Tressym animal companion [3.5]

[Bad Wolf]

Is having a tressym as an animal companion worth not being able to cast buffing spells on it? It can fly, has INT 12, immunity to poison, darkvision 60, and is an adorable flying cat. Also has an insane hide modifier and good Spot and Listen modifiers.

On the downside, buffing an animal companion with 30+ spells so they can take down dragons seems to be about 1/3 of druid shenanigans.

I'm playing a Sidhe Scholar Druid, so it gets +1 hitpoint per HD, AND +2 to Cha and Dex.

[eggynack]

I'm inclined to think not. You're trading away spontaneous summoning, which is your best source of meat when you're not using your animal companion, and this creature seems like it'd die to a stiff breeze. The hide is good, but the move silently is a point of weakness where stealth goes. It also looks like you lack a method of distant communication, diminishing the value of stealth a bit. Overall though, the main point is that the animal companion is sweet, and this seems less so.

Edit: Considering further, it depends a decent amount on level. As the level increases, the value of a tressym relative to a normal companion increases, as that's when beatsticking goes down, and arbitrary intelligence based stuff goes up. If you can finagle it into wand use, even better. I dunno what the break point is though, and I'm inclined to think you'd be better off with urban companion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) in that situation.

[Bad Wolf]

Urban Companion just gives me a Familiar that's better at talking. And if I wanted to get a Tressym, I'd have to wait until fifth level, rather than 1st.

[Bronk]

Is having a tressym as an animal companion worth not being able to cast buffing spells on it?

I'm not seeing any reason you wouldn't be able to cast buffing spells on your tressym. It's treated as a regular animal companion in Sandstorm, and regular companions share spells, if that's the issue.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd say it's not. With Urban Companion the benefits pull ahead somewhere around level 12-15 compared to a normal animal companion. The Tressym has all the drawbacks of both. It's small and fragile like a familiar and can't get the best companion buffs, so it's not a good combat choice. But it still advances like an animal companion so you fall behind on HD (and thus, relevance) at the higher levels.

You're getting the intelligence, but not most of the other familiar benefits (Empathic Link, shared skills & saves, HP/HD dependant on yours,...) that make Urban Companion a valid high-level alternative to a normal animal companion.


I'm not seeing any reason you wouldn't be able to cast buffing spells on your tressym. It's treated as a regular animal companion in Sandstorm, and regular companions share spells, if that's the issue.

The issue is that Tressym were updated to be magical beasts, so any animal-only buffs don't work on it.

[Bad Wolf]

Hmm, general consensus is that its a bad idea. Time to pick another...is a Swindlespitter any good?

[eggynack]

Hmm, general consensus is that its a bad idea. Time to pick another...is a Swindlespitter any good?
It's alright early, but it's quite a bit below the level of other companions when you first get it, and the distance obviously increases from there. Fancy animal companion research indicates that you're usually better off continually upgrading if you're picking top of the heap companions. Swindlespitters are nifty though, what with the whole ranged attack companion thing, even if they're not the best.

[Bad Wolf]

What would you say is the best at first level, besides the riding dog/wolf?

[eggynack]

What would you say is the best at first level, besides the riding dog/wolf?
Well, if you're a halfling then the brixashulty from races of the wild is some sweet business, and if you're not, then the climbdog from the arms and equipment guide is reasonable. They're a lot like riding dogs, but kinda different, and a bit and somewhat worse respectively. If you get rid of those four, then swindlespitter might top the list, though it's plausible that there are other creatures I just don't have on my list because they're just about strictly worse than riding dog, with swindlespitter finding a place on the list despite being worse than those theoretical creatures due to its unique nature. Although, if you've managed to finagle tressym onto your list, then you might be able to do the same with brixashulty in spite of legality issues, because it's clearly not overpowered in a world with riding dogs. It's a good creature if you want something more interesting than a riding dog without sacrificing much utility.

[Bad Wolf]

Well, if you're a halfling then the brixashulty from races of the wild is some sweet business, and if you're not, then the climbdog from the arms and equipment guide is reasonable. They're a lot like riding dogs, but kinda different, and a bit and somewhat worse respectively. If you get rid of those four, then swindlespitter might top the list, though it's plausible that there are other creatures I just don't have on my list because they're just about strictly worse than riding dog, with swindlespitter finding a place on the list despite being worse than those theoretical creatures due to its unique nature. Although, if you've managed to finagle tressym onto your list, then you might be able to do the same with brixashulty in spite of legality issues, because it's clearly not overpowered in a world with riding dogs. It's a good creature if you want something more interesting than a riding dog without sacrificing much utility.

