Sorcerous Origin Bonus Spells

[Kryx]

With the release of Favored Soul (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes) and Storm Sorcerer (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf) I'd like to update my Sorcerer buffs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387885-Sorcerer-Balance-(Buffs)) to give Draconic Bloodline and Wild Magic additional known spells.

Template: each bloodline gets spells at each of the listed level. I've expanded the Storm Sorcerer's template to give one 6th level spell. You can choose to ignore this if you want.

EDIT: July 27th, 2016: I'm working on a Sorcerer Rework. See Kryx's Sorcerer Rework (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJkLv-WO) or the discussion thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495592-Sorcerer-Rework). This is still very much a work in progress and probably won't be done for another week or two.

I would still recommend the following for minimal changes:

Use Spell Points from the DMG
Add 10 spells from a set list for each archetype
Use the Wizard's Spell list, adding on the less than 5 spells that the Sorcerer has and the Wizard doesn't.
Add a short rest recovery to spells at 5th level ("At 5th level you regain 2 expended spell points whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th level, 4 at 15th level, and 5 at 20th level")




Spells Known Concerns: The spells are limited in choice so therefore the increase in diversity is somewhat limited.
24 spells known is not beyond the power level that the sorcerer should be at.

The Arcane Trickster (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Bard knows 16 +6 from any class plus an additional 2 from any class if college of lore is taken for a total of 22-24 with 6-8 from any class..
The Cleric can prepare 25+10 of his spells.
The Druid can prepare 25+8 of his spells.
The Eldritch Knight (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20 and has 10 oath spells for a total of 23-25 prepared spells at 20.
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem). He can prepare 25+2.


Elemental Affinity: Remove the Sorcery point cost to gain the resistance. Bronze and Blue Dragons add their Charisma modifier for Thunder damage in addition to Lightning Damage.



Sorcerer Level
Spell Level
Draconic Bloodline
Favored Soul
Storm Sorcerer
Wild Mage


1st
1st
Absorb ElementsEE +

Acid: Eroding Mist1
Cold: Ice KnifeEE
Fire: Burning Hands
Lightning: Witch Bolt
Poison: Ray of Sickness
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Fog Cloud,
Thunderwave
Color Spray,
Shield


3rd
2nd
Absorb ElementsEE +

Acid: Melf's Acid Arrow
Cold: Snilloc’s Snowball SwarmEE
Fire: Scorching Ray
Lightning: Aggressive Thundercloud2, Shatter
Poison: Web, Whip of Spiders5
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Gust of Wind,
Levitate
Crown of Madness,
Mirror Image


5th
3rd
Fear +

Acid: Hunger of Hadar
Cold: Sleet Storm
Fire: Fireball
Lightning: Lightning Bolt
Poison: Stinking Cloud
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Call Lightning,
Tidal Wave
Gaseous Form,
Tongues


7th
4th
Elemental Bane +

Acid: Vitriolic SphereEE
Cold: Ice Storm
Fire: Wall of Fire
Lightning: Storm SphereEE
Poison: Blight
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Control Water,
Storm SphereEE
Confusion,
Polymorph


9th
5th
Dominate Person +

Acid: Acidic Spray3
Cold: Cone of Cold
Fire: ImmolationEE
Lightning: Lightning Arc4
Poison: Cloudkill
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Control Winds, MaelstromEE
Animate Objects, Creation


1 Eroding Mist is a refluffed version of Burning Hands that does acid damage instead of fire.
2 Aggressive Thundercloud is a refluffed version of Flaming Sphere that flies and does lightning damage. See Below. Aggressive Thundercloud from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aggressive-thundercloud).
3 Acidic Spray is a refluffed version of Cone of Cold that does acid damage instead of cold. A creature killed in this way is stuck in Rigor Mortis. Acidic Spray from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acidic-spray).
4 Lightning Arc based on Cone of Cold and Lightning Arc from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lightning-arc). See Below


Aggressive Thundercloud
2nd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a piece of tree struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A 5-foot-diameter sphere of crackling storm clouds appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range and lasts for the duration. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of the sphere must make a Dexterity saving throw. The creature takes 2d6 lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. As a bonus action, you can make the sphere fly up to 20 feet. If the sphere enters space that contains a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the sphere’s damage, and the sphere stops moving this turn. The sphere ignites flammable objects not being worn or carried, and it sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.

Lightning Arc
5th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You generate an arc of lightning between two targets that are no more than 60 feet apart. Both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 8d8 lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The spell fails if there is no line of effect between the targets. Lightning arc sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path. It can melt metals that have a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot above 5th.

[Wartex1]

You could use Protection from Energy for the Draconic Sorcerer.

[asorel]

For fear of necro'ing the first thread, I'll iterate my concerns here.

As was mentioned in another thread, the newer archetypes posted are heavy on passive abilities, as well as the aforementioned bonus spell list. In light of this, it appears that either the sorcery point costs on the base archetypes be removed, or a tax be added on the abilities of the newer archetypes. I'm personally of the mind that sorcery points are already fully allocated to spell metamagic, and to a lesser extent more spell slots, which makes it advisable to remove the cost on the base archetypes. Draconic is the only archetype with which I have experience, so I will be focusing on that bloodline.

I would remove the point cost from Elemental Affinity outright, and make it permanent resistance. Dragon Wings is fine for the most part, though I'm inclined to alter it to twice your move speed (including penalties to speed from armor or anything else) in lieu of the Storm origin. I'm not an expert in spell balance by any means, but Draconic Presence seems overvalued as costing the equivalent to a 5th-level spell. Should the cost be reduced? Or should the ability just be altered to recharge on a short rest? Finally, Sorcerous Restoration is an underwhelming capstone. I would shunt this directly to 5th level, create a scaling variant that comes online earlier. The capstone would have to be replaced, of course, though I'm not sure with what.

Also, your spell list looks great. I would have used Melf's Minute Meteors over Fire Arrows, but that's personal preference.

[Kryx]

I think making the other bonuses from origin/type be equal is a good idea. What you wrote above sounds fair, though I'd have to examine it further tomorrow.

I do agree the capstone is weak. Though giving the Sorc the recharge at 5 could be too early - it's hard to say. I like the idea of at-will mastery that you mentioned in the other thread, but I feel it could be more exciting.

Minute meteors could be a better choice. I'll compare those again tomorrow.

[asorel]

I think making the other bonuses from origin/type be equal is a good idea. What you wrote above sounds fair, though I'd have to examine it further tomorrow.

I do agree the capstone is weak. Though giving the Sorc the recharge at 5 could be too early - it's hard to say. I like the idea of at-will mastery that you mentioned in the other thread, but I feel it could be more exciting.

Minute meteors could be a better choice. I'll compare those again tomorrow.

It is a bit derivative of the Wizard's capstone, but you have to start somewhere. Whatever it is, I think it should be focused on metamagic somehow. It's the central feature of the Sorcerer, but it's remarkably undertoned in the features list.

[SharkForce]

It is a bit derivative of the Wizard's capstone, but you have to start somewhere. Whatever it is, I think it should be focused on metamagic somehow. It's the central feature of the Sorcerer, but it's remarkably undertoned in the features list.

apart from archetype abilities, it's pretty much the *only* feature of the sorcerer other than spellcasting. it can't really help but be central. particularly since sorcerer spellcasting is so limited compared to other classes.

on the plus side, if the sorcerer was to get a buff in the sense that it had more than one class feature, i'd feel a lot more comfortable with a feat to allow a single daily use of a limited list metamagic abilities that someone suggested in another thread. at present, you pretty much have to restrict metamagic to sorcerers exclusively because that is basically the entirety of the sorcerer class.

i really really wanted to like the 5e sorcerer. but wizards made it really hard for me to. i liked the 3.x sorcerer conceptually. i liked the pathfinder sorcerer a lot. the 4e sorcerer sucked hardcore (but then, so did basically every other 4e "caster" class as far as i'm concerned... though frankly, sorcerer sucked more, mostly because it went in exactly the direction i least wanted it to go in).

i love the idea of the sorcerer as a focused caster. having a limited selection from a general spell list and then a set selection of themed spells that your specific sorcerer archetype gets is, in my opinion, a brilliant way of handling the class (though i slightly wish their spells known feature went up to 6th level spells, as i feel there are some very well-themed spells at that level).

giving them short-rest recovery of sorcery points would go a long ways towards restoring the 3.x sorcerer feel as well (few spells known, spontaneous casting, casts more often than others) as well. maybe to really emphasize the spontaneous casting they could use the spell point variant even if nobody else is.

[DivisibleByZero]

As I stated in the other thread, I don't give Sorcerers both of these spells for free.
These spells are added to their list, so they can learn them both if they want to. But only one of them (their choice) is given for free and doesn't count against spells known.

Draconic, Acid type:
level 1: eroding mist (refluff burning hands to acid damage), fog cloud
level 2: acid cloud (refluff cloud of daggers to acid damage), Melf's acid arrow
level 3: hunger of hadar, protection from energy
level 4: acid rain (refluff ice storm), vitriolic sphere
level 5: acid fog (refluff cloudkill to acid damage), acid blast (refluff cone of cold to acid damage)

Draconic, Cold type:
level 1: ice knife, create or destroy water
level 2: Snilloc's snowball swarm, geyser (refluff gust of wind to water - bludgeoning damage)
level 3: sleet storm, wall of water
level 4: ice storm, watery sphere
level 5: cone of cold, maelstrom

Draconic, Fire type:
level 1: control flames, searing smite
level 2: continual flame, flame blade
level 3: flame arrows, fireball
level 4: fire shield, wall of fire
level 5: flame strike, immolation

Draconic, Lightning type:
level 1: thunderous smite, witch bolt
level 2: dust devil, warding wind
level 3: call lightning, wind wall
level 4: storm sphere, freedom of movement
level 5: conjure elemental (air only), control winds

Draconic, Poison type:
level 1: detect poison and disease, ray of sickness
level 2: protection from poison, ray of enfeeblement
level 3: gaseous form, stinking cloud
level 4: blight, Evard's black tentacles (already restrained = poison damage)
level 5: cloudkill, contagion

Wild Magic:
level 1: chromatic orb, color spray
level 2: crown of madness, silence
level 3: bestow curse, hypnotic pattern
level 4: confusion, Otiluke's resilient sphere
level 5: wall of force, geas

[SharkForce]

oh, and uh, just for the record... you should probably be able to summon invisible stalkers with the storm sorcerer's conjure elementals.

[Dralnu]

Having played both Dragon and Wild (currently lvl 7), I love these changes. If I played with homebrew, this is what I'd use.

I'd also go further with Wild Sorcerer overhaul, but that's another story. The bonus spells are good!

[asorel]

What about removing the limit of one metamagic effect per spell cast? The main power issue I see is Twinning a Heightened save-or-suck spell, but that's going to eat up sorcery points pretty quickly. What if it was stipulated that Twinning a spell already metamagic'd requires sorcery points to be spend on each copy for the effect to apply to both versions? For example, if you Twin and Heighten Hold Person, but only pay the sorcery cost for Heighten once, one of the targets receives disadvantage but not the other.

[ChubbyRain]

This screams homebrew.

[Dralnu]

What about removing the limit of one metamagic effect per spell cast? The main power issue I see is Twinning a Heightened save-or-suck spell, but that's going to eat up sorcery points pretty quickly. What if it was stipulated that Twinning a spell already metamagic'd requires sorcery points to be spend on each copy for the effect to apply to both versions? For example, if you Twin and Heighten Hold Person, but only pay the sorcery cost for Heighten once, one of the targets receives disadvantage but not the other.

That's a change that doesn't address any sorcerer problems though. Twinning or Heightening a spell is already very strong. If anything, making Sorcerers too good at going nova (aka Boss Killing) would create a new problem entirely.

[asorel]

That's a change that doesn't address any sorcerer problems though. Twinning or Heightening a spell is already very strong. If anything, making Sorcerers too good at going nova (aka Boss Killing) would create a new problem entirely.

Got it. Just throwing ideas around. Just to clarify, what are your problems specifically with the Sorcerer? The spell-deprivation that seems to be a common sentiment, or something else as well?

[SharkForce]

Got it. Just throwing ideas around. Just to clarify, what are your problems specifically with the Sorcerer? The spell-deprivation that seems to be a common sentiment, or something else as well?

very limited spells known, limited spell list, basic lack of class features in general, unimpressive nature of the few class features they have, lack of unique abilities, lack of variety in metamagic options, not getting a decent progression rate in metamagic options, and the fact that because the entire class essentially revolves around metamagic and trades everything for it you can't let anyone else have even a tiny amount of access to metamagic without taking away the only thing the sorcerer has going for it, thus making metamagic essentially unavailable to anyone else unless you do a major rework of the sorcerer class.

[asorel]

very limited spells known, limited spell list, basic lack of class features in general, unimpressive nature of the few class features they have, lack of unique abilities, lack of variety in metamagic options, not getting a decent progression rate in metamagic options, and the fact that because the entire class essentially revolves around metamagic and trades everything for it you can't let anyone else have even a tiny amount of access to metamagic without taking away the only thing the sorcerer has going for it, thus making metamagic essentially unavailable to anyone else unless you do a major rework of the sorcerer class.

Fair enough. I'm personally fine with metamagic being sorcerer-only, regardless of its power level. Barring the capstone, I'm not unsatisfied with the class's features conceptually (a few tweaks couldn't hurt), but I agree that there could be more of them.

I'm not sure where I stand with metamagic progression. It would make sense, but similar features, such as Fighting Styles and Battlemaster maneuvers work the same. Maybe it's purely for simplicity's sake, maybe there is a balance issue this addresses that I am not seeing.

[Battlebooze]

The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem).
The Bard knows 22+6 from any class plus an additional 2 if college of lore is taken for a total of 28-30.
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20.

Not to be nit-picky, but a bard only knows 22 spells, +2 more if they are from the College of lore. The Bards basic 6 Magical Secrets spells are included in the total of 22.

I wish they got 28 to 30 spells. :D

[Kryx]

...
Thanks for sharing! I'll sort through and add some to the list above.


This screams homebrew.
There are several other other posts on the front page of similar content type. The homebrew forum is terribly positioned and has next to no readership as a result. Fix homebrew forum and we may see some of the content move there.
That said it is relevant here with the release of Storm Sorcerer in the latest UA post which is being discussed here.
Items on the front page that are homebrew:

List of Mostly Useless Magic Items
What I'd Like To See Added to 5E - Weapon Comparison
Crowdsourced Fix of Way of the Four Elements Monk Subclass
Mithral/Adamantine Weapons
Making the dump stats useful




Not to be nit-picky, but a bard only knows 22 spells, +2 more if they are from the College of lore. The Bards basic 6 Magical Secrets spells are included in the total of 22.
I wish they got 28 to 30 spells. :D
Fixed, thanks! So in that case the bard would receive either 2 less or the same amount as proposed for the Sorcerer. 6-8 of which are from any class and are higher level spells. Still much better than what is being given to the Sorc.


very limited spells known, limited spell list, basic lack of class features in general...
This is being discussed in the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413381-OMFG-minatour-are-a-legal-player-race-now-and-more-stuff) and should likely continue there. Revamping the Sorc class is beyond the scope of this thread. This thread is mainly about bonus spells and tweaking the archetypes to be of equal balance. Tweaks to the class like capstone are a bit borderline, but no need to open a new thread unless it gets argumentative imo.

[Strill]

For fear of necro'ing the first thread, I'll iterate my concerns here.

As was mentioned in another thread, the newer archetypes posted are heavy on passive abilities, as well as the aforementioned bonus spell list.

You can't compare them based on the number of features. For example, the Extra Attack on Favored soul is effectively aesthetic, because its damage is no better than a cantrip.

You have to look at those abilities which expand the class's base capabilities, not those which are redundant.

[asorel]

You can't compare them based on the number of features. For example, the Extra Attack on Favored soul is effectively aesthetic, because its damage is no better than a cantrip.

You have to look at those abilities which expand the class's base capabilities, not those which are redundant.

I was basing my concerns based on which abilities did and did not use sorcery points, rather than their number. Extra Attack did not factor into my issues.

[Kryx]

I've added 6th level spells to the list above. As Sharkforce said there is a good amount of flavor here. Even with a 25th spell the Sorc is still hugely limited with high level spells. They would have 2 6th, 1 7th, 1 8th and 1 9th spell. Whereas a Wizard has 2 of each by default (and can learn), a bard has 1 of each plus 2 additional 7th level and 9th level spells.


I also posted 3 ports (2 more to do) and many refluffs of spells to fill in the gaps. The ports and refluffs have a ton of flavor imo.
I'll port the other 2 shortly. That should fill all the gaps and then I'll codify the sorcerery points cost for draconic bloodline stuff.

[asorel]

I also posted 3 ports (2 more to do) and many refluffs of spells to fill in the gaps. The ports and refluffs have a ton of flavor imo.
I'll port the other 2 shortly. That should fill all the gaps and then I'll codify the sorcerery points cost for draconic.

When you say 'Draconic,' do you mean the bloodline or the language?

[Eriol]

As I stated in the other thread, I don't give Sorcerers both of these spells for free.
These spells are added to their list, so they can learn them both if they want to. But only one of them (their choice) is given for free and doesn't count against spells known.
I 100% agree with this. Both on list is OK, but give only one for free.

I also agree that something needs to happen for the capstone, but again, it needs consideration. The existing one at earlier levels with a bit of a "more as you go higher" has appeal, but again, balance, and what will the capstone be then?


Honestly I'd do the same with warlocks for their patron spells, but that's a big derail.

[Kryx]

When you say 'Draconic,' do you mean the bloodline or the language?
Bloodline. Edited.



I 100% agree with this. Both on list is OK, but give only one for free.
I don't understand the logic of limiting Sorcs to 15+5 spells from a very limited list. It's so limiting and even if you give the full spell slots they're behind other classes in terms of power/versatility.
If they were more powerful then I could see this argument, but they are not.

[archaeo]

Personally, I see the Storm Sorcerer's added spells as roughly balanced against Draconic; they're all just different flavors of damage and some moderate utility, after all, and you can't actually cast more magic, just a somewhat greater variety. Wild Magic is a different case; it's easily the most niche archetype in the PHB, and it's heavily dependent on the DM. It's also all of one-and-a-half PHB pages, and it's not hard to see how it's mostly included for the nostalgia factor. Plus, if you and the DM agree to roll plenty of Wild Magic checks, it can be very powerful indeed.


I also agree that something needs to happen for the capstone, but again, it needs consideration.

I generally think it's ok for the casters to have somewhat lackluster capstones, as at level 20, they're already working with a pretty ridiculous set of abilities, including level 9 spells.

The problem is the idea of the "capstone," which isn't a concept the actual books ever bring up. Aesthetically, I see the value in providing one last big ability/feature at the last level of the game, but the 5e designers kind of spread that over level 17-20 instead. edit: I do think Draconic Presence is a bit underpowered for level 18, but it's also far better than the level 3 spell slot you can get for the same number of sorcery points.

edited to add:


I don't understand the logic of limiting Sorcs to 15+5 spells from a very limited list. It's so limiting and even if you give the full spell slots they're behind other classes in terms of power/versatility.
If they were more powerful then I could see this argument, but they are not.

Well, there's definitely a design niche for "powerful but limited spellcaster." They have just as many raw spell slots as Wizards, just a smaller list of spells to choose from. In exchange, they get sorcery points, which either allow them to a) cast more spells per day than any other caster, or b) dramatically change the spell effects using metamagic. They're designed to be less versatile, but I have a hard time believing they're really that much less powerful than the other classes.

[Kryx]

Well, there's definitely a design niche for "powerful but limited spellcaster." They have just as many raw spell slots as Wizards, just a smaller list of spells to choose from. In exchange, they get sorcery points, which either allow them to a) cast more spells per day than any other caster, or b) dramatically change the spell effects using metamagic. They're designed to be less versatile, but I have a hard time believing they're really that much less powerful than the other classes.
There is indeed a niche for more limited, but more powerful spellcaster. Unfortunately the Sorcerer fulfils the more limited aspect, but does not fulfil the more powerful aspect.

Even assuming 25 spells known they have a much smaller list than a Wizard and most of their spells are of lower level. So even if the Sorcerer was of equal or greater power the limitation would still be significant.

Though this has been debated on many threads and I have no desire to debate it further. It is happening in the other thread that I linked above if you care to discuss it there.

[asorel]

I generally think it's ok for the casters to have somewhat lackluster capstones, as at level 20, they're already working with a pretty ridiculous set of abilities, including level 9 spells.

The problem is the idea of the "capstone," which isn't a concept the actual books ever bring up. Aesthetically, I see the value in providing one last big ability/feature at the last level of the game, but the 5e designers kind of spread that over level 17-20 instead.

While that isn't an unreasonable view to take, it isn't the case for other casters. Clerics get Divine Intervention to auto-succeed, Druids receive unlimited wildshapes per day, Wizards get a free 3rd level spell per rest, though that's arguably not as good as Signature Spell.

