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Cluedrew
2015-05-01, 06:03 PM
So I have been working on a role-playing game for years, although not actively until recently. I have a lot of ideas, I have thought through the theory behind it and have started converting all that into rules. However I'm stuck with creating the first playable proto-type. Should I create something minimal to test the basic mechanics? Should I go for broke and create something larger? I tried creating something small but it felt too restricted to show off the game, I could just add onto it but I'm not sure if that will help. I could rattle on some more but that is the general problem.

How do you think I should transition the game from theory to practice? Even if you don't have a game or something else under your belt, you don't have any less experience than me.

ProphetSword
2015-05-01, 06:13 PM
I developed my own RPG back in the 1980s for my friends (back when the choices were fewer and we wanted something specific). What I did was start with the basic mechanics and developed a test version. They played around with it and gave me feedback (both positive and negative). I then adjusted it according to what they suggested and they tried it again. Each time I did this, I added a couple of new rules for them to test out.

Eventually, we reached a point where we had a system that worked. Then we promptly moved on to something else and never played it again! :smallconfused:

But, that's the best method. Start with the basics. Get some playtesters who want to play your system and can try to break it. Let them give you feedback. Tweak. Repeat 1,000 times. Eventually, you'll get there.

The Evil DM
2015-05-01, 06:16 PM
From a creative perspective one can spend a lifetime creating ideas and noting them down on paper. At some point you need to stop creating and start testing. It sounds like you are ready for testing.

Test each individual element of the game, and then start putting them together. Make sure the statistical distribution for the dice you use match the goals of the mechanics. Do you want events or outcomes on a linear distribution, normal distribution, skewed distribution and so on.

If you have the skills model any mechanics you can in a spreadsheet to see how modifiers affect the long term statistical outcomes and ensure that your mechanical system matches the story and style that you want to output with the system.

KillianHawkeye
2015-05-01, 06:21 PM
I agree with ProphetSword. You're going to want to start with a basic prototype so that you can test the primary rules and game mechanics. It doesn't need to be combat necessarily, although that tends to be a large focus for most role-playing games. Just decide what the most important part of your game is going to be and start with the rules for that, then add rules for other things as you continue to develop the system.

Cluedrew
2015-05-01, 07:13 PM
I developed my own RPG back in the 1980s for my friends (back when the choices were fewer and we wanted something specific). What I did was start with the basic mechanics and developed a test version. They played around with it and gave me feedback (both positive and negative). I then adjusted it according to what they suggested and they tried it again. Each time I did this, I added a couple of new rules for them to test out. I guess where I'm stuck is that first test version. I get the basic idea of creating a proto-type... how many options should be available. I tried creating one already, but it didn't feel like a role-play game when I went over it. It felt a bit like a computer RPG tutorial before all the mechanics have been unlocked.


From a creative perspective one can spend a lifetime creating ideas and noting them down on paper. I know this all too well.


Test each individual element of the game, and then start putting them together. Make sure the statistical distribution for the dice you use match the goals of the mechanics. Do you want events our outcomes on a linear distribution, normal distribution, skewed distribution and so on.

If you have the skills model any mechanics you can in a spreadsheet to see how modifiers affect the long term statistical outcomes and ensure that your mechanical system matches the story and style that you want to output with the system. The dice mechanic has a binomial distribution, which is basically a normal distribution. A spreadsheet/graph of the results sounds like a good idea, I have the calculation for any single roll worked out so comparing them like that sounds like a good next step.


I agree with ProphetSword. You're going to want to start with a basic prototype so that you can test the primary rules and game mechanics. It doesn't need to be combat necessarily, although that tends to be a large focus for most role-playing games. Just decide what the most important part of your game is going to be and start with the rules for that, then add rules for other things as you continue to develop the system. I started with stealth, not because it is the focus of the game, there isn't one mechanically, but because stealth intersects the most naturally with other parts of the game. So expanding and dabbling in other parts of the game should be easier later.

NichG
2015-05-01, 09:01 PM
Don't make things that you yourself wouldn't use. If you're making a game, I think it should always be in concert with a concrete campaign that you are running right then and there as you make the game - not to show off the game rules, but because the game you're making is the best possible vehicle for the sort of campaign you want to run. Then when stuff doesn't work well or players behave strangely compared to what you thought would happen, note it down and revise. You can start with whatever is necessary for wherever you see the campaign starting and add rules as things progress.

