First-time player playing a 3.5 Tiefling Rogue. I could use some tips

[Pooplorde]

Hey everyone! I hope I'm not unknowingly breaking any rules or common sense (I looked around to see if I was)

I recently (~6 sessions) started playing D&D with some friends.

I started as a human rogue with a dark background - and as it turns out, from what I've gathered so far, there was a pact of some sort and as it turns out I'm a Tiefling. At level 2 horns started to grow and I could see a bit in the dark. Yesterday I leveled up to 3 and I'm now 100% Tiefling, and got the Darkness spell, night vision and resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5. I'm pretty sure everything is here: http://dndsrd.net/monstersOtoR.html#tiefling (Ctrl+F for tiefling, but I'm p sure you guys know all this already)

My party is composed of lawful good / neutral good characters and me, so they were pretty uncomfortable with my transformation. To make matters worse, I was scouting ahead a dungeon with the party's paladin when we ran into a trap. The paladin died, and I survived. I got experience from it and leveled up (thus becoming a full Tiefling). The previous (level 1 -> 2) transformation was equally poorly timed: one of our players had to leave the group because of real life matters and fell into a coma ingame. I had literally just woken up (and leveled up) when everyone was finding out he was a goner and I had little horns.

Even ****tier: the DM decided that because I'm a tiefling, and because of the (as of now unknown) nature of my pact, I sometimes have to roll to see if I'll do evil stuff, even if unintentionally. I took my party to show where the paladin had died, rolled a 6, ended up laughing maniacally upon looking at his now split-in-half body (a giant lizard thing rolled 20 and instakilled him, cutting his body in half. It didn't actually eat his remains). The party members were terrified.

I'm wondering where I should go from here. Any useful combinations I should know? Optimization? I saw some threads with "exploits", are there any that would be useful for me? As I said in the title, I am pretty new to D&D, so anything you guys have to say would be appreciated!

[Urpriest]

Question: has your DM talked to you about Level Adjustment? Usually, being a Tiefling (or various other races that are slightly more powerful than the races in the PHB) means you have one fewer level than the other PCs. I'm assuming that when you "leveled up" into Tiefling, what was actually happening is that you would normally have leveled up, but that level got taken up by becoming a Tiefling instead.

Being a Tiefling isn't all that great, and usually isn't worth a level, so just going on power (not to mention avoiding conflict with your party!) you'll probably want to try to find a cure for your transformation. Whether you'll be able to will depend on what sort of plot the DM is pursuing.

In the meantime, as a Rogue who's one level lower than the rest of the party, you'll be pretty fragile. Since you can get Sneak Attack against enemies that are flat-footed, it's often best to stay behind the rest of the party for the first round, and attack an enemy that hasn't acted yet with a ranged weapon. The next round you can then move in to melee if there's an enemy who's already focused on one of your partymates.

To help do this at low levels, Rapid Shot is a pretty useful feat, to get an extra sneak attack in the first round. I don't know what feats you've already taken, so I don't know whether you can fit it in, and it might be that by the time you can take it this trick won't be the best option anymore, but it may be worth looking into.

[Pooplorde]

Question: has your DM talked to you about Level Adjustment? Usually, being a Tiefling (or various other races that are slightly more powerful than the races in the PHB) means you have one fewer level than the other PCs. I'm assuming that when you "leveled up" into Tiefling, what was actually happening is that you would normally have leveled up, but that level got taken up by becoming a Tiefling instead.

Yeah, he explained that to me. He said it was worth it because of the stuff I'd get (the resists, night vision and the Darkness spell) but that it was tough because I'd be underleveled (no extra HP or attack - though I did get a +6, 1d6 bow last session so that's kind of helpful? I think?).

Right now we're in a dungeon with skeletons, and I got wrecked last session. Both my dagger and bow were not effective against them, so I pretty much was in a supporting role (which is definitely not what I'm supposed to be doing).


Being a Tiefling isn't all that great, and usually isn't worth a level, so just going on power (not to mention avoiding conflict with your party!) you'll probably want to try to find a cure for your transformation. Whether you'll be able to will depend on what sort of plot the DM is pursuing.

