Why are divination spells so strong?

[sjeshin]

I have seen a lot of people on forums like this one saying that divination spells, particularly in the hands of wizards and their kin, are a devastating advantage. They make it sound like this gives them some kind of real foreknowledge. Can someone give me an example of the spells they are talking about?

[Urpriest]

Spells like Augury, Divination and Contact Other Plane arguably can give foreknowledge. But the rest of the time, it's more a matter of learning enough about a situation that you know how to deal with it: Scrying and using other remote viewing techniques to figure out what kind of enemies you're likely to deal with in particular places, Divination and Contact Other Plane to learn about the present, various Detect spells to get a handle on who and what you're fighting in the near-term.

[sjeshin]

Spells like Augury, Divination and Contact Other Plane arguably can give foreknowledge. But the rest of the time, it's more a matter of learning enough about a situation that you know how to deal with it: Scrying and using other remote viewing techniques to figure out what kind of enemies you're likely to deal with in particular places, Divination and Contact Other Plane to learn about the present, various Detect spells to get a handle on who and what you're fighting in the near-term.

But if a group of adventurers are attempting to attack a wizard without telling anyone about it but each other, does he really have any warning if he's only met them in passing?

Ok, so with a success on those spells you can literally just ask if you will be attacked, followed by who will attack me etc. Wow. Thanks for the pointers

[A Tad Insane]

But if a group of adventurers are attempting to attack a wizard without telling anyone about it but each other, does he really have any warning if he's only met them in passing?

There's a quote about epic level wizards, it says one of their traits is they're paranoid. If that wizard is going to survive, he'll probably be scrying everything that could be a threat to him. This means the wizard with divinations will know more about what's going to kill him than the one without.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you have even the vaguest idea about something, like a threat to you, a small detail about a possible enemy or some small bit of information about whatever, the right divinations with the right questions can tell you all about it, given time.
Sure there are protections, but even Mind Blank can be worked around. And that's assuming the enemy you're worried about even has access to it.

A properly paranoid spellcaster (and the only spellcasters that get to high level are the properly paranoid ones) will use a part of his daily spellslots on generalized divinations to find out if there's a threat to him if he has nothing more pressing to do with them.
If he gets a positive on that he'll spend more specialized divinations to find out what the threat is, where it comes from, how it's equipped, etc.

Knowledge is power, and properly used divinations with enough time to use them gives you all the knowledge you want, as long as you ask the right questions.

[ryu]

If you have even the vaguest idea about something, like a threat to you, a small detail about a possible enemy or some small bit of information about whatever, the right divinations with the right questions can tell you all about it, given time.
Sure there are protections, but even Mind Blank can be worked around. And that's assuming the enemy you're worried about even has access to it.

A properly paranoid spellcaster (and the only spellcasters that get to high level are the properly paranoid ones) will use a part of his daily spellslots on generalized divinations to find out if there's a threat to him if he has nothing more pressing to do with them.
If he gets a positive on that he'll spend more specialized divinations to find out what the threat is, where it comes from, how it's equipped, etc.

Knowledge is power, and properly used divinations with enough time to use them gives you all the knowledge you want, as long as you ask the right questions.

And considering spontaneous divination exists he doesn't even have to devote real daily resources to it. He can just use whatever didn't end up getting spent during the day.

[Telok]

The thing with divination is that a wizard (and most clerics) do better with preparation. You can have a generic spell load and walk into almost any dungeon and succeed most of the time, if you're smart about your spells and tactics. But it's better to know that you're facing an undead dungeon, or a fire and acid dungeon, or a drow dungeon. Then you prepare the best spells for that dungeon and are less likely to fail.

It becomes even more noticable if you have a party with a fighter, rogue, sorcerer, and favored soul. If they walk into a dungeon unprepared for undead then the first wraith or shadow may be a TPK. If they prep for undead and meet a couple of air elementals they can be really screwed. Just a single scroll of Divination and the willingness to use it can dictate the difference between TPK and cakewalk.

