OOTS #982 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lissou

2015-05-04, 06:07 AM

Teehee. I like the joke. And obviously, I'm curious what Durkula is up to. Poor Roy, trying to make them more discreet and accomplishing the opposite... I can almost hear his sigh in the last panel (of course, difficult to hear anything other than the bagpipes).

EDIT:

Since the priests of Hoder are wearing blindfolds, Durkula won't be able to dominate any of them since he can't gaze into their eyes. I wonder if that's going to be a significant factor here.

That was my first thought too, when I saw them blindfolded. I mean, I guess they can't tell Durkon is a vampire, either, and if the previous place was anything to go by, if they could, they could warn Roy since his Knowledge(Vampires) seems pretty low. But no dominating is good.

If Durkula learns to change his voice like Malack did though, he'll be even less distinguishable from Durkon. That's bad.

I also wonder what will stop the resurrection. Since Durkon is bringing destruction posthumously... well, come to think of it, it only means he died once, not that he wasn't resurrected, but I interpreted it as him going there while dead.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-04, 06:11 AM

Heh, nicely done. I can't wait to see what the High Priest's game is. Or rather, Hel's game.

Carl

2015-05-04, 06:12 AM

The High Priest of Hel using Durkons lungs for the first time is funnier than it should be. :smallsmile:

This so much, just so much, made me chuckle massively. Also what's the devil upto now?

Sakgeres

2015-05-04, 06:14 AM

It seems Durkon is shouting: BEWAARE!! BEWAARRREEEEE!! :smallbiggrin:

Starwulf

2015-05-04, 06:19 AM

I have to say, I am at a complete loss as to how Durkola can turn this to his benefit. I mean, if he gets raised, wouldn't the HPoH be kicked out of Durkons body and Durkon be in full control again? Or will the HPoH somehow remain in control even after the resurrection, and perhaps whatever evilness he has planned require him to be alive in order to carry it out? Maybe some ritual that requires the soul of the caster and he'll just use Durkons soul instead of his own?

Dandria

2015-05-04, 06:19 AM

I guess the clerics being blind will turn out to be a problem for a vampire who really likes to solve his problems through Dominate.

fishboy

2015-05-04, 06:22 AM

I absolutely LOVE Durkons face in the second to last panel. Almost "Calvin-and-Hobbesian" :smallbiggrin:

Keltest

2015-05-04, 06:25 AM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Svinary

2015-05-04, 06:42 AM

I can only assume he needs to be at a specific temple to work his villainous ploy, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell Durkula is up to...

Umm, how about the temple of Hel? It would be a bad idea for HPoH to go there on his own, but he can trick Roy into "escorting" him there. He just have to convince him that this is the only way to resurrect him.

Grey Watcher

2015-05-04, 06:44 AM

You do know that I'm imagining the HPoH's attempt at breathing somehow comes out to the tune of "Amazing Grace", don't you?

Jaxzan Proditor

2015-05-04, 06:44 AM

Well, that's interesting. I wonder what The High Priest of Hel is up to now. Also, I love the adorable little gnomes.
Edit: Also, this absolutely:

You do know that I'm imagining the HPoH's attempt at breathing somehow comes out to the tune of "Amazing Grace", don't you?

Keltest

2015-05-04, 06:46 AM

Vladier

2015-05-04, 06:47 AM

Grey Watcher

2015-05-04, 06:49 AM

Umm, how about the temple of Hel? It would be a bad idea for HPoH to go there on his own, but he can trick Roy into "escorting" him there. He just have to convince him that this is the only way to resurrect him.

Except Word of Giant is that there is no Temple of Hel. When Durkon said "yeah, but no one worships her", that was, apparently, not hyperbole.

Now, the only question is, will Jasdoif get here with a link to the quote before I can come back and edit it into this post?

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371274-OOTS-962-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18092785#post18092785

(Yes! I won the race, even if the original post got ninja'd!)

Keltest

2015-05-04, 06:49 AM

Apparently Roy doesn't know that Durkon's score on Knowledge (Religion) approaches zero or he would know that Durkon can't know about the reason for the blindfolds. Also, I want an audiobook of this comic just to hear the High Priest of Hel breathing for the first time in his existance.

Anyone can get a lucky roll. Theyre back in the north, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for Durkon to know a basic fact about his own pantheon.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-04, 06:50 AM

Apparently Roy doesn't know that Durkon's score on Knowledge (Religion) approaches zero or he would know that Durkon can't know about the reason for the blindfolds. Also, I want an audiobook of this comic just to hear the High Priest of Hel breathing for the first time in his existance.

That's the natural next step to the Transcription of the Comic, but something that may never come into existance...

Quild

2015-05-04, 06:51 AM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Nice catch, missed it.

I don't get why Roy wants to avoid Durkon to be spotted as a vampire by those clerics. That wasn't a problem with the last ones. Or perhaps to avoid another "undead are bad" cliché?

I love HPoH's face on second panel :D

Stabbey

2015-05-04, 06:52 AM

Ah ha ha... the expression on Roy's face is a classic.

The High Priest of Hel has never breathed before, so of course he gets it wrong. I wonder if that'll start the inklings of some kind of suspicion for Roy.

Grey Watcher

2015-05-04, 06:53 AM

I don't get why Roy wants to avoid Durkon to be spotted as a vampire by those clerics. That wasn't a problem with the last ones. Or perhaps to avoid another "undead are bad" cliché?

I think that's exactly it.

CaDzilla

2015-05-04, 06:56 AM

Heh, now Durkon's natural voice has become so Scottish, that it's been replaced by a bagpipe. Also:http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/905983-feels

Metahuman1

2015-05-04, 06:56 AM

Ok, I liked this particular strip at the end only cause of the Bagpipe Jokes, and the fact that it actually DOES give me some hope that HPOH's plan is about to go straight belly up.

Cause I hate this character and plot line and want it over and sooner is better.

BowStreetRunner

2015-05-04, 06:59 AM

I wonder if the sound he is producing is anything like a Death Rattle.

Svinary

2015-05-04, 07:03 AM

Except Word of Giant is that there is no Temple of Hel. When Durkon said "yeah, but no one worships her", that was, apparently, not hyperbole.

Now, the only question is, will Jasdoif get here with a link to the quote before I can come back and edit it into this post?

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?371274-OOTS-962-The-Discussion-Thread&p=18092785#post18092785

(Yes! I won the race, even if the original post got ninja'd!)

Oh, I see. I hadn't noticed that, thanks.

Hel has exactly 1 worshipper: Durkon. I highly doubt he built a temple since they got there.

No need to be sarcastic, y'know?

JSSheridan

2015-05-04, 07:04 AM

Thanks Giant!

Brendanicus

2015-05-04, 07:08 AM

I love the quickness that we have gone from Crystal's super serious plotline to this. It makes the bagpiping all the more funny IMHO.

Mike Havran

2015-05-04, 07:16 AM

That was hilarious :smallbiggrin:

Sarbos

2015-05-04, 07:17 AM

Since the priests of Hoder are wearing blindfolds, Durkula won't be able to dominate any of them since he can't gaze into their eyes. I wonder if that's going to be a significant factor here.

Interesting option! :smallamused:

Lissou

2015-05-04, 07:21 AM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Oh, hey, I didn't notice that. That makes sense: we've seen they're technologically oriented, so it's reflected in their prosthetics. More difficult to hide a wand there though I suspect!

b_jonas

2015-05-04, 07:23 AM

Antonok

2015-05-04, 07:25 AM

Nice comic.

Small typo though I think, Durkon says impovisational in panel 3. Think it's missing an R.

Steveio

2015-05-04, 07:32 AM

And a art error (I think?): Roy's arm in panel 2 is layered over his pauldron.

Sarbos

2015-05-04, 07:36 AM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Yep! Why they didn't regenerate it? :smalleek:

And a art error (I think?): Roy's arm in panel 2 is layered over his pauldron.

Yes! It seems Giant made a mistake (god forbid!).

By the way... I love the "poke! poke!" :smallbiggrin:

137beth

2015-05-04, 07:40 AM

So in addition to lacking the knowledge of how humanoids learn, HPoH also lacks basic physical skills.
Although if the gnomes have sufficiently high wisdom to cast resurrection, then at least one of them might be able to figure out what is going on...

kivzirrum

2015-05-04, 07:51 AM

This is a silly comic, and I mean that as the highest compliment. It made me break out in giggles at work. A nice respite after the seriousness of the last run of strips (and what I can only imagine lies ahead).

warmachine

2015-05-04, 07:54 AM

I wonder if Roy will work out that Durkon should know how to consciously breathe even if his autonomous function no longer work, and that something must therefore be wrong.

Breccia

2015-05-04, 07:58 AM

"BEWAAAAAARE"...or, close enough. I am looking forward to this subplot!

EDIT: Also, loving Durkula's expression during "poke poke". It's little details like that that make this strip so great.

Person_Man

2015-05-04, 08:05 AM

I absolutely love the direction of the comic and every other character in it, but really hope that Durkula gets resurrected soon, or at the very least, unchained from his evil domination. (Soulbinding? Spirit Keeping? Not sure what its called).

I want to root for Durkon's success, not wait endlessly for his "sudden but inevitable betrayal." Plus V also has her soul-pact thing with Evil trio. How many Evil sleeper/double agents does one party need?

Of course, I have exactly 0 successful novels/stories/etc published, so who am I to criticize. Just my opinion as a fan.

jidasfire

2015-05-04, 08:08 AM

Oh, I get it now! He's a vampire, so he can't enter a house unless he's invited. If Roy takes him to the temple and pays for a resurrection, he will be considered Roy's companion and the priests will invite him to the temple, so he can enter freely.

I think you may be on to something here. It fits with my own theory that Hel is going to have her priest commit a whole swath of fangpoint conversions to their faith. Having access to the churches themselves would be a good way to do this. The only thing I can't quite figure out is how Durkula plans to get out of being resurrected if someone does agree to do it. A domination might work once or twice, but eventually Roy would get suspicious.

Commander672

2015-05-04, 08:11 AM

That was quite possibly the funniest thing I've seen all month.

Gift Jeraff

2015-05-04, 08:13 AM

Oh yeah, Durkon's like a vampire or something now.

I found Rich's choice of smiley funnier than the actual comic.

CoffeeIncluded

2015-05-04, 08:14 AM

That can't be the only reason he's going to all the temples.

canpinter

2015-05-04, 08:16 AM

i love the "i really want to kill you" look on his face when roys poking him

TurboGhast

2015-05-04, 08:17 AM

I think you may be on to something here. It fits with my own theory that Hel is going to have her priest commit a whole swath of fangpoint conversions to their faith. Having access to the churches themselves would be a good way to do this. The only thing I can't quite figure out is how Durkula plans to get out of being resurrected if someone does agree to do it. A domination might work once or twice, but eventually Roy would get suspicious.