Being a tiefling is totally in line with my background. Itif I have to find a cure. Would finding a cure let me "regain" the level I lost during the transformation?


In the meantime, as a Rogue who's one level lower than the rest of the party, you'll be pretty fragile. Since you can get Sneak Attack against enemies that are flat-footed, it's often best to stay behind the rest of the party for the first round, and attack an enemy that hasn't acted yet with a ranged weapon. The next round you can then move in to melee if there's an enemy who's already focused on one of your partymates.

Yup, being fragile checks out! I have 12HP atm. Sneak-attacking isn't working so well for me lately: I tried asking my DM about it a few times, and the creatures can't know I'm there for the sneak attack to work. It just so happens that they always do! I can't move around without them noticing me, and if they see me once, even if they're attacking another player, it doesn't matter because they'll know I'm there. Even if they haven't acted, they already saw me, so no sneaking.


To help do this at low levels, Rapid Shot is a pretty useful feat, to get an extra sneak attack in the first round. I don't know what feats you've already taken, so I don't know whether you can fit it in, and it might be that by the time you can take it this trick won't be the best option anymore, but it may be worth looking into.

I'll post the feats I have soon, once I get home and get my character. I'm pretty sure I don't have Rapid Shot, but I think I have Quick Draw.

[Lord Loss]

Yeah, he explained that to me. He said it was worth it because of the stuff I'd get (the resists, night vision and the Darkness spell) but that it was tough because I'd be underleveled (no extra HP or attack - though I did get a +6, 1d6 bow last session so that's kind of helpful? I think?).

Right now we're in a dungeon with skeletons, and I got wrecked last session. Both my dagger and bow were not effective against them, so I pretty much was in a supporting role (which is definitely not what I'm supposed to be doing).



Being a tiefling is totally in line with my background. Itif I have to find a cure. Would finding a cure let me "regain" the level I lost during the transformation?



Yup, being fragile checks out! I have 12HP atm. Sneak-attacking isn't working so well for me lately: I tried asking my DM about it a few times, and the creatures can't know I'm there for the sneak attack to work. It just so happens that they always do! I can't move around without them noticing me, and if they see me once, even if they're attacking another player, it doesn't matter because they'll know I'm there. Even if they haven't acted, they already saw me, so no sneaking.



I'll post the feats I have soon, once I get home and get my character. I'm pretty sure I don't have Rapid Shot, but I think I have Quick Draw.

A +6 bow? Or +6 total on attack rolls with your blow? Because a +6 Bow is technically impossible, as enhancement bonuses are supposed to cap out at +5 on weapons (and that would be way over your expected wealth-by level).

Also your DM's adjudication of sneak-attacks is incorrect, and severely caps your capabilities as a rogue. If he's adamant on such a ruling, I would consider swapping into another class ASAP, as this will severely hamstring you. Having a level of rogue will still be useful for the early boost in skill-points, but if you're effectively unable to sneak-attack in most situations, you'll be heavily inefficient for a great many levels.

[Pooplorde]

A +6 bow? Or +6 total on attack rolls with your blow? Because a +6 Bow is technically impossible, as enhancement bonuses are supposed to cap out at +5 on weapons (and that would be way over your expected wealth-by level).

Also your DM's adjudication of sneak-attacks is incorrect, and severely caps your capabilities as a rogue. If he's adamant on such a ruling, I would consider swapping into another class ASAP.

Like, every time I roll a d20 with my bow I get +6 added on that roll. I'm not sure what that's called in English. Attack rolls?

[Lord Loss]

Like, every time I roll a d20 with my bow I get +6 added on that roll. I'm not sure what that's called in English. Attack rolls?

Your attack bonus with a ranged is supposed to be equal to your dex mod + size modifier + your weapon's enhancement bonus, plus your base attack bonus.

