Way of the Monk

[DeKnight]

Hey there, guys.
I was thinking of creating an Open-Hand monk and wanted to ask for some help with my decisions.

I'm going to use the base stats for creating this monk so here is how I plan on distributing the stats:

STR: 12
DEX: 15
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 10

Would that be a good distribution stat distribution?
I was also thinking about being either an elf for the Dex bonus and Darkvision or be a variant human with the Alert or the Observant feat.
Which would work better for the race?

EDIT: What would be a good background for the character? I was thinking of Sage or Sailor for the perception. Any feedback?

[Madfellow]

Either one can work fine. If you go variant human, be sure to boost your wisdom and constitution. If you go elf, I'd point toward wood elf and possibly change around the stats a bit. Something like this:

STR: 12
DEX: 14+2
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 15+1
CHA: 10

[Mandragola]

I made a wood elf monk with the following stats:

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 8

Note that's points buy, not standard array. I've bought a 15, two 14s and two 10s, leaving charisma at 8.

It was a great character to play. I found that being proficient with longbows and the extra speed really helped. A monk is a weirdly good archer, because people can't really shoot you back! Not saying that they are better than proper archers, but it's great to have the ability.

I went with shadow rather than open hand, but you kind of want the same stats regardless. Basically, max out dex and wis, with con because everyone wants con.

[DeKnight]

Either one can work fine. If you go variant human, be sure to boost your wisdom and constitution. If you go elf, I'd point toward wood elf and possibly change around the stats a bit. Something like this:

STR: 12
DEX: 14+2
CON: 13
INT: 8
WIS: 15+1
CHA: 10

Thought I would double check, and pardon my ignorance, the wood elf subrace adds the WIS+1 on top of the natural DEX+2?

[RedMage125]

Alert is a good feat. The Open Hand monk in the game I DM picked Mobility as his feat, and it's pretty good, too. Avoiding AoOs, as well as an early boost to speed are pretty awesome for a monk.

[DeKnight]

Alert is a good feat. The Open Hand monk in the game I DM picked Mobility as his feat, and it's pretty good, too. Avoiding AoOs, as well as an early boost to speed are pretty awesome for a monk.

How was he doing during the adventure at later levels?

[RedMage125]

How was he doing during the adventure at later levels?

Fine, they're level 5 now. Why do you ask?

Mobility keeps him as a highly mobile combatant, and the extra speed has come in handy very often.

The other melee powerhouse is a Greatweapon Battlemaster Fighter (party also contains an Arcane Trickster who mixes melee with ranged attacks), the Monk's ability to zip around the battlefield has been a great asset.

[Mandragola]

Thought I would double check, and pardon my ignorance, the wood elf subrace adds the WIS+1 on top of the natural DEX+2?

Yes. All elves fm get +2 dex, then the sub races get an extra +1 int, cha or wis.

[DeKnight]

Fine, they're level 5 now. Why do you ask?

Mobility keeps him as a highly mobile combatant, and the extra speed has come in handy very often.

The other melee powerhouse is a Greatweapon Battlemaster Fighter (party also contains an Arcane Trickster who mixes melee with ranged attacks), the Monk's ability to zip around the battlefield has been a great asset.

Because I'm still split on either a wood elf monk or a variant human X3

The early feat has so much potential but then there's also the Darkvision that is very beneficial. So me asking about later levels kind of help me build an idea of how well the feats would work based on other people's experience rather than simulated events in my head.

[DeKnight]

Yes. All elves fm get +2 dex, then the sub races get an extra +1 int, cha or wis.

Thanks for the clarification on that.

[ad_hoc]

Because I'm still split on either a wood elf monk or a variant human X3

The early feat has so much potential but then there's also the Darkvision that is very beneficial. So me asking about later levels kind of help me build an idea of how well the feats would work based on other people's experience rather than simulated events in my head.

Do you have to use the standard array or can you use point buy?

Wood Elf is best with the array. Variant Human is better with point buy. If you must use standard array and you go variant human then taking Observant will let you have 16 Dex and 16 Wis.

The power of the Variant Human is that you can have a feat and have the same stat progression of other races.

[Nod_Hero]

Because I'm still split on either a wood elf monk or a variant human X3

The early feat has so much potential but then there's also the Darkvision that is very beneficial. So me asking about later levels kind of help me build an idea of how well the feats would work based on other people's experience rather than simulated events in my head.

I just went thru this struggle myself. I ended up taking Wood Elf for three reasons:
1) +1 AC at lower levels (Dex/Wis 16/16 instead of 16/15 for Human)
2) Racial Traits (Darkvision, Sleep/Charm defense, Perception proficiency and Trance all awesome, Longbow helps with early levels, extra move makes me speedy)
3) Long term progress. The Human would start with a feat, but be one tier behind with Wisdom (unless the starting feat added Wisdom, but I was looking at Mobility or Magic Initiate over Observant). So less AC until level 19.

[DeKnight]

Do you have to use the standard array or can you use point buy?

Wood Elf is best with the array. Variant Human is better with point buy. If you must use standard array and you go variant human then taking Observant will let you have 16 Dex and 16 Wis.

The power of the Variant Human is that you can have a feat and have the same stat progression of other races.

Standard array and that's essentially what I thought when being a variant human, picking up Observant.
Would the feat be better than Darkvision? Or would it be better to be a wood elf with Darkvision and then pick up feats later on, like at lvl4 or later on.