[archaeo]

Though this has been debated on many threads and I have no desire to debate it further. It is happening in the other thread that I linked above if you care to discuss it there.

I don't think it's off-topic to point out that your proposed changes tend toward overpowering the Sorcerer. But I'll leave it at that, if you don't want to talk about it.


While that isn't an unreasonable view to take, it isn't the case for other casters. Clerics get Divine Intervention to auto-succeed, Druids receive unlimited wildshapes per day, Wizards get a free 3rd level spell per rest, though that's arguably not as good as Signature Spell.

Divine Intervention is, at best, a 1/week wish spell that's tilted toward the Cleric spell list and is entirely dependent on the DM. Archdruid is obviously a powerful ability, but at level 20, few shapes will be useful in combat, making it a mostly defensive/exploratory ability. Wizards' capstone is far weaker than either of those, and arguably weaker than Sorcerer's, since those four sorcery points are far more flexible than a pair of level 3 spells.

Not that I think comparing capstones is very valuable, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Kryx]

Ported Agressive Thundercloud and Ice Slick. Basically Flaming Sphere and a lower damage Shatter+grease.

Removed the cost from Elemental Affinity and reduced the cost on Draconic Presence to 3 (equivalent to a 2nd level spell slot via "Creating Spell Slots")




I don't think it's off-topic to point out that your proposed changes tend toward overpowering the Sorcerer. But I'll leave it at that, if you don't want to talk about it.
I don't mean to fully shut down conversation, but if you look at that other thread you can see where the debate will go. Obviously people have very different views of the Sorcerer. I haven't kept up fully with that thread, but I have not seen a pure sorcerer beat a pure wizard in much at all. If you'd like to dispute the information that I put above please do. I'd be surprised to see a factor of the Sorcerer that overcomes anything the Wizard has to offer, much less to the point of making up a significantly smaller spell pool and spells known pool.

The other factor is WotC has already heard the community via feedback and decided that the route I'm suggesting is the direction they're going with on all new Sorcerer Origins. What others are suggesting in limiting the Storm & Favored Soul is the limiting houserule. What I'm doing is making the old, weaker, Origins competitive with the new standard (plus added my own houserule to add a 6th level spell).

[archaeo]

I don't mean to fully shut down conversation, but if you look at that other thread you can see where the debate will go. Obviously people have very different views of the Sorcerer. I haven't kept up fully with that thread, but I have not seen a pure sorcerer beat a pure wizard in much at all. If you'd like to dispute the information that I put above please do. I'd be surprised to see a factor of the Sorcerer that overcomes anything the Wizard has to offer, much less to the point of making up a significantly smaller spell pool and spells known pool.

A pure Sorcerer can always cast a spell better than a Wizard could've with the same spell. A pure Sorcerer will also always be able to cast more spells per day. Sorcery points are a potent resource. You get that in exchange for less versatility and a reduced selection of spells. That seems balanced to me. Adding an extra 10 spells on top of the 15 Sorcerers already get takes away the only limitation Sorcerers have, in my opinion, unless those spells are extremely limited, like the UA examples. I tend to think your homebrew here would simply lead to Sorcerers being outright better than Wizards in most circumstances.

Of course, I'm not running the numbers, and it doesn't appear like you are either. It's worth playtesting to find out!


The other factor is WotC has already heard the community via feedback and decided that the route I'm suggesting is the direction they're going with on all new Sorcerer Origins. What others are suggesting in limiting the Storm & Favored Soul is the limiting houserule. What I'm doing is making the old, weaker, Origins competitive with the new standard.

Actually, WotC said:


For instance, we’ve heard consistent feedback that the sorcerer doesn’t offer enough options within the class. Not everyone is excited about the wild mage, thus leaving some players with only the dragon sorcerer as an option. It’s no coincidence that we showed off a favored soul option for the sorcerer in Unearthed Arcana. Plus, we have another sorcerer option on tap for that article series.

This doesn't sound like they're establishing a new Sorcerer norm, just that they're interested in expanding the selection of subclasses. Storm Sorcerer gets a really limited set of additional spells, several of which are directly nerfed, while Favored Soul ends up with utility or healing (or damage, if they're trying to get utility/control from the Sorcerer spell list instead) in exchange for getting split between a few different niches.

That said, we'll see what's up in the future. Like I said in the other thread, maybe this is a trial balloon; maybe, internally, they agree with you re: the Sorcerer's limited spell list, and these new classes are tests for expanding that. I think it's more likely that Mearls & Co. are looking for easy design space to take advantage of, and the "10 extra domain spells" mechanic is low-hanging fruit that provides more choices to the player, which will always be popular.

[Kryx]

BLAAAAH here we go again......





A pure Sorcerer can always cast a spell better than a Wizard could've with the same spell.
How? Compare Wizard school vs Sorcerer Origin & Metamagic. There are some advantages to Metamagic, but a lot of that can be dona via Wizard School. This is outlined in the other thread quite well.


A pure Sorcerer will also always be able to cast more spells per day.
A Sorcerer can burn all of his Sorcery points to get spells back, correct. To do so he must give up the other unique aspects of doing interesting things - mostly a fair trade. A wizard on the other hand automatically recovers spell slots once per day.

At 10 a Sorcerer can spend all 10 Sorcery points to recover a 5th and a 2nd or a 3rd, 2nd, and 1st
At 10 a Wizard can recover spells equal to 5th level slot (a 5th, a 4th and a 1st, a 3rd and a 2nd, etc)

Based on those numbers The Sorcerer can burn all of their unique abilities to have 1 more spell slot per day than the Wizard who can do so while still being able to do other things that make his class unique.



Sorcery points are a potent resource. You get that in exchange for less versatility and a reduced selection of spells. That seems balanced to me.
The concept is balanced. The execution is terrible. Again, the numbers:
Wizards get 44 spells, 2 at each higher level and can learn an unlimited amount. They can prepare 25 total each day. They have a much larger spell pool to choose spells from.
Sorcerer gets 15 (or 24/25) spells known. Most are lower level with only 1 of each 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level. They have a much more limited spell pool to choose spells from.

Even assuming the Sorcerer gets 25 spells they are significantly hindered by having less higher level spells and a reduced spell pool. If you fixed one of those other things then there is an argument to be made, but to to have all 3 worse is a cost that is way too high.



Adding an extra 10 spells on top of the 15 Sorcerers already get takes away the only limitation Sorcerers have, in my opinion, unless those spells are extremely limited, like the UA examples.
The spells I listed above are extremely limited. And again are of lower level.



I tend to think your homebrew here would simply lead to Sorcerers being outright better than Wizards in most circumstances.

Of course, I'm not running the numbers, and it doesn't appear like you are either. It's worth playtesting to find out!
Please provide proof of how. As you say your opinion is not informed based on numbers or examples.





Actually, WotC said:

This doesn't sound like they're establishing a new Sorcerer norm, just that they're interested in expanding the selection of subclasses.
WotC (Rodney) also said that the "whole package" of the Favored Soul was equal to the other Sorcerous Origins even with 10 more spells known. He also said that they wouldn't be doing this on other Sorcerous Origins.

The two most recently released Sorcerous Origins are quite evidently more powerful than the old ones. Adjusting the spell slots to match makes them mostly competetive.



Storm Sorcerer gets a really limited set of additional spells, several of which are directly nerfed, while Favored Soul ends up with utility or healing (or damage, if they're trying to get utility/control from the Sorcerer spell list instead) in exchange for getting split between a few different niches.
And Dragon, who is focused on damage, gets damage spells and the Wild Mage whose theme is Quirkiness gets Quirky spells. All the limited spells have to fit the theme.




I think it's more likely that Mearls & Co. are looking for easy design space to take advantage of, and the "10 extra domain spells" mechanic is low-hanging fruit that provides more choices to the player, which will always be popular.
This is more conjecture and gut feelings without numbers or examples. I provided reasons and examples above which show why this change is more balanced.

[Kryx]

Some example comparisons of Metamagic vs Wizard Stuff from the other thread:


As stated by the others, that's your opinion. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the sorcerer metamagic, when used properly and creatively, can create some unique and interesting combinations.

Maintain haste or a similar buff on two allies at once.
Twinned hold person, twinned slow, twinned finger of death
Subtle spell - no one knows who cast it. The RP possibilities are endless.
Use your action to disengage, bonus action cast your spell for two spell points. No one holds down a sorcerer.

Those are just a few examples of things that only sorcerers can do. They are very much like a martial caster, because they trade variety of options for increased versatility in those options they do take.


And here's what a wizard can do:

Raise extra minions.
Free subtle spell.
Deal maximum damage on spells.
Endless spells.
Free twinned spells.
Ridiculous magical tanking.
Create objects at will.
A lot more than that.

The thing is, a Wizard can change out their spells, and doesn't have 15 spells known. No other full caster has such limit.

[archaeo]

BLAAAAH here we go again......

Nah, never mind. I registered my opinion, you rejected it soundly; while I think I could convincingly argue against your points, I don't think it'll convince you. Have at the homebrewing. I doubt it'll break any campaigns, even if I'm right about the balance.

One thing I will correct, though:


Sorcerer gets 15 (or 24/25) spells known. Most are lower level with only 1 of each 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level. They have a much more limited spell pool to choose spells from.

The Sorcerer can switch out a single spell for any other spell that they are capable of learning every time they level up. If the Sorcerer really wanted to, they could have 4 9th-level spells at level 20. A more viable build will focus on higher-level spells as time goes on, however, and prefer to spend low-level slots on sorcery points to fuel high-level slots or use metamagic.

[Kryx]

Nah, never mind. I registered my opinion, you rejected it soundly; while I think I could convincingly argue against your points, I don't think it'll convince you. Have at the homebrewing. I doubt it'll break any campaigns, even if I'm right about the balance.
I'm actually quite mutable if presented with evidence and have changed my mind many times on these forums (See my reach thread). You have only shared your opinion though.

I highly recommend you do read that other thread. Starting around page 6 both sides lay out the differences. imo SharkForce and Wartex are right on the money.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413381-OMFG-minatour-are-a-legal-player-race-now-and-more-stuff/page6




One thing I will correct, though:

The Sorcerer can switch out a single spell for any other spell that they are capable of learning every time they level up. If the Sorcerer really wanted to, they could have 4 9th-level spells at level 20. A more viable build will focus on higher-level spells as time goes on, however, and prefer to spend low-level slots on sorcery points to fuel high-level slots or use metamagic.
True, I forget that sometimes. That does indeed change my opinion on Sorc's higher level capabilities.

[archaeo]

I'm actually quite mutable if presented with evidence and have changed my mind many times on these forums (See my reach thread). You have only shared your opinion though.

Frankly, I've only seen your opinion here as well. The only numbers I've seen are raw "spells known"; otherwise, we know very little about how Wizards and Sorcerers compare in DPR, durability, damage-per-day, or burst potential, because nobody's provided those numbers in these discussions. We just know that Wizards have access to a greater variety of spells, whereas Sorcerers can be built to cast their smaller selection of spells with additional effects.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to run the numbers myself (it's work time!), and I'd probably mess it up. I'd welcome somebody laying it all out, however.


I highly recommend you do read that other thread. Starting around page 6 both sides lay out the differences. imo SharkForce and Wartex are right on the money.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413381-OMFG-minatour-are-a-legal-player-race-now-and-more-stuff/page6

I'm commenting in that thread already, but thank you for pointing it out. I find myself disagreeing with SharkForce like I often do, and Wartex has provided just as much "evidence" as I have regarding how the mechanics actually play out. :smallbiggrin:

[SharkForce]

on the other hand, sorcerers still have the high level disadvantage in spells known.

the wizard can choose from up to 4 spells of levels 6, 7, and 8, and from up to 8 freely given spells for 9th level.

what's more, the number of spells on the spell lists (PHB only, not checking against EE handbook which will slightly improve at certain levels)

level 6: Sorcerer 10, Wizard 20
level 7: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 15
level 8: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 13
level 9: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 11

even more telling is that the extra spells the wizard gets are frequently the more versatile and powerful options. sorcerers, for example, do not get access to true polymorph or shapechange. at level 8, they're missing out on antimagic field, clone, demiplane, maze, and feeblemind (rare int save spells that greatly round out your arsenal when needed), but add earthquake (not what i would consider a great trade). at 7th level, they're missing out on forcecage, simulacrum, and symbol. at 6th level they're missing out on create undead, magic jar, otto's irresistible dance, and programmed illusion. plus a bunch more, obviously (just the other ones are not quite as top-tier).

this trend more or less continues across the levels (with the only actual versatile spell i can think of that wizards don't get and sorcerers do being enhance ability, which seems weird and is possibly a mistake because wizards had the spells it is based on from previous editions).

the reduced spell list is one of the worst hits the sorcerer took relative to 3e, back when it was both more powerful relative to wizard now, and yet still an entire tier lower.

[Kryx]

As I pointed out last page the Sorc is lacking in 3 areas related to spells:

Spells Known (15 or 25 vs 44+)
Spells Prepared (15 or 25 vs 25)
Spell pool (about 1/2 to 2/3 the size)

You don't get to invalidate those because you disagree elsewhere. Those are substantial. As is the ability for a Wizard to recover spells freely while a Sorcerer gives up every Metamagic ability possible recover slightly more. And yet the Wizard still has all of his school and other benefits.


None of that is opinion.

Please post examples where overall a Wizard has less than a Sorcerer - or even better do it on that thread so someone more knowledgeable about the issue can refute it for me. So far you haven't offered anything that hasn't been refuted by the actual numbers or mechanics.

[Kryx]

what's more, the number of spells on the spell lists (PHB only, not checking against EE handbook which will slightly improve at certain levels)

level 6: Sorcerer 10, Wizard 20
level 7: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 15
level 8: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 13
level 9: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 11

even more telling is that the extra spells the wizard gets are frequently the more versatile and powerful options. sorcerers, for example, do not get access to true polymorph or shapechange. at level 8, they're missing out on antimagic field, clone, demiplane, maze, and feeblemind (rare int save spells that greatly round out your arsenal when needed), but add earthquake (not what i would consider a great trade). at 7th level, they're missing out on forcecage, simulacrum, and symbol. at 6th level they're missing out on create undead, magic jar, otto's irresistible dance, and programmed illusion. plus a bunch more, obviously (just the other ones are not quite as top-tier).

this trend more or less continues across the levels (with the only actual versatile spell i can think of that wizards don't get and sorcerers do being enhance ability, which seems weird and is possibly a mistake because wizards had the spells it is based on from previous editions).

the reduced spell list is one of the worst hits the sorcerer took relative to 3e, back when it was both more powerful relative to wizard now, and yet still an entire tier lower.

Holy crap. Those are worse than I thought... Makes me want to have the sorc use the Wizard's spell list. Based on the other thread I don't think it would be a problem as they're still limited via spells known.

What fixes do you do SharkForce?

[SharkForce]

Holy crap. Those are worse than I thought... Makes me want to have the sorc use the Wizard's spell list. Based on the other thread I don't think it would be a problem as they're still limited via spells known.

What fixes do you do SharkForce?

mostly complain and grumble because nobody wants to admit there's a problem, lately :P

i haven't really done anything with the sorcerer. to be perfectly honest, i want to rework the entire class, which is somewhat beyond the scope of this thread. it does a fairly decent job of representing the 4e sorcerer in 5e format (ie, it is a good striker). it does a bloody *awful* job of representing what you could do with the 3.x sorcerer, while simultaneously blocking both wild magic and metamagic from other classes because that's basically all the sorcerer has going for it (not that i personally care about wild magic, but i know people who like it, and it is a problem for them).

[archaeo]

As I pointed out last page the Sorc is lacking in 3 areas related to spells:

Spells Known (15 or 25 vs 44+)
Spells Prepared (15 or 25 vs 25)
Spell pool (about 1/2 to 2/3 the size)

You don't get to invalidate those because you disagree elsewhere. Those are substantial. As is the ability for a Wizard to recover spells freely while a Sorcerer gives up every Metamagic ability possible recover slightly more. And yet the Wizard still has all of his school and other benefits.


None of that is opinion.

Please post examples where overall a Wizard has less than a Sorcerer - or even better do it on that thread so someone more knowledgeable about the issue can refute it for me. So far you haven't offered anything that hasn't been refuted by the actual numbers or mechanics.

As I said, I suspect that comparing the high damage-per-round, average damage-per-round, overall durability, and total damage-per-day will end up favoring the Sorcerer, who seems well-suited to be a much more focused combatant than the Wizard. I'm not running these numbers, as I'm a poor optimizer without enough time today, and I'd probably just screw up the numbers anyway. I'm eager to see them, however. If my suspicions are true, that's reason enough; the Sorcerer is just a more focused spellcaster.

While many of the Wizard spells SharkForce mentions are indeed good spells, they mostly are "control" rather than direct damage; the Wizard might be better at splitting fights up or otherwise keeping enemies occupied, and they're certainly better at out-of-combat utility spells, but I hypothesize that Sorcerers will be outright better at just killing things dead.

I think being able to put out good, consistent damage all day without focusing on saving spell slots for a host of utility spells is probably a fine trade-off for a reduced spell selection. The 3 areas you outline don't matter much if you're still able to spend the whole day slinging powerful spells that murderize enemies.

But whatever! If I don't see the numbers ran, I'll come back later to do the dirty work.

[Talderas]

The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem).
The Bard knows 16 +6 from any class plus an additional 2 from any class if college of lore is taken for a total of 22-24 with 6-8 from any class..
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20.


Bard gets 22 spells known +6 from any other class list with an additional +2 from any other class list if college of lore is selected for a total of 28-30 with 6-8 from any list.

A paladin can prepare between 5 and 15 spells at 20.

--


While many of the Wizard spells SharkForce mentions are indeed good spells, they mostly are "control" rather than direct damage; the Wizard might be better at splitting fights up or otherwise keeping enemies occupied, and they're certainly better at out-of-combat utility spells, but I hypothesize that Sorcerers will be outright better at just killing things dead.

Sorcerer's metamagic makes them one of the most capable direct crowd control casters.

[DivisibleByZero]

Bard gets 22 spells known +6 from any other class list with an additional +2 from any other class list if college of lore is selected for a total of 28-30 with 6-8 from any list.

No.
Bards get 22, 6 of which can be from any list, and those 6 are included in the Bard's spells known number, as per the description of Magical Secrets. That's why the spells known jumps by two at levels 10, 14, and 18, because those two are included in that number.
Lore Bards add two more to that from any class, and those two are *not* included in the Bard's spells known number, as per the description of Additional Magical Secrets.
22 for non-Lore Bards (referred to as such in anticipation of more eventual Bard subclasses), 6 of which can be from any list.
Or, more clearly, 16 Bard spells and 6 spells from any list.
24 for Lore Bards, 8 of which can be from any list.
Or, more clearly, 16 Bard spells, and 8 spells from any list.

edit:
And incidentally, this is the exact reason that I think giving both spells from the subclass/domain/whatever list to a Sorc is a mistake.
A Sorc was built with the idea that they know less spells, but can do more with the spells that they do know.
By giving them both listed, they actually know more spells than Bards do, and can still do more with those spells. That runs counter to the design philosophy of the class.
15 is too few. 25 is too many. 20 seems just about right to me.

[Kryx]

A paladin can prepare between 5 and 15 spells at 20.
You mean 10-15. Likely 13-15.


You prepare the list of paladin spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the paladin spell list.
When you do so, choose a number of paladin spells equal to your Charisma modifier + half your paladin level, rounded down (minimum of one spell).




And incidentally, this is the exact reason that I think giving both spells from the subclass/domain/whatever list to a Sorc is a mistake.
A Sorc was built with the idea that they know less spells, but can do more with the spells that they do know.
By giving them both listed, they actually know more spells than Bards do, and can still do more with those spells. That runs counter to the design philosophy of the class.
15 is too few. 25 is too many. 20 seems just about right to me.
You keep saying the whole 15 is too few, 25 too many, 20 is just right, and yet even with 25 spells compared to Wizard the Sorcerer is still is behind in diversity and spell pool.
I'm more concerned with the Wizard than the Bard comparison as that has always been the Sorcerer's direct competitor.

That said the bard gets 6-8 spells from any class. The diversity is above and beyond anything the Sorc can do.

[DivisibleByZero]

You keep saying the whole 15 is too few, 25 too many, 20 is just right, and yet 25 compared to Wizard still is behind in diversity and spell pool. That's "just right" imo.
I'm more concerned with the Wizard than the Bard comparison as that has always been the Sorcerer's direct competitor.

OK, then compare a wizard who can prepare 25 spells and 5 cantrips, to a sorcerer who (under the "both known" thing) knows 25 spells and 6 cantrips.
By allowing both to be known, Sorcerers have MORE spells to choose from at any given time than wizards do.
How does that make sense, when you consider the design philosophy of the class?