Hmm...how about the plant companion from Dragon #357? Reasonably sturdy (I think), gets AC abilities among a few unique ones, and you might be able to awaken it, not exactly sure.

[eggynack]

Hmm...how about the plant companion from Dragon #357? Reasonably sturdy (I think), gets AC abilities among a few unique ones, and you might be able to awaken it, not exactly sure.
I haven't done much in the way of research into its full abilities yet, so I'm not entirely sure at the moment. However, some basic analysis should be trivial. Consider some comparisons across a few levels. At first, the major point of comparison is obviously the riding dog, where you end up with what looks like a just about strict advantage on the side of the dog, aside from the plant's type. The dog has higher HP, AC, attack, and an actual combat maneuver. Even if you go up to level two, where the plant is likely at its best assuming you choose powerful, you're still only ahead by two HP, while maintaining a disadvantaged position in every other respect. Then you hit level three, and the creatures just kinda hold the same position relative to the other, with equal HD matched by superior other stats and abilities on the dog.

That, of course, is where the fleshraker comes in. It's a creature with three poisoning attacks, and really, it's running superior everything aside from maybe HP if you push for that. And, while there are some levels where the plant can gain stuff without the fleshraker getting anything, I don't really see anything that can give the plant anything like parity among its acquirable abilities, because it just gets them way too slow. I'd figure without doing the math that just spamming powerful would get you the closest to some unique utility, because it's a neat power you can pick up fast. But, overall, the comparison looks bad at first, and after the fleshraker I think it gets even worse.

[Bad Wolf]

Why do all the cool companions suck? Okay thanks, but I'm gonna try and make it work anyway.

[eggynack]

Why do all the cool companions suck? Okay thanks, but I'm gonna try and make it work anyway.
They don't all suck. The real problem you're facing at this exact moment is that the animal companion itself is a really powerful ability that's heavily supported by both the druid's other abilities and the various books, and you're trying to get a not animal companion animal companion. But, if you stay within the parameters of normal companion stuff, some of the optimal options are cool. One of the big problems, however, is that some of the options that would otherwise be cool, like the fleshraker or even the wolf (cooler but less optimal than a riding dog), are in such common usage that they lose cool value. However, I think the brixashulty is cool, cause you get that weird knock-back thing, and if you get up in levels, then the fhorge (FF, 72) is both really odd and seemingly really effective. As for plant in the particular, it seems mediocre but it's alien enough from standard companion stuff that it could prove workable. The primary concern, to my mind, is that you get kinda stuck in that whole plant mode, and lack the ability to leave it for better companion stuff.

[Bronk]

Why do all the cool companions suck? Okay thanks, but I'm gonna try and make it work anyway.

No way! Your tressym idea was great. Like you said...


It can fly, has INT 12, immunity to poison, darkvision 60, and is an adorable flying cat. Also has an insane hide modifier and good Spot and Listen modifiers.

I can see why you'd want an animal companion that had more than 3 HP at first level, but all of those things you mentioned are that much more useful! It's like a super familiar. In fact, a first level familiar is worse than a tressym in every way, since they only have an intelligence of 6 and 'empathic link' which is not that great a means of communication, and heck, they probably have more hit points than the familiar too.

In fact, it's even better at higher levels... It gets full animal companion HD/STR/DEX/ natural armor progression, and because it's smart you can talk with it and ask it to take the feats that you want it to take. You never have to worry about handle animal checks, or worry that your DM won't let it use magic items, and by then your druid would have plenty of buffing spells that could affect your critter, like 'superior magic fang', 'stormrage' or 'shapechange'.

Anyway, I thought your original idea was a cool one. Good luck with your character!

Edit: Oh, and remember that unlike for a familiar, there's no in game penalty for losing or switching out your animal companions beyond your getting attached to them.

[eggynack]

I can see why you'd want an animal companion that had more than 3 HP at first level, but all of those things you mentioned are that much more useful! It's like a super familiar. In fact, a first level familiar is worse than a tressym in every way, since they only have an intelligence of 6 and 'empathic link' which is not that great a means of communication, and heck, they probably have more hit points than the familiar too.
But more than 6 intelligence is kinda pointless on a familiar, and empathic link is better than nothing, especially if you just need the broad strokes communicated. Also, it doesn't look like the spot and listen modifiers are actually that high here, cutting down on scouting potential. Finally, there is of course the additional bonus based benefits of having a familiar, which can be pretty strong on occasion.


