How to survive Traps (D&D 3.5)

[Milongo]

Hello everyone,

i recently started a new round of D&D 3.5 with 3 friends and we are playing with gestalt-characters, starting LvL 8. We havent played much D&D so far and are still learning the game. I play a rouge like char for the first time and just now realized i have no idea how to survive traps.

The scenario:
I'm sneaking in a cave that is said to be ritual place for a demon worshiper cult. Sudenly a green beam of energy? blasts through my face and dissolves my character. - i faild my search check THE END -

The protagonist:
I play a human + shadow creature template (with buyoff, that means im an outsider?)
I'm ECL 8 with 6 LvL rogue and 2 LvL assassin + 7 LvL monk and 1 LvL fist of zuoken
My search skill is a +14 (11 ranks, 3 Int-Mod)
My disable device skill is a +17 (11 ranks, 4 Dex-Mod, 2 from mastercraft tools)
My fort save a +9 (7 from multiclassing, 2 from my template)

The antagonist:
Destruction Trap
CR 8; DC 20 Fortitude save for 10d6 damage instead of 20d6; Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32.

The math:
Search: i need to roll minimum -> 18 (+14 = 32) | equals 85% fail chance
Disable device: i need to roll minimum -> 15 (+17 = 32) | equals 70% fail chance
Fort Save: i need to roll minimum -> 11 (+9 = 20) | equals 50% fail chance

The question:
Is it really the point of a rouge in D&D to die at least once every dungeon? :smalleek:
I mean i'm the one searching for the traps and when this is how traps work that seems to be a suicidemisson.

Is there anything we didn't understood? Like the right CR for traps is group ECL /2? I thought that might be it, because the highest CR for the Traps in DMG is 10.
And if not, what can i do to better my chance of not dying against traps?


I'm not a native english speaker and gave my best at doing so, if you can't understand something don't hesitate to ask. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

DC 32 at level 8 is extremely high. It sounds like your DM either doesn't know how to design traps, or is actively trying to kill you. (Or both.)

[Hiro Quester]

That's a pretty high DC for traps at your level, I think.


edit: Ninja'd

Got a party bard who can sing inspire competence for a plus to skill checks?

Other spells for a boost to skill checks like the party cleric or Druid casting guidance can be handy.

[animewatcha]

Search skill is Int mod not Wis mod.

[Inevitability]

I think this one is a classical case of the DM not wanting the rogue to bypass all traps and making the DC's related to them crazy high, followed by the rogue getting killed by the first trap able to do so.

Become a druid, start using animals to check for traps. Once you find one, dig/teleport around it instead of bothering to disarm it.

[OldTrees1]

The best rogues find/disable traps twice: once via skill checks and once via specific actions.

Ex:
Walking with a tower shield,
wearing heavy duty gloves,
plugging up holes in the walls,
rolling marbles in front of you,
sending in your pet "Miner's canary",
testing the ground with a stone brick,
while holding onto an inactive Immovable Rod

#1 + #5 or #6 should have negated that CR 8 trap(potentially at the cost of your pet or your mundane tower shield).

Warning to DMs: Your trap choices dictate how time consuming these specific actions are. #6 really slows down the game so it is usually best to avoid traps that require/reinforce #6.

[Milongo]

DC 32 at level 8 is extremely high. It sounds like your DM either doesn't know how to design traps, or is actively trying to kill you. (Or both.)

Yeah i thought that too but after looking in the Dungeon Masters Guide i found out the trap is a example trap for CR 8.


Got a party bard who can sing inspire competence for a plus to skill checks?

Other spells for a boost to skill checks like the party cleric or Druid casting guidance can be handy.

We have a Bard i will ask him what he can do, in generall the DM says that searching for traps is time consuming and so it seems some buffs don't last long enough.


Search skill is Int mod not Wis mod.

Oh thanks, got that confused. I will edit it, after all that means 1 point more wich is nice, but not nearly enough. :smallfrown:


I think this one is a classical case of the DM not wanting the rogue to bypass all traps and making the DC's related to them crazy high, followed by the rogue getting killed by the first trap able to do so.

Become a druid, start using animals to check for traps. Once you find one, dig/teleport around it instead of bothering to disarm it.

Yeah that would probally help but i really hoped there would be a way without rerolling the class / character concept.

