[3.P] Assistance in building my first Gish

[Chronikoce]

So I am finally going to try and build a gish and after reading through the handbooks that are floating around I have a general idea. I had a few questions though.

So my current plan is: fighter 4/wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Other X.

By 11th level that will give me access to 4th level spells as a wizard. This is 2 levels sooner than the duskblade and 1 level later than the Magus would gain access so I am pretty happy with that.

Questions
--What prestige classes are fun to fill out the rest of a gish? (I am not worried about optimization so much as fun/cool since the rest of my group is pretty poor at optimizing).

--How many caster levels can I lose before I would be at risk of being ineffective? (I was thinking of taking 4 levels of spellsword but I would lose an additional 2 caster levels by doing so).

--What weapon does one generally wield if my plan would be buff and assault + BFC spells? (I was thinking a reach weapon. Is it worth burning a feat on EWP: Spiked Chain if I am not focusing on tripping?)

--Is arcane strike an effective feat as a wizard gish as opposed to sorcadin or will I be hurt by lower spells per day?

[Vhaidara]

Well, the first thing to note is that there are 2 kinds of gish: Spellblade and Buffbeast. Spellblades are Magi and Duskblades, because they can actually use sword alongside spell. Buffbeasts are what you've built, where your spells will focus on buffs, since you don't have the actions to mix them with normal combat (Arcane Channel and Spell Combat/Spellstrike)

As far as how to build, the general rule is never lose more the 3 caster levels. At that point, you don't get 9ths. So a standard would be Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5, using EK to fill in levels before you qualify for AC.

Spellsword is about casting in Armor. Abjurant Champion is about not actually wearing armor. They don't play nice together.

[Chronikoce]

Spellsword is about casting in Armor. Abjurant Champion is about not actually wearing armor. They don't play nice together.
That's good to know about those two prestige classes not really mixing.

As for channeling a spell. I know that I will be more buff rather than channel with this build but I figure if I use quicken spell or arcane strike I can still emulate the feeling of spells being channeled into my attacks. Assuming a swift action can be used in the same round as a full attack.

Isn't a fighter 1/Wiz 5 build going to basically just be played as a wizard for quite a long time? Even once EK starts to come online I wouldn't really have much staying power in melee unless am fully buffed already.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Fighter 1/Wiz 5 will never play like Wiz 6 unless you have a crazy point buy or other stats. Fighter 1/Wiz 5 may have most of the class-based abilities of a Wiz 6, but stats and feat placement will mean that he is generally better off trying to use his abilities together. In 3.x, for example, I started mine with Power Attack, Cleave, and Combat Reflexes while wielding a guisarme. (Alt build: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes). At first level, he was a fighter. At second level, he could cast shield (20% spell failure) or enlarge person. By fourth level, he'd moved on to glitterdusting enemy formations and using alter self to increase his AC. When he was Fighter 1/Wizard 5, he did pack the normal wizarding haste spell but he also packed a blink spell--great defense and a nice offensive boost too. He didn't have the feats or abilities to excel at summoning monsters or casting spells with DCs (glitterdust was an exception since it's an area spell that targets will, but even then he couldn't compete with a regular wizard at doing that kind of thing--it's just that the spell is good enough to use anyway).

WRT Spellsword and abjurant champion, they actually play nicer than people seem to think. You're probably not going to get more than 2 levels of spellsword anyway--enough to cast in a mithral chain shirt without spell failure and without losing caster levels. The part of abjurant champion that appears to have been designed to boost mage armor doesn't actually work (since mage armor is not an abjuration spell), so an abjurant champion probably still wants the mithral chain shirt after all.

[Chronikoce]

He didn't have the feats or abilities to excel at summoning monsters or casting spells with DCs (glitterdust was an exception since it's an area spell that targets will, but even then he couldn't compete with a regular wizard at doing that kind of thing--it's just that the spell is good enough to use anyway).
I forgot to consider saves being lower. I don't play a lot of casters. I usually DM so I tend to just have my baddies use spell like abilities rather than stat out full casting progression.