Less spells available, but more usefulness from those spells, like the design intention? Nope, MORE spells available, and STILL MORE usefulness from those spells.
25 is too many.
Just my opinion, of course, but it is not one that will be swayed by any argument that can be made.
The design philosophy is crystal clear, and while some others may not, I personally agree that metamagic is good enough to warrant less spells known. Less being the operative word there. Not more than any other full caster. Less than them. Less than all of them. Including the Bard.
So like I said, 20 feels just about right to me.

[Dralnu]

Got it. Just throwing ideas around. Just to clarify, what are your problems specifically with the Sorcerer? The spell-deprivation that seems to be a common sentiment, or something else as well?

Let me start by saying I do enjoy the Dragon Sorcerer as-is. I think it could use a boost in power, but as a person that wants to blast people with magic, it's the best choice in my opinion.

1) Too few spells known.

At level 7, this is my list:

Cantrips: Fire Bolt / Light / Mending / Minor Illusion / Shocking Grasp
1: Burning Hands / Disguise Self (I have the Actor feat) / Shield
2: Scorching Ray
3: Melf's Minute Meteors / Fireball / Fly
4: Polymorph

It's a dedicated blaster build and I have enough slots for all the blasting that I wanted. Of my pewpew spells, the only one I'd consider replacing is either Meteors or Fireball. Still, with only 8 spells known, there's very little room outside of blasting. I don't want as many as a Wizard, but a couple more utility spells would make things more enjoyable without breaking anything.


2) Too few metamagics known.

This is supposed to be the main draw of sorcerers. You know the least amount of spells of any pure spellcaster, but you cast them better than anyone else. So why do we get so few options for casting them better?

At level 7, I still only know 2 metamagics, Twin and Empower. You get another at 10th and the final one at 17th. That's underwhelming. You can't retrain metamagics either like you can with spells. I wish I could swap Empower out for Quicken/Heighten later on, but RAW I can't.

I'd like to either know more metamagics or more spells. I don't need both. But if metamagic is the main draw of Sorcerers, then give me more of it.


3) Poor spell recovery.

I can spend 6 out of my 7 sorcery points to get back a 4th level spell slot. These sorcery points are the same resource I use for my signature class ability, metamagic. A wizard can get back a 4th level spell during a short rest without expending any other resource. I would very much prefer that.


4) Wild Magic sucks.

Or at least it sucks as written. I played it initially until the suck was so bad that the DM let me swap to Dragon.

Wild Magic Surge
Whenever you cast a spell that isn't a cantrip, the DM can have you roll a d20. If you roll a 1, you get to roll on the Wild Magic Surge table. A 5% chance if the DM lets you. I think most reasonable DMs will let you roll every time (mine did), but even then, 5% chance is super low. At low levels when spell slots are precious and you rely mostly on cantrips, I was having sessions where I never rolled once on my table. Meanwhile a Dragon Sorcerer is getting bonus health and permanent Mage Armor, while I had to spend 2 of my precious few slots casting Armor twice a day.

Tides of Chaos
An ability that is crazy good or terribly uninspiring. This is the real bonus at level 1. You have on-demand advantage on a roll. It recharges on a long rest (boo) or your DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a spell that isn't a cantrip, and then you get your charge back. So your DM could be super liberal with this too and let it recharge every time you cast a non-cantrip spell, which means you get tons of on-demand advantage and rolls on the Wild Magic Surge table, or he decides not to. My experience was the latter. The DM would forget about the ability because he already has tons of crap to keep track of already, and I felt like a **** having to constantly remind him about this ability. I don't want to beg my DM to let me use my own class ability. Let me worry about my own class abilities.

Bend Luck
This is a fine feature, but not for 2 sorcery points. I would've been fine with 1 sorcery point, or even X times per day.

Controlled Chaos
Not only do I dislike this for thematic reasons (I picked a class for randomness, why are you adding order to it?) but it doesn't stack up to the Dragon Sorc getting permanent fly.

Spell Bombardment
Yeah, this is good.

Easy fix: remove DM babysitting of these abilities. Wild Magic Surge can be rolled every time you cast a non-cantrip spell and triggers on a 1 or a 20 (10% chance rather than 5%). Tides of Chaos can be recharged a number of times per day equal to half your Sorcerer level, and when you do, you get to roll on the chart. Bend Luck costs 1 sorcery point. Drop Controlled Chaos for something else entirely.

EDIT:

5) Fire is the only option

For Dragon Sorcerers. New UAs are giving more options and that's nice. But seriously, just introduce a feat or something that lets me change the elemental type of any spell to the one I want. I don't need spell bloat. Let me turn Fireball into Lightningball so I can play a Lightning Sorcerer without issue.

[Kryx]

OK, then compare a wizard who can prepare 25 spells and 5 cantrips, to a sorcerer who (under the "both known" thing) knows 25 spells and 6 cantrips.
By allowing both to be known, Sorcerers have MORE spells to choose from at any given time than wizards do.
How does that make sense, when you consider the design philosophy of the class?
Reduce it to WotC's 24 if you wish. Cantrips aren't of big concern.

Wizards know 44+. They may not have them readily available, but that in my opinion is the tradeoff. They know a lot more and can swap if they have more information. That's how Wizards have always functioned. WotC set the new number of 24 - I'm just following it (though I did the same amount before).



Less spells available, but more usefulness from those spells, like the design intention? Nope, MORE spells available, and STILL MORE usefulness from those spells.
25 is too many.
The design intention was to be less diverse. Even with 25 spells they are severely less diverse than a Wizard due to having 25 instead of 44+ spells known and having a very limited spell pool.



Just my opinion, of course, but it is not one that will be swayed by any argument that can be made.
Sweet, ok. Well then why are we discussing this?



The design philosophy is crystal clear
No it's not. Sorcerer has been a weird step-child since it's inception. The design/role was not clear in 3, 3.5, PF and now 5e. (4e it was clearly as striker).
You may believe that the sorcerer should only have 15 (or 20) spells and they just spam those like a Warlock spams his spells. Maybe you believe the Sorcerer is in between the Wizard and the Warlock.
Either way it doesn't matter as that is not the design WotC is going with.

[DivisibleByZero]

2) Too few metamagics known.

This I will agree with.
Our table learns two at level 3, and one more at every four levels thereafter (7, 11, 15, 19) for an eventual six out of the eight total available.
And at our table, Sorcs get half the SP listed (rounded up), but those points recharge on a short rest, like Ki.
With these small changes (and the five extra spells via specialty/subclass), Sorcs are pretty much exactly where we want them to be.


No it's not.

Yes, it absolutely is. I don't need designer confirmation to see that a class which gets access to ten less spells, but can change what those spells do or how they are used, is intentionally creating a class that trades versatility in spells available for versatility within the spells he does know.
It's crystal clear.

[Talderas]

You mean 10-15. Likely 13-15.

My statement is accurate.

[DivisibleByZero]

My statement is accurate.

Well yeah, except that it isn't.
You're accounting for a possible -5 Cha mod, which is impossible. Even if you roll stats, and even if you roll a 3, and even if you drop that 3 into Cha and for some strange reason decide to make him a Paladin with a 3 Cha, you would still have 6 spells prepared. 5 is not an option, ever. So no, your statement isn't accurate.

With standard point buy, the lowest Cha mod you could have would be -1, which would be 9 spells prepared. But no one is making a Paladin and dropping an 8 in Cha, so Nope.
13-15, as stated by Kryx, is what's going to be likely.

[Talderas]

Well yeah, except that it isn't.

Ability damage is still a thing in this version. Therefore a charisma of 1 is still a possible outcome. Therefore my statement is accurate.

[DivisibleByZero]

Ability damage is still a thing in this version. Therefore a charisma of 1 is still a possible outcome. Therefore my statement is accurate.

Greater Restoration is also a thing in this edition. By the time you're 20th level, which is what this comparison of numbers is gearing at, then ability damage is no longer a valid concern.

[Talderas]

Greater Restoration is also a thing in this edition. By the time you're 20th level, which is what this comparison of numbers is gearing at, then ability damage is no longer a valid concern.

That is entirely irrelevant to the factuality and accuracy of the statement I made. Regardless of what stats a player chooses, regardless of greater restoration, and regardless of whether ability damage does or does not occur, 5-15 is the valid range for spells prepared by a level 20 paladin.

[DivisibleByZero]

That is entirely irrelevant to the factuality and accuracy of the statement I made. Regardless of what stats a player chooses, regardless of greater restoration, and regardless of whether ability damage does or does not occur, 5-15 is the valid range for spells prepared by a level 20 paladin.

And I can take a 100 question quiz and score a zero. That's in the valid range.
That doesn't mean that it will ever actually happen, which means that while you may technically be able to achieve that number, it is all but an impossibility, and therefore not relevant to the discussion.

You corrected him when he was already correct, and you're trying to force agreement on an pseudo-impossible loophole, either for the sake of argument, or for the sake of proving yourself mathematically correct when you really aren't feasibly or reasonably correct.

13-15 is the right number.

[Kryx]

Ability damage is still a thing in this version. Therefore a charisma of 1 is still a possible outcome. Therefore my statement is accurate.
It's also entirely possible that a wizard has -5 intelligence or that a fighter has -5 strength.

It does not mean that we should take these absurd situations into consideration.

[asorel]

Is this really an issue? It's a completely hypothetical situation, related to a class whose relation to the primary discussion is tangential at best.

[Wartex1]

A valid range for Paladin is 10-15 spells.

Then they also get free Oath spells, which brings it up to 20-25 spells.

[Kryx]

A valid range for Paladin is 10-15 spells.

Then they also get free Oath spells, which brings it up to 20-25 spells.
Valid doesn't matter for comparison. We should be looking at the most common scenario. In this case that's 13-15 for most paladins.

Though you're right each paladin Oath grants 10 spells. So 23-25 for paladins.. lolololol

I've updated the main post for paladins and added Clerics and Druids at 25 prepared each. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights at 13 prepared each.

[SharkForce]

one other thing to add: wizard has 25 spells prepared. plus 2 mastered spells, plus 2 signature spells (and the at-will ones can be changed with a rest iirc, while the two that can't explicitly also count as prepared spells).

so effectively, the wizard will have 29 spells prepared. not 25. plus whatever is in the spellbook that they can cast as rituals.

no danger of being overtaken by the sorcerer with 9 extra spells known.

[Wartex1]

The 2 mastered spells need to be prepared.

However, the Wizard also isn't screwed if going into an undead-filled dungeon while only having poison and necrotic spells prepared, since they can be swapped out easily.

[SharkForce]

if by "need to be prepared" you mean "you can't cast them with spell slots unless you prepare them", then yes.

if you mean they must be selected from your prepared spells, then no. they're chosen from your spellbook.

which, if you choose correctly, means you get all the benefits of them being prepared, and they are for all intents and purposes equivalent to 2 extra spells prepared, even if they are not literally.

for example, shield. you never have a need to cast shield in a level 2 spell slot unless you run out of level 1 spell slots. for level 2, my preference is for mirror image; level 2 is just fine for that one. but you could also choose misty step, for example. or web (which would allow you to throw one, wait for your enemies to break free (costing an action), throw another, etc ad infinitum. if they don't try to break free, you leave it in place and give all of them some unpleasant debuffs :)

[Wartex1]

if by "need to be prepared" you mean "you can't cast them with spell slots unless you prepare them", then yes.

if you mean they must be selected from your prepared spells, then no. they're chosen from your spellbook.

which, if you choose correctly, means you get all the benefits of them being prepared, and they are for all intents and purposes equivalent to 2 extra spells prepared, even if they are not literally.

for example, shield. you never have a need to cast shield in a level 2 spell slot unless you run out of level 1 spell slots. for level 2, my preference is for mirror image; level 2 is just fine for that one. but you could also choose misty step, for example. or web (which would allow you to throw one, wait for your enemies to break free (costing an action), throw another, etc ad infinitum. if they don't try to break free, you leave it in place and give all of them some unpleasant debuffs :)

Here's a quote of Spell Mastery. "You can cast these spells at their lowest level without expending a spell slot when you have them prepared."

[Battlebooze]

I don't have a problem with the number of spells a Sorcerer has, I just don't like the selection of spells they choose from. I think a little more variety would help them.

Giving Sorcerers access to the entire wizards spell book might be over the top.

How about, every third spell they gain can be taken from either the Wizard or Sorcerer spell list? This gives a steady but controlled access to alternative spells.

[SharkForce]

Here's a quote of Spell Mastery. "You can cast these spells at their lowest level without expending a spell slot when you have them prepared."

fair enough, never noticed that. you still get the two from signature spell.

[asorel]

I only just noticed the updated material in the OP. Nice work, especially on the homebrewed spells.

[Kryx]

I only just noticed the updated material in the OP. Nice work, especially on the homebrewed spells.
Thanks!
Nearly all of them are refluffs of already existing spells so they should be pretty balanced. Fluffwise it's not just refluff - it actually nearly matches the functionality of the spell from PF in the first place. It worked out quite well.

The 4 that I ported from PF without a 5e equivalent I based on 5e spells as much as possible.

I included my google docs link as it is much cleaner there

Google Docs 5e Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU)
Google Docs 5e New Spells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13cl7zbg75eMEoP9pkJTAZinhVlaDo1M38HYrIrzG-jw)

[Theodoxus]

Personally, I'd rather boost the number of spells known for Sorcerers to 20 (1/level), convert the Storm and Favored Soul expanded list from added to spells known to added to spell list to choose from, include the lists Kryx did for Dragon and Wild and be done with it.

(The only additional alteration I would suggest is making the Dragon lists different based on origin - Red Fire should have different spells than Gold Fire (Red having more DPS, Gold having more Utility, for instance).)

But that's about it.

[asorel]

Personally, I'd rather boost the number of spells known for Sorcerers to 20 (1/level), convert the Storm and Favored Soul expanded list from added to spells known to added to spell list to choose from, include the lists Kryx did for Dragon and Wild and be done with it.

(The only additional alteration I would suggest is making the Dragon lists different based on origin - Red Fire should have different spells than Gold Fire (Red having more DPS, Gold having more Utility, for instance).)

But that's about it.

I would say the list is fractured enough without trying to find or homebrew 40 more elemental spells. There's also the fact that metallic and chromatic dragon ancestors aren't differentiated mechanically in any other way.

[Kryx]

I would say the list is fractured enough without trying to find or homebrew 40 more elemental spells. There's also the fact that metallic and chromatic dragon ancestors aren't differentiated mechanically in any other way.
Ya, split between each dragon type would be waaay too crazy. Examples don't exist.

Again I think 20 is too few and the standard 25 (as shown on the first post) is the right way to go, but I won't argue it further. I would however recommend to follow the Storm Sorc method which follows both Paladin Oath and Cleric Domains. Give them the limited list automatically and let them pick others freely.

[MReav]

May I suggest for the draconic bloodline, we don't just focus on the elemental part? Dragons are creatures of power, majesty and terror. We could focus on spells that play to that.

Level 2: Enhance Ability could be a spell option (dragons are mental and physical powerhouses, except maybe dex)
Level 3: Fear could be a spell option (dragons have a fear aura).
Level 4: I'm tempted to say Stoneskin (dragons are tough, though the material component cost makes me a little wary).

[asorel]

May I suggest for the draconic bloodline, we don't just focus on the elemental part? Dragons are creatures of power, majesty and terror. We could focus on spells that play to that.

Level 2: Enhance Ability could be a spell option (dragons are mental and physical powerhouses, except maybe dex)
Level 3: Fear could be a spell option (dragons have a fear aura).
Level 4: I'm tempted to say Stoneskin (dragons are tough, though the material component cost makes me a little wary).

Not a bad idea. Draconic origin sorcerers already get a fear aura at 18th Level, however. If a set of spells were to be selected ('dragonlike' covers a lot of topics), I would have one of the bonus spells be based on element, and the other a generic Draconic one.

[Kryx]

May I suggest for the draconic bloodline, we don't just focus on the elemental part? Dragons are creatures of power, majesty and terror. We could focus on spells that play to that.

Level 2: Enhance Ability could be a spell option (dragons are mental and physical powerhouses, except maybe dex)
Level 3: Fear could be a spell option (dragons have a fear aura).
Level 4: I'm tempted to say Stoneskin (dragons are tough, though the material component cost makes me a little wary).
I made it with the mindset that Draconic is the direct damage Origin, but I think you have a decent idea. It could be used to tone down the Origin a bit as well.

I'd suggest giving 1 "dragon-like" ability and the option of 1 of the other 2 abilities at some levels. Though I agree with asorel in that "dragon-like" is very open ended. Fear is a good choice. I wouldn't say Enhance Ability is really Draconic nor is Stoneskin.

Side note: In a recently posted extra 400 spells (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0Qx4NeOkTzTbzlZV0Fwak5uX3c/view) there was a "Dragon's Breath" level 3 ability which could be nice if people wanted to use that.

[archaeo]

So I did sit down and do the math, and it turns out:

When a level 20 Evoker Wizard and a level 20 Blue/Bronze Draconic Sorcerer both dump all their slots, sorcery points, evoker powers, etc. into casting thunderwave, the Wizard does 783.5 and the Sorcerer does 748, with a short rest shoved in. Before the short rest, the Wizard did 729.5, and the Sorcerer did 734.5.

At lower levels, the Sorcerer probably has the edge in raw damage, as sorcery points come online before Evoker class abilities; overchannel alone is worth a fair chunk of that daily damage. And in any given single combat, assuming both go in fully loaded, the Sorcerer will do some significant amount of added damage thanks to metamagic abilities. The Sorcerer also gets one more cantrip than the Wizard, for what that's worth!

As far as durability goes, the Sorcerer just gets a 20 HP bonus over the course of the career.

I would say metamagic is an interesting trade off, after looking at these numbers. I think if you looked at a more robust spell list, that really optimized both of these classes, you would see greater disparities, but that's a lot of trouble; I think the numbers here are an ok substitute, and suggest that a Sorcerer is very competitive with the evocations-focused Wizard in raw damage-dealing capabilities. I would also argue that the Sorcerer's focused spell list will often mean that the Sorcerer has more spell slots to spend on doing damage, as opposed to the Wizard, who will likely have a more diverse set-up.

Just a bit of added information! At least the DPR seems about right, since the differences between the two will be pretty hard to see at the table in the swingy noise. It's entirely possible that Sorcerer trades too much for metamagic, however, especially when those metamagics are a bit scarce and their effects are relatively minor.

[Kryx]

Based on your numbers it looks like a wizard is a slightly better blaster as well as being more versatile. So the one niche the Sorc has and gives up a fair amount for is still worse than the wizard.

Sounds like the Sorc does indeed need buffs.

[DivisibleByZero]

Based on your numbers it looks like a wizard is a slightly better blaster as well as being more versatile. So the one niche the Sorc has and gives up a fair amount for is still worse than the wizard.

Sounds like the Sorc does indeed need buffs.

That's not a proposition that can be made until we know the exact details of this:

overchannel alone is worth a fair chunk of that daily damage
How much is a fair chunk? How many times was it used? What level spells was it used on? How much damage would the wizard have taken to make those numbers appear the way that they did?

Are we talking a couple of dice here and there, or enough to literally kill the wizard by his own hand?
The "fair chunk" makes me think the latter. And if that's the case, then the numbers can't be relied upon as a reasonable comparison, because the wizard wold have been dead long before those numbers were reached, while the sorcerer still hasn't even taken a single point of damage.

[Kryx]

I agree that seeing the details of the numbers is important.

In the end though there isn't much that differentiates the evocation wizard from the Dragon Sorc and I expect their numbers to be quite close.

In which case the wizard can do damage and still have all the versatility which causes the Sorc motto of "more damage, less versatility" to fail. The boost from damage would probably have to be around 30% to be a fair trade off imo.

[DivisibleByZero]

I'm dubious about 30% being needed to even it out. That seems arbitrary and, quite frankly, way too high.
But every single time that overchannel is used it boosts the damage of that particular spell by about 95% or so, basically doubling it from average.

And how were the sorcery points spent?
These are both extremely important questions, and the numbers are meaningless without this knowledge.

[Kryx]

I'm dubious about 30% being needed to even it out. That seems arbitrary and, quite frankly, way too high.
But every single time that overchannel is used it boosts the damage of that particular spell by about 95% or so, basically doubling it from average.

And how were the sorcery points spent?
These are both extremely important questions, and the numbers are meaningless without this knowledge.
There is no mathematical way to qualify versatility. Giving it up is a big cost. From my perspective the reward better be worth it and currently it isn't. I'd estimate the reward would have to be substantial to give up versatility, therefore my guesstimate of 30%.

Compare a Frenzy GMW Barb vs non-Frenzy GMW barb and you'll see the Frenzy does 50% more damage at 5 and 10 and 23% more damage at 15 and 20 (Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0)). The lower end of that range is probably where it would need to be in my mind.

That said I don't care to balance that end of things as that's not how the Sorcerer is setup in practice and it would be a large effort to change that. Instead I make the following changes now:

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10, 4 at 15, and 5 at 20.
Houserule (Buff): You can cast any sorcerer spell you know as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag.
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known. See OP.