Hel would only need one fangpoint conversion from HpOH at minimum, since the person converted can just convert others. Probably more for backup, but her plan only needs HpOH to act one.

Lordchoculla

2015-05-04, 08:18 AM

New comic is up.

Totally made me crack up laughing. Thanks yet agaian mr Giant. :smallsmile:

A thought, though... if Roy was able to remember how bad Durkon's lore skille were, then the vampire's response should or maybe ought to make him suspicious.... knowledge about another deity (Hodor)? Wonder if that will play a role later, when the dwarf realm has been invaded/destoryed by somehting coming from Durkon.

Incidentally, Durkon's old priest predicted that Durkon would somehow bring doom to the dwarf kingdom. This was the entire reason why Durkon was thrown out in the first place - however, if he had not been thrown out, then the dwarf realm would probably not be destroyed by Durkon's hand. Oh well. Can't get them all right. This will be spot on though - talk anout a self-fulfilling prophecy!

hamishspence

2015-05-04, 08:23 AM

Yes! It seems Giant made a mistake (god forbid!).

Also - shouldn't it be "improvisational theater" rather than "impovisational theater"?

Still a hilarious strip though.

Hamiltonz

2015-05-04, 08:29 AM

ty Giant :)

Lordchoculla

2015-05-04, 08:29 AM

Also - shouldn't it be "improvisational theater" rather than "impovisational theater"?

Still a hilarious strip though.

.... could be a play on "impoverished"?

Tiri

2015-05-04, 08:30 AM

Can't he just use Durkon's memories of how he used to breathe? Not that Durkon would remind him.

Angelalex242

2015-05-04, 08:38 AM

Doesn't look like Roy's suspicious though. Just...exasperated.

Psyren

2015-05-04, 08:39 AM

Oh, I get it now! He's a vampire, so he can't enter a house unless he's invited. If Roy takes him to the temple and pays for a resurrection, he will be considered Roy's companion and the priests will invite him to the temple, so he can enter freely.

Worse, they pretty much invite him in on sight as a result. "Hello! Welcome to the Shrine of Hoder!"

Ivrytwr

2015-05-04, 08:45 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-04, 08:45 AM

Worse, they pretty much invite him in on sight as a result. "Hello! Welcome to the Shrine of Hoder!"

Did anyone else think: Hoder! Hoder hoder! When they read the name of the temple?

snowblizz

2015-05-04, 08:48 AM

And a art error (I think?): Roy's arm in panel 2 is layered over his pauldron.

Yup. And there's a second one in panel 4 with HPOH arm over his pauldron.

kivzirrum

2015-05-04, 08:53 AM

Kind of worried about Roy being so oblivious to the evil sitting next to him.
Bagpipe breathing ... always a riot.
Not sure why Roy is worried about the clerics discovering only one of them is breathing?

But who doesn't love a good face-palm!
Thanks, Giant.

The impression I got was that it's because he doesn't want them freaking out that the buddy he has with him is an evil vampire, like the last clerics he went to who tried to warn him about it.

YossarianLives

2015-05-04, 08:57 AM

Did anyone read that as "The Shrine of Hodor" at first?

Chad30

2015-05-04, 08:57 AM

This is what always bugged me about Vampires, or any undead that's capable of speech. You have to pass air through your vocal chords in order to speak. A Vampire may not need to breathe to survive, but if it talks on a regular basis, it knows how to breathe. This kind of thing came up in the Buffy/Angel series too, and it's a pet peeve of mine. Even zombies know how to breathe, because they're always making gurgling/growling noises.

It puts a crack in my willing suspension of disbelief when an undead guy talks all the time, but then tells living people that they don't breathe.

Shining Wrath

2015-05-04, 08:57 AM

All we Scots are now entitled to exact a terrible vengeance for comparing the sounds of a vampire pretending to breath to bagpipes. You, Mr. Burlew, are on notice. You may get ... kilt. :smallbiggrin:

We now know that the HPoH wants to get into a temple. Why? That's probably the next shoe to drop, which the gnomes will hear. Once their feels recover from taking a critical.

We're also seeing Evil in action here; taking advantage of the gentle goodness of the gnomes. A more clever Evil than Crystal's, and therefore much more likely to not have a volcano experience anytime soon.

Shining Wrath

2015-05-04, 09:01 AM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Good catch. I wonder if that's a Chekov's foot, or just flavor?

THE CLERIC HAS A WOODEN LEG. DURKULA SHALL BE STAKED!

Or maybe not.

dethkruzer

2015-05-04, 09:11 AM

now I'm kinda curious as to what a "BWEAAAAAR" actually sounds like.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-04, 09:12 AM

Did anyone read that as "The Shrine of Hodor" at first?

Did anyone else think: Hoder! Hoder hoder! When they read the name of the temple?

Yes. Yes I did.

Shining Wrath

2015-05-04, 09:13 AM

LordRahl6

2015-05-04, 09:17 AM

Yes. Yes I did.

Almost, but it slipped by me until I got to this page.:smallwink:

Anyone for the Gnomes taking hearing damage.:smallamused:

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-04, 09:18 AM

Almost, but it slipped by me until I got to this page.:smallwink:

Anyone for the Gnomes taking hearing damage.:smallamused:

Then they'd be blind AND deaf. :smallfrown: And ones missing a leg. Those poor priests...

Ted The Bug

2015-05-04, 09:19 AM

"Feels" as a noun.

*sigh*

Fishman

2015-05-04, 09:22 AM

Oh, I get it now! He's a vampire, so he can't enter a house unless he's invited. If Roy takes him to the temple and pays for a resurrection, he will be considered Roy's companion and the priests will invite him to the temple, so he can enter freely.
Actually, this only applies to residences. A shrine would be a business, and businesses by their nature extend an open invitation implicitly.

Gift Jeraff

2015-05-04, 09:23 AM

Rakoa

2015-05-04, 09:28 AM

Anarion

2015-05-04, 09:37 AM

The sighing icon for this thread title is especially appropriate. At least this explains why Roy and Durkon missed all the commotion in town.

I'm also surprised the vampire is explaining his plans to Durkon. He must be bored.

Shining Wrath

2015-05-04, 09:38 AM

To add to what Gift Jeraff said, this is also the reason that the speech bubbles of undead differ from the living. A voice produced supernaturally via negative energy, rather than plain old lungs 'n air, sounds completely alien. Roy also mentioned (directly in this strip, even) that Durkon's voice is now produced supernaturally.

We are free to imagine what the effect is in terms of pitch, timbre, and other effects.

As a bass, I dislike the trope that bag guys have deep voices (I do a fine Darth Vader ...). So what I'd prefer is a crudity of diction; the magic that allows thought to be translated into audible vibrations in the air does not shape the syllables and words with the same skill as a proficient craftsman. Unless the undead practices ... like Malack.

SaintRidley

2015-05-04, 09:48 AM

Gnome priests of Hoder, I too am hit in the feels by bagpipe dirges.

Lissou

2015-05-04, 09:50 AM

I thought of Hodor too.

Yep! Why they didn't regenerate it? :smalleek:

Maybe they didn't feel it was worth wasting a spell when they have the technology available? Or maybe for the same reason they work with blindfolds: they believe in living with disabilities rather than "fixing"them? As priests, that is. If they don't heal their clients, that could be pretty bad.

Also possible nobody's high enough level yet at the temple?

Yup. And there's a second one in panel 4 with HPOH arm over his pauldron.

Er... I don't see it. I think you're mistaking strands of his beard for his arm.

t209

2015-05-04, 09:52 AM

This is like Superior Spiderman but better.
Now,
Parker Industries is bombed by a villain. :smallannoyed: Nice one, Slott; unless you're planning a storyline on lawsuit.

Tentreto

2015-05-04, 09:52 AM

Wonder if there's going to be some shrine robbing on Durkon's part.

Crusher

2015-05-04, 09:55 AM

Hee. I liked it a lot as a palate cleanser from the last arc.

GAAD

2015-05-04, 09:58 AM

Chain time!

Gwooooooooooooooooooooooooooof

GreatWyrmGold

2015-05-04, 10:07 AM

...Is there any way to compliment Rich on how quickly the strip is moving without breaking the rules about discussing the update schedule? Because I really want to compliment him on that.

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.
I'd also like to compliment him on his attention to detail.

I also wonder what will stop the resurrection. Since Durkon is bringing destruction posthumously... well, come to think of it, it only means he died once, not that he wasn't resurrected, but I interpreted it as him going there while dead.
Also, Durkula and Hel wouldn't thrilled about Durkon coming back.

Ah ha ha... the expression on Roy's face is a classic.
Weird to see it when only Durkon's around.
I wonder if that'll tip him off that Durkon isn't Durkon.

Yep! Why they didn't regenerate it? :smalleek:
Because mechanical feet are cool! I give it even odds the priest got the prosthetic during her teenaged rebellious years.

kivzirrum

2015-05-04, 10:14 AM

Katuko

2015-05-04, 10:16 AM

It puts a crack in my willing suspension of disbelief when an undead guy talks all the time, but then tells living people that they don't breathe.

They should know how to breathe, and use it for talking, but they don't need to breathe because their bodies are running on supernatural energy; no longer reliant on getting oxygen into their bloodstream.

I agree that they should be able to fake normal breathing, though, unless the strange voice is a direct result of them "forgetting" how to make the air pass naturally.

Murk

2015-05-04, 11:00 AM

Hm.
I suspect the ploy is that Durkon, for some reason, can't be resurrected by these temples - and knows so. However, he does know he can be resurrected by some Dwarven High Priest in his homeland!
"We only have to make a short stop in the Dwarven lands, Roy!" - and the entire Order will safely escort him to the exact location where he should be for his plan.
Now, I don't know why Durkon is so sure none of the gnomes can resurrect him, but he probably has it all figured out.

On a side note, this makes me wonder if the vampire is aware of Durkons prophecy. Does he know that Durkon will only go home posthumously?

snowblizz

2015-05-04, 11:06 AM

Er... I don't see it. I think you're mistaking strands of his beard for his arm.

I was not mistaken (though it was hard to catch due to the beard, the thick solid line of the pauldron was clearly under the arm graphic), but how am I gonna prove that now that the comic has been updated and fixed? The spelling error was also fixed.

Just mentioning this for everyone else coming along and not seeing art errors we've previously mentioned. They are fixed.

unbeliever536

2015-05-04, 11:08 AM

They should know how to breathe, and use it for talking, but they don't need to breathe because their bodies are running on supernatural energy; no longer reliant on getting oxygen into their bloodstream.

I agree that they should be able to fake normal breathing, though, unless the strange voice is a direct result of them "forgetting" how to make the air pass naturally.