[Troacctid]

If you're being compelled to do evil acts, you'd better make a Knowledge (The Planes) check, because Tieflings aren't evil! They have fiendish ancestors, but their bloodline doesn't influence their behavior. (Most commoners don't know this, which is why Tieflings are persecuted in so many communities.)

If you're making saves against turning evil against your will, that's a serious cause for concern: you might actually be possessed by a demon or something.

[Pooplorde]

Your attack bonus with a ranged is supposed to be equal to your dex mod + size modifier + your weapon's enhancement bonus, plus your base attack bonus.

I think it looks like this (http://puu.sh/hAi9s/d98d826d56.png) - are my stats' influcence (dex mod added to the weapon's attack bonus slot?


If you're being compelled to do evil acts, you'd better make a Knowledge (The Planes) check, because Tieflings aren't evil! They have fiendish ancestors, but their bloodline doesn't influence their behavior. (Most commoners don't know this, which is why Tieflings are persecuted in so many communities.)

If you're making saves against turning evil against your will, that's a serious cause for concern: you might actually be possessed by a demon or something.

Well, I had a nightmare where everything was dark and I couldn't see anything, but I could feel a powerful presence. A voice spoke to me saying "I am proud of how far you've come, but you know everything has a price. Come, child". I saw a gigantic dark hand materializing in the darkness (did I mention everything was very dark? I'm guessing it's the demon of darkness or something?) and it touched me on the forehead. I woke up and the transformation was complete. I guess the "price" is me being unwillingly evil? I'll try the knowledge check next time, though!

[Surpriser]

First of all: Find out how Sneak Attacks really work and discuss it with your DM. There are a lot of different ways to gain Sneak Attacks and as a rogue you should know about them all!
If your DM sticks with his interpretation, find another class, as SA will not work for you: Enemies know you are there at least as soon as you attack, which means that you would get a single sneak attack per encounter at maximum.


I think it looks like this - are my stats' influcence (dex mod added to the weapon's attack bonus slot?
This could be right. That entry means that whenever you attack with the bow (roll the d20) you add 6 to the number rolled. However, this is not a quality of the bow. Rather, it represents your ability to shoot that bow. If you have a magical bow (such as a +1 weapon), this can increase the bonus on your attack rolls.

EDIT:
One other thing: The DM dictating the actions of a player character can lead to a lot of troubles. Definitely discuss with him which kind of actions you will have to expect (and accept) and find clear boundaries on what he can make you do. Otherwise, you risk having to play a character that is more pain than fun for you.

[Troacctid]

Well, I had a nightmare where everything was dark and I couldn't see anything, but I could feel a powerful presence. A voice spoke to me saying "I am proud of how far you've come, but you know everything has a price. Come, child". I saw a gigantic dark hand materializing in the darkness (did I mention everything was very dark? I'm guessing it's the demon of darkness or something?) and it touched me on the forehead. I woke up and the transformation was complete. I guess the "price" is me being unwillingly evil? I'll try the knowledge check next time, though!

That is definitely not a normal thing that all Tieflings go through during puberty or whatever. Sounds like some demonic entity is personally messing with you. You should be concerned.

[Urpriest]

Yup, being fragile checks out! I have 12HP atm. Sneak-attacking isn't working so well for me lately: I tried asking my DM about it a few times, and the creatures can't know I'm there for the sneak attack to work. It just so happens that they always do! I can't move around without them noticing me, and if they see me once, even if they're attacking another player, it doesn't matter because they'll know I'm there. Even if they haven't acted, they already saw me, so no sneaking.

As others have said, your DM is being a jerk here. I don't know whether they legitimately don't know better, or whether they're singling you out (the whole forcing you to do evil acts thing makes me think it's the latter), but if you read the rules it's very specific on when rogues get to sneak attack, and if they haven't acted you get the bonus damage.

[Taelas]

Yeah, it sounds like your DM isn't really playing fair, here.

Normally you can hide even if the opponent knows you are there -- they just can't see you. If you are out of line of sight, you should absolutely be allowed to make a Hide check, which is then opposed by the opponent's Spot check. For example, if you duck behind a bush, they might know you're behind the bush -- but as long as your total Hide is higher than their total Spot, they can't see exactly where you are (so they can't defend against you) and they lose their Dex to AC, allowing you to make a Sneak Attack.