[molten_dragon]

I have seen a lot of people on forums like this one saying that divination spells, particularly in the hands of wizards and their kin, are a devastating advantage. They make it sound like this gives them some kind of real foreknowledge. Can someone give me an example of the spells they are talking about?

Knowledge is power. Knowing about something before it happens, even if that knowledge is vague, can give you a leg up on preparing for it, and wizards are far more dangerous when they have the ability to prepare for a specific situation or encounter.

However, like a lot of spells, divination spells are typically much more powerful theoretically speaking than they are practically speaking. A theoretical wizard can use the right divination spells to always know what's happening before it actually does. An actual character being played in a real game has a DM to contend with, who may not want the wizard knowing about all his nefarious plans ahead of time, and take steps to prevent divinations from breaking the game.

[Vinyl Scratch]

Divination is literally legalized metagaming.

[GreatWyrmGold]

One thing is that they work well with wizards. Given sufficient preparation, they can use the wizard's greatest strength to cover its greatest weakness. That strength is how flexible they are in the variety of spells they can cast (far more than other arcane casters, and if the DM is flexible in letting you scribe spells off the typical spell list [whether adapted from other classes or created, with oversight, from whole cloth], more than any other caster], but its greatest weakness (especially compared with the sorcerer) is how limited it is at any given moment, especially if the wizard is taking advantage of the more specialized spells.

How does this help? Simple. Divine, figure out what spells will help, prepare them.

[GilesTheCleric]

They're strong for all the reasons folks have already stated, but I'd like to point out a different reason that they're strong: divination spells are offensive. In dnd, killing everything else dead before it kills you dead is the most efficient way of playing. For example, if your wizard wins initiative in a 1v1 fight vs an ogre with a club that's bigger than the wizard, then all the wizard needs to do is cast Dominate Monster, Grease, Shivering Touch, or even a Fireball if the wizard has got the mojo. Anything that targets the ogre's low will and reflex saves, removing it as a threat before it splats the wizard.

By knowing that the wizard is going to fight an Ogre the next day (Divination, Contact other plane, etc), the wizard then has time to make a knowledge check about ogres or cast another divination spell (scrying, know opponent, know vulnerabilities) in order to determine how to kill it dead very fast.

Abjuration spells are also very powerful, but they're defensive spells*, in that they don't kill the foe or disable it with a single spell. If the wizard is facing an Ogre Mage, for example, he could cast Dispel Magic to get rid of whatever buffs the Ogre Mage has up, or maybe to counterspell. In the former case, the (now debuffed) Ogre Mage can just cast a Disintegrate, Black Tentacles, Shivering Touch, or even a Fireball if it's got the mojo to target the Wizard's poor fort, ref, grapple, and dex and kill him with a single spell. In the latter case, the Ogre Mage might get a bit miffed that its spell gets countered, but it could also see the wizard holding its action, determine that the wizard has either readied an action or a counterspell, and decide to just go splat him instead with that giant club.

*Now, at high levels where the wizard and the level 20 Ogre Mage both have no weaknesses, abjurations do become actual attack spells -- the first one to dispel the other's invulnerabilities gets the first shot at a Dominate Monster or Disintegrate, and thus wins. With optimization, "high levels" can happen much sooner (Abrupt Jaunt at level one, Lesser Celerity at 3, Celerity at 7, Swift Etherealness at 9, Contingency+Craft Contingent Spell at 11).

[Taelas]

Why are divination spells "so strong"? Because in thought exercises, they predict everything perfectly.

[Cruiser1]

Why are divination spells "so strong"? Because in thought exercises, they predict everything perfectly.
Outside of theoretical optimization (TO), divination spells don't predict everything perfectly. For example, the Commune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm) spell says, "The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. 'Unclear' is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient."

[Taelas]

Outside of theoretical optimization (TO), divination spells don't predict everything perfectly. For example, the Commune (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm) spell says, "The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity’s knowledge. 'Unclear' is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient."

Yeah, but TO is happy to ignore those limitations (just as they ignore most others).

[Telok]

Yeah, but TO is happy to ignore those limitations (just as they ignore most others).

Of course some of us don't do TO.