Well, in this case, it would be "never figuring it out", since the vampire is a fresh soul created by the vampirization process.

Lissou

2015-05-04, 11:23 AM

I was not mistaken (though it was hard to catch due to the beard, the thick solid line of the pauldron was clearly under the arm graphic), but how am I gonna prove that now that the comic has been updated and fixed? The spelling error was also fixed.

Just mentioning this for everyone else coming along and not seeing art errors we've previously mentioned. They are fixed.

For the record, the other two mistakes were still there when I checked. Of course that doesn't mean I didn't see it wrong. It's a moot point now, at any rate.

Falbrogna

2015-05-04, 11:39 AM

*groan*

And now even Oots use "feels" instead of the proper "feelings".

*groan*

kivzirrum

2015-05-04, 11:44 AM

*groan*

And now even Oots use "feels" instead of the proper "feelings".

*groan*

It's just a colloquial phrase--it's not formal, strictly speaking, but there's nothing wrong with it. The comic is peppered with colloquialisms, as is most speech.

Spanish_Paladin

2015-05-04, 11:45 AM

There is one gnome without a hat!! :smalleek:

Mr_Scruffy_Kilz

2015-05-04, 11:55 AM

Umm, how about the temple of Hel? It would be a bad idea for HPoH to go there on his own, but he can trick Roy into "escorting" him there. He just have to convince him that this is the only way to resurrect him.

There are no Temples of Hel. To have Temples, one must have priests/clerics, which the HPoH is the first of, or at least worshipers. It was said over 200 strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), 245 strips to be precise, that Hel has no worshipers, let alone priests/clerics, which means there is no one to have built and/or dedicated a temple to her.

Ok, I liked this particular strip at the end only cause of the Bagpipe Jokes, and the fact that it actually DOES give me some hope that HPOH's plan is about to go straight belly up.
Cause I hate this character and plot line and want it over and sooner is better.

I agree, Durkoff has been far too lucky with his ruse, V, Haley, and Roy all have high enough mental scores, and Elan is far too genre savvy, this farce should have ended the first time Belkar mentioned anything and added a circumstance bonus to all the rolls.

TerrickTerran

2015-05-04, 11:56 AM

That last panel was fantastic. Best laugh I've had from the comic in a long while.:smallbiggrin:

Mith

2015-05-04, 11:58 AM

HPoH can play bagpipes when ever he wants by breathing! Man, he should take a level in Bard to truly capitalize on his newfound musical potential! I am jealous!

Also, that's probably why vampires are so feared. They can play instant bagpipes. :smallbiggrin:

Velazquez

2015-05-04, 12:04 PM

It is higly possible that the visit of the vampire in the shrine will end up in a massacre.:smalleek:The question resting is if the other OOTS will notice and then how things will evolve.:smallconfused:

ti'esar

2015-05-04, 12:19 PM

I know I should be trying to speculate on what exactly the HPoH's plan is (and how he's going to get it past Roy), but I just cannot stop laughing. This was one of the funniest comics in a long time - and some of the comics in the Crystal chase scene were pretty funny, so that's saying something.

Mr_Scruffy_Kilz

2015-05-04, 12:23 PM

Can't he just use Durkon's memories of how he used to breathe? Not that Durkon would remind him.

Durkon could just navigate him to a memory of trying to breath water, or slime, or sand, or some other 'breathing' memory that will inconvenience Durkoff. Durkon now knows he can pick and choose which related memories to give, and Durkoff has to put up with them... an endless loop of breathing sand, breathing water, breathing slime, breathing fire, maybe with a bit of order shuffling, would either force Durkoff to stand perfectly still and useless, or yield to doing something dumb... like this.

Halghare

2015-05-04, 12:23 PM

It's just a colloquial phrase--it's not formal, strictly speaking, but there's nothing wrong with it. The comic is peppered with colloquialisms, as is most speech.

It's a colloquial phrase the world could do without. The proper word is "feelings". "Feels" are what causes restraining orders.

Keltest

2015-05-04, 12:30 PM

Durkon could just navigate him to a memory of trying to breath water, or slime, or sand, or some other 'breathing' memory that will inconvenience Durkoff. Durkon now knows he can pick and choose which related memories to give, and Durkoff has to put up with them... an endless loop of breathing sand, breathing water, breathing slime, breathing fire, maybe with a bit of order shuffling, would either force Durkoff to stand perfectly still and useless, or yield to doing something dumb... like this.

As the HPOH pointed out earlier, trying to stall him by feeding him a ton of memories doesn't work. He has however long it takes to get to the useful air breathing memories.

Gift Jeraff

2015-05-04, 12:31 PM

It's a colloquial phrase the world could do without. The proper word is "feelings". "Feels" are what causes restraining orders.

All speech besides caveman grunts are colloquial phrases the world could do without.

Keltest

2015-05-04, 12:31 PM

It's a colloquial phrase the world could do without. The proper word is "feelings". "Feels" are what causes restraining orders.

I don't mind it so much when its used for a gag. The whole point is that its a silly thing to say. If a character (say, Belkar) used it in a serious sentence, I would be very tempted to drive down to Philly and give the Giant a good shake myself.

Mr_Scruffy_Kilz

2015-05-04, 01:01 PM

As the HPOH pointed out earlier, trying to stall him by feeding him a ton of memories doesn't work. He has however long it takes to get to the useful air breathing memories.

And then we saw that that was a lie, that it does work. Durkoff was lying, and it was because before Durkon was trying to fight the compulsion to give a related memory, but if the memory is related yet unhelpful, Durkon can choose it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html), which Durkon has learned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), and Durkoff doesn't get to stop the memories, Durkon has to do it for him. Durkoff may not really be lulled into oblivion, but the difference is that since Durkon can give ANY related memory, he can now cycle through related but USELESS memories, and eventually those will build up and cause real time to pass.

Porthos

2015-05-04, 01:02 PM

FlawedParadigm

2015-05-04, 01:04 PM

I note Roy's sword hilt now has cross-grip patterning. When did that start?

ti'esar

2015-05-04, 01:04 PM

Ah, I knew the "feels" line in this comic would draw the tears of linguistic prescriptivists. They are like a fine wine to me.

Keltest

2015-05-04, 01:05 PM

And then we saw that that was a lie, that it does work. Durkoff was lying, and it was because before Durkon was trying to fight the compulsion to give a related memory, but if the memory is related yet unhelpful, Durkon can choose it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html), which Durkon has learned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html), and Durkoff doesn't get to stop the memories, Durkon has to do it for him. Durkoff may not really be lulled into oblivion, but the difference is that since Durkon can give ANY related memory, he can now cycle through related but USELESS memories, and eventually those will build up and cause real time to pass.

The HPOH has said that isn't how it works. There is no contradicting evidence in the comic. At all. Ergo, he was telling the truth.

Mr_Scruffy_Kilz

2015-05-04, 01:09 PM

*looks up Hoder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Marvel_Comics_characters:_H#Hoder)/Höðr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Höðr)*
*sees what he is (in)famous for*

Hmmmmm. Being tricked by a figure of evil/mischief to do something horrible.

.....

I rather doubt that is a coincidence. :smallwink:

Funny thing is, this is the one Temple where HPoH should be welcome, since Hoder is the Companion of Hel... they worship Hel's boyfriend...

I want them to show up to the Temple of Tyr and suddenly Durkoff admits everything to Roy, because he can't lie and must act justly while on the grounds of Tyr's temple.

Mono Vertigo

2015-05-04, 01:09 PM

now I'm kinda curious as to what a "BWEAAAAAR" actually sounds like.

With my current throat infection, I can show you.
(Now this strip is out though, I should probably go try and convince my buddies I wasn't turned into a vampire during the holidays....)

Porthos

2015-05-04, 01:19 PM

Funny thing is, this is the one Temple where HPoH should be welcome, since Hoder is the Companion of Hel... they worship Hel's boyfriend...

If I'm right, all I want is something like this to happen:

*gnomes reflecting on what's just happened (whatever that is)*

"Dammit, not again"
"Yeah, why do we always get tricked like this! You'd think we'd see this coming a mile away after all the times this has happened."
*audible pause*
"Right.... Forget I said that."

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-04, 01:20 PM

Actually, this only applies to residences. A shrine would be a business, and businesses by their nature extend an open invitation implicitly.

The problem is that a shrine is pretty much by definition holy ground, which should stop HPoH cold at the edge.

ChillerInstinct

2015-05-04, 01:28 PM

I think I smell foreshadowing. This is a helpful little "early part of this particular book" reminder that vampires don't have to breathe... too helpful, methinks. A certain SOMEONE'S Oracle prediction mentioned that they'll be due to take their last breath by a date that, by all accounts and purposes, is getting quite close indeed. Not to mention, there's this little nugget about "being a vampire" and "avoiding the Big Fire below"... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), the former of which would be ironic as Hel and the latter of which might be in his best interest for the foreseeable future since his recent character development almost certainly hasn't outweighed his literal Kilonazis of evil in the Gods-know how many years before it...

Of course there's been so many fake-outs for him that this could easily be another one for the pile, but I've had this thought rattling about my skull since Durkon got vamped and this seems like too good of foreshadowing to pass up.

Onyavar

2015-05-04, 01:34 PM

I can only assume he needs to be at a specific temple to work his villainous ploy, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell Durkula is up to...

Since the priests of Hoder are wearing blindfolds, Durkula won't be able to dominate any of them since he can't gaze into their eyes. I wonder if that's going to be a significant factor here.

Yes. My pet theory so far had been that Durkon is trying to dominate as much of the local priests as he is able to. Then, as soon as the Mechane lifts off, we can see in a last panel: Tinkertown/Gnomeland is now overrun by vampires, dun dun dun.

Well, so much for that theory if Durkon is looking for BLIND priests specifically.

Oh, I get it now! He's a vampire, so he can't enter a house unless he's invited. If Roy takes him to the temple and pays for a resurrection, he will be considered Roy's companion and the priests will invite him to the temple, so he can enter freely.

Well, that could be. In that case, my general idea, see above, might be correct.

I think you may be on to something here. It fits with my own theory that Hel is going to have her priest commit a whole swath of fangpoint conversions to their faith. Having access to the churches themselves would be a good way to do this. The only thing I can't quite figure out is how Durkula plans to get out of being resurrected if someone does agree to do it. A domination might work once or twice, but eventually Roy would get suspicious.

Right. And since the high priest of Hodr probably knows resurrection (the other priests so far didn't!), the Highpriest might be in trouble. But he has a plan. My guess is that he is failing his breathing on purpose... ok, what IS his plan? I still can't figure it out.

Subzero008

2015-05-04, 01:36 PM

Relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF7FiVdYWPQ

Sermil

2015-05-04, 01:41 PM

Ahahaha! Bagpipes can set off a case of the feels in most people. Sometimes the feels is "Ahhh! It hurts my ears!" though...