Banjoman42
2015-05-01, 10:01 PM
Something that as helped me catch a lot of things: Let someone else GM.
If someone doesn't have a predetermined idea of how mechanics should work or how a monster is supposed to be used, then they are much more likely to stumble upon a mistake you made. On the other hand, you as a player lets you test out mechanics that players might not use while you were GMing.
Of course, if possible, you should GM your own game at the same time.

Sasaisen
2015-05-02, 08:02 AM
This is something I've found incredibly useful when you're committing ideas to paper. It's borrowed from this thread (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=31521), which also has examples starting a couple of posts down (and several more scattered around those forums).

Name the PCs
In D&D the characters are called a "party", which stands for "war party" and it colors the entire system. In Shadowrun it's a "Team", in Vampire it's a "coterie". If you name the PCs a "squad", a "pack", or whatever, it matters.

Step 2: Write up a Six Person Group
Seriously. Using words, not numbers, write up a six person party. Think about what each character contributes to the story, to the action, to completion of mission objectives.
Does everyone have something to do? If not, start over.
Remember that it is entirely possible that you'll have 6 players or more at the table. If there is a structural impediment to the way you've designed the character "classes" such that you can't fit six players into a whole where each contributes, it's not going to work as an RPG.

Step 3: Write up a Three Person Group
Again, using words not numbers outline a group of potential player characters. Only now you've only got three characters to work with. Think about how the group can respond to challenges and complete mission objectives.
Is there a talent critical to the group's success that that is missing from the group you've outlined? If so, start over.
Remember that people don't show up sometimes. Also, some games are small. If the game can't survive without a full team, it can't survive.

Step Four: Outline an Adventure
Using words, not numbers or mechanics, outline an adventure. Block it out in terms of play time. Figure that you have somewhere between 2 and 6 hours. Any discussions that happen "in character" are resolved slower than real time. Any tactical combat is likewise resolved in much less than real time. Travel is handled almost instantly unless you make players describe in detail that they are "looking for traps/ambushes/their ass with both hands" - in which case it takes practically forever.
Are there substantial blocks of time that one or more characters have nothing to add to the situation? If so, start over.
If you use major "mini-games" such as puzzle solving or tactical combat, is every character able to contribute significantly to these mini-games? If not, are these mini-games extremely short? If the answer to both questions is no, start over.
If you have a tactical combat mini-game (or the equivalent) that takes up a significant amount of the overall game it will inevitably become the benchmark by which a character's worth is measured. Characters who don't measure up... don't measure up. Players who don't have anything meaningful or valued for their characters to do will wander off and play computer games.

Step Five: Write a Campaign
It doesn't have to span years of epic tales or any of that crap, but it does need to have a story arc and outline a potential advancement scheme as you envision it.
Does everyone have a roughly equivalent available advancement scheme? It's OK if no one advances during the campaign or even if negative advancement accumulates as people run out of ammunition and get injured. But if you envision some players going on to become a world dominating sorcerer lord and the other characters becoming better dog trainer - start over.
It's really frustrating when one player is flying around fighting gods and other characters are not. It really isn't better if the game ends up that way than if the players start off with that kind of disparity.

Step Six: Choose a Base System
Based on your previous work, consider what base system would best correspond to what it is that you're doing. There are a lot of game systems that you just plug numbers into (d20, HERO, SAME, BESM, etc. and whatever); there are a number of other systems which work fine for what they do and can be adapted to whatever it is that you want to do (Shadowrun, Feng Shui, WFRP, Paranoia, etc.). Consider the play dynamics and character distinctions that you want and the limitations of the system in question. If you want some characters picking up and throwing cars, d20 doesn't work. If you want all the characters at roughly human strength, HERO doesn't work.
If you intend the game to have a high and permanent lethality rate? If so, start over if your system takes a long time to generate characters.
Can you figure out how to model all the abilities that characters need to fulfill your concept in your system? If not, start over.

Step Seven: Do the Math
Once you've got this going, you can do the laborious, but not difficult task of actually plugging numbers in to generate the abilities you've concepted.
Run the numbers. Have the numbers you've generated actually provided you with a reasonable chance of producing the story arcs you're looking for? If not, start over.
Check yourself against the Random Number Generator. If high values that are achievable within the campaign can't lose to the low numbers also available in the campaign, you don't actually have a "game" at that point you just have "I win" - is that OK for the situations it comes up in? If not...