[asorel]

I think rituals are a bit much. There's also the issue of them not being very sorcerer-like.

[Kryx]

I think rituals are a bit much. There's also the issue of them not being very sorcerer-like.
Why do you say so? I don't find rituals to be overpowering. The only thing that are used for is utility spells that you don't want to consume a spell slot for the day.

If the sorcerer is spending one of their precious 15 free spells known on Comprehend Languages or any other utility spell I don't see why they should have to spend a spell slot or take a feat in order to cast them as a bard/wizard/druid would.

Fluffwise I don't see why it doesn't fit with a natural spell caster. We see it with the Bard. We see it on the Warlock if they take an invocation. We see it on all prepared casters - druid, cleric, wizard. Why is the Sorc different?

[SharkForce]

to be fair, the comparison probably overly favours the wizard if you're *only* talking about thunderwave (one of the major DPR increases the sorcerer gets is the ability to quicken one spell and cast a damage cantrip in the same round, which a comparison of spamming thunderwave does not account for terribly well).

when you just figure out the total damage after blowing all resources, it kinda fails to account for how quickly that damage was dealt, which is also important.

on the flip side, regarding the claim: "I would also argue that the Sorcerer's focused spell list will often mean that the Sorcerer has more spell slots to spend on doing damage, as opposed to the Wizard, who will likely have a more diverse set-up." (by archaeo) is completely absurd. spell slots are all spontaneous. the wizard can devote all or none of them to damage, as desired. the fact that the evoker has options does not prevent them from choosing the exact same option the sorcerer did for any given day (well, unless the sorcerer used their option to cast earthquake or enhance ability or one of the few other spells they get but wizards don't), while still retaining the ability to do something else the next day.

i still feel like sorcerers need a buff in general, and i still dislike that you can't build a 3.x equivalent sorcerer (that is, a sorcerer that relative to a wizard enjoys spontaneous casting at the expense of being able to change around the spell list, has more spellcasting stamina, and enjoys the same spell list but has to deal with limited spells known).

honestly, the sorcerer actually being the class that has more spells known at any one time than the wizard (while sharing the same spell list) has prepared would help capture the feel of being the superior spontaneous caster, but i'm not sure how balanced that would be.

but then again, this is coming from the guy who wants to basically rewrite the entire class :P

[Kryx]

i still feel like sorcerers need a buff in general, and i still dislike that you can't build a 3.x equivalent sorcerer (that is, a sorcerer that relative to a wizard enjoys spontaneous casting at the expense of being able to change around the spell list, has more spellcasting stamina, and enjoys the same spell list but has to deal with limited spells known).

honestly, the sorcerer actually being the class that has more spells known at any one time than the wizard (while sharing the same spell list) has prepared would help capture the feel of being the superior spontaneous caster, but i'm not sure how balanced that would be.

but then again, this is coming from the guy who wants to basically rewrite the entire class :P
The 5e Wizard fulfills exactly what you want. It is basically a 3.X Sorcerer with a ton more spells known. It can also swap them out with ease. The only difference is the casting stat really. No need to rewrite Sorc to fit the 3.X model as worst case you could refluff the wizard to use Cha instead of Int.

The 5e Sorc has its role and I think where it currently is after the buffs I listed above is quite good. Likely somewhat even with the Wizard in overall power, just in different areas.

[SharkForce]

the wizard does not have more stamina than the wizard (though, depressingly, once you get to level 18 it has more stamina than the actual sorcerer class).

it does not have better spontaneous casting ability than the wizard.

it does not have limited spells known.

and the prepared spells list is not fixed.

now, i *could* ignore that first and second point and pretend like they aren't true, and deliberately not make use of the third or fourth point, but that wouldn't really make the class i'm looking for, and it would be trading away power for nothing and would mean that i contribute less than i should be able to in the party.

the 3.x sorcerer had all of those things and was noticeably weaker than the wizard. a version of a sorcerer like that would also be able to cover the striker role of a 4th edition sorcerer, and would presumably still be weaker. because being able to have the right spell for the occasion is an incredible source of power.

[Kryx]

the wizard does not have more stamina than the wizard
Please make this make sense.

We both know the Sorc isn't designed on the 3.X blueprint, but the 4e one. The Evocation Wizard is the spontaneous powerful caster from 3.X that you want imo.

[asorel]

I'm not sure how the DPS numbers were calculated, but I wouldn't be surprised if they missed a powerful, if situational, use of Quicken metamagic. In the case of spells such as Sunbeam or Melf's Minute Meteors, which require an action to maintain after casting, you may Quicken spells while maintaining the effects of another leveled spell with your action.

[silveralen]

I'm not sure how the DPS numbers were calculated, but I wouldn't be surprised if they missed a powerful, if situational, use of Quicken metamagic. In the case of spells such as Sunbeam or Melf's Minute Meteors, which require an action to maintain after casting, you may Quicken spells while maintaining the effects of another leveled spell with your action.

Worth adding to this is that people always talk about sorcerers lacking versatility. In some senses they do, they have a limited pool of spells, but they have a lot of creativity for using said spells.

I find the idea that sorcerer should have 25 spells known absurd, it is not needed balance wise.

[asorel]

Worth adding to this is that people always talk about sorcerers lacking versatility. In some senses they do, they have a limited pool of spells, but they have a lot of creativity for using said spells.

I find the idea that sorcerer should have 25 spells known absurd, it is not needed balance wise.

My problem with 15 spells is that makes unoptimized spell choices that much more dramatic, even they can be retained with level increases. A poor choke out of 15 is much more significant than a poor choice out of 25, or 44.

[SharkForce]

Please make this make sense.

We both know the Sorc isn't designed on the 3.X blueprint, but the 4e one. The Evocation Wizard is the spontaneous powerful caster from 3.X that you want imo.

see, that's the problem.

i don't want a nuker sorcerer. in third edition, i could make an illusionist sorcerer. or an enchanter sorcerer. or a summoner sorcerer. or a variety of other options. nobody told me "your sorcerer is supposed to blow things up with spells and anything outside of that is not for you", rather they told me that my sorcerer had a limited spell selection but could cast spontaneously from any of them, could cast more spells per day, had fewer feats than a wizard (and combined with the spontaneous spellcasting rules for metamagic was actually by far *worse* than the wizard in the field of metamagic)

i could specialize into certain areas with different prestige classes as well. i could take my sorcerer in any one or two of the directions a wizard might want to go, and enjoy incredible flexibility in the area(s) i chose, and rely on brute force on occasion to get through tough spots because where one spell wouldn't do it, i could afford to spend two or three because i had more spells.

pathfinder just expanded on that beautifully with all the different bloodlines and what direction each could take (on the whole, pathfinder didn't do nearly enough for non-casters of course, and pretty much invalidated way too many character concepts to be as great as it could have been). i could be a fey bloodline sorcerer and get class abilities to complement my enchantment spells. i could be an air elemental bloodline sorcerer and focus on lightning and flying around. i could be an arcane sorcerer with a focus on general utility and metamagic. i could be a draconic bloodline sorcerer and gradually turn into a dragon-like creature, with a bit more of a melee and toughness focus. i could pick both spells and bloodline to support a focus on a type of magic, which i could be very good at, and could support that with spells to cover other things too (but lack the class features to truly excel)

that is the sorcerer i want to see. i'm totally okay with other people getting the nuker sorcerer they want to see, and in fact, the sorcerer i want to see could take that option.

but the sorcerer i want to see doesn't *have* to take that option. it is one of many options. i don't think we necessarily need quite as many bloodlines as pathfinder has. but the concept of a sorcerer that can go in different directions is what i really want to see.

the current sorcerer does a decent job of covering the 4e sorcerer. it has the spell selection to be a striker. it has the class features to be a striker. it has enough control spells that it can have a sideline of CC to a limited extent after choosing the essential damage spells.

and if that was the kind of sorcerer i remembered with any degree of fondness, i'd be satisfied with minor tweaks.

so, like i said; the sorcerer i want to make is frankly beyond the scope of this thread. the current sorcerer is a little bit under strength and could use some minor tweaks if you want it to be as strong in its own way as the wizard, the cleric, and the druid are in their own way. but the sorcerer i want to see is going to take a bit more work than that.

[ChubbyRain]

I never understood why the Sorcerer was so restrictive on spell known.

They have magic running through them, they practice this magic, and they live as this magic.

There is no reason why they couldn't have the same number if spells as a typical caster (cleric, druid, bard, etc).

Other classes have features that distract from spells, Sorcerers are all about spells, their heritage (where they get them), and manipulating spells. They shouldn't know less, they should know more.

Bards go off and perform or train their other abilities, clerics have their religious duties, and druids have nature stuff to deal with. The only other caster that relates to the pure study (if you will) of their abilities is actually the Wizard. The study is different, the wizard through school and the sorcerer through trial and error. But they both are putting 100% of their time into this.

Wizards learn traditions and the sorcerer learns metamagic. The wizard learns recovery and the sorcerer learns font of magic. The sorcerer gains metamagic while the wizard gets access to wizard specific spells.

There is no reason to be so restrictive to the sorcerer on spell known. I mean, I appreciate a "stay in school kids" message and all but this is ridiculous. Since everyone is a "spontaneous" caster now, do we really need to punish the sorcerer (and their players) in order to make the sorcerer distinct?

Also the sorcerer spell list is utter bull crap. Just a trimmed down version of the wizard's? If magic is natural to them then their spell list should incorporate spells of all types (they just are always arcane). Some druid, cleric, and wizard spells should all be on their list. Not just as bonus spells but what a base sorcerer can learn because so far it looks like the only spells they can learn (and really learn is the wrong word, manifest works better but Psionics have that word copy written in D&D :p) are ones that any smart guy could have learned... So you don't need the magic in your blood to cast them after all.

[silveralen]

see, that's the problem.

i don't want a nuker sorcerer. in third edition, i could make an illusionist sorcerer. or an enchanter sorcerer. or a summoner sorcerer. or a variety of other options. nobody told me "your sorcerer is supposed to blow things up with spells and anything outside of that is not for you".

so, like i said; the sorcerer i want to make is frankly beyond the scope of this thread. the current sorcerer is a little bit under strength and could use some minor tweaks if you want it to be as strong in its own way as the wizard, the cleric, and the druid are in their own way. but the sorcerer i want to see is going to take a bit more work than that.

To be fair, that isn't all sorcerer's can do this edition. It is merely the most obvious. You also have his role as a strong buffing character, thanks to twin, extend, and natural constitution prof. Similarly, subtle and silent spell can be useful for illusionist builds, as can heighten and extend. He has the features to be a good summoner, if not the spell list (which can be fixed by something as simple as an origin giving a handful of additional options). Enchantment? He is great there, heighten can be excellent for the spells that only allow one save (suggestion comes to mind, the dominate spells also aren't bad for this), twin and/or extend remain universally good, and he has charisma as his primary.

Now, are all these features as good as what a wizard of the same type gets? Yeah, generally it is as good or better. Personally I'll take metamagic on my enchanter over the enchanter wizard abilities personally. Transmuter is similarly useful, but I favor metamagic slightly for buffs. Etc.

It mainly gets cast as a damage focused character because dragon origin is pretty clearly focused on elemental damage and everyone gets a little wary of wild magic, while the other options are both new and UA, which is questionably balanced.


Also the sorcerer spell list is utter bull crap. Just a trimmed down version of the wizard's? If magic is natural to them then their spell list should incorporate spells of all types (they just are always arcane). Some druid, cleric, and wizard spells should all be on their list.

They have at least one that I've noticed, enhance attribute, a spell not on wizard's list. It is entirely possible it is the only such spell, but at least one does exist.

[SharkForce]

metamagic is helpful for some things.

i don't consider buffing two targets to typically be worth as much as a pair of offensive spells. there are undoubtedly occasions where twinning a haste spell is the best thing you can do. but most of the time, the better option is to just drop an AOE CC effect and buff your party by crippling enemies. haste gives someone an extra attack per round and increases AC and move speed, which is nice. forcing a group of enemies to sit the fight out is as good as dealing their full HP in a single action, effectively makes your AC against them infinite, and prevents them from maneuvering away from you.

typically, unless you're unable to effect the enemy directly, buffing is not a great use of your concentration. there are some exceptions (as a level 1 cleric, you'll be hard-pressed to find a better use for your concentration than bless) but mostly that holds true.

[DivisibleByZero]

Why do you say so? I don't find rituals to be overpowering. The only thing that are used for is utility spells that you don't want to consume a spell slot for the day.

If the sorcerer is spending one of their precious 15 free spells known on Comprehend Languages or any other utility spell I don't see why they should have to spend a spell slot or take a feat in order to cast them as a bard/wizard/druid would.

Fluffwise I don't see why it doesn't fit with a natural spell caster. We see it with the Bard. We see it on the Warlock if they take an invocation. We see it on all prepared casters - druid, cleric, wizard. Why is the Sorc different?

Sorc not getting rituals was intentional, not an oversight.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/08/ritual-bard-not-sorcerer/

Just noticed that 5e sorcerers don't have ritual casting, but bards do. Is that deliberate? I don't see the logic there.
bards rely on study and lore to learn magic, sorcerers are prodigies who don't engage in study.

It would be perfectly reasonable to grant sorcerers ritual casting, but doing so should come with the same caveat that every other caster sans wizard comes with, which is that the spell be known and prepared.

[Kryx]

Sorc not getting rituals was intentional, not an oversight.
I never said it was an oversight. I said it was more balanced if they were to get it.


It would be perfectly reasonable to grant sorcerers ritual casting, but doing so should come with the same caveat that every other caster sans wizard comes with, which is that the spell be known and prepared.
The wording I used is the same wording as the Bard.

Though I do see how rituals would be something you learn and Sorcerers wouldn't learn it. Maybe that shouldn't be on there. It's better balanced, but doesn't fit the fluff maybe.

[DivisibleByZero]

Though I do see how rituals would be something you learn and Sorcerers wouldn't learn it. Maybe that shouldn't be on there. It's better balanced, but doesn't fit the fluff maybe.

Right.
It wasn't omitted because balance. It was omitted because logic due to fluff. :smallsmile:
And honestly, if you wanted to be a ritual caster as a sorcerer, you'd really be better off having the feat than getting it as a class feature.
With the class feature, you'd be spending extremely important spells known on extremely situational spells. With the feat, that isn't needed.

[archaeo]

That's not a proposition that can be made until we know the exact details of this:

How much is a fair chunk? How many times was it used? What level spells was it used on? How much damage would the wizard have taken to make those numbers appear the way that they did?

Are we talking a couple of dice here and there, or enough to literally kill the wizard by his own hand?
The "fair chunk" makes me think the latter. And if that's the case, then the numbers can't be relied upon as a reasonable comparison, because the wizard wold have been dead long before those numbers were reached, while the sorcerer still hasn't even taken a single point of damage.

I tried to get as much damage out of both characters, so the Wizard overchanneled its 9th level slot. I, of course, completely forgot you can't overchannel above 5th level slots because I'm an idiot. My bad! We'll overchannel a single 5th level cast instead, for a new average day of damage at 769.5, or 715.5 before a short rest.

I only overchanneled once, as I figured the Wizard probably wouldn't need to kill itself to have high numbers here, and I was right. The Wizard just needs level 20 arcane recovery for a pair of level 5 slots to beat Sorcerer. I also had the Wizard memorize thunderwave for spell mastery and fireball for signature spells. Really, this Wizard was trying as hard as possible to spend all the damage dice.


There is no mathematical way to qualify versatility. Giving it up is a big cost. From my perspective the reward better be worth it and currently it isn't. I'd estimate the reward would have to be substantial to give up versatility, therefore my guesstimate of 30%.

There's almost certainly a mathematical way to quantify versatility, but I'll admit I have no idea what it is. :smallbiggrin:


to be fair, the comparison probably overly favours the wizard if you're *only* talking about thunderwave (one of the major DPR increases the sorcerer gets is the ability to quicken one spell and cast a damage cantrip in the same round, which a comparison of spamming thunderwave does not account for terribly well).

when you just figure out the total damage after blowing all resources, it kinda fails to account for how quickly that damage was dealt, which is also important.

on the flip side, regarding the claim: "I would also argue that the Sorcerer's focused spell list will often mean that the Sorcerer has more spell slots to spend on doing damage, as opposed to the Wizard, who will likely have a more diverse set-up." (by archaeo) is completely absurd. spell slots are all spontaneous. the wizard can devote all or none of them to damage, as desired. the fact that the evoker has options does not prevent them from choosing the exact same option the sorcerer did for any given day (well, unless the sorcerer used their option to cast earthquake or enhance ability or one of the few other spells they get but wizards don't), while still retaining the ability to do something else the next day.

First, it's absolutely true that thunderwave alone is probably too dumb a measure. I got 20d8 out of spending those sorcery points on a ton of thunderwave casts, but if I had quickened casts instead to cast cantrips, I could have gotten a whopping 40d8 out of ray of frost or 40d10 out of fire bolt, assuming you spend all your points on quickenings (10 casts for 2 points each). That's a pretty substantial upgrade in their daily damage that I didn't spot.

However, I don't find my original point absurd. Yes, they're both spontaneous spellcasters, but Wizards simply have enough memorization slots to probably want to do more with them than just do damage. I don't find that a very absurd point of view at all. Sorcerers, with fewer spells known, will probably want to be more intensely focused, and Draconic certainly favors some serious blasting focus.

(Part of the reason I like Favored Soul is because it encourages a non-blaster Sorc, which is neat, but I think you could probably do a non-blaster PHB Sorcerer too.)

Finally, the damage gets dealt at a pretty even rate. Level 20 Sorcerers, if they use their points on quickened spell instead of dumping them for spell slots, will do 4dY (hopefully +5) additional damage on 10 casts, while Wizards can only overchannel once or twice. I suspect that Sorcerer could probably do more damage faster.


I'm not sure how the DPS numbers were calculated, but I wouldn't be surprised if they missed a powerful, if situational, use of Quicken metamagic. In the case of spells such as Sunbeam or Melf's Minute Meteors, which require an action to maintain after casting, you may Quicken spells while maintaining the effects of another leveled spell with your action.

This absolutely wasn't included in the damage numbers, because I just had the Sorcerer dump all the sorcery points for spell slots. It is absolutely true that, in any individual round, a Sorcerer with sufficient sorcery points will be able to cast any given spell better than any other caster that could've cast the spell. And, as you see above, quickening at level 20 is a really rad way to add damage.

I'm sure if I re-ran these numbers, picking "optimal" spells to cast at each slot level, things might look different.


but the sorcerer i want to see doesn't *have* to take that option. it is one of many options. i don't think we necessarily need quite as many bloodlines as pathfinder has. but the concept of a sorcerer that can go in different directions is what i really want to see.

And we see WotC trying to approach that with the new bloodlines, which, in my view, are pretty cool. The balance might be off now, but nothing that can't be easily patched, after all.

[DivisibleByZero]

So the wizard chose thunderwave for spell mastery (which probably won't ever happen) and the sorcerer used his SP inefficiently.
I applaud your work done here, but it wasn't done in a realistic way to show what the numbers would actually be. You stacked the deck for the wizard.

[SharkForce]

So the wizard chose thunderwave for spell mastery (which probably won't ever happen) and the sorcerer used his SP inefficiently.
I applaud your work done here, but it wasn't done in a realistic way to show what the numbers would actually be. You stacked the deck for the wizard.

the wizard can replace spell mastery spells with 8 hours of rest. if you were coming up on a situation where you know you're gonna need a lot of thunderwave, sure you're gonna choose it. then later on, you'll switch it back to your normal use spells.

and actually, the sorcerer used SP efficiently. quicken is not an ability you use for efficiency. it is a feat you use for an inefficient burst.

the comparison is probably not the best that could have been done. but it was frighteningly close either way, and doesn't account for how quickly the damage could have been done (the sorcerer could potentially even sacrifice lower level spell slots to increase damage per round, but would further decrease damage done).

@archaeo: it's a silly claim to make because the wizard can make the exact same choice the sorcerer did, except the wizard is only locked into that choice after they've spent their spell slots, and can make the choice either way again tomorrow when they've recharged.

the fact that the wizard *can* choose to do other things in no way prevents the wizard from choosing the same route as the sorcerer at any given time.

[DivisibleByZero]

and actually, the sorcerer used SP efficiently. quicken is not an ability you use for efficiency. it is a feat you use for an inefficient burst.

That isn't even remotely true.
A blaster is going to use quicken rather than creating slots, because quicken is the most efficient blaster use of SP.

20 SP = two 5th and one 4th level slots, which, using fireball as an example, equates to around 29d6(9+10+10). Compare that to quicken, which can be done 10 times, at 4d8 or 4d10 each.
+29d6 vs +40d8 (or even 40d10). And to be clear, using fireball as an example there was generous, because it has higher base dice then a lot of spells. Creating slots for an extremely efficient blasting spell still get's blown out of the water by quicken.
How can you say that quicken isn't efficient for blasting?

edit:
And if you're going to get into the whole AoE vs single target thing, then a third extremely important question that needs answering is raised. How many targets were assumed to be hit by each and every spell cast by either caster? Without that information, the numbers are meaningless.