[Marlowe]

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[WeaselGuy]

I'm not even going to comment on the whole "my dm is making my tiefling be evil" stuff, other than to say, that sucks. But, I will link this handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6), to help you be a better rogue! :smallbiggrin:

[Sith_Happens]

Yeah, he explained that to me. He said it was worth it because of the stuff I'd get (the resists, night vision and the Darkness spell) but that it was tough because I'd be underleveled (no extra HP or attack - though I did get a +6, 1d6 bow last session so that's kind of helpful? I think?).

The higher level you get the tougher and less worth it it becomes. Fear not though, the developers heard your cry and invented level adjustment buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), which you should make sure your DM is going to let you use. Once you gain your third class level you pay 3000 XP to remove your level adjustment, making you exactly a third level character. Then, since you're a level behind the rest of the party, you'll start earning 12.5% extra XP per encounter until you've caught up with them.


Sneak-attacking isn't working so well for me lately: I tried asking my DM about it a few times, and the creatures can't know I'm there for the sneak attack to work. It just so happens that they always do! I can't move around without them noticing me, and if they see me once, even if they're attacking another player, it doesn't matter because they'll know I'm there. Even if they haven't acted, they already saw me, so no sneaking.

As already mentioned, that's not how sneak attack works. You get to add your sneak attack damage any time your target is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, or if you're flanking. The former of those circumstances in turn has many different ways for it to happen, with the most common being that the target either can't see you or hasn't had its first turn yet.


Well, I had a nightmare where everything was dark and I couldn't see anything, but I could feel a powerful presence. A voice spoke to me saying "I am proud of how far you've come, but you know everything has a price. Come, child". I saw a gigantic dark hand materializing in the darkness (did I mention everything was very dark? I'm guessing it's the demon of darkness or something?) and it touched me on the forehead. I woke up and the transformation was complete. I guess the "price" is me being unwillingly evil? I'll try the knowledge check next time, though!

That's definitely out of the ordinary. Next time you're in town make a beeline for the nearest library (and drag anyone in the party with a good Knowledge: The Planes check with you) and find out everything you can about this pact you've supposedly made.

Also, what happened to your human bonus feat? That's kind of important. On the bright side, as an outsider you are now proficient with all martial weapons and shields. Time for some upgrades!:smallcool:

[Azoth]

Yeah...look for a way to get always on protection from evil and then laugh at this entity heartily. Seriously, DM screwing with player agency gets on my last nerve.

As for helping you out with rogue pointers and as a tiefling no less, what books are available for you to use for character building? That will greatly influence how much help we can give you with your build. Trust us, even with limited resources we can develop powerful builds that are easy and straightforward to play.

[Pooplorde]

The higher level you get the tougher and less worth it it becomes. Fear not though, the developers heard your cry and invented level adjustment buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm), which you should make sure your DM is going to let you use. Once you gain your third class level you pay 3000 XP to remove your level adjustment, making you exactly a third level character. Then, since you're a level behind the rest of the party, you'll start earning 12.5% extra XP per encounter until you've caught up with them.

Wouldn't that mean that once I have 4 levels (1 for tiefling and 3 rogue, so 2 level ups from now) I'll lose another level and have to catch up two? (the one I just sacrificed and the one I lost by becoming tiefling?)


Also, what happened to your human bonus feat? That's kind of important. On the bright side, as an outsider you are now proficient with all martial weapons and shields. Time for some upgrades!:smallcool:

What human bonus feat? I'm not sure what this means, I'm afraid.

Also holy crap, really? That's pretty awesome!

[Taelas]

Wouldn't that mean that once I have 4 levels (1 for tiefling and 3 rogue, so 2 level ups from now) I'll lose another level and have to catch up two? (the one I just sacrificed and the one I lost by becoming tiefling?)
The way it works is that you have what is called a level adjustment. It is basically a dummy level you get for being a powerful race. LA buyoff removes it. So when your class reaches level 3 (making your total ECL -- which stands for Effective Character Level -- 4 because of the level adjustment), you would pay 3,000 XP, and remove the LA. You would then be a normal level 3 character, and as soon as you earned those 3,000 XP back, you would become level 4.