[Psyren]

Yeah i thought that too but after looking in the Dungeon Masters Guide i found out the trap is a example trap for CR 8.

Well look at that, you're right. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr8DestructionTrap) What were they thinking?

Even after your 11 ranks you still need +11 in bonuses to even have a 50/50 shot at finding it.

[Milongo]

Walking with a tower shield,
wearing heavy duty gloves,
plugging up holes in the walls,
rolling marbles in front of you,
sending in your pet "Miner's canary",
testing the ground with a stone brick,
while holding onto an inactive Immovable Rod

Wow i just read something how strange and paranoide PC's behave and i find that helarious, after all my evil PC wouldn't mind to sacrifice a pet i think. That is something i will try from now on, thanks for the tipps! :smallamused:

[Drork]

The rogue in the description had a 52.25 % chance of living though the trap assuming he could take the 10D6 but not counting low rolls on the 20D6. Sure he only had a 4.5 % chance of disarming it. This is basically expected results from pitting a single character against a CR of their level. What the DM failed to consider is that this is the same as pitting a warrior solo against a creature of the same CR. Probably worse than that scenario because a warrior is normally optimized for fighting (magic items etc) where many rogues are not optimized for traps.

That being said the more players you can bring into trap finding the better making you able to over come higher DCs. The bard singing is an example as mentioned. Having a caster ready for a dispel if it is a magical attack. Remember readied actions are triggered by an action but before it lands (although in the case of traps DMs will request initiative checks). They would have gotten a dispel check against the Disintegrate (sure it would have been a reasonable chance to success chances 8th level caster dispelling a 10th level caster is a 40:60 backed up by the rogues 50:50 save). Having a fighter on hand to jump in the way of arrows and such with a tower shield can guard you from at least one direction (then again he might not jump in front of a green beam).
Also never underestimate UMD (use magical device) or abusing your other party members access to magic, foxes cunning increases you search check increasing your reflex save with cats grace for dex is also nice. Find traps cleric spell (higher than base caster level is a good idea). Guidance for + 1 skill check or + 1 save. Those are just a few examples of how powerful UMD can be.
(edit to include) Also never forget a rogue once he as checked an area ALWAYS offers for someone else to take the lead. "This Door is safe Ill stand back here well you open it for example."

The real problem with traps is you never know when you need to be on your guard. So abuse your casters for some divination magic, Augury will give you a good idea if you need to be on high alert. Gather information check could also help you out in that regard aka if they have someone who can make a disintegration trap it is reasonable that that information is floating around somewhere. Using other skills that might be less expected like for example using hide and sneak to follow a cultist into the lair to see them take special care when avoiding the disintegration trap lets you know there is something here and a sense motive might give you the idea of how bad that something is.

Talk to your DM and ask them how serious you should dive into trap scouting, should you be investing in magic items for finding traps the same way a fighter is investing in magic weapons. I suspect strongly this is a situation of a new DM not grasping how trap CRs interact with the party or rather do NOT interact with the rest of the party. Also keep in mind if you are solo disarming traps demand all the XP for yourself as you soloed the encounter (to encourage other people to help you in above mentioned ways). However given your an outsider you are rolling a new character. Just dont be a rogue and either watch the traps disappear or your party get rolled over and over by the traps till the DM works out where trap CR's should be then remake a rogue and enjoy a fair go at disarming.

[OldTrees1]

Wow i just read something how strange and paranoide PC's behave and i find that helarious, after all my evil PC wouldn't mind to sacrifice a pet i think. That is something i will try from now on, thanks for the tipps! :smallamused:

Paranoid? Sure the pet and stone brick are paranoia but the rest just the result of the knowledge inherent in the Trapfinding class feature(which most players do not also have).

Other pieces of that knowledge:
Where are logical places for traps?
There are more ways to move through a room than through a hall than through a doorway. Thus traps tend to be located near doors and other choke points. Note that points of interest inside a room(like a chest) also act like choke points. (Consider standing outside of the choke point while checking it for traps)

Traps tend to be correlated with or inversely correlated with high traffic areas. If the trap owners can easily bypass the traps then they feel more secure with the traps in high traffic areas. If the traps are hard to bypass then they are less likely in high traffic areas.