+10 to you, sir. Almost as funny as the comic. And the comic was very funny.

ti'esar

2015-05-04, 01:43 PM

I actually like the sound of bagpipes...

Keltest

2015-05-04, 01:50 PM

I actually like the sound of bagpipes...

So do I. But then, I own a Kilt too.

An Enemy Spy

2015-05-04, 02:02 PM

As proven in Braveheart and Star Trek 2, bagpipes can be one of the most beautifully stirring instruments in the world. In the wrong(most, really) hands, it is an instrument of torture so perverse that it is classified as a war crime.

kivzirrum

2015-05-04, 02:10 PM

Ah, I knew the "feels" line in this comic would draw the tears of linguistic prescriptivists. They are like a fine wine to me.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who enjoys this vintage :smallwink:

Vinsfeld

2015-05-04, 02:19 PM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Nice catch! I read it like three times and didn't see it

Bulldog Psion

2015-05-04, 02:55 PM

It's really weird. Most of the comic flows very smoothly for me. But the strips focusing on Durk Malackssen are jarring, discordant, and not very enjoyable for me. Something always seems to be supremely awkward in them.

The "Go Hel! Know? Thor won't" strip was painfully bad IMO; the previous temple visit had a very contrived feel to the HPoH avoiding detection; and now this strip seems like an extremely unfunny attempt to funny. Or something.

Like I said, I enjoy most of the comic, but when I see Durk now, I'm starting to cringe inwardly a bit. And I wish that wasn't the case, because this "vampire arc" should be a chance for some dark but juicy character development. :smallfrown:

Bladewing2013

2015-05-04, 03:27 PM

why don't the use escalators to get to the temple, after all they have lava trash disposal. :confused:

Goosefarble

2015-05-04, 03:28 PM

I just noticed the one gnome priest has a mechanical foot.

Oh wow, I didn't catch that! Nice!

Also, does anyone think the two clerics in the final panel look hauntingly like Nale and Sabine?

Bladewing2013

2015-05-04, 03:31 PM

Oh wow, I didn't catch that! Nice!

Also, does anyone think the two clerics in the final panel look hauntingly like Nale and Sabine?
Dear lord. So true its scary.

Keltest

2015-05-04, 03:32 PM

Oh wow, I didn't catch that! Nice!

Also, does anyone think the two clerics in the final panel look hauntingly like Nale and Sabine?

The thought had occurred to me, however it struck me as unlikely that Sabine would just happen to be disguised as a gnome priest, and a blindfolded one at that.

Neoriceisgood

2015-05-04, 03:48 PM

Curious where this particular plot thread is going. :smallannoyed:

xroads

2015-05-04, 03:53 PM

Lol! Durkula's expression in the second to last panel nearly had me in stitches!

Durkula's attempt at breathing must be an example of what rolling a 1 on Performance is like. And I'm guessing the gnomes intepretation of his breathing as bagpipes must be what rolling a 1 on Perception is like. :smallbiggrin:

Jay R

2015-05-04, 03:55 PM

Worse, they pretty much invite him in on sight as a result.

Well, not exactly "on sight". But I get your meaning.

Goosefarble

2015-05-04, 04:06 PM

The thought had occurred to me, however it struck me as unlikely that Sabine would just happen to be disguised as a gnome priest, and a blindfolded one at that.

Well yeah, I doubt it's actually them, but it was an interesting little art choice.

unbeliever536

2015-05-04, 04:25 PM

I note Roy's sword hilt now has cross-grip patterning. When did that start?

I believe that's new as of the art shift in this book. Checking and... yep, just a green block in 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html), cross-stitch present when we see him again in 948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html).

blunk

2015-05-04, 04:33 PM

I suspect the ploy is that Durkon, for some reason, can't be resurrected by these temples - and knows so. However, he does know he can be resurrected by some Dwarven High Priest in his homeland!
"We only have to make a short stop in the Dwarven lands, Roy!" - and the entire Order will safely escort him to the exact location where he should be for his plan.My thoughts, too. Otherwise, he could just request that they make a stop in the Dwarven Lands when they're leaving Tinkertown, but Roy would be annoyed by the sudden delay, not to mention suspicious that Durkon didn't suggest this while they were in Tinkertown. But if Roy's pump is already primed for it, he'll sell it to the rest of the Order.

Hence the "improvisational theatre". And the foreshadowing that Durkon's driver can get all sorts of knowledge about the Dwarven Lands at will.

Edit to add: Hel doesn't necessarily have to know anything about Durkon's prophecy, especially if having him in the Dwarven Lands serves her purposes anyway. Maybe she just wants to lead an army of undead dwarves to the last gate for some reason.

RdMarquis

2015-05-04, 04:41 PM

That was hilarious, but the prospect of noise like that coming out of a person's body is a little unsettling. ^_^;

Gusion

2015-05-04, 04:46 PM

Curious where this particular plot thread is going. :smallannoyed:

Well, presumably Durkula wants to get inside the temple for whatever reason. Although previously established that resurrection spells do not need to take place inside of a temple, it is probably customary to do it there if it is nearby. D&D literature generally supports this.

What will Durkula do after getting into the temple's inner chamber? Nobody knows. I suspect the most popular guess is to somehow convert them into a Temple of Hel through somehow yet-to-be-seen method.

I think this strip is a cute laugh. It isn't the most interesting of threads for me though, since I have it established he will make it the dwarven lands "posthumously" - this is likely setup. I agree with whomever posted that the strip does establish vampires don't breathe - hence Belkar becoming a vampire would fulfill his prophecy too. I don't think that is the likely conclusion, but instead purposefully put out there by Rich for us to consider.

One Step Two

2015-05-04, 05:12 PM

*sigh* Thanks for making me guffaw loudly at work Giant.

Just when I was wondering how you could top the last comic, you had to go and give me this. Friggen amazing, every damn time.

Ron Miel

2015-05-04, 05:12 PM

Also, does anyone think the two clerics in the final panel look hauntingly like Nale and Sabine?

Reincarnation spell?

Maybe he will be known as Gnale from now on.

Watcher

2015-05-04, 05:28 PM

Aaaa! A temple to Hoder! I like the mistletoe bushes outside. The mythology geek in me is loving this page!
For those who might not know, Frigg took a vow from every material in the world to not harm Baldr, the most loved of the gods. She either forgot to get a vow from mistletoe or mistletoe refused, and when the gods were testing out the vows by throwing weapons at Baldr and watching them bounce off harmlessly, Loki fashioned a spear made of mistletoe and tricked Hoder into throwing it at him. Since he was blind, he didn't see what it was made out of, and Baldr was killed.

One Step Two

2015-05-04, 05:29 PM

dps

2015-05-04, 05:31 PM

I can only assume he needs to be at a specific temple to work his villainous ploy, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell Durkula is up to...

While others have guessed that the plan is for him to do a bit of conversion at fangpoint, my guess is that there is a particular artifact at a certain temple that Hel and her priest want to get their hands on.

Bulldog Psion

2015-05-04, 05:56 PM

Oh wow, I didn't catch that! Nice!

Also, does anyone think the two clerics in the final panel look hauntingly like Nale and Sabine?

I'm speechless with alarm here. :smalleek:

While I can't imagine it's them -- Nale is gone forever, I hope -- it looks like them in gnome form. Exactly. A blond guy with a pointy little goatee and a lady with the precise skin tone of Sabine, hanging out together. :smalleek:

Keltest

2015-05-04, 06:23 PM

Also, a thought occurs, HPoH, never having a corporeal body himself, which at this moment is just flesh animated by an evil spirit, might be accidentally sucking air into his stomach instead of his lungs. The sounds we're hearing are actually a string of belches resembling a bagpipe.

As far as I am aware, it is quite difficult to deliberately inhale any significant quantity of air through the stomach. It lacks the muscles capable of drawing the air in. He would have to basically be swallowing the air bubbles, which is not especially easy to confuse with breathing.

Leliel

2015-05-04, 06:33 PM

Ah! Mystery solved!

What mystery, you may ask?

Where Tarquin got the music for all of his weddings, Malack just had to breathe deeply.

Basement Cat

2015-05-04, 06:39 PM

It's interesting...I know that I've seen those two characters before. The tall black guy with the sword seems particularly familiar.

Maybe it'll come back to me. It feels like I haven't seen these people in a long, long time. Months, even. :smalltongue:

OT: We can't have the evil spirit possessing Durkon get dispelled or anything until he turns Belkar into a vampire. Durkula's plan won't prevail against the protagonists' plot armor.

Run, Durkula! Run! :smalleek:

EDIT: Among the pieces of evidence that Durkula isn't the real Durkon: Durkula has ranks in Religion!

dtilque

2015-05-04, 06:55 PM

While others have guessed that the plan is for him to do a bit of conversion at fangpoint, my guess is that there is a particular artifact at a certain temple that Hel and her priest want to get their hands on.

If he's looking for a particular object, you'd think it'd been foreshadowed by now. At the least we should have heard its name.

As far as I can remember, the only foreshadowing for what Durkula is looking for is in strip 968 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html), where it's some important piece of information that he's going to learn..

Bulldog Psion

2015-05-04, 07:27 PM

If he's looking for a particular object, you'd think it'd been foreshadowed by now. At the least we should have heard its name.

As far as I can remember, the only foreshadowing for what Durkula is looking for is in strip 968 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0968.html), where it's some important piece of information that he's going to learn..

I forgot how hilarious Elan's "Dun, dun DUN!" is in that strip. :smallbiggrin:

FlawedParadigm

2015-05-04, 07:40 PM

I believe that's new as of the art shift in this book. Checking and... yep, just a green block in 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html), cross-stitch present when we see him again in 948 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html).

Cool, only took me 34 strips to notice. I fail at art.

Origamite

2015-05-04, 07:52 PM

Well yeah, I doubt it's actually them, but it was an interesting little art choice.
She's the only hatless gnome we've seen so far. Art slip? Coincidence? ...maybe.

Rogar Demonblud

2015-05-04, 07:56 PM

We've seen a few with scarves or small hats, so maybe she's just wearing something akin to a yarmulke.

On the other hand, if she's wearing a blindfold, how can she see her hat on the floor after it falls off?

Turin_19

2015-05-04, 08:01 PM

Anybody else thought immediately of Belkar's 'last breath' prophecy right after reading the title?

Aleolus

2015-05-04, 08:01 PM

Ok, did anyone else realize that Durkula slipped up there? We know from several previous comics, including a recent one, that Durkon has a very low Knowledge (Religion) modifier. I mean, he didn't even know that Thor and Loki were enemies, yet now he knows the practices of one of the Gnome gods? Seems suspicious to me!