WRT Spellsword and abjurant champion, they actually play nicer than people seem to think. You're probably not going to get more than 2 levels of spellsword anyway--enough to cast in a mithral chain shirt without spell failure and without losing caster levels. The part of abjurant champion that appears to have been designed to boost mage armor doesn't actually work (since mage armor is not an abjuration spell), so an abjurant champion probably still wants the mithral chain shirt after all.

I was reading that there may be a way around this by using spell research. If a wizard researches a new spell they can dictate the school. So in theory I could research a spell that gives +Armor to AC, make it abjuration, and call it by a different name. I know it does require the DM to be on board but it does seem exceedingly silly that mage armor isn't abjuration.

[Hiro Quester]

There's an ACF that gives wizard fighter feats instead of wizard bonus feats. Many gishes use that. I think you trade scribe scroll for it.

I'm a big fan of a caster learning the 2 level spell heroics. That gets temporary (10 min/level) access to fighter bonus feats. Then you can use power attack, weapon finesse, TWF, or whatever (try before you buy), as well as having access to blindfight.

The fourth level spell thunderlance is also fun. A lance of force that does 3d6 damage, immediately resizing itself anywhere up to 20feet (so 20 foot reach) plus it uses your casting stat for to hit and damage, instead of strength. You can use it one handed, too, to leave a hand free for casting.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The ability to cast in armor isn't necessary, you can make armor with 0% spell failure chance. Unless you think that would be cheesy.

[lord_khaine]

WRT Spellsword and abjurant champion, they actually play nicer than people seem to think. You're probably not going to get more than 2 levels of spellsword anyway--enough to cast in a mithral chain shirt without spell failure and without losing caster levels. The part of abjurant champion that appears to have been designed to boost mage armor doesn't actually work (since mage armor is not an abjuration spell), so an abjurant champion probably still wants the mithral chain shirt after all.

Why does people think this had been designed to work on mage armor?
Abjurant champion is already an extremely powerfull class, that in no way need the addtional buff to AC.


I was reading that there may be a way around this by using spell research. If a wizard researches a new spell they can dictate the school. So in theory I could research a spell that gives +Armor to AC, make it abjuration, and call it by a different name. I know it does require the DM to be on board but it does seem exceedingly silly that mage armor isn't abjuration.

Should not per default be doable.. how much would a banned school means if someone researched an Evocation spell that allowed you to teleport?

[Hiro Quester]

If you are trying to melee, getting your AC to reasonably high levels is a good thing. There's always luminous armor (and its greater version) for abjurations that grant armor bonus (+5 and +8) plus opponent is at -4 to hit you when in melee range because of its bright luminosity.

It requires exalted, though and you take ability damage from using it.

But some think that's already overpowered, without adding ABjChamp levels to it. Extending it free is nice, though.

[Extra Anchovies]

Also, a thing worth noting: Mithral Feycraft (DMG2) Chain Shirt with a Thistledown Suit (Races of the Wild) is 0% ASF with no magical enhancements, leaving room for soulfire/proof against transmutation, or any other nine points' worth of enhancements (and then a Magic Vestment to boost AC).

[Forrestfire]

Why does people think this had been designed to work on mage armor?
Abjurant champion is already an extremely powerfull class, that in no way need the addtional buff to AC.

Because the class literally references Mage Armor in its ability text, and the example Abjurant Champion gets a +9 armor bonus off his casting of Mage Armor. It's not particularly relevant, though, since you can always just grab Luminous Armor instead.

[Chronikoce]

Why does people think this had been designed to work on mage armor?
Abjurant champion is already an extremely powerfull class, that in no way need the addtional buff to AC.

Forrestfire already answered this, I agree with him though.



Should not per default be doable.. how much would a banned school means if someone researched an Evocation spell that allowed you to teleport?

The difference is that Abjuration is the school of magic that is focused on protecting yourself. It makes perfect sense for a +AC spell to exist as abjuration.

[Extra Anchovies]

The difference is that Abjuration is the school of magic that is focused on protecting yourself. It makes perfect sense for a +AC spell to exist as abjuration.

Exactly this. The only reason it's evocation is that most other force effects are. Except I was wrong, it's conjuration for some reason.

[Petrocorus]

Spellsword is about casting in Armor. Abjurant Champion is about not actually wearing armor. They don't play nice together.
Their abilities don't synergize, but that don't mean you can't use both. The 1 level spellsword dip is always useful for the BAB and the CL, like in the Sorcadin build.


