Dvati Redesign Discussion (the umpteenth)

[Segev]

Not a new topic, because of the difficulties with how the race is written. But, as it's a cool concept, I want to play with it a bit and see if we can't tighten up its mechanics into something that is:

1) Clear on what it does
2) Usable
3) maybe even balanced

I have, on my own, tried re-writing the Dvati race a few times. Each effort has illustrated to me why the writer of the race had such a hard time making something coherent.

In no small part, the problem lies in trying to define what is and is not "shared." One mind in two bodies is a simple enough concept on the surface, but has a great many potential hangups in actual implementation within a rule set designed to treat each entity as 100% discrete.

The ground rule with which I generally try to start is: "They have one mind, so anything that affects the mind effects the entire Dvati entity; they have two bodies, so anything that effects something physical about them effects only the targetted body."

I'm willing to flex that a bit ("sharing buffs" might be a valid thing, for instance), but it's a starting, general ground rule. It generally means that, as examples, if you polymorph one body, the other doesn't change shape; if you Charm either body, you have Charmed the mind and thus have both bodies.

This leads to needing to spell out what constitutes "purely mental" and/or "spiritual" effects as opposed to "bodily" or "physical" ones. Modifiers to physical stats should probably be per-body. Modifiers to mental ones should be universal. Hit points and healing should probably be per-body. Magic items generally should work only on the body wearing them, though ones which impact mental state might work either way. But should a Cloak of Resistance on one body apply to Will saves made against effects targetting the other? Clearly, it probably shouldn't for Fort. and Reflex saves, being purely physical things. I'm inclined, given that it's a Resistance bonus, to even deny the Will save. The other body is just plain more vulnerable, so the mind is more vulnerable when targetted through it.

The other sticky point is actions. This is a very delicate area, because on the one hand, I would like to see the dvati able to have both bodies move and mostly act independently. A dvati with one body in the tavern while the other is out shopping should be able to have each acting largely independently, without any overt evidence to those who don't know their nature that they're only "half there."

At the same time, a dvati shouldn't be getting double actions. From an aesthetic point of view, I'd almost like to see a dvati taking the Full Attack action not count as having two sets of full attacks, but instead counting as if he were a four-armed creature (thus able to take multiattack).

My thoughts right now are to give each body its own move action, and to give the Dvati only one Standard and Swift action per round between the two of them. Taking a full-round action leaves the other body with only a move action (unless it was participating in the full-round action, in which case it doesn't get to move, either). Then, give them a racial ability to spend their swift action to allow one body to claim the one Standard or Full-Round action for that round, and the other to take a Standard or Full-Round action to perform or maintain a skill check.

This would allow them to have normal-ish actions, plus still do non-combat things with their other body, with only the modicum of distraction represented by having to expend their swift action to get the skill-action.


This is, however, obviously clumsily worded, and has more holes than cheesecloth.

Thoughts? Ideas on how better to represent the race? Disagreements with what they SHOULD be able to do?

How would you like to see them operate, and how would you implement mechanics to make it happen?

[Troacctid]

Write a finite list of things that they share. Not on the list? Not shared.

[Anlashok]

I'd probably let them keep two full actions, but tighten up the wording about no spells and make sure SLAs, SUs and psionics are covered by it too.

Having two turns is great, but they can only really do that with martial classes... with their health and wbl nearly cut in half as no other racial features. Especially problematic at low levels when your Dvati fighter 1 with 16 con has 8 health and a human with the same stats is going to have 21.

The former problem is easier to handle at later levels, but then you're dealing with a high level martial (yawn) who isn't going to be able to spend as much on utility as other high level martials which just exacerbates other issues.

[Segev]

Write a finite list of things that they share. Not on the list? Not shared.Could and probably would lead to some odd corner cases of things that are not on the list that "should" be under one or another circumstance. And the converse: something on the list may wind up, under some circumstance, not making sense to be shared.

That said, this is a pretty good idea for forming a solid core set.


To start the list of things explicitly shared:
Intelligence score (and bonuses/penalties thereto)
Wisdom score (and bonuses/penalties thereto)
Charisma score (and bonuses/penalties thereto)
Perception/senses
Mind-Affecting Effects
Thoughts, memories (obviously, being only one mind)
Initiative score (if in the same encounter)
Class Features (one set between them)
Feats (one set between them)
Skill ranks (one set between them)
Competence, divine, luck, morale, and profane bonuses
Stat bonuses from leveling up (one set between them)
Essentia pool (one set between them)
NOT soulmelds; they have two bodies to put them on, after all.