It is a variant rule, though, and not everyone uses it.


What human bonus feat? I'm not sure what this means, I'm afraid.
Humans start with an extra feat at 1st level. Most other races only have 1.


Also holy crap, really? That's pretty awesome!
That is what the level adjustment pays for.

[Urpriest]

What human bonus feat? I'm not sure what this means, I'm afraid.

Also holy crap, really? That's pretty awesome!

How many feats do you have?

If you started as a human, you would normally have started with two feats, while the other players started with only one. However, Tieflings just start with one feat. So did you lose a feat?

You would also have started with more skill points than a rogue of another race would have, but since Tieflings get an Int bonus that would have balanced out.

[Telonius]

Wouldn't that mean that once I have 4 levels (1 for tiefling and 3 rogue, so 2 level ups from now) I'll lose another level and have to catch up two? (the one I just sacrificed and the one I lost by becoming tiefling?)



What human bonus feat? I'm not sure what this means, I'm afraid.

Also holy crap, really? That's pretty awesome!

All characters get one feat for free at level one. Humans get two (as well as a bonus skill point each level) because they're humans. Other races have other bonuses and adjustments. For example, Elves get +2 dex -2 Con, proficiency with bows, immunity to sleep, and a bunch of other Elf-y stuff.

Tieflings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling) have the Outsider type, meaning they're descended from extraplanar beings (in the case of Tieflings, from devils or demons). From the description of Outsider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType):


Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

I have seen a bit of rules lawyering about the armor and shields (does the described Tiefling get its proficiency in Studded Leather from being a Tiefling, or from having a level in Warrior? - imo, it's listed, so they get it) but it's pretty clear that they get the weapon proficiency regardless.

[Pooplorde]

How many feats do you have?

If you started as a human, you would normally have started with two feats, while the other players started with only one. However, Tieflings just start with one feat. So did you lose a feat?

You would also have started with more skill points than a rogue of another race would have, but since Tieflings get an Int bonus that would have balanced out.

I finally have my sheet handy, so now I can tell you guys whatever you need to know!

The feats I have are Quick Draw and another that gives me +2 on Hide and Move Silently checks (couldn't find the name for it in English!). I suppose I didn't lose my feats, then? (Or did I just not win one? They're 1 every 3 levels, so I'd get one now but instead I became a Tiefling?)

[Taelas]

You get feats every 3 character levels -- that is, not including level adjustments.

The feat you're referring to is called Stealthy, by the way.

[nedz]

I finally have my sheet handy, so now I can tell you guys whatever you need to know!

The feats I have are Quick Draw and another that gives me +2 on Hide and Move Silently checks (couldn't find the name for it in English!). I suppose I didn't lose my feats, then? (Or did I just not win one? They're 1 every 3 levels, so I'd get one now but instead I became a Tiefling?)

How many HD (Hit Dice) do you have ?
If you are ECL 3 (Effective Character Level) then you should have 3 HD, or 2 HD if a +1 LA has been applied.
You get a feats dependant upon your HD: 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 and Humans get an extra feat at 1st level.

[Sith_Happens]

Also holy crap, really? That's pretty awesome!

You're also immune to anything that specifically affects humanoids (since you no longer are one), for better or worse. No Charm Person or Dominate Person to mess with you, but also no Reduce Person to help you sneak into places.


I finally have my sheet handy, so now I can tell you guys whatever you need to know!

The feats I have are Quick Draw and another that gives me +2 on Hide and Move Silently checks (couldn't find the name for it in English!). I suppose I didn't lose my feats, then? (Or did I just not win one? They're 1 every 3 levels, so I'd get one now but instead I became a Tiefling?)

You do still have the one from being human, then, since you're still 2nd level for the purpose of how many feats you have.