Traps built by people with Trap lore tend to have multiple layers so that the easy answer to the first trap falls into the second trap. Say an illusion of a 10ft long pit followed by a hidden pit. (Strangely enough marbles can find this trap or an immovable rod can negate the trap)

Oh one more point. A bunch of easy to spot traps followed by an important choke point with either no trap or a very easy to disarm trap is probably actually a really hard to spot trap. (Source: The book "Silverthorn" from the Rift War saga)

[Milongo]

Thank you all, for the Help. I will work something out with my DM and hope for the best. These tips will help me alot! :smallbiggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Get a wand of Wings of Cover and the UMD to use it. If you trigger a trap that has a single target effect use it to block the effect. It's also useful in battle.
Another useful item is the Shadow Cloak (DotU). It allows you to teleport 10ft as an immediate action 3/day, so you can use it to get out of area effect traps.

Neither item is that expensive, and they're both useful even when you're not trapfinding.

Then there's Longspoon Thieves Tools (CAdv), which allow you to disable traps from 5ft away. It doesn't help against all traps, but the classic poisoned needle or similar traps are a non-issue.

Other useful items: Bag of Tricks (the gray variety will do), Chronocharm of the Laughing Rogue (MIC), Lens of Detection (DMG), Goggles of Minute Seeing (MIC), a wand of Spontaneous Search (SpC), some way to get Detect Magic (to notice magical traps, which are the most dangerous).

Further, try to get everyone in the party the ability to make a DC 10 search check, so they can help with teamwork checks. Buffs like Heroism, Fox's Cunning, etc. are also nice.

[Sith_Happens]

This is basically expected results from pitting a single character against a CR of their level.

This. The way the CR system interacts with the way a typical party handles traps really should have been spelled out somewhere in the "Traps" section. Specifically, most DMs will think "The party is Xth level, therefore I should be using the CR X traps," which is wrong because usually only one character will actually be interacting with the trap in any meaningful way. A challenging trap for a party with only one trapfinder is CR (X-4), just like if you were planning a fight for a single character.

[Psyren]

The rogue in the description had a 52.25 % chance of living though the trap assuming he could take the 10D6 but not counting low rolls on the 20D6. Sure he only had a 4.5 % chance of disarming it. This is basically expected results from pitting a single character against a CR of their level. What the DM failed to consider is that this is the same as pitting a warrior solo against a creature of the same CR.


This. The way the CR system interacts with the way a typical party handles traps really should have been spelled out somewhere in the "Traps" section. Specifically, most DMs will think "The party is Xth level, therefore I should be using the CR X traps," which is wrong because usually only one character will actually be interacting with the trap in any meaningful way. A challenging trap for a party with only one trapfinder is CR (X-4), just like if you were planning a fight for a single character.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this analogy at all. If you look at the CR 8 traps in core, there is a fairly wide variance - about half are DC 32, with the rest falling in the much more manageable-at-8th-level DC 24-27 range. In the CR 7 set, a little less than half are DC 31, with one at 29 and the rest falling in the 21-27 range - again, very doable solo. This pattern repeats itself at most CRs - most traps at a given rung have manageable DCs, while there are a chunk that are basically designed to screw over the rogue. An equal-CR fight solo is supposed to just be challenging, not "you need a +11 modifier after your skill ranks just to fail half the time."

Most parties will only have one trapfinder. That was a baseline assumption of the game; every time they mention the iconic playtest party, Lidda is off scouting ahead (or reporting back from scouting ahead) while Mialee, Jozan, Tordek et al. are hanging back and picking their noses. Traps were intended to be soloed by the trap guy/chick, and in 3.5, the others can't even help her (outside of specific spells) because they lack Trapfinding themselves. It's not comparable to pitting a solo character against a monster of their CR because in that scenario, the rest of the party can jump in to help at any time. With a trap, it's pass/fail, and by the time you think you might need help, too late, make a fort/will save. (Or no save at all, for some.) Even if the solo character is truly on their own, they can at least attempt to flee if they feel outmatched. A trap encounter meanwhile is over with by the time you know it is there, and the consequences can be long-lasting.

Compare to Pathfinder - the earliest you'll find a DC 32 or higher trap is CR 10; the highest DC in the CR 8 range is 30, and most are ~25. Searching is a move action, and it doesn't require Trapfinding anymore, so the entire party can keep an eye out (or Aid the Rogue in her search.) The traps themselves are also less harsh - no instagib trap at CR 8 for example.