In fact, it's even better at higher levels... It gets full animal companion HD/STR/DEX/ natural armor progression, and because it's smart you can talk with it and ask it to take the feats that you want it to take. You never have to worry about handle animal checks, or worry that your DM won't let it use magic items, and by then your druid would have plenty of buffing spells that could affect your critter, like 'superior magic fang', 'stormrage' or 'shapechange'.
A big part of the issue with buffing is less related to the fact that you can't use animal growth, and more related to the fact that you don't want to use animal growth, because the tressym is so puny. The spells you'd want to use independent of the companion's capabilities are so high in level so as to be irrelevant.


Edit: Oh, and remember that unlike for a familiar, there's no in game penalty for losing or switching out your animal companions beyond your getting attached to them.
The familiar in this case would be an urban companion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), which lacks that downside and has a bunch of neat upsides, including the loss of that lag.

[sleepyphoenixx]

In fact, it's even better at higher levels... It gets full animal companion HD/STR/DEX/ natural armor progression, and because it's smart you can talk with it and ask it to take the feats that you want it to take. You never have to worry about handle animal checks, or worry that your DM won't let it use magic items, and by then your druid would have plenty of buffing spells that could affect your critter, like 'superior magic fang', 'stormrage' or 'shapechange'.


Except that at level 20 your Tressym will have only 13 HD. It's also still puny, so the Str and Dex don't really do much for it.
The Urban Companion shares your skill ranks, and the skillmonkey role is much more suited to a companion like that. It also counts as your HD for level dependant effects and will have a lot more hit points (3/4 of yours).

The only halfway worthwhile benefit the animal companion gets over the urban companion is feats, and it won't really qualify for anything worldshaking.

Also, no druid has to worry about handle animal checks for their companion unless they massively dump cha and can't afford to invest a few skill points. It's not that hard a DC, and you get an automatic bonus on it.
Still, the Tressym AC competes more against Urban Companions. It has an entirely different role from the normal beatstick companions, so the handle animal skill is a non-issue in either case.

[Bronk]

But more than 6 intelligence is kinda pointless on a familiar, and empathic link is better than nothing, especially if you just need the broad strokes communicated. Also, it doesn't look like the spot and listen modifiers are actually that high here, cutting down on scouting potential. Finally, there is of course the additional bonus based benefits of having a familiar, which can be pretty strong on occasion.

Regular familiars are weird... They start with an INT of 6, which may not be animal intelligence but is still a ways below the average human, especially when they can't even talk to their master properly until level 5. They can deliver touch spells at level 3, but how? They're dumb as a post, you can't talk to them, and by all rights your empathic link would just be giving you a lot of confusion. They could have been better written.

The urban companion seems slightly better than this at first, but the urban companion is somewhat poorly thought out. It follows the rules for familiars, so it becomes a magical beast, so you can't talk to it with 'speak with animals'. Later, it gives you the ability to speak to other's of it's kind, which you would assume means other animals, but still not your own companion. I suppose you could keep a second one around to translate for you?

I'm sure the DM would houserule this, and you could get around it partially by wasting a few skill points on language skills that they would share or fully by springing for a pearl of speech, but still.

Speaking of which, I don't suppose you've ever come across any official guidelines for how intelligent a conversation you can have while using 'speak with animals' or 'speak with plants'?



A big part of the issue with buffing is less related to the fact that you can't use animal growth, and more related to the fact that you don't want to use animal growth, because the tressym is so puny. The spells you'd want to use independent of the companion's capabilities are so high in level so as to be irrelevant.


There are a lot of buffing spells other than animal growth... the ones I mentioned were just examples. Even so, these are all the same issues you would have with other types of improved companions, like exalted companions, but you get the benefits too, without having to use a valuable feat for it.


Except that at level 20 your Tressym will have only 13 HD. It's also still puny, so the Str and Dex don't really do much for it.
The Urban Companion shares your skill ranks, and the skillmonkey role is much more suited to a companion like that. It also counts as your HD for level dependant effects and will have a lot more hit points (3/4 of yours).

The str and dex bonuses would add up, and help with whatever other buffing you end up doing.

As for the skill points, that's the best part... the tressym is smart enough to use it's own skill ranks wisely so you don't have to waste yours. The HD thing is nice though, very familiary.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The urban companion seems slightly better than this at first, but the urban companion is somewhat poorly thought out. It follows the rules for familiars, so it becomes a magical beast, so you can't talk to it with 'speak with animals'. Later, it gives you the ability to speak to other's of it's kind, which you would assume means other animals, but still not your own companion. I suppose you could keep a second one around to translate for you?