Strigon
2015-05-02, 08:40 AM
One thing you'll probably want to remember is that you'll never be entirely finished with it. You'll either have to call it a finished product, but one with updates, or never consider it completed (and thus never have a serious playthrough).
Look at D&D; they're still creating new editions, trying to come up with a balanced system that works every time. They probably never will, but that doesn't stop you from picking up the core rulebooks from any edition and having a complete experience. At some point, you'll have to say "I'm not done with this yet, but it's now gotten to the point where it is entirely functional as a game." When that happens, slow down your creative process! Seriously, if you add too much too quickly, it might completely break the game. Then you and your players have the immense chore of figuring out where it all went wrong - a task which would be much easier if you added the updates piece by piece.

Cluedrew
2015-05-02, 05:03 PM
Don't make things that you yourself wouldn't use. If you're making a game, I think it should always be in concert with a concrete campaign that you are running right then and there as you make the game - not to show off the game rules, but because the game you're making is the best possible vehicle for the sort of campaign you want to run. Then when stuff doesn't work well or players behave strangely compared to what you thought would happen, note it down and revise. You can start with whatever is necessary for wherever you see the campaign starting and add rules as things progress. I like that idea, I'll have to get some people to actually play it but I think I'll be able to.


Let someone else GM.

One thing you'll probably want to remember is that you'll never be entirely finished with it.
Both good ideas I will keep in mind for when the time comes. And I'll also be on the look out for when it is time to stop adding things.


This is something I've found incredibly useful when you're committing ideas to paper. It's borrowed from this thread (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=31521), which also has examples starting a couple of posts down (and several more scattered around those forums).

Step 1: Name the PCs
"Heroes" although technically its the literary hero, the protagonist rather than the good guy, the default mode of play is heroic and not always combat based.

Step 2: Write up a Six Person Group
The original splash image I tried to draw for it had 5 characters, if we add one we get:

Adapt: The one who hits things, generally also tough but nimbly and thoughtfully variants exist. They might have social influence through a school. If not the probably have a lot of practical and physical skills.
Sage: A support focused spell caster, in addition to their magic (which is way below D&D level) sages get social skills.
Shaman: A direct spell caster, there are variants but most are some variant of spell slinger with different extras.
Police Officer: An honorman to be exact (police are something else here), right now it is the system's main half caster. Oddly also the summoner. You can have the basic skill set without actually being an officer, which is what most of the characters will probably be.
Jack-of-Spells: Skill monkey, can do a bit of everything and can choose to excel in some of those. (Yes, it is a magical jack-of-all-trades.)
Shadow: The extra very sneaky guy, technically just a shadow-shaman but the specialisation gives it a different flavour.


Step 3: Write up a Three Person Group
Group 1: Adapt, Shaman & Jack: They have combat covered, socially they all have areas where they have connections (all different by the way) but none excels their. Infiltration could be a problem depending on the variant of adapt and shaman, but they have the option of branching out.
Group 2: Sage, Police & Shadow: In combat he police can hold the line with summons while the sage supports and the shadow flanks. For an infiltration mission the sage can be a face and might have illusions, the police is not as well equipped but has some options and the shadow is home.

Step Four: Outline an Adventure
Also from the splash art, the heroes are trying to get to one of the "upper-class" cities to deal with the source of a problem. The normal methods of transportation are closed to them so they have to travel for a few days across untamed lands and up a mountain to get another way in. Here the shadow is the one with the least to do as "catch the enemy by surprise" is the only use for stealth right now, so still not useless. Then they have to arrange the other way in, the sage will shine here and the shadow might be able to intimidate some of the less savory folk into being helpful. The journey in might not be skipped, maybe another social encounter to get in. Then some stealthy or combat sections to "arrange" whatever meeting they need.

Step Five: Write a Campaign
Something a little more combat orientated, starting with an adventure where monsters start appearing to in the country side. This eventually leads the heroes to a gate to the middle realm. They help fortify the gate to cut off the flow of monsters, which doesn't go very well as war is going on between the two groups in the middle realm. The heroes have to prevent this war between super humans spilling over into the human world. Let's say they form an alliance with the friendlier side of the war and offer support/supplies to get help securing the gate.