[RulesJD]

I just went thru this struggle myself. I ended up taking Wood Elf for three reasons:
1) +1 AC at lower levels (Dex/Wis 16/16 instead of 16/15 for Human)
2) Racial Traits (Darkvision, Sleep/Charm defense, Perception proficiency and Trance all awesome, Longbow helps with early levels, extra move makes me speedy)
3) Long term progress. The Human would start with a feat, but be one tier behind with Wisdom (unless the starting feat added Wisdom, but I was looking at Mobility or Magic Initiate over Observant). So less AC until level 19.

You can just add +1 to Dex and +1 to Wis. Unless you're sure you're campaign is going to level 14 (rare to actually happen), then I recommend starting with Resiliency (Wis). That way you can start with 16/16/16 Dex/Con/Wis as well as proficiency in Wisdom saves, which is crucial.

[DeKnight]

I just went thru this struggle myself. I ended up taking Wood Elf for three reasons:
1) +1 AC at lower levels (Dex/Wis 16/16 instead of 16/15 for Human)
2) Racial Traits (Darkvision, Sleep/Charm defense, Perception proficiency and Trance all awesome, Longbow helps with early levels, extra move makes me speedy)
3) Long term progress. The Human would start with a feat, but be one tier behind with Wisdom (unless the starting feat added Wisdom, but I was looking at Mobility or Magic Initiate over Observant). So less AC until level 19.

Oh, my god. That definitely pushed me over on deciding whether to be a variant human or wood elf. You explained how the race would affect me should I not pick a feat to keep up my wisdom as well as summarizing the racial traits and how well it would benefit the monk. Lastly, and the most important, is how it would affect the long term.

[DeKnight]

You can just add +1 to Dex and +1 to Wis. Unless you're sure you're campaign is going to level 14 (rare to actually happen), then I recommend starting with Resiliency (Wis). That way you can start with 16/16/16 Dex/Con/Wis as well as proficiency in Wisdom saves, which is crucial.

The current campaign is going up to lvl5. It's one that was offered by WotC. Hoard of the Dragon Keep if I remember correctly.

[Gnomes2169]

The current campaign is going up to lvl5. It's one that was offered by WotC. Hoard of the Dragon Keep if I remember correctly.

Actually, Hoard of the Dragon Queen goes up to level 7.

[DeKnight]

Actually, Hoard of the Dragon Queen goes up to level 7.

Oh, my DM said that it went up to lvl7

[RulesJD]

Then definitely take Resiliency (Wisdom) if you're going variant human. You'll want proficiency in Wisdom saves and it rounds out 15 Wis -> 16 Wis which grants you all sorts of fun things. That way you can also add your +1/+1 somewhere else, like Dex and Con.

[Mandragola]

Resilient wisdom is ok. Standard array is a shame though honestly. At least you can have two 16s.

Honestly I think wood elf is the clear choice in this situation. The feats actually aren't amazing for monks, compared with the stuff you get for being an elf.

I do like way of shadow more than open hand, but that's your call. Shadow monks are just so sneaky it's amazing. Open hand relies on burning ki for flurry of blows but personally I prefer keeping it for stunning fist or to dodge, so the open hand abilities don't get used so much. Your party will love you for casting pass without trace as a shadow monk.

[Nod_Hero]

You can just add +1 to Dex and +1 to Wis. Unless you're sure you're campaign is going to level 14 (rare to actually happen), then I recommend starting with Resiliency (Wis). That way you can start with 16/16/16 Dex/Con/Wis as well as proficiency in Wisdom saves, which is crucial.

Excellent points but it was a discussion based on standard array not point buy, so that's where my topics were centered.

[ad_hoc]

Resilient wisdom is ok. Standard array is a shame though honestly. At least you can have two 16s.

Honestly I think wood elf is the clear choice in this situation. The feats actually aren't amazing for monks, compared with the stuff you get for being an elf.

I do like way of shadow more than open hand, but that's your call. Shadow monks are just so sneaky it's amazing. Open hand relies on burning ki for flurry of blows but personally I prefer keeping it for stunning fist or to dodge, so the open hand abilities don't get used so much. Your party will love you for casting pass without trace as a shadow monk.

If the character is retiring at level 7 then Open Hand might be better.

You don't get much time with your teleport and your spells, while awesome, do eat up a lot of your Ki in the low levels.

The level 6 Open Hand ability is not that great but it doesn't really matter if you are retiring after level 7 anyway.

I personally prefer Shadow but I would want to at least play to level 10 to get the most out of it.

[Gnomes2169]

If the character is retiring at level 7 then Open Hand might be better.

You don't get much time with your teleport and your spells, while awesome, do eat up a lot of your Ki in the low levels.

The level 6 Open Hand ability is not that great but it doesn't really matter if you are retiring after level 7 anyway.

I personally prefer Shadow but I would want to at least play to level 10 to get the most out of it.

If they start playing the Rise of Tiamat path afterwords, though, then they can get all the way to level 15. They don't necessarily have to retire their characters at level 7.

[ad_hoc]

If they start playing the Rise of Tiamat path afterwords, though, then they can get all the way to level 15. They don't necessarily have to retire their characters at level 7.

Which is why I am specifically addressing the situation where they will be retiring their characters at level 7.

There are a lot of things they could do in the game.

