a retool on the dread necromancer

[lytokk]

This may need to go into homebrew, but I figured I'd ask here first maybe. Anyway, I've posted before about making a slightly more blasty DN for a player in a game. I was going to remove the fear aura and the familiar from the DN class list, as well as any EVIL tagged spells from the list (with the exception of summon undead) and replace them with various acid and cold damage spells, one of each per level, and a skeleton pet who can be reformed once per day.

I was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions for thematically appropriate spells to use? I'd want to use more than the various orb spells, as I feel that could get redundant and feels like a cheap cop-out. It would be nice to get some area attack spells in there as well, but I don't have the near encyclopedic knowledge of spells that some in this forum seem to have.

[Tiri]

Kelgore's Grave Mist? It seems to fit thematically enough, and affects an area.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sounds like the warmage to me. For everything else their are PrCs.

[GilesTheCleric]

Are you beholden to the class? Making a Cleric or Wizard specializing in necromancy and evocation spells, perhaps with Lord of the Uttercold, Taint Spell, Black Lore of Moil, Debilitating Spell, etc can achieve the same effect with less work and more versatility.

Alternatively, I have a dread necro built as a solid T3 BBEG. It's a Necromancer 1/ DN 13/Cleric 1 (Build goes to 20, but I optimized it for levels 12 and 15, when I expected it to encounter the party). Its single target damage is 2x 142 (average) with Harm, or 2x 33 (avg) with Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds. Sure, that's not a whole lot, but when paired with Tomb-tainted soul and masses of undead minions, makes for a very resilient character able to output a lot of damage (and healing!) long-term.

With the Advanced Learning, I picked Negative Energy Burst, Undead Lieutenant, and Awaken Undead/Revive Undead. I didn't put any build resources toward improving the scabrous touch. There's other, more flexible and more powerful spells available, such as Kelgore's like Tiri mentioned, or even other low-level picks like Ghost Lantern.

Let me know if you want me to send you the build. In the hands of a player, it might be too much T3, given the power of minionmancy.

[lytokk]

Part of what the player wanted was to have an undead minion, wanted to blast people with spells, and wanted to have a darker character than what she's played before. After a while, I got into a tossup between the DN and the Death Master, but decided to go with DN and with the Death Masters undead pet system. Only problem was DN doesn't have any real blasty spells.

I like grave mist, that'll fit well.

Edit: Games in a week, so changing gears to another class could make more work than its worth. And when I told the player about the whole slow move toward lichdom she got excited.

[Vizzerdrix]

So strip the casting from one and put it on the other. Easy peasy.

[GilesTheCleric]

Part of what the player wanted was to have an undead minion, Undead Lieutentant solves this with a single spell. Alternatively, picking up an undead familiar (I like the Ghostly Visage from FF 221) is a lower-powered method.


wanted to blast people with spells,
If the player is after a ton of blasting, reserve feats might be the way to go. DN gets a lot of spells per day, and even a class feature for extra bad touches, but they're still spent after 20 rounds of combat.


and wanted to have a darker character than what she's played before.
Evil allowed? The taint system from HoH and the phobias system (HoH or UA, can't remember) can make for dark, conflicted characters. Deformity feats and grafts from sinister creatures can do the same (or a symbiont, or the ghostly visage familiar for a cheaper alternative).

[lytokk]

Not evil darker, just a darker subject matter character. She's been the happy go lucky druid, righteous duskblade, and now wants a little more of a horror character. She's got somewhat of a dark sense of humor and wanted to explore it.
I went around and around before trying to figure this class out. At one point was going to use the Necromancer wizard variant complete with the undead minion, but god rid of that thought as the player hates prepared casters. Was going to go sorc, with using the same necromancer variant, but then was suggested DN since it really fit the bill, minus the lack of blasting. So, in the end this is what I came to, since I'd rather do a minor retool to a spell list rather than build a whole class.

Also, am looking at reserve feats now. Since she'll be level 5, she'll only have the opportunity for one, and its looking like winters blast.

