Gestalt Question (Not a Build)

[AincradSurvivor]

Ok so I was looking up some build ideas for a party member of mine, they are really bad at the mechanics but they come up with some fun ideas, if a lot of them.

The idea was a Captain America style character and of course I recommended the PF Shield Champion Brawler, which after reading he loved. But for his Gestalt he wanted to use the Swordsage from Tome of Battle.

What I want to know is would this be a good match? Can the Swordsage make use of the Shield as a weapon? Can it perform its maneuvers with the shield?

[Taelas]

A shield used as a weapon is a martial bludgeoning weapon. As long as the character is proficient in its use, there is no reason why the character shouldn't be able to use Maneuvers that require weapons with it. Keep in mind the rules for shield bashes, though: a character using a shield bash attack cannot benefit from the AC the shield normally provides until your next action.

[AincradSurvivor]

Ok so he can use it for the weapon part of his maneuvers, what about maneuvers that call for 'blades' or something I assume it will work as that is just suppose to be an indictator in the text right?

Would a Shield champion Brawler//Swordsage be effective in combo?
It does grant Weapon Focus (Shield) at first level, at second level it adds Wis to AC when wearing Light armor.

[Taelas]

Unless the maneuver in question requires a specific type of weapon (such as a discipline weapon), there shouldn't be an issue. I don't know of any that do, but I am hardly an expert on the subject. The name of the maneuvers are inconsequential; it has to require a specific weapon in the description of the maneuver.

I am not familiar enough with the Shield Champion Brawler to answer your question. A Swordsage pairs well with classes that use primarily Int and Dex, are comfortable wearing only light armor, who have full BAB and a higher HD than the Swordsage's d8, as well as a good Fort save. Other than that...

[AincradSurvivor]

Shield Champion Brawler have d10 HD, Full BAB, Good Fort, and Scaling Unarmed Damage which it gets to use for its shield.

Thanks for the info btw.

[Yuki Akuma]

The most specific maneuvers ever get when determining what weapon you can use is calling for a "Melee weapon" - and even then, some of them don't even need that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Definitely include Bloodstorm Blade 4+ in this build, it allows a thrown weapon attack to count as a melee attack (so he can throw it two-handed and even Power Attack with it), he can initiate Iron Heart maneuvers with a thrown weapon attack, and it allows him to make it ricochet back to him instantly after each attack if he wants. Plus he can qualify for Fighter-exclusive feats (Weapon Specialization) which will allow him to take Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery in PH2.

For gestalt levels I would go with Ardent (Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) or Psion (True Healer (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a)) and pick mostly buffs and defensive powers. Get a psicrystal and keep Share Pain active on it so you take half damage from all sources, the psicrystal's hardness 8 reduces every instance of damage it takes from share pain by that much. Keep it in a compartment on your person so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and can't hit it with area effects. You can even give it a healing belt to use on you during combat when needed. Get Vigor and remember to share it with the psicrystal whenever you use it.

[AincradSurvivor]

Shield Champion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo---brawler-archetypes/shield-champion)
Shield Champion gets that at level 5

[Taelas]

They do not -- what Biff is referring to is the ability to throw a weapon and have it count as a melee attack -- so you can use abilities that require melee attacks with it (such as the Power Attack example he gave).

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm almost certain there's a 3.5 feat that allows that, but have no idea as to the name or source. Doesn't seem to exist in pathfinder, though (thank god for an srd that includes splats).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

In any case I would still use Ardent or Psion for the gestalt levels for buffs. Using a shield he won't be able to benefit from any unarmored AC bonuses such as from Swordsage, and between Inertial Armor, Defensive Precognition, and Thicken Skin, he can run around naked with a shield and have the best AC in the party. Pick up Persistent Power and use it with those plus Offensive Precognition/Preconscience, Mental Barrier, Animal Affinity multiple times, Biofeedback, Psionic Freedom of Movement, etc. Just have tons of buffs and utility plus some healing for outside of/prior to combat, and spend every round full attacking, using Hustle to reposition. Get the Midnight Augmentation + Bestow Power trick to recharge your power points between encounters, so even after max-augmented/persistent buffs you've got a full pool of power points.


They do not -- what Biff is referring to is the ability to throw a weapon and have it count as a melee attack -- so you can use abilities that require melee attacks with it (such as the Power Attack example he gave).

Indeed. While Shield Champion Brawler does get exactly the specific abilities you would want for such a character, Bloodstorm Blade just does it better and with any melee weapon. Furthermore, making them count as melee attacks means you don't need Precise Shot, and you don't provoke an AoO when you make such an attack while threatened, plus you can (Great) Cleave with it.


I'm almost certain there's a 3.5 feat that allows that, but have no idea as to the name or source. Doesn't seem to exist in pathfinder, though (thank god for an srd that includes splats).

There's Brutal Throw in Complete Adventurer, which just allows you to use Str on the attack rolls with thrown weapons. Then there's Power Throw in the same book which requires both Brutal Throw and Power Attack and allows you to Power Attack one for one, whereas Power Attacking two handed gets two for one and requires two fewer feats.

[Extra Anchovies]

Ah! I remember now! Not a feat, but the second-level class feature of Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle). Swordsage can't qualify without a Warblade dip (Iron Heart stuff is required), but it also lets you use martial strikes with thrown weapons (which implies that it can't be done otherwise anyways).