Keltest

2015-05-04, 08:11 PM

She's the only hatless gnome we've seen so far. Art slip? Coincidence? ...maybe.

We saw one other in the background of the establishing shot of Tinkertown.

ti'esar

2015-05-04, 08:44 PM

Also, does anyone think the two clerics in the final panel look hauntingly like Nale and Sabine?

Now I see it too. Surely just a coincidence, but a really weird one.

Edit:
Ok, did anyone else realize that Durkula slipped up there? We know from several previous comics, including a recent one, that Durkon has a very low Knowledge (Religion) modifier. I mean, he didn't even know that Thor and Loki were enemies, yet now he knows the practices of one of the Gnome gods? Seems suspicious to me!

Nice catch! Though Hoder, as a Norse god, is presumably part of the Northern Pantheon and not just a gnome deity, so it wouldn't be as implausible for Durkon to recognize him as all that.

Aleolus

2015-05-04, 10:44 PM

Jaxzan Proditor

2015-05-04, 11:03 PM

Cavenskull

2015-05-04, 11:52 PM

As far as I am aware, it is quite difficult to deliberately inhale any significant quantity of air through the stomach. It lacks the muscles capable of drawing the air in. He would have to basically be swallowing the air bubbles, which is not especially easy to confuse with breathing.
I can say from first-hand experience that is definitely possible to suck a significant quantity of air into the stomach. It's something I have done on several occasions, both as a crude gag, and as a way of relief when I need to burp to relieve stomach discomfort but don't have enough air in the stomach yet to burp naturally. It's true that the stomach doesn't have muscles capable of drawing air in, but neither do the lungs. Sucking air into the stomach relies on the diaphragm, just as the lungs do when breathing. The only thing that changes is that you have to will your epiglottis to shift as if you were swallowing. If done right, you're essentially closing off the passage to your lungs, so the air that's drawn in has nowhere to go except for the stomach. Once this is done, it becomes very easy to produce a sizable burp. It's possible to do this multiple times in succession to get more air in the stomach, though of course there's a limit to how much air can be sucked in before the stomach loses the ability to contain it.

I will say that even though this is possible, it is not something that would be confused for breathing. The air really needs to be sucked in through the mouth for the method to work. Just as breathing through the mouth sounds different than breathing through the nose, sucking air into the stomach sounds different than breathing through the mouth. And of course "exhaling" is going to require a burp, which obviously is a generally distinctive sound.

This lesson has been brought to you by Regrettable Knowledge™.

Onyavar

2015-05-05, 12:07 AM

My point still stands, the conflict between Thor and Loki is central to their faith, and he didn't know about it. Theoretically you could argue he may have put more ranks in it, but I find it unlikelySince that strip, Durkon has been shown to be more knowledgeable of the Northern Pantheon, especially when he is talking about Hel to Malack. I don't find it all that unlikely that he has put more ranks into Knowledge (Religion) or done something similar.

Also, Durkon might have concentrated on the more practical aspects of his own faith earlier. For example: In his hometown, there were temples of Odin, Thor, Freya and Hoder, but not of Loki. In that case, he would know all along that Hodor's priests wear blindfolds, and he might have asked why. No need to read up on how Hodors story ended, however.

That he simply added more ranks of knowledge (my religion) after the Hilgya incident, is also likely.

Even so, Roy didn't know of Durkon's failure. As we all know, Durkon's debriefing after the Nale desaster was very... short.
Durkon: "I don't want ta talk aboot it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html)"

And if Roy learned of it, we would have seen a "What? Durkon! That's exactly the reason why we need a priest in the team! Knowledge Religion is your class skill!!"

Thrillhouse

2015-05-05, 12:19 AM

So, based on a cursory reading of the mythology surrounding Hoder...this IS the temple Durkula wants, and something very, very bad is about to happen.

Baldur, a god of light and various other good things, was supposed to be invincible because Baldur's mother made all things swear not to harm him, except mistletoe because she felt it was insignificant. Loki tricks Hoder into firing a misteltoe arrow at Baldur to kill him.

Hel agrees to revive Baldur later on only if all things in the world, living or otherwise, agree to weep for him. Everything weeps except a giantess that refuses (believed to be Loki in disguise) so Baldur stays dead. (All this is based on Wikipedia so someone who has actually studied the subject may wish to jump in)

So, Hoder is likely the key to accessing a god-destroying weapon (maybe that's what the Snarl ACTUALLY is by design) and/or Hel's plan will result in everything on earth weeping forever. Maybe. This is speculation, after all, but Hoder being a god thay killed another god makes me think there's something there.

Onyavar

2015-05-05, 02:11 AM

HandofShadows

2015-05-05, 02:54 AM

Bagpipes. :smallbiggrin: Sooner or later Roy will catch on I hope.

ti'esar

2015-05-05, 03:05 AM

Or maybe we're reading too much into the mythology references (mistletoe, blindfolds). So far there are no clues towards the Northern Pantheon being the same as the Norse Sagas, except that the gods are called the same.

Rich stated that he chose Thor as a god that was a) different from the trademarked Forgotten Realm setting and b) easily recognizable as a powerful god. You know, so that he wouldn't have to make up a pantheon all by himself. And in this case, Rich needed a blind god for the northern pantheon.

So I'd assume that Norse mythology is only adopted into the Stickverse, if explicitly stated in the comic. (Especially since the myths of the world's creation are very different. There is lots of made-up stuff blended into the universe from different settings as well as the author's vast imagination.) "Real" mythology has probably little to do with OotS - though we fans love the shoutouts.

I don't know if there's too much to read into it in the first place. Like, the blindfolds and mistletoe are specific enough references that we can be pretty sure the Giant at least knows something about the mythological Hoder, even if it's just what he looked up on Wikipedia or something. And from there, it's easy to infer that there might at least be some thematic resonance intended with Hoder being a well-meaning god who was duped by evil forces. Anything beyond that might be going too far, but that much seems like it's not much of a leap.

Kareasint

2015-05-05, 05:38 AM

Bagpipes. :smallbiggrin: Sooner or later Roy will catch on I hope.

When I first read the strip, I got the impression that the HPoH does not know how to breath and pull the required knowledge from Durkon. This gives Durkon a chance to try and pass along a warning. However, we need to remember that Roy's Sense Motive skill is horrible.

Killer Angel

2015-05-05, 06:14 AM

Anybody else thought immediately of Belkar's 'last breath' prophecy right after reading the title?

Nope, sorry.

littlebum2002

2015-05-05, 07:37 AM

Do you know why bagpipers walk when they play? To get away from that awful noise.

Quild

2015-05-05, 08:38 AM

I actually like how bagpipe sounds.

Shining Wrath

2015-05-05, 08:56 AM

Do you know why bagpipers walk when they play? To get away from that awful noise.

Lord Lovat eventually became a brigadier and became the commander of the newly formed 1st Special Service Brigade in 1944. Lord Lovat's brigade was landed at Sword Beach during the invasion of Normandy on 6 June 1944. Lord Lovat reputedly waded ashore donning a white jumper under his battledress, with "Lovat" inscribed into the collar, while armed with a .45-70 Winchester underlever rifle. (The latter claim has not been verified and is disputed; however, in some earlier pictures y/1942 he is seen with a bolt-action .30-06 Winchester M70 sporting rifle).

Lord Lovat instructed his personal piper, Bill Millin, to pipe the commandos ashore, in defiance of specific orders not to allow such an action in battle.[13] When Private Millin demurred, citing the regulations, he recalled later, Lord Lovat replied: “Ah, but that’s the English War Office. You and I are both Scottish, and that doesn’t apply.”

At 13:30 the men at the bridges heard the sound of bagpipes, played by Bill Millin of the 1st Commando Brigade. As the commandos arrived they crossed the bridges and joined the rest of 6th Airborne Division defending the eastern side of the bridges. Some of the tanks accompanying the commandos moved into Bénouville to reinforce its defences while others crossed the bridges with the commandos.[83] At 15:00 a boat loaded with German infantry approached from Caen. It was engaged with the anti-tank gun manned by number One Platoon. It was hit in the stern by the second round fired and retreated back toward Caen.[84]

It appears that bagpipers walk forward so that enemy soldiers will run backwards, because sensible foes know better than to fight Scots.

kivzirrum

2015-05-05, 09:00 AM

I actually like how bagpipe sounds.

It's always amused me how most people hate bagpipes. I've always found them to be quite beautiful. Oh, well!

Bulldog Psion

2015-05-05, 09:05 AM

Mark me down as another bagpipe fan. :smallsmile:

JCAll

2015-05-05, 09:44 AM

It's always amused me how most people hate bagpipes. I've always found them to be quite beautiful. Oh, well!

Bagpipes played well sound beautiful. Someone LEARNING to play bagpipes well can strip the flesh from your bones.

Lissou

2015-05-05, 09:50 AM

Bagpipes played well sound beautiful. Someone LEARNING to play bagpipes well can strip the flesh from your bones.

Someone learning any instrument will test your patience, really. But every musician needs to start somewhere, and practicing silently isn't really an option.

Quild

2015-05-05, 09:58 AM

Someone learning any instrument will test your patience, really. But every musician needs to start somewhere, and practicing silently isn't really an option.

When my brother started playing drums, we bought him electronic drums so he could direct the sound to headphones. He still was noisy because of how hard he was hitting the damn thing.
Then he bought an amplifier.
Then replaced the drums by real ones because sometimes, just sometimes, my mother asked him to used the headphones while I was supposed to work. Asking him not to play was out of option, so...

I left home when he started guitar. For real.

goodpeople25

2015-05-05, 10:19 AM

Also like bagpipes here. :smallsmile:
Kinda sad that my former cadet squadron only had a piper for the first couple years i was there, we didn't get a new one. Still got to hear it at official parades though.

DavidBV

2015-05-05, 10:20 AM

A one-page strip!

I for one am loving the little details in Gnomeland, Giant. And somehow I get the feeling you're having a lot of fun with it as well :)

BenjCano

2015-05-05, 12:19 PM

Anyone else hear the name of the god the gnomes worship, Hoder, and think:

http://www.lesinrocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/hodor.jpg

kivzirrum

2015-05-05, 12:56 PM

Anyone else hear the name of the god the gnomes worship, Hoder, and think:

http://www.lesinrocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/hodor.jpg

You're definitely not alone. Me, I somehow never even realized how similar they are. Maybe because, as a mythology geek, I usually think of the alternate spelling, "Hoðr," which looks rather different on paper--or screen, as it were.

DavidSh

2015-05-05, 02:33 PM

Aaaa! A temple to Hoder! I like the mistletoe bushes outside. The mythology geek in me is loving this page!

Does mistletoe grow as independent bushes in OotS-world?
In the world I live in, mistletoe grows parasitically on trees.

