Unchained Fighter Barbarian

[Shadowscale]

With the new variant multiclass section of pathfinder unchained I was wondering if anybody wanted to take a crack at optimizing a two handed fighter archetype fighter with barbarian as a secondary class using the new variant system. Any help or ideas would be much appreciated.

[Psyren]

Be a Muscle Wizard Abjurer :smallbiggrin:

Two-Handed Fighter's main schtick is that it gives you even more mileage out of your Strength modifier. So combining it with class features that boost your Strength score, like rage or mutagen, is a good idea and lets you pile on the damage. From there, you can get utility by focusing on either trip or sunder; the former helps you control the battlefield while the latter gives you minor debuff and out-of-combat utility. (Break down a door so your allies have an alternate route, or smash through the giant's shield so your archer's can damage him etc.) With all the damage you'll be doing, going into the demolition business is a good idea. I personally recommend you focus on Sundering because it's by far the most fun, but you have plenty of feats to do both.

Let's start with what the combined class table would look like:

1 - (Feat) (Bonus Feat)
2 - (Bonus Feat) (Bravery 1) (Shattering Strike 1)
3 - (Feat) (Rage: Con+HD rounds/day) (Armor Training 1) (Overhand Chop)
4 - (Bonus Feat)
5 - (Feat) (Weapon Training 1 2H Only)
6 - (Bonus Feat) (Bravery 2) (Shattering Strike 2)
7 - (Feat) (Armor Training 2) (Backswing)
8 - (Bonus Feat)
9 - (Feat) (Weapon Training 2 2H Only)
10 - (Bonus Feat) (Bravery 3) (Shattering Strike 3)
11 - (Feat) (Rage Power) (Armor Training 3) (Piledriver)
12 - (Bonus Feat)
13 - (Feat) (Weapon Training 3 2H Only)
14 - (Bonus Feat) (Bravery 4) (Shattering Strike 4)
15 - (Feat) (DR 3/-) (Armor Training 4) (Greater Power Attack)
16 - (Bonus Feat)
17 - (Feat) (Weapon Training 4 2H Only)
18 - (Bonus Feat) (Bravery 5) (Shattering Strike 5)
19 - (Feat) Greater Rage (Armor Mastery) (Devastating Blow)
20 - (Bonus Feat) (Weapon Mastery)

Legend: (Replaced by VMC Barbarian) (Replaced by THF Archetype)

This leaves you with 16 feats total over your career, because VMC eats 5 of them and Fighter normally gets 21 (not counting race.)

Ordinarily I would say "since you have rage powers and you're good at sundering, go for Spell Sunder asap." But VMC Barb makes that tricky - you need 3 rage powers for that (Superstition, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder) and since you only get one from VMC, you will need feats for the other two - and Extra Rage Power is not a combat feat, so you won't be able to get Spell Sunder until 17 - far too late for most campaigns.

But wait! There is a fun trick you can pull off to get Spell Sunder much earlier (13.) The retraining (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining) rules explicitly allow you to select feats you didn't qualify for at the time, so long as your current character qualifies. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9h) Meaning that as soon as you hit 11 and gain the "rage power" VMC class feature, you can retrain any of your lower-level feats to "Extra Rage Power" even though the lower-lever version of your character could not have learned any rage powers prior to 11. Combine that with the fact that Superstition and Witch Hunter have no level requirement (thus the 1/2 level prohibition in VCM Rage Power doesn't apply) and you can grab both of those rage powers with two of your feats. Spell Sunder unfortunately does have a barbarian level requirement (6) so you will need to be at least a Fighter 12 before you can pick it up - hence needing your level 13 feat to get it via Extra Rage Power. Between +5 from Weapon Trainng, your boosted strength from rage/greater rage, the huge enhancement from furious and courageous etc., you should have a massive sunder check that will allow you to split most spell effects down the middle and literally chop people's buffs off.

From there the standard barbarian optimization advice applies. Get a Courageous Furious Weapon, get a Cord of Stubborn Resolve, get an adamantine two-hander with reach etc. And don't forget that unlike a real barbarian, you can wear plate. Use your combat feats to grab all the "make me better at sunder" combat and style feats, while your regular feats post-retraining

The only question now is - is this better than a regular barbarian spell sunderer?
Well, yes and no - the normal barbarian gets to sunder spells much earlier than you. It also gets bigger rage bonuses and longer raging. But you get weapon training, more mileage out of your Strength mod, and many more combat feats - letting you pick up interesting backup strats like styles and archery. Also, note that the VMC Barbarian can be lawful, and this is explicitly intended. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s81a?Unchained-Variant-Multiclassing#43)

Finally, since you're running Unchained anyway, do you plan on using the Stamina rules?