[archaeo]

So the wizard chose thunderwave for spell mastery (which probably won't ever happen) and the sorcerer used his SP inefficiently.
I applaud your work done here, but it wasn't done in a realistic way to show what the numbers would actually be. You stacked the deck for the wizard.

I asked somebody else to do the math, I knew I'd screw it up! :smallbiggrin:


@archaeo: it's a silly claim to make because the wizard can make the exact same choice the sorcerer did, except the wizard is only locked into that choice after they've spent their spell slots, and can make the choice either way again tomorrow when they've recharged.

the fact that the wizard *can* choose to do other things in no way prevents the wizard from choosing the same route as the sorcerer at any given time.

Except for the fact that, while the Sorcerer likely will use all of their spell slots on combat, the Wizard will almost certainly retain a lot of spell slots for non-combat use. I'm not sure why you're arguing this point; sure, the Wizard, if it wants, can absolutely match the Sorcerer blow-for-blow, but what Wizard ever would? What would be the point? The Wizard has better things to do with their spell slots than blow them all in combat, or blow them all doing damage. The Sorcerer will also be doing more damage, more quickly, at lower levels than the Wizard.

[Kryx]

So the wizard chose thunderwave for spell mastery (which probably won't ever happen) and the sorcerer used his SP inefficiently.
I applaud your work done here, but it wasn't done in a realistic way to show what the numbers would actually be. You stacked the deck for the wizard.
Why wouldn't a damage focused Wizard do so?

[SharkForce]

That isn't even remotely true.
A blaster is going to use quicken rather than creating slots, because quicken is the most efficient blaster use of SP.

20 SP = two 5th and one 4th level slots, which, using fireball as an example, equates to around 29d6(9+10+10). Compare that to quicken, which can be done 10 times, at 4d8 or 4d10 each.
+29d6 vs +40d8 (or even 40d10). And to be clear, using fireball as an example there was generous, because it has higher base dice then a lot of spells. Creating slots for an extremely efficient blasting spell still get's blown out of the water by quicken.
How can you say that quicken isn't efficient for blasting?

edit:
And if you're going to get into the whole AoE vs single target thing, then a third extremely important question that needs answering is raised. How many targets were assumed to be hit by each and every spell cast by either caster? Without that information, the numbers are meaningless.

that isn't efficient damage. that's fast burst damage. it doesn't add any damage total, you could use those cantrips infinitely; you could have dealt the same damage in a longer time while spending *no* resources on damage.

quicken lets you burst. it's great for that. and bursting is a valuable thing, it really is. a dead enemy is an enemy that is no longer attacking you, and the sooner that happens, the better.

but it isn't efficient if it costs more resources. worth doing? absolutely. an important factor to consider? to be sure. but inefficient.

@archaeo: and yet, the option remains. the whole point of having those spell slots is that you can use them for what is needed. if damage is what is needed, then the wizard that fails to use their spell slots for damage is a fool, just as much as the wizard that blows all their spell slots on damage when utility is what is required is a fool. if you just sit on your spell slots because you might need them some day, you'll never use the spell slots when you need them.

it may not always be the best option, and that's one of the things that makes the wizard so strong is that they have so many options. but when the situation calls for a damage-focused sorcerer, a wizard can also do the job quite well.

[DivisibleByZero]

that isn't efficient damage. that's fast burst damage. it doesn't add any damage total, you could use those cantrips infinitely; you could have dealt the same damage in a longer time while spending *no* resources on damage.

Irrelevant.
This is essentially a timed exercise. Factoring in free use of cantrips without using any resources is not something that is considered. What is considered is how much damage can be turned out while using slots. Quicken improves upon that number more than any other use of SP, which therefore makes it the most efficient use of SP for this exercise.

[asorel]

that isn't efficient damage. that's fast burst damage. it doesn't add any damage total, you could use those cantrips infinitely; you could have dealt the same damage in a longer time while spending *no* resources on damage.

quicken lets you burst. it's great for that. and bursting is a valuable thing, it really is. a dead enemy is an enemy that is no longer attacking you, and the sooner that happens, the better.

but it isn't efficient if it costs more resources. worth doing? absolutely. an important factor to consider? to be sure. but inefficient.

@archaeo: and yet, the option remains. the whole point of having those spell slots is that you can use them for what is needed. if damage is what is needed, then the wizard that fails to use their spell slots for damage is a fool, just as much as the wizard that blows all their spell slots on damage when utility is what is required is a fool. if you just sit on your spell slots because you might need them some day, you'll never use the spell slots when you need them.

it may not always be the best option, and that's one of the things that makes the wizard so strong is that they have so many options. but when the situation calls for a damage-focused sorcerer, a wizard can also do the job quite well.

Cantrips don't cost slots, and spending SP on getting more cantrips may seem a resource waste in the long term, but the action economy has a resource pool of its own, one that is much more important in a single encounter. It's much more 'efficient' from a slot conservation standpoint to spam cantrips and nothing else, but Quickening is a more optimal choice from the perspective of net damage.

[Kryx]

Except for the fact that, while the Sorcerer likely will use all of their spell slots on combat, the Wizard will almost certainly retain a lot of spell slots for non-combat use. I'm not sure why you're arguing this point; sure, the Wizard, if it wants, can absolutely match the Sorcerer blow-for-blow, but what Wizard ever would? What would be the point? The Wizard has better things to do with their spell slots than blow them all in combat, or blow them all doing damage. The Sorcerer will also be doing more damage, more quickly, at lower levels than the Wizard.
You're literally arguing that the Wizard is worse off because he has choice... that doesn't hold water..

[SharkForce]

and that's why i said it's a good choice, and important to consider... and yet, it is *still* inefficient.

inefficient doesn't mean it's bad. it just means it isn't efficient. situationally, one is going to be better than the other. at level 20, there are fairly good odds that the better choice will be the one that deals damage faster, whether you get more out of it or not.

but it is still not efficient.

[DivisibleByZero]

You are determining overall efficacy, when this exercise has a strict set of parameters, wherein overall efficacy is not a concern.


at level 20, there are fairly good odds that the better choice will be the one that deals damage faster, whether you get more out of it or not.

Yes. Precisely. Which is exactly why, for the sake of this exercise, Quicken is the most efficient use of SP. You know, since Quicken Spell is the one that deals damage faster. It's right in the name. Remember what I said about this essentially being a timed exercise? That's why Quicken is the best use.
Thank you for agreeing with me.

[SharkForce]

efficient does not mean best choice. it means best ratio of input to output.

it is often, perhaps even typically, the best choice to use quicken when you're a level 20 sorcerer trying to deal damage. it is rarely if ever the most efficient choice.

if you were in a grueling dungeon where rest is nearly impossible and difficulty comes more from the number of encounters, you would want the efficient choice, for example.

in a typical day where you're expecting to have a few fights and then rest, sure, it's the better choice to use more resources to deal your damage as fast as possible. you may even want to convert many or most of your low level spell slots into sorcery points after going through 10 rounds of quickening spells. but while it would be the better choice to do so, it wouldn't be efficient (truthfully, i suspect the most efficient damage option might be empower, but i'm not sure how to model that).

(and practically speaking, no the comparison listed is not a timed event. it was a measurement of total damage dealt by expending all spell slots).

now, if you wish to argue that a timed event where we see who can burst the fastest *should* be done, i agree that such a comparison would definitely be valuable. and typically, the sorcerer will win that one (unless the wizard multiclasses for call lightning or something similar to overchannel).

truthfully though, i don't think we're going to get a good picture from that comparison either. a proper comparison should probably involve multiple spells used and would account for the wizard's ability to exchange spells on a daily basis and to have a larger number of spell choices at any given time (for example, a wizard can afford to have different spells for each damage type in both AOE and single-target variations to cover different situations, as well as damage spells that target difference defences. a sorcerer that tried to do so would likely run out of spells known before covering everything perfectly). it would likely account for resistances and immunities, groups and solo monsters, enemies with good or bad saves and good or bad AC, or where you have advantage or disadvantage, short or long range is called for, etc.

the problem being, such a test calls for a whole lot of work.

[DivisibleByZero]

efficient does not mean best choice. it means best ratio of input to output.

And in what is essentially a timed exercise wherein as soon as all slots are expended the test is complete, the output of Quicken gives the best ratio, thus in this exercise Quicken is the most efficient.
If the exercise did not end when slots were expended, and we could spend all day slinging cantrips for free, then it becomes the least efficient. But that isn't the case here. In this case, it is the most efficient.

If you want to dispute it further, then show me how spending SP in any way deals more damage than 2d8 or 2d10 per SP spent. Until you can show me that, Quicken reigns supreme for efficacy in this exercise.
And once again, just so we're clear:

edit:
And if you're going to get into the whole AoE vs single target thing, then a third extremely important question that needs answering is raised. How many targets were assumed to be hit by each and every spell cast by either caster? Without that information, the numbers are meaningless.
Claiming that slots could be used for AoE damage spells against multiple targets, multiplying the number of dice provided, is not a valid argument unless and until we know how he valued the AoEs in the first place (which we don't).

[archaeo]

You're literally arguing that the Wizard is worse off because he has choice... that doesn't hold water..

I'm not literally arguing that. I'm arguing that Wizard and Sorcerer are likely balanced because, while Wizard has a wider variety of choices w/r/t spell selection, Sorcerer has more ways to make those spells hit harder, last longer, or strike at more targets.

It's the difference between a generalist and a specialist, in other words. A Wizard can, as SharkForce has said, choose to specialize in many strategies that obviate the use of another class; a focused Necromancer Wizard can often cover the need for DPR meatshields as well as a Fighter, just as a focused Evoker Wizard will do the job a Sorcerer can do. This doesn't strike me as a huge problem (it's actually fine class flexibility, if you look at it from a certain angle), as Fighters and Sorcerers alike can often manage to cover Wizard-y utility with the correct build.

I would, however, argue that the Evoker Wizard will still never deal damage as efficiently and powerfully as Sorcerers, just as the Necromancer Wizard's skeleton army can't really match the utility of keeping a proper Fighter/Barbarian around. That's balance.


the problem being, such a test calls for a whole lot of work.

Which is why I decided not to do it. :smallsmile:

My hypothesis is that a fully optimized Evoker Wizard is going to fall behind, somewhat, in daily damage, DPR, and burst damage when you compare it to a fully optimized Draconic Sorcerer. They make up for it with far greater access to utility.

In other words, Wizards are played well when you take advantage of their versatility, and Sorcerers are played well when you take advantage of their focused striking capabilities.

[Wartex1]

I'm not literally arguing that. I'm arguing that Wizard and Sorcerer are likely balanced because, while Wizard has a wider variety of choices w/r/t spell selection, Sorcerer has more ways to make those spells hit harder, last longer, or strike at more targets.

It's the difference between a generalist and a specialist, in other words. A Wizard can, as SharkForce has said, choose to specialize in many strategies that obviate the use of another class; a focused Necromancer Wizard can often cover the need for DPR meatshields as well as a Fighter, just as a focused Evoker Wizard will do the job a Sorcerer can do. This doesn't strike me as a huge problem (it's actually fine class flexibility, if you look at it from a certain angle), as Fighters and Sorcerers alike can often manage to cover Wizard-y utility with the correct build.

I would, however, argue that the Evoker Wizard will still never deal damage as efficiently and powerfully as Sorcerers, just as the Necromancer Wizard's skeleton army can't really match the utility of keeping a proper Fighter/Barbarian around. That's balance.



Which is why I decided not to do it. :smallsmile:

My hypothesis is that a fully optimized Evoker Wizard is going to fall behind, somewhat, in daily damage, DPR, and burst damage when you compare it to a fully optimized Draconic Sorcerer. They make up for it with far greater access to utility.

In other words, Wizards are played well when you take advantage of their versatility, and Sorcerers are played well when you take advantage of their focused striking capabilities.

Except that the power of Metamagic isn't offset by the Sorcerer having less spells.

The Sorcerer has Metamagic as its only feature, and the core archetypes are pretty bad. The Wizards' other features make up for Metamagic. Plus, more spells known doesn't push the Wizard out, since the Wizard can still do many more things and can change spells as part of a rest.

[archaeo]

One other mathy thing I forgot; it's entirely possible the damage calculations would change if you dropped a bunch of low-level slots to get sorcery points for quickening and empowering spells. At high levels, you're better off losing a bunch of low-level slots, since your cantrips are outright better than casting spells from those slots.


Except that the power of Metamagic isn't offset by the Sorcerer having less spells.

The Sorcerer has Metamagic as its only feature, and the core archetypes are pretty bad. The Wizards' other features make up for Metamagic. Plus, more spells known doesn't push the Wizard out, since the Wizard can still do many more things and can change spells as part of a rest.

Can you even try to quantify or otherwise justify the idea that metamagic doesn't make up for the missing spells known?

The dogmatic view that more options always equals a better class strikes me as a very strange take on game design.

[Wartex1]

My point is that the Metamagic doesn't make up for the missing spells known is because Metamagic is the only feature a Sorcerer gets outside of archetypes while other spellcasting classes get more spells known and more features which are often just as if not more useful. In addition, the core Sorcerer archetypes aren't very good in either costing too much or not offering anything terribly useful.

[Kryx]

Can you even try to quantify or otherwise justify the idea that metamagic doesn't make up for the missing spells known?

The dogmatic view that more options always equals a better class strikes me as a very strange take on game design.
The burden of proof is just as much on you as it is on him.

To say that "more spells known is too powerful" you have to show how the Sorcerer is better in certain ways that it doesn't deserve 25 spells (10 of which are limited) as is the new WotC design. We've already shown several categories where they are behind (spells prepared, swapping, spell pool, etc). And yet from the other side all we see is some numbers that we cannot verify. And even those numbers show that the sorcerer is not significantly advantaged in its one supposed role.

[DivisibleByZero]

One other mathy thing I forgot; it's entirely possible the damage calculations would change if you dropped a bunch of low-level slots to get sorcery points for quickening and empowering spells. At high levels, you're better off losing a bunch of low-level slots, since your cantrips are outright better than casting spells from those slots.

And it's even better than that. Each low level slot burned for more SP is not only more efficient than a normal spell from that level, but it's twice as effective. Each slot burned frees up one round where the wizard uses a slot and the sorcerer casts a cantrip.
Burning that slot for more SP to quicken essentially adds 8d8+10/8d10+10 rather than the 4d8+5/4d10+5 that it would initially appear to.

[weaseldust]

I ran some numbers for a lower level: level 10. The following is all measured in d8's rather than actual HP to keep the numbers simpler.

Say we have a level 10 evoker wizard and a level 10 sorcerer (I'll compare both sub-classes). Their adventuring day includes two short rests and two encounters per rest, so 6 encounters. They take an average of 4 turns per encounter (or, if they take more, they don't spend them casting spells), for 24 turns in the day. They both have 4 level-1 slots, 3 of each of level-2 to level-4, and 2 level-5 slots. The wizard also regains 5 level-1 slots and the sorcerer twins all level-1 and level-2 spells (that this is the best choice is an odd but probably harmless consequence of what follows). They use every spell slot on Chromatic Orb, and every other turn on Ray of Frost. (This is clearly non-optimal, but also very convenient, and will do for now.) They always have enough targets.

The wizard casts Chromatic Orb 20 times and would deal 86d8 damage if all hit. They cast Ray of Frost 4 times and would deal 8d8 damage if all hit. They can also add their intelligence bonus to damage 24 times. I'll count their intelligence bonus as 1d8, since it will be either 4 or 5 most likely, and the numbers don't have to be too precise. That's another 24d8, for a total of 118d8.

The (white) dragon sorcerer casts Chromatic Orb 15 times, with all the 1st- and 2nd-level castings twinned, for 95d8 damage if all hit. They cast Ray of Frost 9 times and would deal 18d8 damage if all hit. They get another 31d8 from adding their charisma bonus (assuming you add it to both halves of a twinned Chromatic Orb). That gives a total of 144d8 damage, if everything hits.

The wild magic sorcerer can get advantage on 16 spell attacks if they cast 15 non-cantrip spells. I assume they use 15 on Chromatic Orb and one on something else, because the gain from having advantage on one Ray of Frost isn't worth calculating. To calculate the average benefit from advantage, I'll stipulate that the characters all have a chance of hitting of 0.7 with all attack rolls (advantage improves if the chance gets closer to 0.5 and gets less useful as it nears 1). The wizard then expects to deal 0.7x118 d8 in damage, i.e. 82.6d8, and the dragon sorcerer expects to deal 100.8d8. With advantage, the wild sorcerer has a chance to hit of 0.91, and so expects to deal 0.91x71 + 0.7x24 d8, i.e. 81.41d8 damage (the twinned orbs don't get advantage). They get 0.7x18 d8, i.e. 12.6d8 damage from Ray of Frost, and nothing else, so their total expected damage is 94.01d8. The wild magic sorcerer should also gain a net benefit from rolling on the wild magic table, but it's hard to quantify how much, and can add to allies' damage a little with their level 6 feature.

Summary: the evoker expects 82.6d8 damage, the dragon sorcerer expects 100.8d8, and the wild magic sorcerer expects 94d8. (In HP, those are 371.7, 453.6, and 423 damage respectively.)

Of course, this is a highly unrealistic scenario, but perhaps it helps demonstrate roughly how a few class features measure up as damage-increasing tools at this level.

[Wartex1]

Then you realize how much more utility the Wizard has.

Did you account for the Wizard using 2nd-level spell slots? Did you also account for the limited number of Sorcery points?

[archaeo]

My point is that the Metamagic doesn't make up for the missing spells known is because Metamagic is the only feature a Sorcerer gets outside of archetypes while other spellcasting classes get more spells known and more features which are often just as if not more useful. In addition, the core Sorcerer archetypes aren't very good in either costing too much or not offering anything terribly useful.

These are all qualitative statements that have absolutely nothing to do with how the Sorcerer actually plays at the table. I'll cheerfully concede that Sorcerer needed more subclasses, and that the PHB's selection is lacking. WotC is correcting that problem as we speak! But Draconic is not a bad archetype (free flying, AC bonus, free HP, free & powerful fear/charm?) and its features certainly aren't underpowered compared to the Wizard's subclasses.

I tried, and admittedly failed, to bring some numbers to the table, though I think DivisibleByZero has shown how I mostly overestimated Wizard and underestimated Sorcerer. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some quantitative commentary on the balance between the two before we throw our hands up and call it hopelessly broken.


The burden of proof is just as much on you as it is on him.

To say that "more spells known is too powerful" you have to show how the Sorcerer is better in certain ways that it doesn't deserve 25 spells (10 of which are limited) as is the new WotC design. We've already shown several categories where they are behind (spells prepared, swapping, spell pool, etc). And yet from the other side all we see is some numbers that we cannot verify. And even those numbers show that the sorcerer is not significantly advantaged in its one supposed role.

This burden of proof thing might make sense if this was a court of law, but it definitely isn't. I apologize for not being precise enough in my math, but it's hardly unverifiable, since you own the same books I do. As I said above, DivisibleByZero has done a far better job than me showing how creative use of sorcery points can lead to much higher damage totals, and I'm sure that someone who wasn't a rank incompetent like me could assemble a better math case, given that I'm sure WotC did when they were designing the damn class in the first place.

The only thing you've shown is that Sorcerers are designed exactly as they were intended to be, with fewer spells known but more flexibility in casting said spells. Metamagic is a significant thing Sorcerers can do, and the flexibility with which they can use sorcery points is a big added benefit Wizards simply do not have. These factors aren't negligible, and you've offered no evidence whatsoever that they fail to match up to a Wizard's class features. You just see that one number is smaller than the other guy's number and cry foul.

[Kryx]

The (white) dragon sorcerer casts Chromatic Orb 15 times, with all the 1st- and 2nd-level castings twinned
Uhhhhhh sorcery points aren't unlimited...

[archaeo]

Uhhhhhh sorcery points aren't unlimited...

A level 10 Sorcerer has 10 Sorcery Points
1 point for each of the 4 level 1 casts (4 total)
2 points for each of the 3 level 2 casts (6 total)

That looks right to me?

[Kryx]

You just see that one number is smaller than the other guy's number and cry foul.
Yup, this is exactly what has happened...

Thankfully WotC has decided this argument for us and decided that the Sorc was not powerful enough to deserve such limits. Even with the still massively limited selection of spells they're still extremelly limited by spell pool and their lack of ability to switch prepared spells as per their design.

You're free to not buff the old archetypes or nerfed the new ones to whatever hole you think sorcerer belongs in. I'll happily take the somewhat competitive favored soul and storm Sorc template.

[Kryx]

A level 10 Sorcerer has 10 Sorcery Points
1 point for each of the 4 level 1 casts (4 total)
2 points for each of the 3 level 2 casts (6 total)

That looks right to me?
He cast 15 twinned spells by the words above, not 10.