Why does people think this had been designed to work on mage armor?
Abjurant champion is already an extremely powerfull class, that in no way need the addtional buff to AC.

Should not per default be doable.. how much would a banned school means if someone researched an Evocation spell that allowed you to teleport?
I would agree with you on the principle, except precisely on this two specific examples. Many people consider Mage Armor should be an Abjuration spell, and houserule it to be Abjuration or at least allows players to use an Abjuration version. And teleportation spells were Evocation in 3.0 and i read several people on this very board saying this should have stay that way, for several reasons, notably because Conjuration didn't need it and it should be painful to ban a school, even Evocation.


Also, a thing worth noting: Mithral Feycraft (DMG2) Chain Shirt with a Thistledown Suit (Races of the Wild) is 0% ASF with no magical enhancements, leaving room for soulfire/proof against transmutation, or any other nine points' worth of enhancements (and then a Magic Vestment to boost AC).
Wait, how can a chain shirt be made with Thistledown?



So my current plan is: fighter 4/wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Other X.

Thou Shalt Not Lose a Caster Level.
So, if you allow me to make some counter proposals;

(Arcane Hunter) Ranger 1 / Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champ. 5 / Sacred Exorcist 8
The wizard version of the classical Sorcadin.

Wizard 4 / Ruathar 1 / Swiftblade 9 / Abj. Champ 5 /Ruathar +1
You need the Inspire Greatness + Psy Reform trick to enter Ruathar, but this is the best way to acquire a martial weapon proficiency without losing a CL or a feat. Unless you're un Elf or an Outsider.

Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 9 / Abj. Champ 5
You can go into Knight Phantom instead of Eldritch Knight.

You can make a lot of variation from there.
And of course you can replace Ranger or Fighter by LST Barbarian for Pounce.



Questions
--What prestige classes are fun to fill out the rest of a gish? (I am not worried about optimization so much as fun/cool since the rest of my group is pretty poor at optimizing).

For completing the Gish criteria, which means BAB +16 and 9th level spells at level 20, you need a mid BAB, full casting class, else, you won't have one of the two.
And there are not so many Full casting, mid BAB class available to arcane caster. The Sacred Exorcist is simply the easiest to qualify for and which can cover the 8 level left, and it fit the flavour of the Sorcadin which is one of the most common gish build. And it also gives Turn Undead to fuel Devotion feat.

Otherwise, you have Master Harper (WotC.com), Harper Paragon (PGtF), Heartwarder (F&P), Master of Yuirwood (UE), SwordDancer (F&P), and Unseen Seer (CM). All 10 levels long, but with some tough requirements.

Raumathari Battlemage (UE), Evereskan Tomb Guardian (PGtF) and Ruathar (RotW) are shorter PrC. Ruathar is really easy to qualify but only 3 level long. You can however dip 1 level in Dragonslayer, take the 3 level of Ruathar and finish off with one of the other two. Dragonslayer has a feat tax however. If you want another class instead, you might find one, but you'll probably have higher requirements in skills and feats. Unless you replace the Sorcerer / Wizard part by the Sha'Ir from Dragon Compendium and use a divine prestige class like Geomancer, Windwalker or Seeker of Misty Island.



--How many caster levels can I lose before I would be at risk of being ineffective? (I was thinking of taking 4 levels of spellsword but I would lose an additional 2 caster levels by doing so).

On this board, people tend to consider the Spellsword as a 1 level long class. You can of course build a pseudo Duskblade with something like this: Ranger 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 9/ Abj. Champ. 5 with a CL of 14 and access to 7th level spells.



--What weapon does one generally wield if my plan would be buff and assault + BFC spells? (I was thinking a reach weapon. Is it worth burning a feat on EWP: Spiked Chain if I am not focusing on tripping?)


Usually, two-hand weapons are better. Str x 1,5 + PA x 2. EWP is not worth it if you want to focus on damage. You'll already be feat starved.



--Is arcane strike an effective feat as a wizard gish as opposed to sorcadin or will I be hurt by lower spells per day?
A focused specialist has as many spells slot as a Sorcerer, a Domain Wizard has only 1 / level less, and lose nothing, and you access spells one level (at least) than Sorcerer. I would say Arcane Strike is as good for you as for Sorcadin.