Advancement ways every character has ways to grow.
Adapt: Gets more refined and varied techniques or MORE POWER if that is the desired direction.
Sage: Has some very unique magic tricks to collect and improve on.
Shaman: Similar, as the shaman grows they have access to more/better spirits to draw power from.
Police: Improved combat ability and can use more summons and other tricks.
Jack-of-Spells: Jacks get to use a lot of other character's abilities, not quite as well so there is no shortage their.
Shadow: Eventually the Shadow will be nearly impossible to find, plus they get a broader selection of shadow themed magic.


Step Six: Choose a Base System
I actually built my own base system and dice mechanics, although it turns out it is similar to Shadowrun (that's right, no d20). I did it that because to try and create an environment were characters are strong, but not invincible. I've never actually played Shadowrun so I'm not sure how that feels in terms of tone. Setting is completely different for one.

Step Seven: Do the Math
I'm going to have to actually drop some difficulties and/or raise the starting stats so people don't just fail all the time.
I don't actually have a way to compare vs. rolls yet just tests against static difficulty. I'll have to do that.Like that?

KillianHawkeye
2015-05-02, 05:51 PM
I guess where I'm stuck is that first test version. I get the basic idea of creating a proto-type... how many options should be available. I tried creating one already, but it didn't feel like a role-play game when I went over it. It felt a bit like a computer RPG tutorial before all the mechanics have been unlocked.

Yeah, that is how early prototypes are supposed to be. :smallconfused:

Like I said, you should start with the basic mechanics of taking actions and resolving them (whatever kind of actions that seem important, be it combat, stealth, social interactions, etc.) and you play test it. I really don't advise waiting until you have all the features written to begin testing it, because it results in a ton of extra work if you find out you need to change something major.

Cluedrew
2015-05-03, 03:01 PM
Yeah, that is how early prototypes are supposed to be.I guess it was my experience in other related areas transferring over when they shouldn't of. I've made other games before and they have always had the "feel" in the first version, although lacking in both quality and scope at that point. I guess because the feel of the game is tied to its scope (through the number of options) I was disorientated a little.

Also my replies may have been slow, because you guys have spurred my back into action, so even if nothing else than that, thanks for the help everyone.

NichG
2015-05-03, 08:38 PM
One thing to keep in mind if you're planning to do this very seriously is that you should reserve a set of testers who you don't permit to see the game in the early stages. Fresh eyes see things differently than people who have been watching the system grow from this sort of prototype stage. People who are used to the prototype stage will tend to carry around assumptions even about the things that you later went and fixed, and it'll be hard for them to shake those assumptions compared to someone who is encountering the game fresh.

BayardSPSR
2015-05-04, 05:34 AM
I've done this.

Write enough rules to run a game. Then run a game. Change rules as necessary between, and if your players are really flexible, during sessions (that can work, believe it or not). Don't play for the long haul; run independent sessions (or low-single-digit games, at most). Invite criticism from players.

Then run it with different players - the more people who see it and comment on it, the better. Test it with different settings, different characters, and different playstyles.

When you have rules written intelligibly and playably, get someone else to run a game, with or without you playing in it. Playing in it gives you more observation, but you have to firmly emphasize to the GM that you're there as a player, not a designer; any rulings, house-rulings, or rule-changes are theirs to make alone. Observe any changes they make, and how they work out. Not playing guarantees GM independence, but you'll have to rely on second-hand information.

Repeat indefinitely. I'm still doing this. It helps to start thinking of your game as having multiple editions, which can be radically different; I'm starting work on edition 5.4, which will be a more tightly-concentrated version of my 5.3 with re-worked magic and hacking systems. One free bonus with edition numbers is that making major changes will feel like progress - which they are - not like you're going over the same material again and again.

Always remember that even the basic mechanics of gameplay aren't sacred, and should be changed when necessary. Kill your darlings. For example, for my 5.4, I'm working on making combat run on the same mechanics as every other action, instead of having separate rules - at least for the "basic" version - in order to accelerate gameplay. I admit that the old combat rules will remain as an "Optional Tactical Combat" chapter, but that's only because I've had some players appreciate their relative granularity and balance.


But most importantly, make something playable so you can start playing it. That's where you'll see what works well, what gets in the way, and what holes need to be filled. No amount of work without will suffice without it.