[GilesTheCleric]

Having players push their rp boundaries and try new things is always encouraging to see.

I've got two homebrew classes with restricted lists that might fit the bill, if you say "everything on this list, plus all Necromancy spells".

One, the Magi'i, uses fire evocations, then earth-based BFC and utility. Its list is offensively focused. (Some words that describe the list: fire, sonic, slashing, some earth, anarchic, Greensingers (Eb), charisma, light)

The other, the Order-Mage, uses cold evocations, then earth-based BFC and utility. Its list is defensively focused. The lists don't contain any homebrewed spells, and every spell is sourced and given a short description. (Descriptive words: cold, nonlethal, bludgeoning, some earth, cuthbert, axiomatic, tyr, hextor, heironeous, constitution, darkness)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/730l3a9toa54wct/AAD0y7-Ja-r6lncVs_wsQ44sa?dl=0

The Magi'i list begins on page 18 of the pdf, and the Order-Mage on page 25.

You've probably already looked at the DN Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook), otherwise I would recommend that as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let her take the feat Obtain Familiar in CA and replace it with the specialist Necromancer's skeletal minion ACF. Make this in addition to her DN familiar, since the ghostly visage familiar is one of the strongest class features in the game for its level. It can always possess her, granting her immunity to any thing mind-affecting, and in combat it can manifest over her face to use its paralyzing gaze attack. It can even spend a standard action every round to focus its gaze on a creature to force them to save vs paralysis again, even if they're not looking or if they already made the save that round.

Winter's Blast requires 2nd level spells, which a DN doesn't get until 4th level. Unless you're using PF feat progression, she won't be able to begin play with that unless she's using Versatile Spellcaster to get early access to higher level spells. Have her get Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell, so she can spend two spell slots of X level to cast a (heightened) spell of level X+1. This gives her access to the next higher level of spells early, and thus gives her all the spells of that level on her class spell list as spells known, so she can spend two of her highest level spell slots to cast any spell of one level higher from her class spell list.

I would replace two spells of each level on the DN spell list with two new spells of your desired theme, acid and cold. Also add Magic Circle Against [Alignment] to their list because they get (Lesser, Greater) Planar Binding with no means of actually using them. I would go with the following, which contains a fair number of crowd controls as well, and it takes into consideration the fact that they get so few high level spells known:
1st: -Bane, -Bestow Wound; +Lesser Orb of Acid (SC), +Ice Slick (Frostburn)
2nd: -Darkness, -Death Knell; +Ray of Ice (SC), +Acid Arrow
3rd: -Crushing Despair, -Speak with Dead; +Sleet Storm, +Nauseating Breath (SC) or Acid Breath (SC)
4th: -Bestow Curse, -Contagion; +Orb of Acid, +Orb of Cold
5th: -Blight, -Oath of Blood; +Vitriolic Sphere (SC), +Call Avalanche (Frostburn)
6th: -Eyebite, -Geas/Quest; +Freezing Fog (SC), +Acid Storm (SC)
7th: -Vile Death, -Finger of Death, +Ice Claw (SC), +Slime Wave (SC)
8th: +Polar Ray
9th: +Iceberg (Frostburn)

[Segev]

While I absolutely adore the Dread Necromancer, you might consider the Warlock, instead, for this player. By 6th level (around when the DN can really start to gain undead minions), the Warlock can have Animate Dead as a spell-like ability which can be used at will to make temporary minions, or with a costly component (the 25 gp per HD of black onyx) for permanent ones. It also has a built-in blast effect/feature.

You could also give a modified Charm Invocation that becomes a Command Undead invocation; it would do what Charm does, but to an undead creature (granting full and complete control if it's mindless).

[lytokk]

Right, sorry. For some reason I kept thinking DN's had a wizards spell level progression, not one delayed. I knew it, but I hadn't made the connection that a DN wouldn't have 2nd level spells at level 3.

Thank you. That's a nice wide variety of spells to remove and add and precisely what I was looking for.