Exactly this. The only reason it's evocation is that most other force effects are.
Except that Mage Armor is in Conjuration. Because that would be a shame if Evocation had nice things.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wait, how can a chain shirt be made with Thistledown?

It's actually called out as specifically allowed in the equipment description:
[QUOTE]Any armor that normally incorporates an underlying layer of quilted fabric (including chain shirts, as well as any medium or heavy armor normally made of metal) can substitute a thistledown suit for the normal layer of fabric.


Except that Mage Armor is in Conjuration. Because that would be a shame if Evocation had nice things.

Phbbbt. I should've checked before posting.

[deuxhero]

Spellsword is about casting in Armor. Abjurant Champion is about not actually wearing armor. They don't play nice together.


Spellsword is still a +1BAB with +1 casting class at level 1 that's pretty easy to qualify for (Combat Casting is required for so much Gish stuff you likely already have it), which is useful to grab for filling out levels (as you can only take Eldritch Knight 10 times).

Also, without Luminous Armor in play, there's a shortage of Abjurant Champion compatible spells that give armor bonus (remind me again why Mage Armor is conjuration)

[Chronikoce]

Also, without Luminous Armor in play, there's a shortage of Abjurant Champion compatible spells that give armor bonus (remind me again why Mage Armor is conjuration)

Because conjuration was at risk of being too weak of course!
It would make sense if it conjured actual armor of some sort rather than a force effect. As written I don't think it belongs in conjuration. For the games I DM I don't care which school it is in but if I am a player I am unfortunately at the mercy of my players who step into the DM seat.

If you want a taste of my suffering: One of my players bans Favored Soul when he DM's but allows cleric, wizard, and druid. Not a whole lot of reasoning behind what is ok and what isn't lol.


Thanks for the advice so far though guys. I am preparing a back up character in case my bard/crusader dies. The campaign where I am a player has turned out to be rather lethal for my characters. Lost a cleric early on (Entirely my fault. For roleplay reasons I didn't retreat when it was was absolutely necessary. Stayed in to make sure none of my comrades got injured and died as a result).

[DarkSonic1337]

I personally think it's rather sad that abjuration (the school primarily about defending against things) doesn't have more spells that give armor bonuses to AC. I'd be totally on board with someone researching such a spell as it fits thematically with the school.

If you're looking for a flavorful class...have you seen swiftblade? It's basically haste:The Class, with effects like miss chance,imposing failure chance on spells that target you, freedom of movement, and eventually extra actions and controlled time stop. However, it does cost you 4 caster levels to take the whole thing.

[Chronikoce]

If you're looking for a flavorful class...have you seen swiftblade? It's basically haste:The Class, with effects like miss chance,imposing failure chance on spells that target you, freedom of movement, and eventually extra actions and controlled time stop. However, it does cost you 4 caster levels to take the whole thing.

I looked it up and it definitely sounds neat. I could see building a character with it but not taking the last level. I'm not sure I could play it with my current group though. It would likely outshine a couple of the less rules savvy players by a significant margin and I prefer to try to stay around the same power level as the group I'm playing with.

[WeaselGuy]

The campaign where I am a player has turned out to be rather lethal for my characters. Lost a cleric early on (Entirely my fault. For roleplay reasons I didn't retreat when it was was absolutely necessary. Stayed in to make sure none of my comrades got injured and died as a result).

Risen Martyr the Cleric :smallbiggrin:

[Chronikoce]

Risen Martyr the Cleric :smallbiggrin:

That would have been quite appropriate thematically. A bit too late now though Hehe. It's too bad really, now I can't continue insisting that my companions praise Lathander's Holy light for our success and good fortune.

[WeaselGuy]

That would have been quite appropriate thematically. A bit too late now though Hehe. It's too bad really, now I can't continue insisting that my companions praise Lathander's Holy light for our success and good fortune.

Bah, it's never too late. I'm pretty sure there's no time limit on your God bringing your character back to life. You're looking at a backup in case your Bardsader kicks the bucket, no sense not having Cleric_v2.0 waiting on the back burner. Hell, talk to your DM about slapping the Saint template on him too, for even more shiny goodness.