Mad Humanist

2015-05-05, 03:12 PM

I note Roy's sword hilt now has cross-grip patterning. When did that start?
It also seems to me that the sword has fallen off Roy's back. That is really bothering me. I'm always checking I've got my keys in my pocket etc.

Keltest

2015-05-05, 03:22 PM

It also seems to me that the sword has fallen off Roy's back. That is really bothering me. I'm always checking I've got my keys in my pocket etc.

Obviously he decided that silly harness he has would restrict him from drawing the sword, so he took the whole thing off for when they inevitably get attacked by something.

Edhelras

2015-05-05, 03:24 PM

I can say from first-hand experience that is definitely possible to suck a significant quantity of air into the stomach. It's something I have done on several occasions, both as a crude gag, and as a way of relief when I need to burp to relieve stomach discomfort but don't have enough air in the stomach yet to burp naturally. It's true that the stomach doesn't have muscles capable of drawing air in, but neither do the lungs. Sucking air into the stomach relies on the diaphragm, just as the lungs do when breathing. The only thing that changes is that you have to will your epiglottis to shift as if you were swallowing. If done right, you're essentially closing off the passage to your lungs, so the air that's drawn in has nowhere to go except for the stomach. Once this is done, it becomes very easy to produce a sizable burp. It's possible to do this multiple times in succession to get more air in the stomach, though of course there's a limit to how much air can be sucked in before the stomach loses the ability to contain it.

I will say that even though this is possible, it is not something that would be confused for breathing. The air really needs to be sucked in through the mouth for the method to work. Just as breathing through the mouth sounds different than breathing through the nose, sucking air into the stomach sounds different than breathing through the mouth. And of course "exhaling" is going to require a burp, which obviously is a generally distinctive sound.

This lesson has been brought to you by Regrettable Knowledge™.

Thank you for sharing...... :smalleek:

Eugenitor

2015-05-05, 04:25 PM

I know that mechanical parts are cool and gnomish and all, but why would Roy entrust a Resurrection spell to a group that doesn't even cast Regenerate?

Snails

2015-05-05, 04:33 PM

I know that mechanical parts are cool and gnomish and all, but why would Roy entrust a Resurrection spell to a group that doesn't even cast Regenerate?

The big picture answer is that both Roy's quest and Roy's personal growth path requires trust.

Regarding the second, Roy is not truly tested until he has been badly burned and still stalwartly sticks to his new way of dealing with people. We (more or less) know Roy will get burned. The uncertainty of the details help keep it interesting.

DavidBV

2015-05-05, 04:36 PM

I know that mechanical parts are cool and gnomish and all, but why would Roy entrust a Resurrection spell to a group that doesn't even cast Regenerate?

Just because they didn't regenerate that gnome's leg, it doesn't mean they never cast Regenerate. There can be many different explanations accounting for that. Look at Redcloak's eye... or Right eye's eye.

Turin_19

2015-05-05, 05:38 PM

Nope, sorry.

Well, it happens :/ . I'll go back to sitting in the corner with everyone else who thought like me.

....

Ok, I'm back.

It seems to me that Hoder might really be a god-killing God and that's the use of Durkula.

Thrillhouse

2015-05-05, 06:14 PM

Or maybe we're reading too much into the mythology references (mistletoe, blindfolds). So far there are no clues towards the Northern Pantheon being the same as the Norse Sagas, except that the gods are called the same.

Rich stated that he chose Thor as a god that was a) different from the trademarked Forgotten Realm setting and b) easily recognizable as a powerful god. You know, so that he wouldn't have to make up a pantheon all by himself. And in this case, Rich needed a blind god for the northern pantheon.

So I'd assume that Norse mythology is only adopted into the Stickverse, if explicitly stated in the comic. (Especially since the myths of the world's creation are very different. There is lots of made-up stuff blended into the universe from different settings as well as the author's vast imagination.) "Real" mythology has probably little to do with OotS - though we fans love the shoutouts.

Yeah, I didn't think he would actually just fully re-enact the mythological story. But I suspect there would be some invokation of at least PART of it–particularly the weapon thing. Since this is a story that has a god-killing abomination, it would make sense to say that those stories are just reflections of what "really" happened or something along those lines.

Anyway, I suspect at minimum a Hoder-Snarl connection (especially since it's quite likely the origin story we got for the Snarl is bogus), or some kind of weapon.

EDIT: Alternatively, if Hoder killed Baldr...well, Roy is BALDER than Durkula...OH GOD NO!!!!

Ron Miel

2015-05-05, 06:21 PM

Just because they didn't regenerate that gnome's leg, it doesn't mean they never cast Regenerate. There can be many different explanations accounting for that. Look at Redcloak's eye... or Right eye's eye.

Maybe Gnomes like having bionic parts.

Maybe a religious observance. Their own god didn't/ couldn't have his eyes regenerated, so they don't have their missing parts regenerated.

Snails

2015-05-05, 07:17 PM

Yeah, I didn't think he would actually just fully re-enact the mythological story. But I suspect there would be some invokation of at least PART of it–particularly the weapon thing. Since this is a story that has a god-killing abomination, it would make sense to say that those stories are just reflections of what "really" happened or something along those lines.

On one hand, I agree that there could easily be a bit of borrowed inspiration here.

We have had enough hints that Hel intends to completely screw over Thor's followers, and perhaps the followers of many other Norse gods as well. So that implies some leverage point that is in the vicinity of the power scale of a god killing arrow.

On the other hand, I have my doubts because details of this importance would usually be hinted at already.

On the other other hand, apparently the easiest way to seize secret knowledge is to make someone a vampire.

ChillerInstinct

2015-05-05, 09:15 PM

I know that mechanical parts are cool and gnomish and all, but why would Roy entrust a Resurrection spell to a group that doesn't even cast Regenerate?

Sometimes the original isn't always the best, and depending on how advanced gnomish tech is, maybe the bionic leg has some functional improvements over the default.

Alternatively, and probably more realistically... is it possible for Regeneration to recover limbs that weren't actually on the body at birth? Like, if he was born without a functioning right leg, could that be fixed by healing magic? If not, that could easily explain the prosthetic under the circumstances.

Aaron L

2015-05-05, 09:22 PM

There's an extra layer of funny in this strip for me: one of the pieces of "evidence" against accused vampires in earlier centuries was that when the bodies were exhumed and a stake was driven into their chests, they would "moan", which was taken as proof that they were moaning in pain. Actually, it was just air and internal decomposition gasses being forced through their throats and vibrating their vocal cords, creating a rough sustained coughing noise that would have sounded pretty much like Durkon's Vampire trying to fake breathing. I did a research paper on the existence of vampires across various world cultures for a college preparatory program in high school and found out all kinds of interesting things about vampire-like mythological beings from around the world.

They were also known to "spit blood" as a retaliatory attack during their "execution", which was, of course, just rotten blood and decomposed material from the internal organs being forced out through the mouth when the chest was compressed; this was also variously understood as the vampire vomiting up "fresh blood" from its most recent feeding.

ackmondual

2015-05-05, 09:29 PM

One of those rare moments where I wish this strip had audio!

Lyracian

2015-05-06, 06:23 AM

The High Priest of Hel using Durkons lungs for the first time is funnier than it should be. :smallsmile:
Understanding the concept of breathing - Check
Practice application somewhat lacking!

That was a good way to cheer up my day.

Storm_Of_Snow

2015-05-06, 06:48 AM

Sometimes the original isn't always the best, and depending on how advanced gnomish tech is, maybe the bionic leg has some functional improvements over the default.

Alternatively, and probably more realistically... is it possible for Regeneration to recover limbs that weren't actually on the body at birth? Like, if he was born without a functioning right leg, could that be fixed by healing magic? If not, that could easily explain the prosthetic under the circumstances.
Could be, maybe there's some metaphysical limitation - say some form of body-shape - on spells like regeneration.

As another option, I created an amputee NPC for a campaign I may some day run, and I rationalised it as her being badly injured by a rockfall, her associates having to amputate her arm, and then cauterise the stump to stop her bleeding out. As with early edition Trolls, the fire damage prevents regeneration from working, even if the cauterised stump itself were to be amputated and a regeneration spell was then cast.

Quild

2015-05-06, 07:08 AM

I note Roy's sword hilt now has cross-grip patterning. When did that start?

The sword always had it. However if you're asking since when we can see it, it's since the very beginning of the art upgrade: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html

talkamancer

2015-05-06, 09:42 AM

I've not read through 7 pages of comments but, does this strip put to bed the theories that Belkar draws his last breath because he becomes undead ?

Onyavar

2015-05-06, 10:05 AM

I've not read through 7 pages of comments but, does this strip put to bed the theories that Belkar draws his last breath because he becomes undead ?

No, but it also can't prove it. It's (afaik) not related at all. Though people (also, me) were reminded of the prophecy.

Lissou

2015-05-06, 10:14 AM

I've not read through 7 pages of comments but, does this strip put to bed the theories that Belkar draws his last breath because he becomes undead ?

You're not new here. You should know better :P The members of this forum will keep making every possible theory even after the prophecy happens, and nothing that disproves what they believe will "count".

And just because Durkula is taking breaths doesn't change the fact that ihe could have decided never to do so, which means this strip definitely won't stop any theory.

GreatWyrmGold

2015-05-06, 10:18 AM

On a side note, this makes me wonder if the vampire is aware of Durkons prophecy. Does he know that Durkon will only go home posthumously?
It's not impossible, but it would require bumbling into the right memory.

There are no Temples of Hel. To have Temples, one must have priests/clerics, which the HPoH is the first of, or at least worshipers.
Hel has those. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html) They just don't get very far...

why don't the use escalators to get to the temple, after all they have lava trash disposal. :confused:
Same reason Heaven doesn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html).

Cool, only took me 34 strips to notice. I fail at art.
Don't feel so bad. Roy hasn't been in many of them.

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 01:23 PM

It's a colloquial phrase the world could do without. The proper word is "feelings". "Feels" are what causes restraining orders.

Amen brother.

Corneel

2015-05-06, 01:39 PM

Amen brother.
Do you share a parent? Do you belong to the same (religious) order? If not, why call him brother and dilute the meaning of that word?

kivzirrum

2015-05-06, 01:46 PM

Do you share a parent? Do you belong to the same (religious) order? If not, why call him brother and dilute the meaning of that word?

It's funny--when a colloquialism is new, it's heinous and the world would be better off without it. Give it a few generations and people think nothing of it :smalltongue:

Amusingly, just as I was typing that last word, I heard a coworker of mine say "What's going on, brother?" to someone on the phone. Weird.

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 02:12 PM

Do you share a parent? Do you belong to the same (religious) order? If not, why call him brother and dilute the meaning of that word?

/yawn

Obviously because it's right.