I am picking one of the things they could do to discuss. I am not claiming that they couldn't do that. They can also play things after Rise of Tiamat too. They could play to level 30 if they wanted to. The OP said they are going to level 7 so that seems like a valid thing to address to me.

[DeKnight]

If the character is retiring at level 7 then Open Hand might be better.

Would you mind explaining why Open Hand would fall off at later levels?

[RulesJD]

Would you mind explaining why Open Hand would fall off at later levels?

Mostly because it's level 6 and level 11 abilities are basically useless while Shadow Monk's are amazing (bonus action free teleport + free invisibility = almost guaranteed surprise rounds). Open Hand's level 17 ability is one of the best in the game but you almost never make it that far in game play so it's pointless.

Plus the Open Hand's ability require Ki to even activate while Shadow Monk's do not. Ki is better spent elsewhere (Stunning Strike for days).

[HoarsHalberd]

Would you mind explaining why Open Hand would fall off at later levels?

It's less a case of Open hand falling off, more a case of shadow only really picking up after level 6.

[Mandragola]

It's less a case of Open hand falling off, more a case of shadow only really picking up after level 6.

I don't agree that it does though. The shadow monk's spells at level 3 are excellent, but munch ki. Open hand's tricks are cool, but munch ki. It's pretty even at level 3. In either case you mostly want to save ki for stunning strike, once you can do that.

[HoarsHalberd]

I don't agree that it does though. The shadow monk's spells at level 3 are excellent, but munch ki. Open hand's tricks are cool, but munch ki. It's pretty even at level 3. In either case you mostly want to save ki for stunning strike, once you can do that.

Open hand's tricks are free on the turn you use flurry of blows. Which will be the main use of your ki up until level 5 anyway, and will still be used after on monsters that seem reasonably likely to have a high con, or that you want to kill ASAP alongside stunning strike. Any time you use flurry of blows you can tack on a prone attempt or a knockback, or make them unable to react to any successful hit for free.

[RulesJD]

I don't agree that it does though. The shadow monk's spells at level 3 are excellent, but munch ki. Open hand's tricks are cool, but munch ki. It's pretty even at level 3. In either case you mostly want to save ki for stunning strike, once you can do that.

That's why Shadow monk only gets better at level 6 onwards. The at-will teleport (no Ki costs) and at-will invisibility (no Ki costs) mean that a Shadow monk gets both incredibly useful class features before Open Hand monks while also having the least Ki intensive build.

[DeKnight]

So with all this in mind, would it better to go MC with Shadow monks? Like mixing in rogues for the sneak attack damage and whatnot? Or get into warlocks to get Darkness at lvl2 plus Devil's Sight at lvl3?



That's why Shadow monk only gets better at level 6 onwards. The at-will teleport (no Ki costs) and at-will invisibility (no Ki costs) mean that a Shadow monk gets both incredibly useful class features before Open Hand monks while also having the least Ki intensive build.

And would you mind explaining how that goes? To me, I see Shadow monks with a more utility-based kind of kit with Shadow Teleport, being a ninja and all whereas Open-Hand seems to be a bruiser; front line taking hits and dishing it back out.

[Yagyujubei]

if you want to go Human as your race, then I would suggest taking +1 in DEX and WIS, and then taking Observant as your free feat. this will give you the extra +1 WIS you need to bump it to 16, and the feat is incredibly good if you make sure before hand your DM will actually make use of passive perception, if NOT, then ask if you can modify the feat to give you advantage on perception checks that require sight.

aside from that, Mobile and Alert are the most universally useful feats for monks imho, and mageslayer is potentially amazing in the hands of a monk as well due to their high speed and ability to get to the back lines. aside from that i would spend all your ASI's actually bumping your stats up. monk is one of the most MAD classes, so getting high stats is tough.

[RulesJD]

So with all this in mind, would it better to go MC with Shadow monks? Like mixing in rogues for the sneak attack damage and whatnot? Or get into warlocks to get Darkness at lvl2 plus Devil's Sight at lvl3?




And would you mind explaining how that goes? To me, I see Shadow monks with a more utility-based kind of kit with Shadow Teleport, being a ninja and all whereas Open-Hand seems to be a bruiser; front line taking hits and dishing it back out.

Multiclass 2 levels of Warlock for Devil's Sight. Spend 2 Ki to cast Darkness either on a point or on yourself. Free advantage and disadvantage for enemies without needing to Dodge.

Either way, Bonus Action teleport -> 60ft after stealth moving up. Almost guaranteed surprise round.

Can teleport out of a Grapple/Restrained condition for free. It's a bonus action so you can still attack. It allows you an unparalleled amount of combat mobility + the free generation of Advantage if you really need to hit for Stunning Strike by teleporting around an enemy if they are in Dim light or darkness.

Level 11 = literally guaranteed surprise round due to combo with Teleport. Or just having insanely high stealth as a Monk so you are walking around invisible between each combat. Also = at-will Disengage without Ki due to enemy being unable to see you.

[Yagyujubei]

Multiclass 2 levels of Warlock for Devil's Sight. Spend 2 Ki to cast Darkness either on a point or on yourself. Free advantage and disadvantage for enemies without needing to Dodge.

Either way, Bonus Action teleport -> 60ft after stealth moving up. Almost guaranteed surprise round.

Can teleport out of a Grapple/Restrained condition for free. It's a bonus action so you can still attack. It allows you an unparalleled amount of combat mobility + the free generation of Advantage if you really need to hit for Stunning Strike by teleporting around an enemy if they are in Dim light or darkness.

