned because the single target damage is easy to replace, but you want to keep it if possible for the awesome battlefield control and utility. The multi-target damage is helpful at times too. Enchantment is an easy ban since while it can be done it is a lot of work to make it powerful. If you have a party cleric or often other divine casters then abjuration is an easy ban. The third school to ban will probably be necromancy, though I think the school is highly underrated and if you can get another party member to cover another school it would be nice to keep necromancy. Transmutation and illusion are particularly easy for 1 party member to cover, even with some partial casters, but they are invaluable if no one else has them. If you absolutely cannot get anyone else to cover any schools then you might ban evocation and do your best to get good no save no SR nigh-indestructible large area battlefield control, plus some minor backup damage via orbs. So rather than hoping that wall of stone will substitute for wall of force (it won't), try spells like sleet storm, solid fog, black tentacles and web to at least partly help. They will be harder to fit in tight spaces and easier to escape, but with enough options you can hopefully pick one that your particular foes won't get out of in time.

[Tvtyrant]

If you want a Wizard who can fight I suggest Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order to net wizard casting on a full BaB body. Once you hit level 10 you will need to prestige out, but until then you are as good to go.

[SinsI]

You can get more spell slots by playing one of the Theurge classes, i.e. Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8, though not all of them will be from Wizard casting.
Similarly, you can play one of Ultimate Magus builds, i.e. Sorc 1/Wizard 4/UM 10/X 5 with Practiced Spellcaster trick to advance mostly Wizard casting.

If you don't really care about higher level spells or not above using some cheese to get spells of lvl 7-9, Chameleon prestige class provides a "Mini-theurge" version that is far superior.

[Petrocorus]

I haven't seen that class before. It seems obscure and created 2nd hand, though is officially licensed by Wizards. Might could work.

It is Dragon Magazine, so licensed by Wizard indeed.



I just worry about the fact that if I want a divine spell, then I lose access to all my spell casting for the time my familiar goes to retrieve that spell. A divine spell's time to be retrieved is 1d6+spell level, which is a max of 7 hours for a level 1 spell. My spells only last 1 hour/class level, so at level one the spells would only last for 1 hour. That would be 6 hours without any spell casting at all if I'm reading it correctly. Also, considering I'll be multiclassing the number of hours I'll keep spells around will pretty much exclude any chance of using Divine spells. Given that I'm focusing on Arcane spells though this isn't as big of an issue, but still something to consider.

You're reading this correctly, but most of your divine spells are not worth it anyway. Except Miracle, Freedom of Movement and a couple others, most of divine spells you can access are already on the Wizard list or have an equivalent on the wizard list, or are just not very good. The divine spells main utility is to open access to a lot of new PrC.

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag304/Petrocorus/JdR/ShaIr%20Divine%20Spells_zps3gp1zad5.jpg (http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/Petrocorus/media/JdR/ShaIr%20Divine%20Spells_zps3gp1zad5.jpg.html)

Concerning the retaining of spells, this is a real hindrance. That's why you must not retrieve spells too early, but continuously during the day, between fight, during room searching time, for instance. The Sha'Ir being from DragMag, it has had no support, but i'm pretty sure a feat for improving this would not be unreasonable. Talk you DM into letting you take a feat for using you CL instead of you Sha'Ir level for your spell retaining, your diplomacy check and the powers of you gen familiar.



However, the bigger issue with this will probably be the rediculous DC check to retrieve a level 9 spell (Effectively a (DC 44 - Sha'ir level - Dip) for a Divine spell, and (DC 38 - Sha'ir level - Dip) for an unknown arcane spell). Failing makes this check even worse. At level 1 I'm not sure if I'll even be able to get my full list with an effective DC 15 (20 +1 for Sha'ir level +2 for known -2 for spell level +4 for Diplomacy +X Cha Mod)to get access to a level 1 spell that gets worse each time I fail. This problem is also compounded by multiclassing.

Actually, bumping your Diplomacy is not that hard, Nymph's Kiss (BoED), Polite trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#polite), Bluff synergy bonus, Sense Motive synergy bonus, plus some other options (Otherwordly feat, Geomancer level 3, etc).

At first level, with enough point buy you should be able to get on a take 10: 10 + 4 (skills) + 4 (Cha mod) + 1 (Polite) + 2 (Nymph's kiss) = 21 + 1 (Sha'Ir levels) = 22
You can automatically retrieve all first level arcane spells.
And as the side benefit, you have boosted one of the most powerful skill in the game that can solve encounters with a single check and has a lot of other utilities.



Any other ideas though?

Yes, the Easy Bake Wizard Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=skifnivd54dv5g3ll4j1n3rqb4&topic=12336.msg211811#msg211811)

And the Spontaneous Wizard Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=skifnivd54dv5g3ll4j1n3rqb4&topic=474)

And finally, you can just ask your DM to use the Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist) from Pathfinder

[Extra Anchovies]

You can also get unlimited bonus spells by being a Tainted Scholar (Heroes of Horror) with the Necropolitan template (Lords of Madness). Tainted Scholar lets you use your taint score instead of your normal spellcasting ability to determine bonus spells and save DCs. Normally having too much taint will automatically result in your death, but undead have no upper limit to how tainted they can become, since they're already dead.

Note: this isn't accepted at all tables. The rules are unclear on whether the effective taint score granted by virtue of being undead can be changed, because it isn't an actual taint score, it's an effective taint score. Not really a debate for this thread, but it's worth noting that a lot of DMs may not like this.


Also, seconding the Easy Bake Wizard. It's great fun.