[archaeo]

Yup, this is exactly what has happened...

Thankfully WotC has decided this argument for us and decided that the Sorc was not powerful enough to deserve such limits. Even with the still massively limited selection of spells they're still extremelly limited by spell pool and their lack of ability to switch prepared spells as per their design.

You're free to nor buff the old clay or nerfed the new ones to whatever hole you think sorcerer belongs in. I'll happily take the somewhat competitive favored soul and storm Sorc template.

I think the only thing WotC decided was that it's easier just popping a few spells onto an archetype than designing entirely new subclass features. The Storm Sorcerer may get more spells to choose from, but the Storm spells themselves aren't exactly expanding the palette they've got to work with. The Favored Soul gives up quite a bit of focus in exchange for a lot more flexibility. If Mearls meant to say, "This is what we think all Sorcerers should have," he would've said so. He didn't, and I don't think that is what they're planning.

Time will tell, though! I imagine if most players feel like you do, when they get around to surveying people, the PHB Sorcerer subclasses will get errata'd. That's fine.

Edited to add:


He cast 15 twinned spells by the words above, not 10.

He said he cast 15 spells, with all level 1 and 2 spells twinned. I'm not sure how he could've been much clearer, really.

[weaseldust]

He said he cast 15 spells, with all level 1 and 2 spells twinned.

Right, I meant 4 twinned level 1 Chromatic Orbs for 4 sorcery points, 3 twinned level 2 Chromatic Orbs for 6 sorcery points, 3 untwinned Chromatic Orbs of each of levels 3 and 4, and 2 untwinned Chromatic Orbs of level 5. (I found twinning the lower level castings made better use of the sorcery points because the spell deals (n+2) d8 at level n and it costs n sorcery points to twin at that level, so the gain per sorcery point is 1 + 2/n. It's also more effective than quickening or buying spell slots. Of course, that could fail to be true for a different choice of spells.) I can understand if the details didn't come across because I was trying not to be too wordy, but I think the numbers add up.

[asorel]

The numbers have convinced me that the Sorcerer does a fair job of out-damaging an Evoker, though I was sure of that already. I still think however, that 15 spells known, while certainly workable, doesn't leave a whole lot of breathing room. A limited list of extra spells, in the fashion of Storm bloodline would rectify this for me, though I'm beginning to think that having only 5 of 10 not count towards spells known is quite reasonable. However, I don't think going the full 9 or 10 would unbalance the class, either. I still think that the SP costs of the Draconic and Wild Mage bloodlines should be reduced/eliminated. I'm on the fence regarding giving more metamagic options. As there are only 4 options that I consider worth taking for combat (twin, quicken, empower, heighten), which happens to be the number of metamagic slots available by default, adding, say, two more would give the Sorcerer rather situational abilities that won't severely affect balance.

[archaeo]

The numbers have convinced me that the Sorcerer does a fair job of out-damaging an Evoker, though I was sure of that already. I still think however, that 15 spells known, while certainly workable, doesn't leave a whole lot of breathing room. A limited list of extra spells, in the fashion of Storm bloodline would rectify this for me, though I'm beginning to think that having only 5 of 10 not count towards spells known is quite reasonable. However, I don't think going the full 9 or 10 would unbalance the class, either. I still think that the SP costs of the Draconic and Wild Mage bloodlines should be reduced/eliminated. I'm on the fence regarding giving more metamagic options. As there are only 4 options that I consider worth taking for combat (twin, quicken, empower, heighten), which happens to be the number of metamagic slots available by default, adding, say, two more would give the Sorcerer rather situational abilities that won't severely affect balance.

Honestly, if I was going to rewrite the class, I'd probably give the Sorcerer spell points, such as what's suggested in the DMG, bump them up a bit, and then make metamagic cost the same resource, with a more short-rest centric recovery mechanic (maybe get 1/4 points back after a rest or something). I don't have a huge problem with the current design, as such -- they're certainly not grossly unbalanced, regardless of where you stand in this discussion -- but further mechanical differentiation could've gone a long way toward making Sorcerers distinct.

Oh well! I think the UA content is nicely inspirational, as shown by Kryx's OP. As long as you don't change the number of spell slots or sorcery points, I don't think you unbalance things too much by throwing bonus spells at the Sorcerer.

[Wartex1]

Spell Points would step on the Psion's toes, whenever that comes out.

[DivisibleByZero]

Spell Points would step on the Psion's toes, whenever that comes out.

Not really, since psions are really just wizards that use the spell point system. The rest of the differences are fluff, and not much more.
There really is no point in psionics existing in 5e at all. I realize that people want it, but it already exists. Spell point variant wizard with some fluff changes = psion. It really is that simple.

[SharkForce]

the base class could stay largely the same for wizards and psions, i agree.

the spell list would need to be different however. there should be some overlap, but each should have a variety of different effects. and the psion will need new subclasses.

which, ultimately, is a heck of a lot more than just a refluffing.

[DivisibleByZero]

new subclasses.

Full stop.
The rest is refluffing.

[SharkForce]

Full stop.
The rest is refluffing.

uh-huh. because psions are definitely known for their ability to summon and control extraplanar beings. oh wait, no, they aren't at all. well, they're definitely known for illusions, right? oh, not that either? well, necromancy then. oh, what's that you say? they have almost no powers that interact with necromancy at all? well, they're totally known for spells like knock and web, right? oh, huh, that's not a thing either.

hmmm... it's almost as if psions and wizards have overlap of *some* of their spell lists, but not all of it. almost like you'd need to make separate spell lists for the 2 classes. and probably some new spells as well.

well, fortunately psions are known for their ability to learn an infinite number of spells so long as they can get someone to teach them though. right? oh what's that you say? that is also something they're not known for?

well, i'm sure psionics will manage to feel totally appropriate without having any decent mind control effects until you reach level 5 spells, though. because that certainly is not a central theme of psionics or anything like that. and certainly, no need for a greater focus on telekinesis, and it's not like there's an entire discipline of psionics dedicated to manipulating time and space in ways that magic typically does not do.

in many ways, the mechanics for psions and wizards should be very similar. there is no reason for them not to be. truth be told, they've been getting closer and closer for a while now in terms of basic mechanics (though with 4th edition it's hard to tell whether that's just because everything used the same basic mechanics or that there was any special effort made for psionics).

[DivisibleByZero]

uh-huh.

uh-huh.
It's almost as if you'd have to refluff some spells to do force damage, or bludgeoning damage. It's almost as if you'd have to refluff web to ectoplasm. It's almost as if you'd have to refluff some illusions to be single target and/or do psychic damage. It's almost as if you'd have to refluff a summon to an astral construct of some kind. It's almost as if you could just not change your prepared spells, and pretend you don't have a spellbook.

It's all just refluff. New subclasses representing the different disciplines, refluff the stuff that needs it, and call it a day.

[SharkForce]

"refluff" does not mean "change the mechanics".

and no, removing a major source of the class's power with no compensation is not a good way to represent another class.

that would be like me suggesting that to make a barbarian, you just take a champion fighter, add the GWM feat, only allow the use of the two-hander fighting style, and just don't take the extra attacks you would gain at level 11 and 20 or wear heavy armour. sure, you *could* do that. you could RP it to be kinda like a barbarian, even, and GWM is *kinda* like the rage damage bonus. but why should you be expected to play what is literally a worse version of a fighter just because i don't want there to be a barbarian class (not that i actually particularly care that there is a barbarbian class one way or the other, that's just an example).

you don't want it. so what. you're not the target market. if you don't want it, then don't take it and let the people that want it get something that actually works well instead of trying to build a psion class for people that don't want a psion class at all. that is a much better solution to the problem.

[Kryx]

I ran some different numbers.

Assumptions:

2 short rests
24 total turns
Calculated chance to hit and save (this is important as many spells do half on a save)
Wizard actually uses decent spells that the sorcerer doesn't have access to due to spell list or bloodline choice (Poison Spray, Flaming Sphere, Thunderwave)
Wizard has a higher chance to hit more creatures due to Sculpt spell. I think I played it pretty conservatively.
The Sorcerer tries to focus fire spells to reflect his Draconic Bloodline, but must shy away from it for more damage - especially at later tiers.

Level 6 The Wizard does 684 and the Sorcerer does 685. Tie.

I originally was going to use level 5, but in the original estimate the Sorcerer was far behind so I decided to give him his 6th level features. For Flaming Sphere I assumed it did the initial damage and the secondary ramming effect for 4 additional rounds - not the full minute. I also assumed a 25% chance of the burning damage.

Level 11 The Wizard does 1705 and the Sorcerer does 1420.

The Sorcerer is forced to choose spells that are not fire based because they are superior. The Wizard gains Int on these spells while the sorc doesn't gain Cha. I feel like twinned isn't as good of a choice here..

Google Docs with actual numbers that you can modify (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H1SxsntIaK1IIHwJmR_6aUnUtZE6yWlP4vPzHQLE7Ak).
I would happily encourage you to find my errors or choose better spells.

[silveralen]

uh-huh. because psions are definitely known for their ability to summon and control extraplanar beings. oh wait, no, they aren't at all. well, they're definitely known for illusions, right? oh, not that either? well, necromancy then. oh, what's that you say? they have almost no powers that interact with necromancy at all? well, they're totally known for spells like knock and web, right? oh, huh, that's not a thing either.

Well.... if you go back to 2nd edition psionics they actually had all of that. Web is the only stretch and I'm reasonably certain that there was a way tog et something very close using some of the weirder physical alteration disciplines.

I never used 3rd edition psionics and in 4e everything felt very similar so, from my perspective, it could easily be a matter of more spells, to fill in the gaps in iconic psion powers, rather than different spells.

[SharkForce]

at level 6, the wizard is only recovering one level 3 spell. not 2.

at level 11, wizards cannot recover level 6 spells. unless i'm being brainwashed by previous editions, that means no chain lightning.

[Kryx]

at level 6, the wizard is only recovering one level 3 spell. not 2.

at level 11, wizards cannot recover level 6 spells. unless i'm being brainwashed by previous editions, that means no chain lightning.
I missed the 1/day. Right.

At 11 he can't recover Chain Lightning, you're right. It rounds up, but the spell can't be of 6th or higher. Instead he'll do 2 fireballs which is more efficient anyways.

You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your wizard level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher. For example, if you’re a 4th-level wizard, you can recover up to two levels worth o f spell slots. You can recover either a 2nd-level spell slot or two 1st-level spell slots.

I'll fix the recovery. That should even it out a bit at 6.

[silveralen]

You realize you have the wizard in melee range for a significant portion of the time? Poison spray is 10ft.

Also, part of the problem is the sorcerer is using sorcerer points suboptimally.

Rather than twinning spells, he should be recovering fireballs. That gives him 120ish damage per 5 points vs 74 or so.

[Kryx]

You realize you have the wizard in melee range for a significant portion of the time? Poison spray is 10ft.
Both have to be in melee range sometimes. Burning Hands, Thunderwave, Cone of Cold, and Aganazzar's Scorcher are all essentially melee spells. I'm not sure this disqualifies Poison Spray.

10 feet isn't bad, you can still be behind the fighter.

Though maybe it should be using a different cantrip half the time - assuming he wants to stay at far range for those rounds.

EDIT: Updated the numbers. Not a significant change.

[silveralen]

Actually, I have two questions: Why is the sorcerer using scorching ray over flame sphere and the wizard not, and why is he twinning spells over recovering fireballs? This is a measure where instantaneous damage is irrelevant, so the sorcerer should be using his spells and spell points purely on max damage, no burst damage.

[Kryx]

Actually, I have two questions: Why is the sorcerer using scorching ray over flame sphere and the wizard not, and why is he twinning spells over recovering fireballs? This is a measure where instantaneous damage is irrelevant, so the sorcerer should be using his spells and spell points purely on max damage, no burst damage.
The Sorcerer does not have Flaming Sphere on its spell list. Though the level 11 Sorcerer needs to be updated to use Aganazzar's Scorcher - I found it did more damage than Scorching Ray.

I assumed the Sorcerer was actually using its unique mechanic. I can calculate fireball recovery instead, but that also weakens the argument that Metamagic is worth anything.

EDIT: Assumed Fireball is recovered. Edited the numbers above Sorcerer is further ahead at 6. Still behind at 11.

[silveralen]

The Sorcerer does not have Flaming Sphere on its spell list. Though the level 11 Sorcerer needs to be updated to use Aganazzar's Scorcher - I found it did more damage than Scorching Ray.

I assumed the Sorcerer was actually using its unique mechanic. I can calculate fireball recovery instead, but that also weakens the argument that Metamagic is worth anything.

It is worth something: instantaneous damage. That isn't what you are measuring right now. If you want to calculate maximum single turn damage then you factor in things like empower, twin, or quicken.

Those are two completely different things. Sorcerer can switch between the two due to his spell point system, burning overall damage (spell slots) for greater instantaneous damage in the form of higher level spells or more metamagic, or turn his spells points directly into spells to boost overall damage. That's his flexibility.

Also, using your measure, wouldn't wall of fire beat cone of cold for sorcerer? Possibly for wizard actually.

[Kryx]

It is worth something: instantaneous damage. That isn't what you are measuring right now. If you want to calculate maximum single turn damage then you factor in things like empower, twin, or quicken.

Those are two completely different things. Sorcerer can switch between the two due to his spell point system, burning overall damage (spell slots) for greater instantaneous damage in the form of higher level spells or more metamagic, or turn his spells points directly into spells to boost overall damage. That's his flexibility.
Currently his damage at 6 (his most advantageous level to compare) is 111% of the Wizards. At 11 the Sorc is 95% of the Wizard's damage.

The Sorc may be able to burst better and we could surely measure that if someone has an idea how to do so.

For overall damage throughout the day the Sorcerer is not significantly advantaged as was earlier claimed. He's actually behind the Wizard at mid levels.
This is his own niche where he's supposed to be the best. Therefore there isn't any reason to have the Sorcerer be significantly less versatile. Spell choices, the lack of switching prepared spells, and a few less prepared is already too much imo.

[Kryx]

Also, using your measure, wouldn't wall of fire beat cone of cold for sorcerer? Possibly for wizard actually.
I actually assumed wall of Fire to be too big. It is only 20 feet in diameter which changes how many creatures it would hit on average.

Honestly the best pure damage choices would likely be fireball at most spell levels/slots.

EDIT: Updated 4th level spells to be fireballs. Gave the Wizard a higher chance to hit more enemies with AoEs due to Sculpt spell. Tied at 6 and the Wizard is significantly ahead at 11.

[silveralen]

I actually assumed wall of Fire to be too big. It is only 20 feet in diameter which changes how many creatures it would hit on average.

Honestly the best pure damage choices would likely be fireball at most spell levels/slots.

EDIT: Updated 4th level spells to be fireballs. Gave the Wizard a higher chance to hit more enemies with AoEs due to Sculpt spell. Tied at 6 and the Wizard is significantly ahead at 11.

Are you now claiming you lose an entire .75 hits due to not having sculpt spell? How many encounters do you think this is? It'll be the first spell to go off, your team can just hold action if your initiative isn't as high with no real issue. Maybe 1-2 a day you have to lose an enemy, but not the majority. Even then, chances are your frontline teammate can soak the 20 damage it might inflict to them no problem. I highly doubt you will ever need to avoid targeting more than once a day. If that.

If you insist on keeping it at a .75 difference, drop a recovered fireball and whatever the last sorc point is being used on to use careful spell on the first 6 and bring their damage up to wizard level.

[Kryx]

Are you now claiming you lose an entire .75 hits due to not having sculpt spell?
There is definitely a huge difference between Sculpted and non-sculpted spells in my play experience. The opening Salvo is likely more clear, but with the way the Sorc uses spells at 11 the fireball isn't used until 3rd round.
All of the chances are entirely DM dependent. Some DMs may send hordes, some DMs may have you fight solos. What I'm aiming for is a guesstimate that applies to the general situation and for all rounds. The Wizard can ignore 4 creatures with his fireball - which means he can hit everything at any round without worrying about his allies at all. It's really significant. I do think a Wizard hitting 1 extra creature 75% of the time isn't unreasonable.

If you think Careful spell is a better choice than twinning or recovering then I can simulate that - though my gut tells me the numbers will be within 5% of where they are now.


I do want to improve the simulation, but I think it's also very important to understand that everything isn't "fine" even if the Sorc can tie or beat the Wizard as they give up so much to simply exist. Even not counting sculpt spell you can see the percentage difference above - the Sorc is ahead at 6 and behind at 11, but within +/- 5-10% each time.

[silveralen]

There is definitely a huge difference between Sculpted and non-sculpted spells in my play experience. The opening Salvo is likely more clear, but with the way the Sorc uses spells at 11 the fireball isn't used until 3rd round.
All of the chances are entirely DM dependent. Some DMs may send hordes, some DMs may have you fight solos. What I'm aiming for is a guesstimate that applies to the general situation and for all rounds. The Wizard can ignore 4 creatures with his fireball - which means he can hit everything at any round without worrying about his allies at all. It's really significant. I do think a Wizard hitting 1 extra creature 75% of the time isn't unreasonable.

Mine disagrees entirely. If we need AoE, the players don't charge into the middle of enemies. I think your estimate is so utterly absurd as to be irrelevant, your overvalue that ability hugely. My party has never had anyone who could sculpt spells and not once has the caster ever been forced into suboptimal targeting due to it, usually because ending the encounter faster actually saves us HP even if we get clipped.

Why not boost the number of hit targets for dragon sorcerer by .5 for all cone spells at 14? Afterall, he has wings then, so he can maneuver a lot better

The effect is negligible.


I do want to improve the simulation, but I think it's also very important to understand that everything isn't "fine" even if the Sorc can tie or beat the Wizard as they give up so much to simply exist. Even not counting sculpt spell you can see the percentage difference above - the Sorc is ahead at 6 and behind at 11, but within +/- 5-10% each time.

You really think damage is all sorcerer has? Beyond the fact that literally no one claimed sustained damage was the sort of damage sorcerer was good at but we will ignore that.

Sorcerer can easily specialize in 2-3 areas even with 15 spells and 4 metamagic. Take say quicken, heighten, careful, and twin. For damage spells, you really need maybe 5-7 spells total, leaving you 8-10 to pick of the rest. Grab things like haste, greater invisibility, suggestion, dominate, hold, etc. You are as good a damage caster as the wizard (at worst you offer more burst and less sustained at high levels, or your team has to be a bit more careful around you) but you can also beat the tar out of him for disabling enemies or buffing allies. You could go other routes as well.

Wizard specializes in one and has a lot of average-good areas. Sorcerer has 2-3 specialization and almost nothing elsewhere. That's the difference. It isn't a single area for sorcerer, at least it shouldn't be.

[archaeo]

You really think damage is all sorcerer has? Beyond the fact that literally no one claimed sustained damage was the sort of damage sorcerer was good at but we will ignore that.

Actually, I'm probably the one who brought up the idea of "sustained damage" by bringing up damage-per-day as a measure. :smallfrown:

Otherwise I basically agree, insofar as Sorcerers certainly have a balanced place in the system even with 15 spells.

[silveralen]

Actually, I'm probably the one who brought up the idea of "sustained damage" by bringing up damage-per-day as a measure. :smallfrown:

Otherwise I basically agree, insofar as Sorcerers certainly have a balanced place in the system even with 15 spells.

Okay my mistake someone did. Even though he should have known better because that's going to be even/slightly in favor of the wizard at mid levels. I expected more from you!

[Kryx]

So it looks like you've taken the position of "I can't mathematically prove my point so I better insult you and your method". It's no wonder you have a reputation here..
I'll humor you anyways...



Mine disagrees entirely. If we need AoE, the players don't charge into the middle of enemies.
So you don't like melee range AoE spells? Sorry.. that's WotC design, not mine. The caster can cast from range, it's just not the most optimal damage - which is what my graph shows.


I think your estimate is so utterly absurd as to be irrelevant
Please by all means make your own or offer corrections. You disagreed that a 75% chance to hit another creature is reasonable for fireball - what is reasonable?
Again, you don't like my numbers on sculpt spell? They were within +/- 5-10%. It likely was going to get worse for them as levels went up. They are not better at their one niche than a Wizard.


My party has never had anyone who could sculpt spells and not once has the caster ever been forced into suboptimal targeting due to it, usually because ending the encounter faster actually saves us HP even if we get clipped.
Again this is entirely dependent on GMs. Based on the encounters given in the published adventures targeting will be an issue.


Why not boost the number of hit targets for dragon sorcerer by .5 for all cone spells at 14? Afterall, he has wings then, so he can maneuver a lot better
Wings wouldn't help very much at all as targets are still adjacent to allies.


The effect is negligible.
The effect is no where near negligible. You could argue that the Sorc/Wiz uses all his AoE spells at the most optimal times - and my numbers try to simulate that. Obviously you don't see any 1 man fireballs. But being able to ignore allies is a huge boon.