The Urban Companion can speak with its master at 5th level, just like a normal familiar. The only differences are those that are stated in the text.

And a 6 int creature may not be very bright, but it's hardly useless. There are player characters with the same score. I personally treat it as someone who is simply-minded or like a young (6-8) child, but i'm not aware of any written guidelines.


The str and dex bonuses would add up, and help with whatever other buffing you end up doing.

As for the skill points, that's the best part... the tressym is smart enough to use it's own skill ranks wisely so you don't have to waste yours. The HD thing is nice though, very familiary.

A Tressym is tiny with Str 3. Getting a +6 on that from animal companion progression won't turn it into a serious combatant. No amount of buffs will, though the dex can help with ranged touch spells if you can get it the ability to hold wands or share some of the higher level ones. But the urban companion can start with higher dex.

And as a magical beast with Int 12 it gets 3 skill points/level, which don't exactly make it a skillmonkey.

[Bronk]

The Urban Companion can speak with its master at 5th level, just like a normal familiar. The only differences are those that are stated in the text.

True, I should have mentioned that I meant from levels 1-4.



And a 6 int creature may not be very bright, but it's hardly useless. There are player characters with the same score. I personally treat it as someone who is simply-minded or like a young (6-8) child, but i'm not aware of any written guidelines.

The guidelines I'm looking for is an explanation of where the intelligence comes from when talking to normally seemingly mindless plants and animal intelligence, well, animals. Basically, does it come from the spell, or do they talk to each other all the time when the spell isn't up? I don't know if you've ever read Knights of the Dinner Table, but at one point the Black Hands gaming group had a whole adventure that sparked from one of them getting angry with a plant that was giving them guff. After that, the whole forest was angry at them and if I remember, they ended up burning it down!

Familiars only get the ability to speak with others of their own kind later on, implying that they can't just do it normally, but who knows, that might just be because they're magical beasts now.

Long story short, I've never seen it given much thought, and I think it's pretty interesting, so I'm always on the lookout.



I'd say a 6 is a 'hulk smash' level of int... I always treat familiars as pretty smart in my games though, and I let them talk a bit right from the start.



A Tressym is tiny with Str 3. Getting a +6 on that from animal companion progression won't turn it into a serious combatant. No amount of buffs will, though the dex can help with ranged touch spells if you can get it the ability to hold wands or share some of the higher level ones. But the urban companion can start with higher dex.

That's why for melee you'd normally focus on getting more attacks (haste, rapidstrike) then use other types of damage, like energy damage and so on, at least until more powerful magic comes into play. The dex works great for finessable attacks.



And as a magical beast with Int 12 it gets 3 skill points/level, which don't exactly make it a skillmonkey.

That's more than enough to max out UMD (or whatever), so the druid doesn't have to.

I'm just saying that a Tressym isn't a bad choice. Man, now I want a one...

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's more than enough to max out UMD (or whatever), so the druid doesn't have to.

I'm just saying that a Tressym isn't a bad choice. Man, now I want a one...

Why wouldn't the druid want to max UMD? It's something everyone should do if it's at all feasible.

And it's not that Tressym are a bad choice. They just make much better familiars than animal companions, because that plays to their strengths.
The animal companion progression is much more useful on a big, beefy BSF-type, and when you switch to more advanced companions as you increase in levels to keep their HD as close to yours as possible.
The Fleshraker is a bit of an anomaly because it's simply too good, to the point where it's superior to every other companion at least until level 16 or even further.

[Bronk]

The Fleshraker is a bit of an anomaly because it's simply too good, to the point where it's superior to every other companion at least until level 16 or even further.

Hmm, the Fleshraker (MM3) and venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms) came out only a month apart... I wonder if they writers knew how those would interact, or even if they knew about them?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Hmm, the Fleshraker (MM3) and venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms) came out only a month apart... I wonder if they writers knew how those would interact, or even if they knew about them?

I don't think it matters much. There's plenty of cases where newer stuff interacts in a similar manner with core content. And it's pretty doubtful the writers of Serpent Kingdoms where thinking about balance at all, considering some of the content.

And the Fleshraker is still a better companion than most others even without Venomfire. That triple-poison attack routine + leaping pounce + great stats combo is unique, and it's seriously powerful.
It's really only missing large size to turn it into the unchallenged king of companions.