For divination to be powerful three things have to happen. First the DM has to be willing to let the spells do what they say. This isn't a RAW vs RAI thing, it's just the DM not saying "lol nope!" whenever a divination other than Detect Magic and Identify come up. Second, the rest of the party has to be on board with taking five minutes to think and prepare. My current character has easy access to clairvoyance, scrying, etc, but there's a goofball idiot in the group so those only get used when he isn't at game. The other times we usually spend our resources pulling his ass out of the fire. Third, preparation has to be possible. If you get dropped in a sealed pocket dimension unexpectedly and have to get out in a certain amount of time it may not be possible for you to take the time to divine the path ahead and then spend a day or two setting up your spell list and potion or scroll stocks.

When a diviner character is given free reign to act and prepare it's a powerful tool. If you're playing with tools and divinations don't work or you have to keep reacting to stupid then divination is weak.

Heck, it's a measly 25 Spellcraft DC to identify potions. The psion in my party is making that check because the arcane and divine casters can't be bothered to. And never mind the five or six magic rings and wands in the loot bag, identifying those is never important untill you're going to sell them because they're never anything useful right? Divination is rarely used in my games, but not because it's weak.

[Taelas]

The problem I have are with things like this statement:


A properly paranoid spellcaster (and the only spellcasters that get to high level are the properly paranoid ones) will use a part of his daily spellslots on generalized divinations to find out if there's a threat to him if he has nothing more pressing to do with them.

It is something that is really only said in a TO-environment, and it makes the assumption that divinations will just solve everything, with no regards to how the spells actually work. "Generalized divinations"? What? What does that even mean?

You use divinations when there is something specific you are trying to learn. You don't use them to make sure you don't accidentally slip on the bathroom tiles and bash your skull in on the edge of the sink. But that's how people treat them. "I will just use divinations to protect me from any threat whatsoever, so I can be totally prepared no matter what happens to me." It is meaningless posturing.

[Petrocorus]

Heck, it's a measly 25 Spellcraft DC to identify potions. The psion in my party is making that check because the arcane and divine casters can't be bothered to. And never mind the five or six magic rings and wands in the loot bag, identifying those is never important untill you're going to sell them because they're never anything useful right? Divination is rarely used in my games, but not because it's weak.

What's the problem? Are they afraid of the cost?

[Story]

That's odd, because Artificer's Monocle is pretty cheap, especially if the party chips in.

[Telok]

What's the problem? Are they afraid of the cost?
I couldn't tell you. I cut my teeth on ad&d where you were happy to have a command word and an open field to experiment in.

As to the "general divinations" stuff it really depends on the level of the game. In a game without too much time pressure a couple of Divination spells a week is easily reasonable. Common questions might include "If I don't protect against scrying this week will it bite me in the butt?" or "Will memorizing all fire spells be a good idea?" Much of what you'd actually ask would depend on the campaign you're in. In my current game having the time to drop a Clairvoyance or Augury might have saved us two Raise Dead spells this week by forwarning us of the ghost wizard and his two duskblade death knights in the next room.

[Sam K]

It is something that is really only said in a TO-environment, and it makes the assumption that divinations will just solve everything, with no regards to how the spells actually work. "Generalized divinations"? What? What does that even mean?

You use divinations when there is something specific you are trying to learn. You don't use them to make sure you don't accidentally slip on the bathroom tiles and bash your skull in on the edge of the sink. But that's how people treat them. "I will just use divinations to protect me from any threat whatsoever, so I can be totally prepared no matter what happens to me." It is meaningless posturing.

Generalized divination (cast at the end of day with remaining spell slots): "Will I be attacked tomorrow?" "Will anyone or anything try to enter my keep without my express permission tomorrow?", "Is anyone currently planning an attack against me?" If any of those "ping", you can use further divinations to get some details (assuming you're a reasonably high level character, you could keep some scrolls around for cases where you need more specific divinations). Keep in mind, none of this is very high TO; it's the equivilent of a melee character keeping a spare weapon (spending some of your resources on having a backup in case you need it).