You really think damage is all sorcerer has? Beyond the fact that literally no one claimed sustained damage was the sort of damage sorcerer was good at but we will ignore that.
Actually weaseldust made some numbers that were based on sustained damage. I used his model. If you have a better model please do share it.
Many people were making conclusions on his data and had no reservations about using it - because it proved their point. Unfortunately it was wrong. I have shown so now.
Nearly everyone in this thread has stated that the Sorcerer's niche is a blaster. If you believe his niche is elsewhere please do share.


Sorcerer can easily specialize in 2-3 areas even with 15 spells and 4 metamagic. Take say quicken, heighten, careful, and twin. For damage spells, you really need maybe 5-7 spells total, leaving you 8-10 to pick of the rest. Grab things like haste, greater invisibility, suggestion, dominate, hold, etc. You are as good a damage caster as the wizard (at worst you offer more burst and less sustained at high levels, or your team has to be a bit more careful around you) but you can also beat the tar out of him for disabling enemies or buffing allies. You could go other routes as well.
Wizards can do the same thing while having a ton more versatility with the ability to swap out their spells every day and even during the day.


Wizard specializes in one and has a lot of average-good areas. Sorcerer has 2-3 specialization and almost nothing elsewhere. That's the difference. It isn't a single area for sorcerer, at least it shouldn't be.
Wut? Wizards are generalists. They pick a school, sure, but they still have way more options than the Sorc, not less.



I'm entirely positive even if I spent another day graphing out the burst damage and showed you that a Sorc was not statistically advantaged there either you would still claim that somehow they're doing just fine.

But again, to humor you: What is the Sorcerer's niche, if not damage?






Sorcerers certainly have a balanced place in the system even with 15 spells.
And what place is that? A less versatile Wizard that in merely competent in their own niche? I say this as a Sorcerer lover. I would never want to play a Wizard on fluff alone.

[DivisibleByZero]

Nearly everyone in this thread has stated that the Sorcerer's niche is a blaster. If you believe his niche is elsewhere please do share.

I never claimed that.
Blaster is one niche that he can take on. It's not the only one. It just happens to be the one that the people in this thread appear to be focused on at the moment.
Sorcs can fill any niche except basically summoner extremely well. They make particularly good Enchanter style CC because of metamagic.

As for you new numbers.... I did them myself last night as well. Mine says that Sorc wins by exactly 100 pts.

EVOKER WIZARD (+5 evoc spells) (overchannel max 5th once) (single target)
signature spells: scorching ray & fireball
27 rounds until out of slots
level 1 (4): chromatic orb (3d8+5) ~ 18.5 (*4) ~ 74
level 2 (3): scorching ray 3*(2d6+5) ~ 19*3 ~ 57 (*3) ~ 171
signature scorching ray 3*(2d6+5) ~ 57
level 3 (3): scorching ray 4*(2d6+5) ~ 64 (*3) ~ 192
signature fireball 8d6+5 ~ 33
level 4 (3): scorching ray 5*(2d6+5) ~ 71 (*3) ~ 213
level 5 (3): scorching ray 6*(2d6+5) ~ 78 (*3) ~ 234
arcane recovered scorching ray 6*(2d6+5) = 78
overchannelled arcane recovered scorching ray max 6*(12+5) = 114
level 6 (2): scorching ray 7*(2d6+5) ~ 85 (*2) ~ 170
level 7 (2): scorching ray 8*(2d6+5) ~ 92 (*2) ~ 184
level 8 (2): scorching ray 9*(2d6+5) ~ 99 (*2) 198
level 9 (1): meteor swarm 20d6F+20d6B+5 ~ 145

Total single target fire damage 1,863 over 27 rounds

DRAGON SORCERER (+cha mod to damage) (single target)

cantrip: fire bolt 4d10+5 ~ 27
level 1 (4): chromatic orb (3d8+5) ~ 18.5 (*4) ~ 74
level 2 (3): scorching ray 3*(2d6+5) ~ 19*3 ~ 57 (*3) ~ 171
level 3 (3): scorching ray 4*(2d6+5) ~ 64 (*3) ~ 192
level 4 (3): scorching ray 5*(2d6+5) ~ 71 (*3) ~ 213
level 5 (3): scorching ray 6*(2d6+5) ~ 78 (*3) ~ 234
level 6 (2): scorching ray 7*(2d6+5) ~ 85 (*2) ~ 170
level 7 (2): scorching ray 8*(2d6+5) ~ 92 (*2) ~ 184
level 8 (2): scorching ray 9*(2d6+5) ~ 99 (*2) 198
level 9 (1): meteor swarm 20d6F+20d6B+5 ~ 145

Total single target fire damage 1,581 over 23 rounds
Plus ten rounds of Quickened cantrips (+270) = 1851
Plus four rounds of cantrips (+112) = 1963
Total single target fire damage 1,963 over 27 rounds

[archaeo]

So it looks like you've taken the position of "I can't mathematically prove my point so I better insult you and your method". It's no wonder you have a reputation here..
I'll humor you anyways...

I don't see many insults here except for yours, Kryx.

[silveralen]

So it looks like you've taken the position of "I can't mathematically prove my point so I better insult you and your method". It's no wonder you have a reputation here..

Sorry but you are talking about mathematics anymore. Sculpt spells value is inherently subjective, we have no way to empirically measure how much it may or may not effect damage. All we can do is offer opinions or guesses based on our own experiences, and yours are completely out of whack with mine which caused shock and disbelief on my part.

Considering the gap had been consistently narrowing as I pointed out the various usages for metamagic that offered more than twinning firebolts, I can't help but feel you decided to abandon actual math to starting adding subjective opinion disguised as math, all supporting your preconceived notion. Maybe I am not being fair, but given my own experiences in play it seemed so over the top I couldn't imagine it actually being someone's experience.


Please by all means make your own or offer corrections. You disagreed that a 75% chance to hit another creature is reasonable for fireball - what is reasonable?
Again, you don't like my numbers on sculpt spell? They were within +/- 5-10%. It likely was going to get worse for them as levels went up. They are not better at their one niche than a Wizard.

Like I said, 1/6 times needing to re-target for an average loss of one enemy seems much more reasonable to me (even then I'm inclined to think you'd still go for max damage, most melee allies aren't going to be overly scared by 20 damage at level 11). That'd be around 3.83, might as well call it 3.75. That is the most cautious my 5e tables have ever been.

But the thing is... that is my table. Is my table typical? Atypical? How often will allies even be at risk from AoE damage tot he point the sorcerer needs to pull the shot, my two longest running groups were ones where healing was abundant and ending the encounter is the first priority, meaning a bit of friendly fire isn't a big issue. How much of the advantage of sculpt spells is convenience, with tactics and communication from the party allowing the same general effect, and how much of it is always helpful?

It'll vary hugely depending on the type of encounters, party composition, etc. Imagine a party with a bear barbarian, monk and rogue as the frontline classes. Two classes with evasion and dex prof (plus dex focus likely), one who will soak half fire damage and has advantage to save vs dex plus a decent dex score. Is that a party where tossing fireballs worries me overmuch? Not really. Maybe an oath of ancients paladin instead of one of those, maybe he even took shield master or the riding feat. That's assuming the positioning of enemies even causes you too need to do that, unless you always face hordes who surround your teammates you likely won't need to bend over backwards to avoid hitting them.

It is too subjective to easily quantify.


Wings wouldn't help very much at all as targets are still adjacent to allies.

When the angle of the attack matters and your origin point matters (cone spells) it actually does. But again, how much is how to quantify.


Nearly everyone in this thread has stated that the Sorcerer's niche is a blaster. If you believe his niche is elsewhere please do share.

He is alright as a blaster, but again you weren't even measuring his effectiveness at blaster you were measuring sustained AoE damage. Blaster can be everything from single target burst (completely ignored in your analysis) to sustained AoE. If someone used the same sort of spread sheet to argue the other way around they were equally wrong.

Sorcerer is better at burst over sustained blasting, and favors 1-2 enemies over hoards. He isn't outright superior to evocation wizard at blasting, he does it differently. I'd probably favor evocation wizard myself, but only slightly. Really, sorcerer likes to toss twin around which really only works on two enemies. None of the others give big boosts to damage. It's weird and a major flaw of the wording of twin and quicken basically locking out some of their useful blasting applications.

For other things? Again, I have said it over and over heighten is great for sticking disabling abilities like dominate and suggestion on enemies. Twin gets you more mileage from buffs.


Wizards can do the same thing while having a ton more versatility with the ability to swap out their spells every day and even during the day.

Wut? Wizards are generalists. They pick a school, sure, but they still have way more options than the Sorc, not less.

Try to avoid thinking specialists or generalists, because neither describes either class appropriately at all.

You can build a sorcerer that buffs, disables and blasts very well. A wizard who focuses on blasting will match or slightly exceed them in that category and have more overall options, but when it comes to buffing or disabling the sorcerer has the edge. Things like heighten, quicken, or twin are great for things other than blasting (arguably better for other things).

This is due to how sorcerer works. Metamagic is more versatile than the subclass features of a wizard. An evocation wizard has no real advantages to casting non damage spells. He casts such spells at their baseline power. A sorcerer who focuses on blasting can apply their metamagic abilities to other spells that aren't directly involved in blasting, meaning they have greater effectiveness outside that.

2-3 strong areas versus 1 strong area tons of average areas. That's the difference.

Rather ironically, giving sorcerers a ton of spells actually means they outperform wizards in most situations. A sorcerer with access to buffing, disabling, blasting, utility, summoning, and divination spells will outperform the wizard in all of those areas save the one the wizard is actually specialized in, and even then the difference won't be significant.


I'm entirely positive even if I spent another day graphing out the burst damage and showed you that a Sorc was not statistically advantaged there either you would still claim that somehow they're doing just fine.

Obviously he would if you assume overchannel on that spell, though you can do that only once a day it offers the highest burst of a single action. At least I think it does, it might be sorcerer dropping empower+heighten could match it but it probably depends on the spell being used.

Sorcerer blasting favors the midrange for some reason, I don't think it was intentional design choices but rather a byproduct of how they crafted twin spell and quicken. If you could drop two fireballs in a turn with either, or drop two single target damage spells on one guy, sorcerer could do much better but he is somewhat stuck in this odd midrange.

[Wartex1]

You should account for the fact that the (Red Dragon) Sorcerer only adds his damage for fire spells, and many creature have fire resistance or immunity, while the Wizard gets those bonuses on other elements as well.

[SharkForce]

You should account for the fact that the (Red Dragon) Sorcerer only adds his damage for fire spells, and many creature have fire resistance or immunity, while the Wizard gets those bonuses on other elements as well.

elemental adept is such an obvious choice for a draconic sorcerer that i wouldn't consider only resistance relevant.

on a side note, while a sorcerer will be better at single-target CC due to heighten... that is generally the CC i care least about. single targets tend to have legendary resistance if they're intended to actually be a challenge, and the single-target CC spells are generally the least valuable (unless they extend upwards to be multi-target).

same with buffs. they just generally speaking aren't that good. every now and then, twinned haste is a great idea. most of the time, it is not as good of an idea as an AOE control spell that targets an appropriate save... so you probably actually want careful spell if anything so that you can drop webs on your own team.

twin is good for damage, and less bad than not having twin for buffs. heighten is just generally pretty meh. one target for one save? most targets either aren't valuable enough to single-target control them, or are too difficult to single-target control whether you have heighten or not. dominate might be worth it on a high-threat mook if they didn't get repeated saves, including most likely a save with advantage to kick things off (thus making it a regular save in the first place).

the spells i would want for a control sorcerer are subtle spell (for control in social scenarios with suggestion, for example... much more useful than twin suggestion, but basically means you took a spell for one single scenario only; this is the exact *opposite* of what sorcerers want to do with their spells since they have so few) and careful spell (many CC spells have no effect on a successful save).

of course, those leave them in pretty bad shape as far as damage spells are concerned, quicken does very little for the control sorcerer (it's best use is to get extra damage out via cantrip or action-based spell), distant does very little for any sorcerer, extended is another very situational metamagic (great for, say, casting foresight on someone just before a long rest. but metamagic and spells known are limited for a sorcerer, so again, this isn't really a good use). it might be useful with some of the cleric buffs that don't need concentration, but it's really there for multiclass builds and maybe some favoured souls now, imo.

distant spell is, again, super-niche. and empowered spell is purely damage-based.

there's basically two options that are actually good for a control sorcerer, and even of those one is pretty niche.

for a buff caster... well, there's arguably 2, but sorcerers mostly don't get much in the way of spell selection, buffing has been nerfed into the ground in 5e anyways, and the sorcerer spell list doesn't exactly lend itself to buffing allies for the most part.

basically, the reason sorcerers get stuck as a damage-dealer is that their class features tend to support that more than anything else, and you don't need a very broad selection of spells to do that. meanwhile, you do kinda need a broad spell selection to be able to do other roles well... you ideally want spells that target every save, for example... the most powerful metamagic is not remotely as useful as targeting a -1 save modifier in late game. you want a variety of effects to account for enemies with immunities (to paralysis, or fear, or charms, or whatever). you want to have low level options (so your level 1 and 2 slots are not useless) and high level options (because they're typically vastly superior). you want to have hold person so you can hit groups of humanoids, and hold monster so that you can target them at all.

all things that cost very little for a wizard, but cut into your very limited spells known as a sorcerer.

(that said, i do agree that the comparison of sustained damage between sorcerer and wizard feels pointless... burst damage would tell a very different story, with sorcerer being much better, in a way that is not the case with basically any other category of things you can do with spells).

[DivisibleByZero]

Try to avoid thinking specialists or generalists, because neither describes either class appropriately at all.

You can build a sorcerer that buffs, disables and blasts very well. A wizard who focuses on blasting will match or slightly exceed them in that category and have more overall options, but when it comes to buffing or disabling the sorcerer has the edge. Things like heighten, quicken, or twin are great for things other than blasting (arguably better for other things).

This is due to how sorcerer works. Metamagic is more versatile than the subclass features of a wizard. An evocation wizard has no real advantages to casting non damage spells. He casts such spells at their baseline power. A sorcerer who focuses on blasting can apply their metamagic abilities to other spells that aren't directly involved in blasting, meaning they have greater effectiveness outside that.

2-3 strong areas versus 1 strong area tons of average areas. That's the difference.

Precisely this. All of this.

A wizard's versatility is in spell selection. He specializes in one school, and he's great at that one thing. For everything else, he's moderate. But he has versatility in being moderate.

A sorcerer's versatility is not in spell selection, but comes from within the spells. He doesn't have a more versatile spell selection, but his spells are more versatile themselves.

So while the wizard has one specialty, is moderate at everything else, and is very versatile with spell selection, a sorcerer can have multiple specialties, is moderate at some things, and the spells that he knows can become versatile if he desires.
Neither is better. Neither is worse. They just work differently.

But as I said earlier, we have house ruled that sorcerers automatically know one spell form their respective bonus list, and can learn the other with a known slot. They also gain half as many sorcery points as the chart shows (rounded up), but those SP recharge on a short rest. They also learn new metamagic every four levels after 3rd, gaining 6/8 total by 19th level.
With these changes, sorcerers are pretty much exactly where we want them to be at our table.

[Kryx]

I don't see many insults here except for yours, Kryx.
If you aren't seeing them then perhaps you should read the thread and your own words a bit more carefully.

You posted a few condescending things before I responded in kind.

You just see that one number is smaller than the other guy's number and cry foul.

I'm not sure how he could've been much clearer, really.

And then silveralen and I were discussing things civilly and adjusting the numbers until he started insulting the methodology as soon as he discovered the difference in chance of AoE spells hitting multiple targets and called the system (the same system used earlier):

I think your estimate is so utterly absurd as to be irrelevant

Why not boost the number of hit targets for dragon sorcerer by .5 for all cone spells at 14? Afterall, he has wings then, so he can maneuver a lot better
That's just childish. And he has a reputation for arguing in this manner.


Discuss the issue, discuss the methodology.
The issue is he suddenly insulted the same methodology that others were drawing conclusions from as soon as the numbers started to disagree with his hypothesis.
I'm happy to adjust numbers and refine the formulas as you saw a page ago, but that post was quite childish imo.






You should account for the fact that the (Red Dragon) Sorcerer only adds his damage for fire spells, and many creature have fire resistance or immunity, while the Wizard gets those bonuses on other elements as well.
Not really an effective way to do that. And the Wizard uses just as many fire spells.

[Wartex1]

If you aren't seeing them then perhaps you should read the thread and your own words a bit more carefully.

You posted a few condescending things before I responded in kind.



And then silveralen and I were discussing things civilly and adjusting the numbers until he started insulting the methodology as soon as he discovered the difference in chance of AoE spells hitting multiple targets and called the system (the same system used earlier):


That's just childish. And he has a reputation for arguing in this manner.


Discuss the issue, discuss the methodology.
The issue is he suddenly insulted the same methodology that others were drawing conclusions from as soon as the numbers started to disagree with his hypothesis.
I'm happy to adjust numbers and refine the formulas as you saw a page ago, but that post was quite childish imo.






Not really an effective way to do that. And the Wizard uses just as many fire spells.

You could also do calculations with spells of other elements to see how they line up when not specializing in that element.

[silveralen]

And then silveralen and I were discussing things civilly and adjusting the numbers until he started insulting the methodology as soon as he discovered the difference in chance of AoE spells hitting multiple targets and called the system (the same system used earlier):

That's just childish. And he has a reputation for arguing in this manner.

First off, it was absurd from my viewpoint and I explained why. You've yet to address that of course. Or indeed my explanation of why this is not measuring their blasting potential but merely sustained AoE potential. Or why sustained AoE potential is not all sorcerer is good for. Or the other myriad of issues I had with the conclusions you were drawing from your data, which had up till this change had been useful if narrow in scope.

Second, it was not the same system. You went from pure damage comparison to subjective personal experience influenced comparison. Your methodology was sound but became flawed, and I pointed out because I was blown away by the sheer difference you attributed to what was, in my experience, a very trivial ability. What was I suppose to do, somehow mathematically prove that is the difference? Too many factors were involved, from DM tactics, party composition, enemy composition, level of party communication. In some groups it might never be a major benefit, in others it might be the only way to ever use AoE spells effectively. It was subjective and I dismissed it as being irrelevant to an actual number comparison as it could not be backed up factually or even be estimated reasonably. i'm sorry, but injecting flawed methodology into a discussion is not going to be met with smiles and hugs from me.

Third, if the best you can do for me being rude is a sentence bracketed with [sarcasm] and vague insinuations about my "reputation", is it not possible you let preconceived notions influence how you read my statements? I haven't even come close to wanting to trying to insult you. If you took sarcasm as insulting... well we obviously won't ever be chums.


Discuss the issue, discuss the methodology.
The issue is he suddenly insulted the same methodology that others were drawing conclusions from as soon as the numbers started to disagree with his hypothesis.
I'm happy to adjust numbers and refine the formulas as you saw a page ago, but that post was quite childish imo.

See the bit above, it was not the same methodology. The previous methodology did not require making extreme vague estimates about the value of an ability with no mathematical backing.

The closest to anything like that previous in the spread sheet was estimating number of targets hit initially, but that estimate effected both equally and mainly indicated we were discussing fairly reasonably large groups of enemies, so it didn't cause issues.

Your methodology became flawed, I don't really know why you think injecting personal opinion into what was previously a pure math exercise doesn't change anything, but it surely does. I mean, you can make the case your new methodology was designed to look at an extremely small subset of situations where enemies were consistently clustered in the exact manner relative to the party, but the problem is it doesn't even work as an attempt to average situations where the sorcerer only catches 2 enemies and situations where the sorcerer gets 4, as the former actually encourages the sorcerer to say use twin spell or the like over and adjusted fireball.

Yes, one interjection like that can basically ruin data. Sorry but it can. Before, the data was relevant (and still favored wizard regardless, it will no matter what at that level unless every optimal spell is fire and on sorcerer's list, and overchannel eventually swings it further towards wizard). Afterward there are too many questionable factors, too many assumptions being made, too many variables not being considered because the model has become complex enough we lack a good method to compare it. I'm sorry if you find this to be insulting, but looking at it I don't see the current spreadsheet as providing any useful data.

The fact you are claiming bias when the changes I am suggesting still result in the same conclusion, albeit to a less extreme degree, is weird to me.

[weaseldust]

Actually weaseldust made some numbers that were based on sustained damage. I used his model. If you have a better model please do share it.
Many people were making conclusions on his data and had no reservations about using it - because it proved their point. Unfortunately it was wrong. I have shown so now.
Nearly everyone in this thread has stated that the Sorcerer's niche is a blaster. If you believe his niche is elsewhere please do share.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to be taking the position that sorcerers are or are designed to be best at sustained damage. I was interested in comparing the effects of different class features (Arcane Recovery vs Sorcery Points, extra damage from the dragon sorcerer vs advantage from the wild magic sorcerer) as directly as possible, which is why I kept the spell selection simple. (Also because I didn't want to have to estimate the damage of all the different spells. Personally, I've never found Flaming Sphere remotely useful, for instance, but some people take it. And the damage from Fireball is often wasted - because only creatures with low HP are likely to be found bunched together enough to make using it worthwhile - but by how much?)