Anything else people can think of?

Edited to add additional suggestions: Spell Slots/Spells Known (one set between them)
Powers known/Power Points (one set between them)
Spell-like/Supernatural/Extraordinary ability uses per time period (one set between them)
added "morale bonuses" to the above list
Swift and immediate actions (one set between them)

[Troacctid]

Spell slots. Let's not have them get double the number of spells per day.

There are going to be odd corner cases no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is to create good gameplay and avoid dysfunctions.

[Aergoth]

What about morale bonuses (the bard generating inspire competence for instance?) If one body is affected by silence and the other can still hear the performance, would they share the bonus?

When you have to write a list like this, you want to keep the balance of power in the GM's hands. That means that RAW will support RAI not be used to get around it.

So a possible wording to put at the start of this list is:

The following is a list of elements (bonuses/penalties, ability scores etc.) that are shared between the bodies of a Dvati character, to which either body has access during play and which both bodies draw from a single common source. This list does not cover all possible situational circumstances and should be used by the GM as a guideline when determining which qualities or effects would be shared by a Dvati character's body.

The thing that helps there is using the words "a dvati character". Since this explicitly calls it out as one character with two bodies.
By most readings, this means that regardless of how many bodies you have, you're still working with the same rules as any other character, except where they're explicitly spelled out, much like the rules for multi-attack.
A caster using astral projection (And I'm looking at pathfinder's astral projection since that's what I've been playing right now) has two bodies, one on the astral as the result of the spell, and a physical body that the projection linked to, and even a second physical body overall if you jump from the astral to another plane.
There's a few slight differences (the rules about copies of gear and so on) but since regardless of how many bodies you have you're still a single character that happens to be operating another body by remote, it's a good place to have to compare for the Dvati.

[Twice]

If they both keep full actions (which I personally believe is fair actually) be careful with Psionics. Mind you, most psions just burn power points in one big ultrapowered attack anyway.

[Anthrowhale]

This seems like a fun effort. I like the mental/physical divide for effects, and that seems reasonably well specified.

W.r.t. actions, treating a Dvati as an entity with 2 heads and 4 arms allows them to take [Improved, Greater, Perfect] Multiweapon Fighting (iteratives for all limbs), Multitasking (1 standard action with each limb), and Multivoice (2 standard action spells as a full round action) as feats.

This isn't enough, because a default Dvati would need to split all actions amongst the bodies which is crippling when walking down the street. This suggests something like:

Dvati Dual Actions: Dvati normally divide all actions amongst their bodies, but for any action which does not require concentration and which both bodies are allowed to do, both Dvati bodies can perform the same action.

This makes sense, as a single mind can execute two actions not requiring concentration. It allows things like both walk, both attack, both full attack, etc... It does not allow casting two spells, using two psionic powers, concentrating on two spells, activating two spell-completion items or using two spell-like abilities. It does allow double supernatural abilities (i.e. double Turn Undead) and double extraordinary abilities.

Essentially all move actions can be duplicated, but since they must be the same move action, this is often not useful---there is little sense in opening a door twice. If one body is prone and the other not, the 'stand' action can't be done twice. If one body goes to market while the other stays home, most of the time the two actions can't be replicated as there is little synergy in what they do.

Another significant limit is budgeted abilities. For example, a skill trick is not allowed since it is 1/encounter and martial maneuvers can only be used once before being refreshed.

[Segev]

Morale bonuses definitely should be shared, you're right. I knew I was forgetting at least one type of bonus.

3.5 doesn't quite support the loose-intentions style of rules that the "dual actions" description relies on. It's a good start, though, and it got me to thinking about how you have a primary and off hand, but that the rules don't specify that that designation has to remain the same. I'm sure the intent was that you choose to be right or left-handed, but the RAW permit that, if you happen to decide you want to hold a different weapon in each hand, you can choose round-by-round which hand counts as "primary."

This concept could be carried a bit further to give the dvati a normal body and an "extra" body.

The dvati's normal body follows all the normal rules for action economy. The extra body may participate in any action in which the normal body engages as if it were part of the normal body, providing extra limbs (e.g. for multiattack) or an extra head (e.g. for multivoice). The extra body must be in range of the target of this action to participate in this fashion. If the extra body is not participating in a full-round action performed by the normal body, the extra body gets its own, independent move action. As a swift action, the extra body may also be empowered to independently take a standard or (at the additional cost of its independent move action) full-round action; this action may only be to make or continue making a skill check.