Level 11 = literally guaranteed surprise round due to combo with Teleport. Or just having insanely high stealth as a Monk so you are walking around invisible between each combat. Also = at-will Disengage without Ki due to enemy being unable to see you.

the only problem with this build (and i know because im playing it currently) is that you have so many things competing for your bonus action. do you cast hex or transfer it from a dead enemy? do you shadow step? do you flurry? i find that it's very rare that I get more than one or two turns in a battle where I get to flurry an enemy with hex up on them (which is totally amazing) so it makes me sad. shadow step is INCREDIBLE for out of battle interactions though since it's unlimited and there's no "actions/bonus actions" per se when initiative hasn't been rolled.

EDIT: oh and another little gripe with the build. the darkness/devils sight trick is also incredible but just be ready to not ever use it because every time you do the rest of your party cries like a bunch of babies that they can't see.

[RulesJD]

Bonus Action management is without a doubt a huge impediment for any Monk build, but doubly so for Warlock or Rogue multiclass.

The real downside of Warlock/Monk is just how MAD it is. With 27 point buy you can get a decent setup, but you'll likely be at only +1 Con.

[DeKnight]

After a lot of reading through the PHB and being informed that the adventure would go up to lvl15, this including the Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of the Tiamat, I was thinking of going with Shadow Monk since I'm not going to go the full distance to lvl20.

Here is my plan:

Variant Human with feat with Observant.

I actually rolled my stats rather than going for the standard array. (His offer and I rolled pretty well =])

I have the attribute score of 11,13,14,15,16,17.

I was thinking of allocating it as such, including racial bonus plus feat:

STR: 14 (+1 variant human)
DEX: 20 (+3 from variant human)
CON: 16 (+1 variant human)
INT: 12 (+1 variant human)
WIS: 18 (+1 variant human +1 from Observant
CHA: 15 (+1 variant human)

I will pick up class levels in such order for Hoard of the Dragon Queen:

lv1: 1monk
lv2: 1monk/1warlock
lv3: 1monk/2warock
lv4: 2monk/2warlock
lv5: 3monk/2warlock
lv6: 3monk/2warlock/1fighter
lv7: 3monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/2fighter-(eventual battlemaster)


I will pick up class levels in such order for The Rise of Tiamat:

lv8: 4monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/2fighter-(eventual battlemaster)
lv9: 5monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/2fighter-(eventual battlemaster)
lv10: 6monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/2fighter-(eventual battlemaster)
lv11: 6monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/3fighter-battlemaster
lv12: 6monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/3fighter-battlemaster/1rogue
lv13: 6monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/3fighter-battlemaster/2rogue
lv14: 6monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/4fighter-battlemaster/2rogue
lv15: 6monk-shadow/2warlock-fiend/5fighter-battlemaster/2rogue

Too much planning? Feedback would be great

[Gnomes2169]

Well, to start with... Variant human does not give you +1 to every single attribute. It gives you +1 to two different attributes (with observant and other feats granting you another +1 as well). So with your current stat loadout, your humany monk should look like:

Str: 13
Dex: 18 (17+1 variant human)
Con: 15
Int: 11
Wis: 18 (16+1 variant human+1 feat)
Cha: 14

Second: ... What are you looking to get out of warlock 2? I wouldn't recommend delaying any of your monk levels multiclassing until at least level 5 (both so you can get more ki and extra attack on time), and I don't see much use in the 2-level dip on a monk. Fighter 2 I can understand because action surge and second wind are both wonderful, but warlock 2... Doesn't get you all too much. :/

I also don't understand why you would go to fighter 5 after getting extra attack from a different class. Extra attack from multiple sources does not stack, so that would be a dead level for you features-wise. Going to fighter 4 for the ASI since you are going to fighter 3 for the superiority dice would be a good strategy, but beyond thatwouldn't be recommended, given the majority of your levels are going to be in monk.

So if I was multi-classing this character, here's what I would do:

Hoard of the dragon queen
Monk 1
Monk 2
Monk 3
Monk 4 (ASI to dex)
Monk 5
Monk 5/ fighter 1 (taking GWF fighting style and two-handing a quarterstaff)
Monk 5/ fighter 2

Rise of Tiamat
Monk 5/ fighter 3
Monk 5/ fighter 4 (ASI to wis)
Monk 6/ fighter 4
Monk 7/ fighter 4
Monk 8/ fighter 4 (ASI spent on a feat. Likely mobility or alert. Maybe durable, to bump con to 16 and give you better short rest healing?)
Monk 9/ fighter 4
Monk 10/ fighter 4
Monk 11/ fighter 4

In the end this multiclass should give you enough ki to work with without having fear of running out part-way through the day, gets you 3 ASI's (which is what you would have ended up with as a pure monk anyway), gets you your superiority dice and favorite 4 maneuvers, and gets you action surge on top of your monk 11 abilities. I would not go for any levels of warlock, as your actions and bonus actions will already be rather spoken for, your ki pool would suffer for the multiclass and you would lose out on the later-level monk abilities/ subclass abilities.

Oh... And cut the rogue entirely. Rogue 2 gets you nothing beyond 1d6 sneak attack and expertise, while everything else is very much delayed for it.