Goosefarble

2015-05-06, 02:16 PM

Do you share a parent? Do you belong to the same (religious) order? If not, why call him brother and dilute the meaning of that word?

Damn. Someone's gonna need a cure light wounds for that burn.

goodpeople25

2015-05-06, 02:19 PM

It's funny--when a colloquialism is new, it's heinous and the world would be better off without it. Give it a few generations and people think nothing of it :smalltongue:

Amusingly, just as I was typing that last word, I heard a coworker of mine say "What's going on, brother?" to someone on the phone. Weird.
There is a difference though.
Brother in this context is simply a non traditional definition of a completely legitimate word. That coincidently has most likely has been in use in a reduced context for a fair portion of recorded history.
While "feels" is a deliberate corruption of a legitimate word that pretty much means the same thing as feelings.

BannedInSchool

2015-05-06, 02:51 PM

While "feels" is a deliberate corruption of a legitimate word that pretty much means the same thing as feelings.
Which annoys me less than ignorantly changing the meaning of an existing word. :smalltongue: Fury rising... :smallfurious: THAT'S NOT WHAT THAT WORD MEANS!!!

:smallbiggrin:

Mordae

2015-05-06, 02:59 PM

literally (adv.) lit·er·al·ly

2. : in effect : virtually <will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice — Norman Cousins>

Hyperbole or no, it still bothers me how often people use literally to mean figuratively. I get that languages evolve, but when it's to the point where a word can mean one thing or its opposite purely based upon inflection (inflammable, I'm looking at you), we're not in a good place.

Diminutives like "feels" hurt me less than definition creep and verbing.

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 03:29 PM

Which annoys me less than ignorantly changing the meaning of an existing word.

The ignorance here is yours, as "Brother" may and has often been used to imply brothers-in-minds, souls, goals etc. so your rage is completly unwarranted. On the other hand "feels" is really taking an existing word and contorting it into something unclear for no reason, like newspeak.

happycrow

2015-05-06, 03:38 PM

The ignorance here is yours, as "Brother" may and has often been used to imply brothers-in-minds, souls, goals etc. so your rage is completly unwarranted. On the other hand "feels" is really taking an existing word and contorting it into something unclear for no reason, like newspeak.

The nounification of verbs, and the verbification of nouns, has been documented in English going back all the way to Alfred the Great.

If you wanted a coherent and logical language, boy are YOU flurping the nurzle.

littlebum2002

2015-05-06, 04:17 PM

The ignorance here is yours, as "Brother" may and has often been used to imply brothers-in-minds, souls, goals etc. so your rage is completly unwarranted. On the other hand "feels" is really taking an existing word and contorting it into something unclear for no reason, like newspeak.

This person is right. The English language has remained 100% unchanged for hundreds of years, so how dare we begin modifying it now.

Watcher

2015-05-06, 04:22 PM

Does mistletoe grow as independent bushes in OotS-world?
In the world I live in, mistletoe grows parasitically on trees.
Mistletoe grows on bushes and shrubs, as well. I would imagine that the priests would tend those bushes and the mistletoe growing on them, as well.

Keltest

2015-05-06, 04:25 PM

This person is right. The English language has remained 100% unchanged for hundreds of years, so how dare we begin modifying it now.

We probably should be striving to make ourselves easier to understand though, not harder.

Doug Lampert

2015-05-06, 04:44 PM

We probably should be striving to make ourselves easier to understand though, not harder.

Which is why misuse of "literally" to mean "figuratively" (as if it were simply an intensifier rather than its actual meaning) or "inflammable" to mean "not flammable" bother me far, far more than "feels" in this comic. There's no reasonable way to misinterpret the use of "feels" as anything but another word for "feelings", the sentence structure makes it clear that feels is being used as a noun, so it's a noun form of "to feel" and someone doesn't understand gerunds.

Bad grammar, but harmless. A fictional character using bad grammar when the author knows better is presumably part of the character's characterization. Doesn't bother me in a story.

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 04:44 PM

This person is right. The English language has remained 100% unchanged for hundreds of years, so how dare we begin modifying it now.

For the worse? No thanks.

Ron Miel

2015-05-06, 04:45 PM

Sometimes English needs a new word. It's perfectly acceptible to modify a verb into a noun, if no suitable noun exists already. But where there is already a perfectly good noun such as feelings in widespread use, trying to create a new noun form is jarring.

littlebum2002

2015-05-06, 04:51 PM

We probably should be striving to make ourselves easier to understand though, not harder.

If I didn't know English, and someone asked me which word I would associate more closely with the word "to feel", I would certainly choose "feels" not "feelings". We are making the language easier, just not for people who have already studied it.

I can't wait for the day when young people start actually spelling words they way they are pronounced in such a vast amount that it actually makes it to dictionaries. English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, and I wholeheartedly support anything that makes it even slightly easier, and "feels" is certainly that.

For the worse? No thanks.

The word "feels" is both
A) closer to the verb form than the previous noun, "feelings", and
B) is already a word in use, which means one less word for people to learn

I fail to see how that makes the language WORSE. Unless of course you're using the same tired old argument that grammar nazis have been spewing for centuries, "that's the way it's always been done so it's better"

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 05:00 PM

If I didn't know English, and someone asked me which word I would associate more closely with the word "to feel", I would certainly choose "feels" not "feelings".

And I can't even begin to express how sad this makes me. I can only imagine one fitting example to convey it: people going to see "Titanic" with Leonardo Di Caprio for the 20x time without knowing that there actually was a ship with that name who sunk down.
It's a change for the worse no matter how you slice it, since it's something that promotes ignorance rather than the other way around.

I mean why would I need to learn a language when I can just make up my own words for it?
It's this sort of reasoning behind the word that makes it a negative thing.

I can't wait for the day when young people start actually spelling words they way they are pronounced in such a vast amount that it actually makes it to dictionaries. English is one of the most difficult languages to learn, and I wholeheartedly support anything that makes it even slightly easier, and "feels" is certainly that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Have fun!

BannedInSchool

2015-05-06, 05:07 PM

The ignorance here is yours, as "Brother" may and has often been used to imply brothers-in-minds, souls, goals etc. so your rage is completly unwarranted. On the other hand "feels" is really taking an existing word and contorting it into something unclear for no reason, like newspeak.
I wasn't referring to the use of "brother", but when that is the case with other words. For example, "electrocution" was coined to mean "execution (death) with electricity", but today people are electrocuted left and right without much harm. :smalltongue:

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 05:08 PM

I wasn't referring to the use of "brother", but when that is the case with other words. For example, "electrocution" was coined to mean "execution (death) with electricity", but today people are electrocuted left and right without much harm. :smalltongue:

Ah, my apologies then. :)

ti'esar

2015-05-06, 05:14 PM

And I can't even begin to express how sad this makes me.

Yeah, gets you right in the feels, doesn't it?

FlawedParadigm

2015-05-06, 05:17 PM

Note to Rich: in the future, please have all comics proofread by the staff of the Oxford English Dictionary before posting. You may also wish to screen comics with test audiences first, to make sure you have their approval of how to express your own story.

blunk

2015-05-06, 05:24 PM

The world was perfect when I was 19. New things frighten me.

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 05:33 PM

The world was perfect when I was 19. New things frighten me.

Sometimes English needs a new word. It's perfectly acceptible to modify a verb into a noun, if no suitable noun exists already. But where there is already a perfectly good noun such as feelings in widespread use, trying to create a new noun form is jarring.

Imagine if someone thought that the word "knowledge" is too long and complicated to learn and so decided to replace it with "knows".

"Einstein was a man with a lot of knowledge in his brain" ---> "Einstein had lots of knows"

New things aren't an issue, it's when they're out of ignorance or for the worse that they are.

GM_3826

2015-05-06, 05:47 PM

I've never seen "feels" once used in a serious context, and it probably WON'T be used.

BannedInSchool

2015-05-06, 05:50 PM

Einstein sure knows the knows, though. He wouldn't use "massive" as a generic adjective divorced from referring to mass.

jere7my

2015-05-06, 05:56 PM

Yeah, gets you right in the feels, doesn't it?

It really angries me up.

Jasdoif

2015-05-06, 06:16 PM

Yeah, gets you right in the feels, doesn't it?Personally, I've only ever seen "feels" used as such in a particular type of scenario: Where events lead one to feel an unexpected amount of sympathy for a character, with sufficient intensity that the sensation carries some resemblance to the shock of unexpected physical harm (I note the similar phrasing between "right in the feels" and "right in the kisser"). Which could explain why "feels" could be seen as taking damage, maximum or otherwise.

Snails

2015-05-06, 06:35 PM

Extreme bending of the norms of grammar for emphasis is simply part of the English language.

When done occasionally in casual or humorous contexts, there is nothing wrong with it.

It can work badly in more serious contexts, or when overdone. Much as I admired the movie Juno, the actors were visibly straining to convey the full emotional range they were seeking, while also spitting out mouthfuls of unnaturally punchy dialogue, line after line after line. It was adequately acceptable in context, but if the movie were a bit less lighthearted, I would have called it a massive fail.

jere7my

2015-05-06, 06:53 PM

I would have called it a massive fail.

I see what you did there.

blunk

2015-05-06, 06:58 PM

Imagine if someone thought that the word "knowledge" is too long and complicated to learn and so decided to replace it with "knows".

"Einstein was a man with a lot of knowledge in his brain" ---> "Einstein had lots of knows"

New things aren't an issue, it's when they're out of ignorance or for the worse that they are.I have no problem with "Einstein had lots of knows". If it's common usage, it's out of *awareness* of current language, not ignorance. Also, I see no argument that it's "for the worse". I just think you don't like it.

Keltest

2015-05-06, 07:04 PM

I have no problem with "Einstein had lots of knows". If it's common usage, it's out of *awareness* of current language, not ignorance. Also, I see no argument that it's "for the worse". I just think you don't like it.

"Know" is now being used as a verb (to know), a noun (a know) and whatever the heck "no" is. When spoken aloud, there is no way of knowing whether or not you mean he was intelligent, had lots of critics, or was very frequently dismissive.

At best, you have shunted the difficulty sideways rather than actually addressing it.

blunk

2015-05-06, 07:21 PM

"Know" is now being used as a verb (to know), a noun (a know) and whatever the heck "no" is. When spoken aloud, there is no way of knowing whether or not you mean he was intelligent, had lots of critics, or was very frequently dismissive.

At best, you have shunted the difficulty sideways rather than actually addressing it.*shrug*

If a language change doesn't work, it probably won't happen. Take it to the OP and ask him for a more likely example.

Shining Wrath

2015-05-06, 07:46 PM

The ignorance here is yours, as "Brother" may and has often been used to imply brothers-in-minds, souls, goals etc. so your rage is completly unwarranted. On the other hand "feels" is really taking an existing word and contorting it into something unclear for no reason, like newspeak.