Ofcourse, stuff like that is very dependent on wording and on how the DM handles divination. All of the above divinations could come up as "maybe", with future divinations giving no more answers. But a DM refusing to let you use your class abilities can ruin any class/build. This is why so many of us talk in TO-terms, if you start assuming that your DM will not allow you to use abilities, EVERYTHING is useless.

[Taelas]

That is not what the spells are for. It is also silly. Petitioning the higher powers for answers isn't like turning on the weather channel.

Comparing this to carrying backup weapons is absurd. Having a broad spell repertoire is like carrying backup weapons.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem I have are with things like this statement:

It is something that is really only said in a TO-environment, and it makes the assumption that divinations will just solve everything, with no regards to how the spells actually work. "Generalized divinations"? What? What does that even mean?

You use divinations when there is something specific you are trying to learn. You don't use them to make sure you don't accidentally slip on the bathroom tiles and bash your skull in on the edge of the sink. But that's how people treat them. "I will just use divinations to protect me from any threat whatsoever, so I can be totally prepared no matter what happens to me." It is meaningless posturing.

It's true that it's more something to use for a BBEG wizard. Most PCs already get an idea what they're up against from the campaign hooks and can tailor their divinations accordingly.
It's also true that your DM can refuse you information. But by RAW divinations actually work that way. Houseruling them to preserve the mystery and keep PCs from solving everything in a single session doesn't change that.

And even nerfed divinations are still quite powerful unless your DM refuses to allow them at all.

[Ediwir]

That is not what the spells are for. It is also silly. Petitioning the higher powers for answers isn't like turning on the weather channel.

You're talking about divine casters.
Arcane casters are quite prone to using their power at their whim. Well, maybe spontaneous casters more than wizards, but the point is - they don't answer to a god, they answer to themselves. Power does things to a man's way to consider what's a waste and what's not.

There's arcane divinations that contact higher beings, but those are more for detailed answers than generic ones.

Oh, and btw. Just because it's all TO... I did play one of those paranoid wizards. Was fun.

[nedz]

This is one of those things which is highly dependant upon the player.

To be effective the player has to

Cast them at the right time
Choose the right target
Ask the right questions


Usually, in actual play, one of these will be off.

[Sam K]

That is not what the spells are for. It is also silly. Petitioning the higher powers for answers isn't like turning on the weather channel.

Comparing this to carrying backup weapons is absurd. Having a broad spell repertoire is like carrying backup weapons.

No, the weather channel is less reliable than higher powers :)

Why is it silly? In real life, we have countless intelligent people trying to predict the future, using great amount of resources. We try to predict the weather, the stock market, the actions of our enemies, so that we can act accordingly. In real life we use computers and statistics. In D&D, there is magic. Why wouldn't intelligent, powerful people try to use magic to predict the future in order to protect their position?

I will admit that this isn't how most people imagine a D&D game would play; I personally don't think spending half a session figuring out how to word my divinations sound like that much fun, but it's a viable play style at higher optimization levels. If you don't want to play like that, that's fine. But the tools exist to play that way. There are no rules saying you can't or shouldn't play that way.

As for the backup weapon thing, that was specifically about keeping some extra scrolls of divination spells, because a common argument is that you may not have enough spells to divine multiple questions every day. Essentially, spending some of your resources to cover for that situation.

[Taelas]

You're talking about divine casters.
Arcane casters are quite prone to using their power at their whim. Well, maybe spontaneous casters more than wizards, but the point is - they don't answer to a god, they answer to themselves. Power does things to a man's way to consider what's a waste and what's not.
No, I am not. The bread-and-butter arcane divination spell is contact other plane. To get reliable answers, you need to speak with a greater deity.

It gives one-word answers.

[Killer Angel]

One of the things I like more of divination, is that a divination specialist must give up only one other school. And there are useful divination spells for every single level.

Leaving out TO power of divination spells, those are two things that, combined, make diviners very good wizards.

[atemu1234]

Because it allows you to eliminate the usefulness of Rogues, and Trapfinding becomes asinine.