[DeKnight]

Well, to start with... Variant human does not give you +1 to every single attribute. It gives you +1 to two different attributes (with observant and other feats granting you another +1 as well). So with your current stat loadout, your humany monk should look like:

Str: 13
Dex: 18 (17+1 variant human)
Con: 15
Int: 11
Wis: 18 (16+1 variant human+1 feat)
Cha: 14


Okay, so I guess I looked at that wrong.



Second: ... What are you looking to get out of warlock 2?
Well, I was thinking of picking up Devil's Sight so that I can see through magical darkness as a shadow monk.

[Mandragola]

I wouldn't bother with darkness and devil's sight as a shadow monk. It's a bit of a waste because:
- it takes a turn to cast darkness
- it annoys everyone else in the group, who now can't see anything.
- it requires concentration
- you can shadow step for advantage
- it takes two full levels!!

Shadow monks can do best by either staying as shadow monks or switching to rogue after level 6.

Wood elves are way better than humans with observant, not least because of dark vision. Not a lot of point being a super ninja if you have to carry a torch.

[DeKnight]

I wouldn't bother with darkness and devil's sight as a shadow monk. It's a bit of a waste because:
- it takes a turn to cast darkness
- it annoys everyone else in the group, who now can't see anything.
- it requires concentration
- you can shadow step for advantage
- it takes two full levels!!

Shadow monks can do best by either staying as shadow monks or switching to rogue after level 6.

Wood elves are way better than humans with observant, not least because of dark vision. Not a lot of point being a super ninja if you have to carry a torch.

Well, that's why there's two warlock levels, to get Devil's Sight to help with the lack of Darkvision, plus being able to see up to 120ft as opposed to the 60ft of Darkvision and I do understand your point of Darkness being something encumbering to the party.

And do you agree with Gnomes2169 on getting Great Weapon Fighting with a quarterstaff?

[Mandragola]

Well, that's why there's two warlock levels, to get Devil's Sight to help with the lack of Darkvision, plus being able to see up to 120ft as opposed to the 60ft of Darkvision and I do understand your point of Darkness being something encumbering to the party.

And do you agree with Gnomes2169 on getting Great Weapon Fighting with a quarterstaff?

I still think you should just be a wood elf. You're throwing away two whole levels, plus stats to bump your otherwise irrelevant charisma, just to replace a feature the elf comes with as standard.

I'm far from sold on the idea of fighter levels so you sometimes get to reroll your D8 with your quarterstaff too. It's not a big increase in damage at all. You'd improve your damage done at least as much if you just carried on levelling as a monk, making your damage dice bigger. Clearly there's cool stuff you get from those fighter levels, like action surge and superiority dice, but actually you get cool stuff as you level as a monk as well.

I tend to think the best options for MCing as a monk involve getting to level 6 of shadow, then getting 3 rogue levels for assassinate. There's something to be said for going to rogue 5 for the ASI and uncanny dodge too, and maybe grabbing the next ASI at rogue 6 too.

Monks actually have quite a lot of MCing options I think. Fighter is ok, rogue is good, ranger could be interesting, cleric and druid are outside possibilities. Sticking as single-class monk also makes a lot of sense though, and does keep paying out with cool new tricks like evasion and proficiency in all saves. What I really like about 5th edition is that you'v actually got a ton of options but they don't tend to make your character better, just more interesting.

[Yagyujubei]

Well, that's why there's two warlock levels, to get Devil's Sight to help with the lack of Darkvision, plus being able to see up to 120ft as opposed to the 60ft of Darkvision and I do understand your point of Darkness being something encumbering to the party.

And do you agree with Gnomes2169 on getting Great Weapon Fighting with a quarterstaff?

I play warlock2/monk8 in one of my games and it's great. Hex works amazingly with monk even though as i mentioned before you'll end up frustrated you only have 1 bonus action, still though it's like having flurry for every attack without spending Ki.

and darkness/devils sight is still really good especially since gaining advantage through shadow step also locks up your bonus action taking away your chance to flurry, just remind your party that with wonky advantage rules in 5E dropping darkness on yourself TECHNICALLY doesnt affect them at all, because while they have disadvantage for attacking a target they cant see, they get advantage for attacking a target that cant see them which cancels out to normal rolls.

as for Qstaff/great weapon fighting...since you're gonna hit 20 dex I would go for it. You'll likely be ok with the -5 to hit (esp if you have bless) and it would put out some very nice damage:

1st and 2nd attack Qstaff two handed with hex and GWF for 2d8+2d6+30
flurry of blows with hex for 4d6+10

that's an average of 70 damage for 1 ki. not earth shattering, but not bad either

EDIT @ mandragora: why is he spending points in CHA? he already has enough to MC and otherwise you don't need it for anything you would be taking from warlock.

just two levels in warlock imparts the following benefits:
-Hex, Hex, Hex: for a class that can get 4 attacks at level 5 this is incredible
-another good spell such as armor of agathys
-devils sight: for the combo
-level 1 patron feature: AoE fear or free thp on kills
-another invocation: silent image, detect magic, disguise self, or false life at will

imho totally worth.
-

[Gnomes2169]

I would like to clarify that by great weapon fighting, I specifically meant the fighting style. As the multiclass the OP wanted had an emphasis on fighter/ monk, I took a look at each of the fighting styles and found that only gwf style is able to be used effectively with the monk. Twf is pointless, defense doesn't work because a monk is unarmored, duelist is disqualified by the monk's martial arts/ flurry abilities, and protection doesn't work because a monk can't use a shield and benefit from their unarmored defense ability. Only reason I brought it up.

