Then new [Unchained] Summoner

[CGNefarious]

So I'm going to be DMing a new game this month in which two of my players will be gestalting with Summoner. Looking at the new Summoner in Unchained I can see that they've lowered the amount of evolution points, but granting extra evolutions based on type, changed some of the costs of evolutions, and modified the spell list.

My question is, what effect does this all actually have? I know the limited evolutions seems to upset people, and I can understand from a customizability standpoint, but how are the changes to evolution values and the spell list? I've never played a Summoner, so I can't really judge all that well. Would it be worth considering implementing the latter two options at least, if not the eidolon types?

[Secret Wizard]

The Summoner now requires some finesse in building and cannot master everything simultaneously. The most egregious evolutions (Pounce) now take more evolution points, so their eidolons are tamer but still strong. I like it.

However...


gestalting

Are you expecting any player not to be a walking battlecruiser?

[CGNefarious]

Oh no, I'm definitely expecting this to be a very high powered campaign. But the question came up of what we'll be using from Unchained, and I wanted opinions of people who likely know much more about the Summoner and what these changes actually mean for the class. I'm likely going to give the group the option of whether to use the old eidolon or the new format, but things like pounce being 3 evolution points just make a lot more sense to me than the old costs. Looking at it I don't think it would really hurt the class all that much, but it would reign them in during the early levels where they outshine the martial classes a bit too much.

Still, I don't know the overall effect on the classes power, which I don't want to ruin. And I have no opinion one way or the other on the spells, so I wanted to see others' thoughts.

[Ssalarn]

Still, I don't know the overall effect on the classes power, which I don't want to ruin. And I have no opinion one way or the other on the spells, so I wanted to see others' thoughts.

The eidolon changes primarily balance out the eidolon and remove the "create your own eldritch horror from beyond" builds. In a gestalt game I'd actually use the original eidolon rules and advancement; this is because companions usually perform under par in a group where all the players are so beefed up. The core eidolon is a perfect match for that power level, especially during the first 8 levels of play.

The other big change to the Summoner is the spell list, which was actually a much more meaningful and necessary change IMHO. They resolved a lot of the early access spells and associated crafting issues, and the Unchained Summoner is much closer to being a 2/3 caster with a pet than the core "full caster in 2/3 clothing".

[Gnaeus]

I actually banned 2 classes in my gestalt 3.pf game. Summoner and Factotum. While not badly balanced alone, both are pretty broken in gestalt compared with almost any other option. Summoner functionally gives you a second PC at minimal cost. A bog standard gestalt is stronger than a same level PC, but weaker than 2 same level PCs because of action economy. Almost anything//factotum or summoner is likely to be as strong as or stronger than 2 same level PCs.

[9mm]

It depends on what the unchained summoner wants to do. If it is to abuse the spell list (now revised) or make a pouncing death ball (Evolution points halved), it'll be weaker. If it wants to spam the summon monster SLA (Unchanged), it'll be just as strong as the normal summoner.