[Ediwir]

No, I am not. The bread-and-butter arcane divination spell is contact other plane. To get reliable answers, you need to speak with a greater deity.

It gives one-word answers.

You also risk to be unable to cast spells for the next month.
I doubt anyone would use it as a bread-and-butter divination spell.

[ryu]

You also risk to be unable to cast spells for the next month.
I doubt anyone would use it as a bread-and-butter divination spell.

Eh just raise your int check high enough to pass on a one. It's not a save, so one isn't auto fail.

[Ediwir]

Eh just raise your int check high enough to pass on a one. It's not a save, so one isn't auto fail.

DC is 16. Sure, a +15 bonus on an Int check might not be that impossible to have, depending on level, but... Doesn't asking for answer by that time kind of seem pointless?
(Moment of Prescience is applicable only to opposed ability checks afaik)

[ryu]

DC is 16. Sure, a +15 bonus on an Int check might not be that impossible to have, depending on level, but... Doesn't asking for answer by that time kind of seem pointless?
(Moment of Prescience is applicable only to opposed ability checks afaik)

With contact other plane? One of the most potent information gathering tools in the game contact other plane? The one that can get you information on people who are mind-blanked, locked in a lead lined room, and even vecna blooded if you're tricky enough? The same divination whose only method I've found to render pointless is to cycle vecna blooded off and on regularly while using mindrape on myself to hide triggers for contingent spells inside other contingent spells such that no one, not even the gods or myself, know what I'm capable of at any given moment? Repeating this procedure DAILY from inside my own demiplane fortress with every possible defense and ward I could think of, while still not considering myself truly safe? Contact other plane is a terrifying weapon and should be treated as such.

[Story]

You also risk to be unable to cast spells for the next month.
I doubt anyone would use it as a bread-and-butter divination spell.

Only if you're a Sorceror. Wizards can auto pass just by taking 10.

[Ediwir]

Not all theorycrafting is made from your own personal demiplane ;) (and not everyone starts from an Int40)

Sure, contact other planes is great.
But if you have "your own personal demiplane" you likely already know who the main sources of threats will be, or not?


Only if you're a Sorceror. Wizards can auto pass just by taking 10.

Two things wreck theorycrafting.
"the DM won't let you do anything" and "the DM will let you do anything".
taking 10 on a check with consequences that serious... every day... a few times a day... with Gods involved... yeah, somehow i just don't see it happening.

[ryu]

You don't seem to understand the point of ''paranoid'' wizard. Didn't you know that the more power a being obtains the more that same being worries about somehow losing that power? Could be dying. Could be an unknown rival mage. Could be some new end of the world scenario. Properly paranoid means you worry about all of that and more while acting instead of reacting.

[Ediwir]

Oh, i get it, don't worry :) I'm just taking it to a more... Mortal level?
As i said not everyone has its own demiplane. And you can be paranoid even at mid-to-high levels, when Int40 isn't actually a thing :)

[Story]

taking 10 on a check with consequences that serious... every day... a few times a day... with Gods involved... yeah, somehow i just don't see it happening.


When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10).

Are you in combat when you cast it? Are you being distracted? No? Then you're good.

It pretty clearly works according to the rules. Sure some DMs won't let do it, but said DMs would likely render COP useless anyway.

[ryu]

Oh, i get it, don't worry :) I'm just taking it to a more... Mortal level?
As i said not everyone has its own demiplane. And you can be paranoid even at mid-to-high levels, when Int40 isn't actually a thing :)

My alternative is that if the thought that you're paranoid enough ever so much as enters your mind, you aren't paranoid enough. This is different from the thought that you are as paranoid as you are currently capable of being, so long as you have a plan to become more paranoid in the future. Also why don't all high level wizards have their own demiplane? It's just a single high level spell and a really useful one at that. Significantly easier than even 40 INT and much MUCH easier than the chain of actions required to properly defend against contact other plane.

[Sith_Happens]

taking 10 on a check with consequences that serious... every day... a few times a day... with Gods involved... yeah, somehow i just don't see it happening.

Taking 10 doesn't care what the consequences for failure are, only whether you have peace and quiet during the attempt.