Also, Christian sects have been referring to one another as "Brother" and "Sister" since roughly the time of Paul, so there's definitely precedent for that word being used metaphorically.

And I think I should quote Calvin here: "Verbing nouns weirds language".

Falbrogna

2015-05-06, 07:52 PM

*shrug*

I think this says it all. Some people simply don't care if things get worse, or proper words become less of themselves for no reason.

jere7my

2015-05-06, 07:57 PM

I think this says it all. Some people simply don't care if things get worse, or proper words become less of themselves for no reason.

Oof. Right in the feels.

Acacia OnnaStik

2015-05-06, 10:36 PM

I think this says it all. Some people simply don't care if things get worse, or proper words become less of themselves for no reason.

I mourn the loss of the singular second-person pronoun. I have strong feelings about the Oxford comma. I really, really care about language.

"Feels" definitely has a legitimate place in conversational English. It's just not formal. Things don't have to be.

Lissou

2015-05-06, 10:52 PM

I mourn the loss of the singular second-person pronoun. I have strong feelings about the Oxford comma. I really, really care about language.

"Feels" definitely has a legitimate place in conversational English. It's just not formal. Things don't have to be.

I feel the same way. I would never say "right in the feelings". That makes no sense to me. "Right in the feels", however, is a specific, informal expression that is recognised and understood and no weirder than many other informal expressions. Some may find it ugly, but it not confusing or difficult to understand and it serves its purpose.

Going back to your first paragraph, it's amazing how many people complain about the use of "they" to refer to a specific, singular person of unknown or non-binary gender. They complain it's some "new" thing even though it has existed in that way for centuries. But most of all, they complain about the use of a plural word to refer to a single person. While speaking English. Often, while using the word "you" in their complaint. How do they not see it? English has a long history of using plural pronouns to refer to a single person. Anyone who wants to change that has their work cut out for them.

As an aside: "having your work cut out for you" is a perfect example of a sentence I understood wrong for years after moving to English-speaking countries. To me, it meant something similar to "having your work pre-chewed". Having an easier time because someone went and cut out the work for you so now you only have to finish it, the cutting phase is already over. Turns out it means the opposite. I still don't get why, but oh well. Language doesn't have to make sense as long as people understand one another.

Jasdoif

2015-05-06, 11:12 PM

As an aside: "having your work cut out for you" is a perfect example of a sentence I understood wrong for years after moving to English-speaking countries. To me, it meant something similar to "having your work pre-chewed". Having an easier time because someone went and cut out the work for you so now you only have to finish it, the cutting phase is already over. Turns out it means the opposite. I still don't get why, but oh well. Language doesn't have to make sense as long as people understand one another.Some quick research turned up an answer, of which this (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1475051) seems the most complete summary. Basically, the phrase dates back to hand-sewing of garments, where cutting out the fabric would be both the first step and the least labor intensive. "Having my work cut out for me" would mean that the easy part has already been done, and the hard parts have been left for you to do.

Falbrogna

2015-05-07, 12:11 AM

jere7my

2015-05-07, 12:32 AM

Will you think the same next time Haley will be referred to as a "Rouge" ?
That's kind of informal too.

Depends—are they spelling it that way intentionally, to convey a different connotation than "rogue"?

I noticed you used a contraction there. Seems a bit informal, dost thou not think? :smallwink:

Falbrogna

2015-05-07, 12:49 AM

Depends—are they spelling it that way intentionally, to convey a different connotation than "rogue"?

I noticed you used a contraction there. Seems a bit informal, dost thou not think? :smallwink:

The question wasn't directed at you, so I have no interest in your answer.

jere7my

2015-05-07, 12:53 AM

The question wasn't directed at you, so I have no interest in your answer.

:smallfrown:

I'll leave you to it, then!

Lissou

2015-05-07, 01:10 AM

Some quick research turned up an answer, of which this (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1475051) seems the most complete summary. Basically, the phrase dates back to hand-sewing of garments, where cutting out the fabric would be both the first step and the least labor intensive. "Having my work cut out for me" would mean that the easy part has already been done, and the hard parts have been left for you to do.

Thanks. That's actually exactly how I interpreted it. But to me, that means less work. How did it become "you have a lot of hard work waiting for you" when it means "you have most of the work you would have, but less, because someone already did one of the steps for you - even though it was the easiest one".

Knowing where it comes from only makes it harder for me to interalise, I'm afraid.

Falbrogna

2015-05-07, 01:23 AM

:smallfrown:

I'll leave you to it, then!

Well you pretty much made fun of the whole argument so far, you can't pretend to be taken super-seriously out of nowhere :smalltongue:

Jasdoif

2015-05-07, 02:10 AM

Thanks. That's actually exactly how I interpreted it. But to me, that means less work. How did it become "you have a lot of hard work waiting for you" when it means "you have most of the work you would have, but less, because someone already did one of the steps for you - even though it was the easiest one".

Knowing where it comes from only makes it harder for me to interalise, I'm afraid.I'd say the psychological impact of effort density is a key factor. Having the easy stuff done by someone else does means that's one step less to do, but it also means the work left to be done will be more intensive on average. Some people enjoy doing the tasks that require relatively little effort but are still genuinely productive, an option that's off the table if someone else has done those tasks before it even gets to them.

Alternatively, I imagine the intricacy of the initial cutting determines how difficult the following steps will be, so the person doing the cutting might end up making the rest of the process more difficult than it needs to be, simply because they have no experience (or concern) with what those later steps will involve.

Lissou

2015-05-07, 02:52 AM

I'd say the psychological impact of effort density is a key factor. Having the easy stuff done by someone else does means that's one step less to do, but it also means the work left to be done will be more intensive on average. Some people enjoy doing the tasks that require relatively little effort but are still genuinely productive, an option that's off the table if someone else has done those tasks before it even gets to them.

Alternatively, I imagine the intricacy of the initial cutting determines how difficult the following steps will be, so the person doing the cutting might end up making the rest of the process more difficult than it needs to be, simply because they have no experience (or concern) with what those later steps will involve.

I like that second part. I mean, I understand the first one too, but to me it doesn't scream "this is making my job harder", just "thanks for helping but you did the easy part so I pretty much have the same amount of work as before".

The second part, though.... can end up as "I have to work from what you've left for me instead of being able to cut it in the way I want to use it". That makes is an additional constraint if there were many ways of cutting it and you didn't get to choose which to go with, or if the person cut it too close and you prefer having more room, etc.

snowblizz

2015-05-07, 04:40 AM

I like that second part. I mean, I understand the first one too, but to me it doesn't scream "this is making my job harder", just "thanks for helping but you did the easy part so I pretty much have the same amount of work as before".

The second part, though.... can end up as "I have to work from what you've left for me instead of being able to cut it in the way I want to use it". That makes is an additional constraint if there were many ways of cutting it and you didn't get to choose which to go with, or if the person cut it too close and you prefer having more room, etc.
And today I learned a new expression I also apparently was not quite understanding.

Also to those claiming English as super hard to learn. BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHA. From my grade school classes everyone graduated with ok degrees in English, but the number of people knowing even a smidgeon of Finnish amounted to 5-6 out of 40. From the 120 or so in junior college of my "vintage" one class of <20 had the advanced Finnish (and almost all of us had a "home advantage"), whereas everyone basically took advanced English.
What is hard to learn as languages is IMNSHO entirely dependant on your own linguistic background and your motivation to learn the new language.
I learnt English watching the weekend cartoons on satellite tv when I was 5-7, Finnish was *still* much more difficult to get and I had parents who spoke the language and books and tv and stuff. To this day I consider my English vastly better than my Finnish and I *live* in the Finnish speaking country.

Lissou

2015-05-07, 04:49 AM

snowblizz

2015-05-07, 05:11 AM

It's easy to learn the basics of English, but very difficult to master it. The curve is much steeper than for other languages, which start out harder, but then have a pretty linear progression. All in all I would say it's a fairly easy language to learn to read and write, and a tricky one to learn to hear and speak. Pronunciation doesn't seem to have clear rules, and there seem to be as many different accents as speakers sometimes.

How do we define "mastering" a language? What is that makes English so hard to learn? I'd be a bit vary of objectively establishing that X is harder than Y for something as nebulous as language and learning.

In my experience those who have been motivated to learn a new language learn it, the effort you have to put in will depend on you linguistic profile and your learning abilities, but those are strongly personal.

I'm sure English is hard for some to learn, just as Finnish was extremely difficult for most of the people I grew up with. Then again there was the one guy who learned Finnish with no problems, with no "heritage" benefits and thought it super easy. All languages tend to have something in them that's really difficult to learn. Swedish nouns have a grammatical gender that's nearly impossible to determine by rules. You have to *feel* it (technically I guess, by experience, learn it for each word). Which means Swedish is extremely hard to master (in this one aspect) and an instant "tell" whether one is a "born" Swedish-speaker or not.

Lissou

2015-05-07, 06:00 AM

How do we define "mastering" a language? What is that makes English so hard to learn? I'd be a bit vary of objectively establishing that X is harder than Y for something as nebulous as language and learning.

I think you meant "wary".
The main difficulty with English in my opinion is that it's extremely versatile. It also makes it easy at first, because you'll be understood and you'll make less mistakes (no conjugating to learn, no genders, no need to modify the adjectives based on what they qualify, and in most cases you can take a word and make it a noun, verb or adjective based on your needs). But at the same time, you may see a sentence that you're not familiar with, and have no idea which word is the verb, because several of them could be. You could see a sentence and be unable to parse it, especially if it has several prepositions in a row.

I agree that you can't really qualify "mastering". Let me state it another way: of all the languages I've learnt (and several of my friends have had a similar experience), English was the one I could start communicating in the fastest in a very basic way. The other languages required more work and knowledge before I could form even one grammatically correct sentence. But once I could form one sentence in the other languages, I could form a huge amount of them using the same rules of grammar, conjugation and pronunciation. With English, not so much. Many of the difficulties arose later, such as learning about modes and figuring out how to parse sentences. The amount of effort required to have a somewhat linear progression was exponential. The amount of effort I have needed in other languages was linear, or even in some cases smaller and smaller. Yet I enjoy learning English the most and I would say It's the language I'm best at learning and communicating in.

All languages tend to have something in them that's really difficult to learn. Swedish nouns have a grammatical gender that's nearly impossible to determine by rules. You have to *feel* it (technically I guess, by experience, learn it for each word). Which means Swedish is extremely hard to master (in this one aspect) and an instant "tell" whether one is a "born" Swedish-speaker or not.

How many genders are we speaking of? Many languages have grammatical genders, for instance Romance languages have 2, German has 3 and Xhosa has 15. I'm curious where Swedish falls (I'm guessing much closer to 2 than 15).