[RulesJD]

as for Qstaff/great weapon fighting...since you're gonna hit 20 dex I would go for it. You'll likely be ok with the -5 to hit (esp if you have bless) and it would put out some very nice damage:

1st and 2nd attack Qstaff two handed with hex and GWF for 2d8+2d6+30

-

You're thinking the feat called Great Weapon Mastery. Unfortunately, the -5/+10 aspect of that feat does not work with a Quarterstaff. It specifically says that it needs to be a "heavy" weapon, which a Quarterstaff is not. The first part of it does work, but is kind of pointless on a Monk because you always have a bonus attack anyways.

The GWF style DOES work with a Monk holding a Quarter staff in two hands. However, it will only add approximate .75 damage overall due to re-rolling 1s and 2s. A better option is Dueling, which DOES work with Quarterstaffs held in 1 hand (you are not holding anything in your other hand). You damage dice will decrease to a 1d6 (loss of an average 1 damage) but you can then add +2 to each hit, thus increasing your average damage by +1 (better than GWFs +.75). Once you hit level 11, your 1d6 becomes 1d8 anyways, so you'll average 2.5 more damage between your two hits.

But honestly, those all pale in comparison to the damage increase you get from level dipping Ranger (Colossus Slayer + Hunter's Mark) or Warlock (Hex) largely because those all still work with your bonus unarmed strikes so it adds +3.5 damage to EACH hit.

[PotatoGolem]

Darkness + Devil's Sight is one of those things that's powerful in theory, but that you shouldn't do in games. What gets lost in optimization threads is that D&D is, at the core, a team game. It's not about finding the most efficient way to win every fight, it's about having fun with your friends. I've had this talk with my players (a couple of whom love warlocks and warlock dips): if the rest of the group can't play (or is always at super-disadvantage), they're not having fun. It's not "crying like babies," it's that people play the game to have fun and feel like their character is awesome, not that 1 PC is the main character and everyone else is the backup band. Especially since it seems like your group is newer players- I've DM'ed for and played with a lot of new players, and a lot of them will drop out pretty quickly if they're not having fun.

Tl;dr- don't go for the darkness/devil's sight combo because it makes the game un-fun for everyone else

[Demonic Spoon]

Darkness + Devil's Sight is one of those things that's powerful in theory, but that you shouldn't do in games. What gets lost in optimization threads is that D&D is, at the core, a team game. It's not about finding the most efficient way to win every fight, it's about having fun with your friends. I've had this talk with my players (a couple of whom love warlocks and warlock dips): if the rest of the group can't play (or is always at super-disadvantage), they're not having fun. It's not "crying like babies," it's that people play the game to have fun and feel like their character is awesome, not that 1 PC is the main character and everyone else is the backup band. Especially since it seems like your group is newer players- I've DM'ed for and played with a lot of new players, and a lot of them will drop out pretty quickly if they're not having fun.

Tl;dr- don't go for the darkness/devil's sight combo because it makes the game un-fun for everyone else

It doesn't put anyone else at disadvantage, it neutralizes their advantage/disadvantage. They get disadvantage for not being able to see, but advantage since their opponent can't see them.

[ad_hoc]

It doesn't put anyone else at disadvantage, it neutralizes their advantage/disadvantage. They get disadvantage for not being able to see, but advantage since their opponent can't see them.

Is it fun if your character can't see anything?

[HoarsHalberd]

I still think you should just be a wood elf. You're throwing away two whole levels, plus stats to bump your otherwise irrelevant charisma, just to replace a feature the elf comes with as standard.
No you aren't. Please don't attack combos you haven't fully grasped. Magical darkness like the effect brought by the darkness spell monks have access to can't be seen through by normal darkvision. This means that against any enemy without blindsight or truesight, the darkness/devil sight combo gives the monk permanent advantage and the enemy permanent disadvantage. This is a LOT better for rogues though and normally is very, very unpopular amongst team-mates because they can't see through the darkness either.


I tend to think the best options for MCing as a monk involve getting to level 6 of shadow, then getting 3 rogue levels for assassinate. There's something to be said for going to rogue 5 for the ASI and uncanny dodge too, and maybe grabbing the next ASI at rogue 6 too.


Rogues don't get an ASI at 6. They get a bump to expertise. It always helps to double check when you're giving build advice.

[Mandragola]

No you aren't. Please don't attack combos you haven't fully grasped. Magical darkness like the effect brought by the darkness spell monks have access to can't be seen through by normal darkvision. This means that against any enemy without blindsight or truesight, the darkness/devil sight combo gives the monk permanent advantage and the enemy permanent disadvantage. This is a LOT better for rogues though and normally is very, very unpopular amongst team-mates because they can't see through the darkness either.



Rogues don't get an ASI at 6. They get a bump to expertise. It always helps to double check when you're giving build advice.
Right on the ASI. Was afb at the time. They get one at 10. So probably no reason to go beyond 5 levels in rogue, at most.

I do fully understand the darkness/devil's sight combo. Everyone does. It's used in half the builds on this forum and hardly rocket science. But I don't think it's worthwhile for a monk because:

- You use a whole turn setting it up - so you need to do a bunch of extra damage to make up for what you lost on turn 1.
- It requires concentration, which can fail.
- It annoys everyone else.
- It reduces your damage dice and delays other features because you're a warlock some of the time.
- Costs your soul too, which is kind of a thing.