[Xelbiuj]

Could the demon cult even really afford a 45.5k trap? Hell, they're working out of a cave.

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

I think we're actually agreeing. When I said "challenging" I meant in the CR-system sense, as in "you should be able to go through four of these in a day with little chance of dying." Which, for a single ECL 8 character, is what a CR 4 is. A one-on-one CR = ECL encounter, on the other hand, is supposed to be a coin toss, which is what the Destruction trap approximately comes out to.

[Psyren]

I think we're actually agreeing. When I said "challenging" I meant in the CR-system sense, as in "you should be able to go through four of these in a day with little chance of dying." Which, for a single ECL 8 character, is what a CR 4 is. A one-on-one CR = ECL encounter, on the other hand, is supposed to be a coin toss, which is what the Destruction trap approximately comes out to.

I agree - the problem though is that (as I mentioned above) all traps are essentially solo encounters, so having them be a coin toss - even worse, a coin toss vs. instant death - even when you optimize isn't really fair to that player. If he fails that save he is capital-D done.

[SinsI]

The antagonist:
Destruction Trap
CR 8; DC 20 Fortitude save for 10d6 damage instead of 20d6; Search DC 32; Disable Device DC 32.

Search: i need to roll minimum -> 18 (+14 = 32) | equals 85% fail chance

Is this some kind of custom version? Normal Destruction Trap just destroys you on failed save.

You having +14 means if you take 20 you discover that trap. Have the DM given any hints that the room was trapped? Unattended traps like this tend to produce quite some garbage.

[OldTrees1]

I agree - the problem though is that (as I mentioned above) all traps are essentially solo encounters, so having them be a coin toss - even worse, a coin toss vs. instant death - even when you optimize isn't really fair to that player. If he fails that save he is capital-D done.

Early traps(DMG) tend to fall into this coin toss problem(with various win/die ratios) because anything else can be recovered from before encountering further danger. While this is one of the realistic uses of traps, I agree that it isn't really fair to that player. The paranoid non dice approach probably evolved out of players trying to circumvent this coin toss design. However frequently this causes players to either be "not paranoid enough" or slow down the game with excessive paranoia. Personally I think DMs should try to use alternatives to the coin toss design. Either by using traps to enhance an encounter(aka monster + trap) or to use traps that take more than 1 coin toss(aka Encounter Traps and traps with duration).

[Psyren]

Personally I think DMs should try to use alternatives to the coin toss design. Either by using traps to enhance an encounter(aka monster + trap) or to use traps that take more than 1 coin toss(aka Encounter Traps and traps with duration).

Indeed, these are much better ways to handle traps in both systems.

[Surpriser]

First a minor point: The destruction trap given in the SRD has a touch trigger - so no "green-beaming" you just because you failed the search check. There has to be some item to touch that triggers the trap.
The same trap with a proximity trigger (that goes off if you simply come near it) would probably warrant a higher CR.

The other point: While the example traps in the SRD tell you the mechanics of these traps (and given that they have a simple pit trap listed at CR 9, you should not rely on that too much either), they do not tell you how to use them correctly. Placing traps at random points in the dungeon is just wrong, buth from an in-universe and a metagame perspective.
It should not be necessary to check every single hallway and every single door for traps. They should only be placed at points where their placement makes sense and can be anticipated by the players/characters (either by being an obvious place to trap, like the pedestal of the MacGuffin or by there being obvious signs, like holes in the wall or traces of prior victims).

Still, probably the safest way to find traps is using a proxy. This could be a literal trap-monkey, a brick on a rope, a skeleton, the party fighter, an obnoxious NPC, whatever. As long as the trap will not hit you if it springs.

[Telok]

Back in AD&D days I had one character who went around with a pet pig that was trained to fetch gold coins if you threw them.

Sir Bacon was a good pig.

[Sith_Happens]

I agree - the problem though is that (as I mentioned above) all traps are essentially solo encounters, so having them be a coin toss - even worse, a coin toss vs. instant death - even when you optimize isn't really fair to that player. If he fails that save he is capital-D done.

We're still agreeing. Neither I nor Drork have yet said whether single-trapfinder parties should be regularly encountering CR = APL traps (they shouldn't), merely that this is the sort of thing they can expect if they are.