[Secret Wizard]

Honestly, if you are using Unchained Variant Multiclass, as a Fighter, it is SUBOPTIMAL not to take one.

Barbarian is a good choice but lack of rage rounds can hurt. If you have a CON of 16 or higher, Recovered Rage will outpace Extra Rage in terms of daily benefit. Fatigue might be an issue too, Country Born feat at level 1 can be useful to overcome that.

The one downside of the Barbarian VMC is Uncanny Dodge. Fighters usually have little in the way of DEX bonuses, so there's not much incentive to it. It's almost a lost level. The cool thing about it is being able to make attacks of opportunity at all times, so it's a mixed bag.

Other than that, Power Attack, Furious Focus, perhaps Raging Vitality (not sure how it works with Unchained Rage) and the usual suspects will do.

For Rage Power, either Superstitious (for better saves) or one of the stances are the best choices.

[Spore]

Be a Muscle Wizard Abjurer :smallbiggrin:


Can I get a link dear sir? Or is this the kind of joke like: "I summon my fist, in attack mode!"

[grarrrg]

you can get utility by focusing on either trip or sunder; the former helps you control the battlefield while the latter gives you minor debuff and out-of-combat utility.... I personally recommend you focus on Sundering because it's by far the most fun, but you have plenty of feats to do both.

And there's the fact that Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise and that pesky 13 INT.
Whereas Improved Sunder just wants Power Attack and 13 STR.
Which one of these is easier to achieve with this build? Yeah.


Can I get a link dear sir? Or is this the kind of joke like: "I summon my fist, in attack mode!"

Probably more of the joke variety.
http://oi36.tinypic.com/1553zuc.jpg

Although the line between "powerful spellcaster" and "big strong guy" can get kinda blurry with the right Archetype/multi/VMC/etc...

[Psyren]

Can I get a link dear sir? Or is this the kind of joke like: "I summon my fist, in attack mode!"

It's a joking reference to the comic grarrg linked, however, I was actually being serious - Barbarian gets a rage power called Spell Sunder that lets you dispel magic (both free-standing and enemy buffs) by sundering it. You can access this on a VMC Fighter/Babarian by level 13 using the tips I posted above.


And there's the fact that Improved Trip requires Combat Expertise and that pesky 13 INT.
Whereas Improved Sunder just wants Power Attack and 13 STR.
Which one of these is easier to achieve with this build? Yeah.

Well with Unchained's Stamina system you can skip the Int requirement on all of those feats that have it actually. So that's a neat fix :smallsmile:

"8 Int Tripper, here we come!"

[Shadowscale]

Gosh, using this especially with the new stamina system is essentially the best and strongest martial I can think of.

[Psyren]

Sample Build using Stamina:

Grelbar Glyphshatter - Dwarf Fighter 13, Two Handed Fighter (VMC Barbarian); 15 Point Buy

STR 16 | DEX 12 | CON 14 (16) | INT 12 | WIS 8 (10) | CHA 8 (6)

1) F: Power Attack, BF: Improved Sunder, FF: Combat Stamina
2) THF: Shattering Strike 1; {Bonus Combat Feat}
3) VMC: Rage, THF: Overhand Chop
4) {Bonus Combat Feat}
5) RT: Extra Rage Power (Superstition); THF: Weapon Training 1
6) THF: Shattering Strike 2; BF: Greater Sunder
7) VMC: Uncanny Dodge; THF: Backswing
8) BF: Disruptive
9) RT: Extra Rage Power (Witch Hunter); THF: Weapon Training 2
10) THF: Shattering Strike 3; BF: Spellbreaker
11) VMC: Rage Power (Reckless Abandon); THF: Piledriver
12) BF: Shatterspell
13) F: Extra Rage Power (Spell Sunder); THF: Weapon Training 3

Base Sunder bonus: BAB (13) + STR (4) + Imp Sunder (2) + Greater Sunder (2) + Weapon Trainng (3) + Shattering Strike (3) = +27 before items.

[Secret Wizard]

1. You never qualify for extra rage power. None of the VMC do for their granted features.

2. Read my post.

[Psyren]

1. You never qualify for extra rage power. None of the VMC do for their granted features.

2. Read my post.

1) Incorrect, they specifically tell you if you don't qualify for extra X (e.g. Witch VMC specifically does not get Extra Hex.) Barbarian VMC does not have this language, therefore you can take Extra Rage Power.

2) I did read your post. How Raging Vitality works with Unchained Rage isn't relevant for my build - VMC Barbarian has to use the old version of rage.