[eggynack]

Regular familiars are weird... They start with an INT of 6, which may not be animal intelligence but is still a ways below the average human, especially when they can't even talk to their master properly until level 5. They can deliver touch spells at level 3, but how? They're dumb as a post, you can't talk to them, and by all rights your empathic link would just be giving you a lot of confusion. They could have been better written.
I think you're really underselling how smart six intelligence is. It's smart enough that you can play it as a PC, which means that the creature can make decisions and think about stuff. Such a creature obviously isn't really smart, but it's good enough for any purpose you can think of. At the very least, such a creature should be more than capable of being ordered around. And, of course, you can always pick a raven and leave behind any language lag.



Speaking of which, I don't suppose you've ever come across any official guidelines for how intelligent a conversation you can have while using 'speak with animals' or 'speak with plants'?
Can't say as I have, no.


There are a lot of buffing spells other than animal growth... the ones I mentioned were just examples. Even so, these are all the same issues you would have with other types of improved companions, like exalted companions, but you get the benefits too, without having to use a valuable feat for it.
But what buff spells? I can't think of much that would actually be worth it. Using spells like heart of water would be reasonable, I suppose, adding defenses, but I don't think that adding defenses is even a place you want to be with a companion.


I'd say a 6 is a 'hulk smash' level of int.
Again, you can say that, but I don't think there's much support for it. Such a being would be quite dumb, but we're only talking about a -2 modifier here. It's not a massive thing. The familiar wouldn't be any more dumb to the point of lacking comprehension than a 14 intelligence character would be hyper-intelligent.


That's why for melee you'd normally focus on getting more attacks (haste, rapidstrike) then use other types of damage, like energy damage and so on, at least until more powerful magic comes into play. The dex works great for finessable attacks.
It's not the absolute worst plan, but it doesn't seem like it ascends to anywhere near good in terms of actual combat competence.



The Fleshraker is a bit of an anomaly because it's simply too good, to the point where it's superior to every other companion at least until level 16 or even further.
I don't necessarily agree with that one. The magebred brown bear and ghost tiger at seventh are pretty comparable to the fleshraker, and maybe even a bit better because you're just getting really big hits, and the dire tortoise is really sweet at tenth, albeit in a somewhat different way. Granted, that comparison becomes less late companion favorable when you pull venomfire into it, but that seems more like spell ridiculousness than companion ridiculousness to me.

[Bronk]

I think you're really underselling how smart six intelligence is. It's smart enough that you can play it as a PC, which means that the creature can make decisions and think about stuff. Such a creature obviously isn't really smart, but it's good enough for any purpose you can think of. At the very least, such a creature should be more than capable of being ordered around. And, of course, you can always pick a raven and leave behind any language lag.

Again, you can say that, but I don't think there's much support for it. Such a being would be quite dumb, but we're only talking about a -2 modifier here. It's not a massive thing. The familiar wouldn't be any more dumb to the point of lacking comprehension than a 14 intelligence character would be hyper-intelligent.


I'm talking role-playing-wise here, and by hulk, I mean ogre. Ogres are 6 int, and described as barely smart enough to use a bow. When you talk to one, you expect very little, and in that sense there is a big difference between 6 int and the well above average 14.

That's why I'm so interested in finding references to using 'speak with animals' and 'speak with plants'... you can have a regular conversation with a 'dumb' animal or a mindless plant, but do the groups talk to each other when the druid isn't around?

[eggynack]

I'm talking role-playing-wise here, and by hulk, I mean ogre. Ogres are 6 int, and described as barely smart enough to use a bow. When you talk to one, you expect very little, and in that sense there is a big difference between 6 int and the well above average 14.
You wouldn't expect a really in depth conversation about a controversial issue in local politics that occurred recently, which you could out of a 14, but most of the mechanical benefits hold the same, like the ability to give complex orders, or receive scouting information, or influence character selections. On the role-play side of things, a low intelligence can be as big of an asset as a high intelligence by my reckoning, or maybe even more of one if you already have the high intelligence side covered. If you're controlling both characters then getting some good contrast going is helpful.


That's why I'm so interested in finding references to using 'speak with animals' and 'speak with plants'... you can have a regular conversation with a 'dumb' animal or a mindless plant, but do the groups talk to each other when the druid isn't around?
My impression is that, especially with plants, the information given is practically handed out by proxy. Like, the plants act as though they have been aware, and give information on that basis, but they weren't aware before that. I imagine it like a magical pseudo-intelligence, but I don't really have much support for that idea, or any other.