I'm not saying it's never useful, I'm saying it's not needed, and of questionable benefit.

To be fair, the character here has great stats, so he can easily afford to put a 13 in charisma. So it's less of a sacrifice to him than for someone buying stats or assigning a standard array. It's just two levels that don't give Ki or progress him towards higher-level monk skills.

[DeKnight]

- You use a whole turn setting it up - so you need to do a bunch of extra damage to make up for what you lost on turn 1.
- It requires concentration, which can fail.
- It annoys everyone else.
- It reduces your damage dice and delays other features because you're a warlock some of the time.
- Costs your soul too, which is kind of a thing.


-It does but I can cast Darkness up to 120ft away and Shadow Step requires me to be at max range of 60ft to teleport. Within the prep turn, I can drop Darkness+Hex and wait till my next turn to attack. And this is just with my DM, he always places us about 60-90ft out so we know what's going on but not really close enough to have a major impact so with that setup, I do have that extra turn as everyone sets up and get closer plus I can release my Darkness at will since it is considered a free action so should my group want me to drop the Darkness on their turn, I can.
-Not much of a problem on the concentration failure since my group is mostly melee so that when it fails, they'll already be next to me, providing assistance.
-I played a warlock before and it had Darkness (go figure.) We would discuss the use of Darkness and where to place it and it worked out marvelously each time. They were actually glad that I picked up Darkness to provide cover when needed. Like for one instance, we had to blind a boss and kill of its minions first and another to block out a tunnel while I guided everyone to safety with rope.
-I would say that the Hex damage gently makes up for the delay in damage dice. The Hex also helps out the rest of the party when they want to cast spells against certain saves like Poison Spray from a druid. Hex against Con and the druid almost always lands the hit. Also, Flurry of Blows+Hex is pretty neat, whether in theory or in play.
-Not necessarily losing my soul. With the Pact of the Old Ones, you just happen to discover an ancient entity whose power you barely harnessed and they aren't even aware of it since you wouldn't even register on their radar.

Aside from that, the Invocations are pretty nice as well. Like Devil's Sight to not only see through magical darkness but also cover my lack of Darkvision. There is also Mask of Many Faces just to disguise myself as something else, possibly making it easier for my group to get through places or Fiendish Vigor for THP.

EDIT: I do understand where you're coming from. These were just counterpoints from my experience with my group as well as with my warlock.

[ad_hoc]

-Not much of a problem on the concentration failure since my group is mostly melee so that when it fails, they'll already be next to me, providing assistance.
-I played a warlock before and it had Darkness (go figure.) We would discuss the use of Darkness and where to place it and it worked out marvelously each time. They were actually glad that I picked up Darkness to provide cover when needed. Like for one instance, we had to blind a boss and kill of its minions first and another to block out a tunnel while I guided everyone to safety with rope.
-I would say that the Hex damage gently makes up for the delay in damage dice. The Hex also helps out the rest of the party when they want to cast spells against certain saves like Poison Spray from a druid. Hex against Con and the druid almost always lands the hit. Also, Flurry of Blows+Hex is pretty neat, whether in theory or in play.
-Not necessarily losing my soul. With the Pact of the Old Ones, you just happen to discover an ancient entity whose power you barely harnessed and they aren't even aware of it since you wouldn't even register on their radar.


Hex gives disadvantage on checks not saves.

Darkness seems to be one of those spells that will give different results depending on DM ruling/playstyle/encounter building. Being able to move around with it or cover it as needed can be very strong though.

[DeKnight]

Hex gives disadvantage on checks not saves.

My bad. My DM treats it as saves so it's been pretty nice :p
Am I going to correct him on that? Maybe...

[Mandragola]

Glad the warlock/monk thing is working for you. Couple of things though:

Darkness is not a free action. It's an action. That's why I say it takes a turn to cast.

5th ed is hardly restrictive in its rules, so play by them :) hex does not affect saves and you really should explain that to the DM.

I find that combat usual comes as more of a surprise than the set ups described above. Monsters tend to attack, or you open a door and roll for initiative. So that's just a reminder that different things work better at different tables.

[Yagyujubei]

everyone keeps talking about darkness/hex eating up turns, but WotS monk is one of the sneakiest builds there is and monks can achieve godlike perception. I never have trouble sneaking up (esp if i spend the Ki on pass without trace), dropping a globe of darkness on myself (or on a rock that I keep with me which I can cover/uncover at will), and Hexing a target as my surprise round.

after that you just run in and wail on them, use flurry with your bonus if you want damage, or shadow step if you need extra distance.

if your party is upset about having to fight in darkness, then run in attack and use shadow step to get out of the melee so everyone else can see, consider jumping over to your ranged characters to offer them cover. on their turn they can just take a few steps out to attack then walk back in.

as for hex, I'd say the best use of it's debuff is to nerf an enemies strength, that way if you have a barb or fighter (or yourself if you're a grapple monk) you can pretty much ensure they win any grapple contest, it's also not horrible to nerf an enemy's INT check if you have a mage who loves illusion magic.

also, I don't understand the loss of your soul thing....why are you losing your soul?

