magicking an unaware target

[Yagyujubei]

is there any benefit conferred by casting a save spell on a target that doesn't know it's coming? I'm AFB so I can't check;; and I'm trying to think of a way out of a really sticky situation in my campaign.

[SharkForce]

generally speaking, nothing beyond the fact that they're (initially at least) unaware.

arcane tricksters have a special ability that helps them land save-based spells on unaware targets, though.

[Yagyujubei]

generally speaking, nothing beyond the fact that they're (initially at least) unaware.

arcane tricksters have a special ability that helps them land save-based spells on unaware targets, though.

oh yeah forgot about that, man it sucks because I feel like that should just be a feature in the game rather than a class perk, but giving everyone access would trivialize a big part of AT...

[SharkForce]

the main problem is that if you give it to anyone other than the AT (who likely suffers from low int), saving throws can get to be too much of a guarantee. when targeting weak saves in the late game, it already gets to the point where they're 5-10% to resist something from a dedicated spellcaster (ie casting stat 20, +6 proficiency bonus, and no items boosting it in any way).

now add disadvantage, and even the good saves can start looking pretty ugly... for example, at +8 (which is pretty good) vs DC 19 (again, this is with no items to boost it; no ioun stone of proficiency, no stat tomes, no spell DC boosting items), you normally have a 45% chance to save... but with disadvantage, that's only ~20% to save. with disadvantage, the 5% scenarios start happening at 20% save rate, and once you get to the point where your target has only a 5% chance to save, a number of spells which are normally quite good become overbearing.

basically, we have an entire system which revolves around not letting the 3.5 scenario happen of "save or X" basically meaning "just X" because the save DC is so high that nobody has a realistic chance of making it unless they're heavily optimized. letting a spellcaster inflict disadvantage on all saves can really make a huge difference on that front, which is why the ability is tied in to a partial caster that is expected to have a relatively low int, few spell slots, no high level spells, and is not only tied to that archetype but is placed far enough in as to make sure it isn't a desirable splash because of all the higher level spells known you would lose.

[Yagyujubei]

i guess that's true. it's just in my game my group is kinda in a life or death (but mostly death) situation and the only thing I could think of relies on landing a DC17 hold person and a DC15 rod of command against two high level clerics....so I'm not optimistic.

[Mjolnirbear]

You have no Silence spell? Nothing that restrains (prevents somatic component spells)? Web, a net, a grapple...nothing whatsoever to neutralize a caster?

[ad_hoc]

i guess that's true. it's just in my game my group is kinda in a life or death (but mostly death) situation and the only thing I could think of relies on landing a DC17 hold person and a DC15 rod of command against two high level clerics....so I'm not optimistic.

Either way it will be a glorious battle and a memorable outcome.

It wouldn't be if it was a trivial encounter.

[Yagyujubei]

You have no Silence spell? Nothing that restrains (prevents somatic component spells)? Web, a net, a grapple...nothing whatsoever to neutralize a caster?

well thats not the problem, my group was infiltrating an enemies house in Ched Nassad as a favor to one of the matron mothers there, and we were going stealthy, and one of our members took the form of a young priestess using a hat of disguise...

but then she walked right into a ritual being performed by 4 other priestesses in a room with 5 spider golems and a giant statue of the matron mother that may or may not be another golem...we def cant take 10 enemies at once with just the four of us, so my plan was to wait for the height of the ritual, and have our wizard cast hold person just as I (who had a greater invisibility scroll) would be waiting to lay down a full power smite to kill her instantly, and then simultaneously our ally in disguise would use rod of command on the next oldest priestess and use her to convince the others that it was the will of lolth, and that she was smited by lolth because she was weak....if those two spells don't land though we'd almost certainly die.

[arawra]

well thats not the problem, my group was infiltrating an enemies house in Ched Nassad as a favor to one of the matron mothers there, and we were going stealthy, and one of our members took the form of a young priestess using a hat of disguise...

but then she walked right into a ritual being performed by 4 other priestesses in a room with 5 spider golems and a giant statue of the matron mother that may or may not be another golem...we def cant take 10 enemies at once with just the four of us, so my plan was to wait for the height of the ritual, and have our wizard cast hold person just as I (who had a greater invisibility scroll) would be waiting to lay down a full power smite to kill her instantly, and then simultaneously our ally in disguise would use rod of command on the next oldest priestess and use her to convince the others that it was the will of lolth, and that she was smited by lolth because she was weak....if those two spells don't land though we'd almost certainly die.

I'd say you guys gone goofed. Consequences impending.

[Yagyujubei]

I'd say you guys gone goofed. Consequences impending.

actually I've been re-thinking it, and straight up RP wise I see no reason my character wouldn't just abandon this person to their fate. I don't even like them and they've been jeopardizing our mission by alerting every person and springing every trap we come across instead of being stealthy.

I'm just gonna go on and continue exploring the compound with my two brothers and if she's still alive when I'm done then good on her.

[SharkForce]

actually I've been re-thinking it, and straight up RP wise I see no reason my character wouldn't just abandon this person to their fate. I don't even like them and they've been jeopardizing our mission by alerting every person and springing every trap we come across instead of being stealthy.

I'm just gonna go on and continue exploring the compound with my two brothers and if she's still alive when I'm done then good on her.

I can think of one reason:

do you trust them to not give you up the second they're stuck?

if so, then yeah, abandon away. if not, well, you might want to throw in a bit of insurance that:

1) she dies.
2) nobody can ask her questions after she dies.

[Yagyujubei]

I can think of one reason:

do you trust them to not give you up the second they're stuck?

if so, then yeah, abandon away. if not, well, you might want to throw in a bit of insurance that:

1) she dies.
2) nobody can ask her questions after she dies.

this is true, but honestly she doesn't know enough about us to cause us much trouble, we're from a house in menzoberranzan and we came to ched nassad without anything that could trace us back to our house(well i secretly brought my house symbol but noone knows), plus we have teleport, so we can likely get away if needs be from immediate death. but if we can't map the place out better it will be a disgraceful failure, and were on a time limit.

EDIT: the person in disguise does still have her use of divine intervention, so I told her it might be worth it to try and impose disadvantage on that save using that. so there might be no problem in the end anyway if that works out.