[ad_hoc]

everyone keeps talking about darkness/hex eating up turns, but WotS monk is one of the sneakiest builds there is and monks can achieve godlike perception. I never have trouble sneaking up (esp if i spend the Ki on pass without trace), dropping a globe of darkness on myself (or on a rock that I keep with me which I can cover/uncover at will), and Hexing a target as my surprise round.

You are still using up your turn to do it.

You now have one less turn to attack the enemy or do something else.

It may be worth it in the end, but it still uses up a turn and makes for less stunning strikes.

It's also strange to me that you are using pass without trace and darkness while taking a dip into warlock.

At level 6 you can do that for only 1 fight and you are completely out of Ki until you short rest.

A straight monk at level 6 can teleport, stunning strike, and they have more Ki. That seems like the better deal to me.

[Yagyujubei]

You are still using up your turn to do it.

You now have one less turn to attack the enemy or do something else.

It may be worth it in the end, but it still uses up a turn and makes for less stunning strikes.

It's also strange to me that you are using pass without trace and darkness while taking a dip into warlock.

At level 6 you can do that for only 1 fight and you are completely out of Ki until you short rest.

A straight monk at level 6 can teleport, stunning strike, and they have more Ki. That seems like the better deal to me.

well surprise round you only get movement OR an action, so I'm not really missing out on anything, because I would spend my entire surprise round moving to get into position in the first place. this way I'm setting up for combat completely before initiative has been rolled, therefor (in my opinion) i haven't sacrificed a turn/action/what have you.

and normally I don't use pass without trace and darkness together..we have another party member that can cast PWT, but I was just saying it was an option if the situation called for it.

at the end of the day I don't think the build is necessarily "better" at that level (although on a max level toon I would say monk18/warlock2 is much better than monk 20), but it's at least "as good", and plays in a very specific way that feels totally badass to me.

dipping 3 into warlock might be worth while too, since you would get access to darkness without using Ki, and pact of the chain is potentially very flavorful AND powerful if your DM accepts that familiar resistances are shared with the warlock, and also makes for the best scout in the game imho.

[ad_hoc]

well surprise round you only get movement OR an action, so I'm not really missing out on anything, because I would spend my entire surprise round moving to get into position in the first place. this way I'm setting up for combat completely before initiative has been rolled, therefor (in my opinion) i haven't sacrificed a turn/action/what have you.

There are no surprise rounds in 5e.

If a creature is surprised it cannot take reactions until its first turn and that first turn consists solely of ending its surprise.

Everyone who is not surprised takes a full and regular turn's worth of actions and movement.

[Yagyujubei]

There are no surprise rounds in 5e.

If a creature is surprised it cannot take reactions until its first turn and that first turn consists solely of ending its surprise.

Everyone who is not surprised takes a full and regular turn's worth of actions and movement.

eh, well my group plays with one, but either way you play it ends with the same effect. the casting of darkness and hex will initiate the combat and happen even before initiative is rolled so you arent missing out on a turn

[Mandragola]

The rules on surprise rounds are pretty straightforward. Surprised people don't get a turn but everyone else does. Then combat kicks off as usual.

A warlock/monk can use his surprise round to cast darkness. He can't also cast hex because you are not allowed to cast a spell that uses an action and a spell that uses a bonus action in the same turn, unless one of them is a cantrip.

During a surprise round a single-class monk can hurt stuff and he can stun people. If he's multiclassed as an assassin then he can do up to four auto-crits, with sneak damage on one.

Again, I'm not saying that the warlock version is terrible - just that I don't think it's necessarily better in all situations. Hex is certainly pretty useful.

My group plays with point buy so raising charisma to 13 would be a real sacrifice, making warlock/monk unattractive as a build. If you've rolled, and rolled well, then it becomes an option. A half-elf would probably be best for this.

I still think that wood elves are the best choice for monks by quite some distance. There are no stand-out feats that a human would take really. Stout halflings actually make a surprisingly good option too. They can start with 17 dex and 15 wisdom, have 14 con, then put a point into dex and wis at level 4. They'd have the same stats as a wood elf at that point but get the halfling racial bonuses, which are good. A tiny guy beating up dragons with his fists would be awesome.

[Yagyujubei]

you all seem to be misunderstanding...darkness is cast before combat even begins, darkness is a prebuff. you see the enemy 50ft, 100ft, what have you, away and then you cast darkness on yourself and go in to attack.

I'd also argue that you could get the hex in before combat technically starts, but it seems like you guys disagree so I'll drop that point. even then though, you could cast hex as your bonus and get an attack off during your surprise round.

as one of the stealthier builds in the game this is in no way difficult to accomplish.

[Mandragola]

I'm pretty sure hexing someone would start combat. You'd notice that someone had hexed you, not least because the person doing it supposedly points at you and says a bunch of magic words. You could absolutely cast it during a surprise round - though then you've used your bonus action to hex them and can't do bonus unarmed strikes.

With darkness it's less clear. If you're outside then people will notice you cast it, because a 30' high dome of blackness appears. Casting it on a coin which you keep in your pocket is cool. You can then use your object interaction to pull it out during the surprise round. Indoors you could cast it before opening a door, then the room would be flooded with darkness. So yes there are ways you could work things with darkness.

Casting two spells, one of which is a bonus action, is explicitly ruled out on page 202 of the phb - so you can't do darkness and hex in the same turn.

Of course, darkness and hex both require concentration, so there's no way to keep them both running at the same time anyway.