As far as I can tell, the sorcerer is intended to be good at improvisation. The wizard is in a sense more versatile given knowledge of what they will face or time to cast rituals, but a sorcerer can decide they really need a level X slot right now, or really need more damage this round, or really need this particular spell not to fail, and make that happen. On top of that, the wild magic sorcerer is good at buffs and debuffs and the dragon sorcerer is unusually tough (doesn't have to waste slots on Mage Armour, for instance) and a bit better at damage. So the sorcerer gets a kind of versatility, just a different kind from the wizard. (To be honest, the wizard's kind is less useful than it looks too. Most of the things doable by rituals and the wizard's more situational spells would be achieved through skills or DM fiat if the wizard didn't do them first.)

[SharkForce]

metamagic is not very versatile. most of it only works on specific types of spells, and is only useful in a specific situation.

if you have 4 metamagic techniques and one spell known, you don't have 4 spells known. you have one spell known that can be slightly changed in probably 1-2 ways usefully. the spell is not really more versatile. it still does the same thing with metamagic as it did without metamagic.

[silveralen]

metamagic is not very versatile. most of it only works on specific types of spells, and is only useful in a specific situation.

if you have 4 metamagic techniques and one spell known, you don't have 4 spells known. you have one spell known that can be slightly changed in probably 1-2 ways usefully. the spell is not really more versatile. it still does the same thing with metamagic as it did without metamagic.

But being able to increase the DC of a spell by 3, target two instead of one person. or double the duration can make it significantly more powerful. Take everyone's favorite spell:suggestion. Any of those options can create a much more powerful spell, though the former two are probably better.

One spell is one spell, but being able to make that spell more powerful in exactly the way you need is helpful. Highish save? Heighten. Need more time for it to work? Extend. Need to turn a single target into a multi target? Twin. Metamagic opens up more options for each spell, noticeably more powerful options.

[SharkForce]

if you need twin suggestion, you need subtle suggestion more most likely. if you need heightened suggestion, you also need subtle suggestion more, or alternately you should be using a spell that targets a save that is not as high if you want to just get rid of an enemy in a fight. if you need extended suggestion, once again, you need subtle suggestion more.

for suggestion, if you want to use it in a fight, it's only because you don't have an actual good tool for a job and you're settling for a third-rate CC spell. if you want to use it outside of a fight, then twin, extend, and heighten are terrible because it is vastly more important that nobody knows you're using suggestion than anything else. to say that suggestion is the best mind control spell at low levels is really more to say that suggestion is the least bad of the low level mind control spells. it has very little to do with suggestion being great, and everything to do with the fact that the others are so bad. it is single-target, and the only way to make it work in the vast majority of plausible scenarios where you might want to make someone do something on your behalf is to make it impossible to tell that you cast any spell on the target at all (and, as noted, in a fight it is much better to use a different effect that hits multiple targets, preferably with a bad save, than to heighten the spell. for that multiple target spell it may be nice to have careful spell, but at that point you're not helping your damage with that metamagic selection particularly).

[DivisibleByZero]

Is there ever even one single topic that you don't argue about?

[weaseldust]

Doesn't Suggestion involve actually telling the target what to do out loud as the verbal component? That's how I interpreted it. They definitely have to be able to hear and understand you. So I'm not sure how Subtle Spell[I] is useful for it. [I]Subtle Spell might be useful for Friends and similar spells, though.

I'd say Heighten Spell is useful when you need to take advantage of circumstances that won't exist next turn, so you need the spell to work this turn rather than have another go the next, or when the target is an unusually tough one. It's the sort of thing you use in dire straits. But that's a kind of versatility - being able to adapt to circumstances as they occur, rather than having to prepare for them.

It's like the wizard has a penknife with a screwdriver and corkscrew and bottle opener, but it takes a couple of minutes to pull any of them out and they can't be adapted to deal with particularly intransigent screws or bottles. The sorcerer has a Bowie knife and can use it to immediately open any bottle, but the results will be crude and it will require a bit of effort. Since versatility is just usefulness in a range of situations, and the sorcerer can be useful in situations the wizard can't deal with, the sorcerer is more versatile in one dimension, even while being simultaneously less versatile in another.

[SharkForce]

except that more spells lets you be versatile in most of the ways the sorcerer can, plus lets you be versatile in new ways tomorrow.

as far as suggestion is concerned, nothing says the vocal component is giving the suggestion. in fact, the suggestion can be 1-2 sentences long, which can easily exceed 6 seconds. so, as far as i can tell, you cast the spell, then it lets you make a suggestion. on a side note, some degree of sleight of hand will also be necessary, since for some reason subtle spell does not do anything at all about material components.

[silveralen]

if you need twin suggestion, you need subtle suggestion more most likely. if you need heightened suggestion, you also need subtle suggestion more, or alternately you should be using a spell that targets a save that is not as high if you want to just get rid of an enemy in a fight. if you need extended suggestion, once again, you need subtle suggestion more.

for suggestion, if you want to use it in a fight, it's only because you don't have an actual good tool for a job and you're settling for a third-rate CC spell. if you want to use it outside of a fight, then twin, extend, and heighten are terrible because it is vastly more important that nobody knows you're using suggestion than anything else. to say that suggestion is the best mind control spell at low levels is really more to say that suggestion is the least bad of the low level mind control spells. it has very little to do with suggestion being great, and everything to do with the fact that the others are so bad. it is single-target, and the only way to make it work in the vast majority of plausible scenarios where you might want to make someone do something on your behalf is to make it impossible to tell that you cast any spell on the target at all (and, as noted, in a fight it is much better to use a different effect that hits multiple targets, preferably with a bad save, than to heighten the spell. for that multiple target spell it may be nice to have careful spell, but at that point you're not helping your damage with that metamagic selection particularly).

Suggestion is mentioned because, unlike almost every other spell that shuts down a target, it doesn't allow multiple saves. So, one save that's now really really hard to make or the target is out? Or removing two targets from the fight as long as needed, none of this 1-2 turn stuff you get with the hold or even dominate spells. That's what people love about it, and why it works so well for sorcerer. His metamagic complements the already strong spell in such a way that it makes up for lacking other dedicated spells. You don't need the hold spells when you can twin suggestion or heighten mass suggestion, you've got something every bit as good that also works as a charm spell.

Sorcerer takes a certain amount of system mastery, of that I agree. You have to carefully pick spells that complement your metamagic to give the widest variety of abilities possible. But, if you actually do that, you are left with a very powerful arsenal of abilities.

Also, the whole "target another save" thing is highly overrated since practically all similar abilities target similar saves. If you want a certain effect, it will 9/10 be the same save, and if it isn't chances are said effect is only marginally similar or has drawbacks. It also requires an intense amount of metagaming, something which may not work at every table.

[SharkForce]

lasting the whole time with no saving throw is nice. but if you take one enemy out of the fight for the 4-5 rounds the fight is probably going to last (heck, let's say it's even as much as 10 rounds), that isn't as good as taking 5 enemies out in the first round and 3-4 in the second and 2-3 in the third. actions at the start are more valuable than actions at the end (once you get the fight tilting in your favour, you're in much better shape). so i'd much rather see a confusion or fear that wrecks most of the enemies than a twinned suggestion (on a side note, fear doesn't allow a new saving throw if you can keep them from getting away... not always possible, but occasionally it will work just fine... especially if you can combine it with an effect that immobilizes an enemy and requires taking a non-dash action to escape... for example, grapple. of course, careful spell so that you don't fear your allies would be much more valuable in this scenario... which is what i already said).

or a hypnotic pattern, which not only costs the actions of the creatures that fail the save, but potentially the actions of the creatures that made the save.

you are right that alternate saves will often lead to different results. that said, it is almost certain to be better to inflict a very unpleasant negative effect on a large group of enemies, regardless of nature, than to inflict one specific negative effect on a single creature. particularly since the single creatures you most want to effect have the ability to just make saves whether they have disadvantage or not, being legendary. a web or stinking cloud is far more likely to swing the fight in your favour then a heightened suggestion (and again, careful spell amps these up considerably more, but does very little for damage dealing).

you *can* build a sorcerer to do decent CC... but you're gonna eat up your spells known really fast trying to cover multiple status conditions and saves, and your metamagic choices won't support damage very well at all if you do (until you finally get your third metamagic). and if you go CC and damage (which you won't be able to do at all reasonably until high levels, and even then your limited spell selection will keep your CC from being as good as you might want), you won't have any spells known left for utility or defence to keep you alive so that you can actually keep castin.

as to metagaming... i don't see why you would need to do that. first of all, there are some fairly obvious patterns, and someone with 20 int or 20 wis should be able to figure those out pretty easily (big tough enemies usually have good con saves, while fast sneaky enemies usually do not. big tough enemies often have bad dex saves, fast sneaky enemies usually have excellent ones. smart enemies often have good int and wis saves, but often lack in dex and con saves. and so forth)

what's more, especially for wizards, they get access to knowledge skills and generally have a very high intelligence score. knowing about the game world is kinda their area of specialty. if you're a wizard with 20 intelligence and nature proficiency, *not* knowing the weaknesses of many (more-or-less) natural creatures is out of character for you.

what kind of idiot do you think these characters are that they would be completely unaware of the concept of different creatures having different strengths and weaknesses? do you expect your fighters to think they're going to win an arm-wrestling match against a storm giant, or do you allow them to be aware of the fact that the huge tall muscle-y giant is probably really strong? and, if you allow the latter, than why do you call it metagaming when a wizard does the same sort of thing?

[silveralen]

you are right that alternate saves will often lead to different results. that said, it is almost certain to be better to inflict a very unpleasant negative effect on a large group of enemies, regardless of nature, than to inflict one specific negative effect on a single creature. particularly since the single creatures you most want to effect have the ability to just make saves whether they have disadvantage or not, being legendary. a web or stinking cloud is far more likely to swing the fight in your favour then a heightened suggestion (and again, careful spell amps these up considerably more, but does very little for damage dealing).

you *can* build a sorcerer to do decent CC... but you're gonna eat up your spells known really fast trying to cover multiple status conditions and saves, and your metamagic choices won't support damage very well at all if you do (until you finally get your third metamagic). and if you go CC and damage (which you won't be able to do at all reasonably until high levels, and even then your limited spell selection will keep your CC from being as good as you might want), you won't have any spells known left for utility or defence to keep you alive so that you can actually keep castin.

First off, sorcerer doesn't need spells to keep him alive. He is way less fragile than a wizard. Actually has an armor class without resorting to spells, more HP, and at will flying eventually. At least, dragon is (and wild is a different story on many levels). So if the wizard is dropping spells there, sorcerer has a savings.

Second, you vastly overestimate how many spells you need to do CC. You can't target every save, but no one can. Wizard can't because most don't exist, or have borderline useless effects. You've yet to mention anything that didn't target dex, wis, or con, and even dex...

Which brings me to my third point, a lot of the spells you mentioned are not ones I'd ever use on any character. Web for example is not something I'd spend resources or a turn on. Useless against anything not on the ground, targets strength and dexterity so never last any length of time against the majority of monsters, only restrains the enemy which is an awful ability if they have any ranged actions, can't even hurt them as your own team runs the risk of getting trapped. If they have any sort of fire or fire starting tool they are a free item interaction away from getting out as well.

Yous see, if a CC condition isn't worth a turn, such as web, I would use heighten to inflict an actual debilitating condition. Why bother targeting a weak save when the effect isn't worth it?

This is part of the problem with "targeting multiple saves".... there aren't many effects worth spending a turn and spell slot on that don't target wis or con. The majority are wisdom. Even dex is normally damage, the few CC effects are generally web levels of "is this really worth a turn?". They restrain or knock it prone. That's really all dexterity saves do. Even battlemasters often have better things to do then burn resources to knock people prone, so I have trouble thinking it's worth anything more than a level 1 spell slot. I can't even find any str, int, or cha CC spells looking through wizard's list. Phantasmal force, but that's very dicey. An illusion of a wall might stop an enemy, or he might try to bash it down finding himself falling through it. Very DM dependent.

I'd rather be able to force through powerful effects than rely on weak ones. Honestly, if my choice is web or just toss damage spells... yeah I'll toss damage. Being able to actually force through the good wis and con targeting spells is far better than being able to keep a handful of mediocre spells you never want to be forced to use on your list.

[SharkForce]

web applies the restrained condition. this applies disadvantage on their attack rolls, gives advantage to attacks against them, and gives disadvantage to dex checks. and the strength check to break free is a strength check (not a strength save) and costs an action to even attempt. so every creature that wants to break out, i just stole away their action for this turn so that they could have probably a ~50/50 chance of escape or less (assuming spellcasting attribute + proficiency stays roughly as good as monster attack attribute).

or, if they choose not to make that check, i get to make ranged attacks at advantage (the rogue says hi) while they make ranged attacks (if they have them) at disadvantage, and for many monsters those ranged attacks will be less effective than their melee attacks. or, if i was a proper CC-based sorcerer, i could have applied careful spell and my party can march in and melee them down freely, because careful spell does not have a single-target or single-save limitation like heighten does. but then i've just taken a massive hit to my burst damage by missing out on either quicken or twin if i take that metamagic (until higher levels, that is).

using fire to get out is a valid strategy, but plenty of monsters don't have lit fires on their person.

dragon flight doesn't come online until level 14, dragon scales are worth a whopping level 1 spell slot per day, no more. and those same ranged attacks you seemed so certain the monsters would have when they were in the web? they work totally fine against a flying sorcerer too. better than they would have while the monster was webbed, in fact.

as to int and cha saves, int saves are a bit sparse and are actually one of the few areas where twin does legitimately help (twin phantasmal force being probably the best choice). cha, however, has banishment (possibly others, i'm not doing a search of the entire spell list at the moment).

of course, as time goes on, more spells will continue to be released. expect that to change.

[silveralen]

web applies the restrained condition. this applies disadvantage on their attack rolls, gives advantage to attacks against them, and gives disadvantage to dex checks. and the strength check to break free is a strength check (not a strength save) and costs an action to even attempt. so every creature that wants to break out, i just stole away their action for this turn so that they could have probably a ~50/50 chance of escape or less (assuming spellcasting attribute + proficiency stays roughly as good as monster attack attribute).

or, if they choose not to make that check, i get to make ranged attacks at advantage (the rogue says hi) while they make ranged attacks (if they have them) at disadvantage, and for many monsters those ranged attacks will be less effective than their melee attacks. or, if i was a proper CC-based sorcerer, i could have applied careful spell and my party can march in and melee them down freely, because careful spell does not have a single-target or single-save limitation like heighten does. but then i've just taken a massive hit to my burst damage by missing out on either quicken or twin if i take that metamagic (until higher levels, that is).

using fire to get out is a valid strategy, but plenty of monsters don't have lit fires on their person.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to have to disagree with it overall. Too many ways to bypass it as restrained is a mediocre situation (any teleport, creature starts in the air, fire, any sort of spellcaster just uses non attack roll spells, etc). It hampers your own parties ability to hurt the enemy as often as it helps (no tossing fire damage in there, no meleeing enemies except on the edge, etc). It just... seems very mediocre to me compared to other options. I guess it has the advantage of still retaining some usage at high levels, but idk.

However, even if I accept that is a useful spell... it doesn't change much because every single dex CC spell is either restrained or prone. That's literally all they do. So you aren't getting multiple spells that target dex, as they will be redundant. Even constitution saves suffer from this issue currently, the majority are very similar in effect.

Also, it is interesting careful actually works on spells like web or stinking cloud. That actually gives CC sorcerer an advantage his wizard counterpart lacks (sculpt spell is damage only I think, nothing like it in the other archetypes). You have convinced me it is worth taking over twin initially (probably wait till lvl 10 for twin, start with heighten and careful, both of which benefit damage and debuffing it seems).


as to int and cha saves, int saves are a bit sparse and are actually one of the few areas where twin does legitimately help (twin phantasmal force being probably the best choice). cha, however, has banishment (possibly others, i'm not doing a search of the entire spell list at the moment).

No, just banishment. I literally took the time to look through it, I may have missed one or two others but... that's really it. Feeblemind and phantasmal force for int, banishment for cha. None of which are the most amazing of spells given their level. Banishment isn't awful, but unless you are dealing with an extra-planar creature you can get the same effect at a lower level. Feeblemind is also nice, but a bit hit or miss for a lvl 8 slot (also not on sorcs list regardless).


of course, as time goes on, more spells will continue to be released. expect that to change.

Then the wizard advantage of picking spells to target saves might, in the future, outweigh being able to use the effect you want and improve your DC like sorcerer can. Currently I prefer the latter.

[SharkForce]

you're just now noticing careful spell? i've pointed it out several times now. sucks royally for damage spells. amazing for non-discriminatory CC.

but your very limited spells known and metamagic options available mean that if you take the spells and metamagic feats for CC, you won't have great damage (you can get better-than-typical-caster damage, but not great, and even that kinda relies on your second metamagic being good for burst damage rather than one that takes advantage of your CC spells). and if you take the spells and metamagic feats for damage, you won't have the ones that make you great at (certain forms of) CC.

as to teleports, far more creatures don't have them than do.

as to flying creatures, first of all it isn't useless... much less effective, yes. useless, no (restraining flying creatures for a turn - note that the spell ends at the start of your *next* turn, not on your current turn - can, in certain situations, make them fall).

secondly, that depends greatly on terrain, not whether the creature flies; in an open area, flight will make your life miserable. in a forest where flying creatures must come down below the canopy to attack you, it works just fine, whether you're flying or not.

as to dex spells only inflicting restrained status, wall of force and forcecage (which sorcerers never get) say hi.

also, banishing is valuable because against certain enemies, hold person (or monster) won't work, but not many creatures are immune to being banished.

and this still doesn't leave much for defence or utility options.

(also, phantasmal force is better than it looks, too; int save to avoid being effected, investigation check (not a save) plus an action to get out once it works on you (so most creatures will have a very low chance, *if* they think to even try), and they can't reveal it to be anything other than illusion by other means... they will rationalize whatever odd thing happens, or believe that it didn't happen, until they successfully make the investigation check. meanwhile, if the illusion is something damaging (say, if you make it look like they got sucked through a gate to the plane of fire), they even take damage. not as awesome at low levels when your DC isn't high enough to make people reliably fail the initial int save, but it can really ruin someone's day... and as noted, is admittedly one of the few CC effects that it is worth it to twin, because there truthfully isn't a higher level better option, though there probably should be - the shadow magic illusion spells will likely provide some if they ever get updated).

[Symphony]

as to dex spells only inflicting restrained status, wall of force and forcecage (which sorcerers never get) say hi.

There's also Reverse Gravity, which doesn't apply an explicit condition, but still works as CC in certain situations.

[Flashy]

Doesn't Suggestion involve actually telling the target what to do out loud as the verbal component? That's how I interpreted it. They definitely have to be able to hear and understand you. So I'm not sure how Subtle Spell[I] is useful for it. [I]Subtle Spell might be useful for Friends and similar spells, though.

My interpretation of Subtle Suggestion is that you cast the spell portion of the suggestion silently even though you still have to speak the suggestion. So if you're standing in a crowded room having a conversation with someone no one else is going to realize that you just ensorceled that person because you weren't suddenly making arcane gestures or throwing around material components.

[silveralen]

you're just now noticing careful spell? i've pointed it out several times now. sucks royally for damage spells. amazing for non-discriminatory CC.

but your very limited spells known and metamagic options available mean that if you take the spells and metamagic feats for CC, you won't have great damage (you can get better-than-typical-caster damage, but not great, and even that kinda relies on your second metamagic being good for burst damage rather than one that takes advantage of your CC spells). and if you take the spells and metamagic feats for damage, you won't have the ones that make you great at (certain forms of) CC.

I came into the thread late and skimmed, I assumed it had similar language to sculpt spells till now.

Anyways, a lot of damage spells are redundant or outright trap options, especially for dragon sorcerers.

For example, after a dragon sorcerer of fire gets fireball, they aren't taking another damage spells until they get 6th level slots regardless. They simply don't benefit from them. You can argue wall of fire if you want, but even then meh. Chain lightning is worth taking, incendiary cloud and meteor storm are options but by that point you likely are ditching things like burning hands and scorcher from lower levels because they don't deal enough damage to impact fights at your level. You rarely every actually have more than a handful of damage spells being used, and by high levels metamagic is almost always a more productive use of the slot. Lvl 2 is better, but even things like scorcher get dropped, though web and suggestion stay fairly useful.


as to dex spells only inflicting restrained status, wall of force and forcecage (which sorcerers never get) say hi.

Those don't require dex saves. Or saves in general.


also, banishing is valuable because against certain enemies, hold person (or monster) won't work, but not many creatures are immune to being banished.

Hold person/monster also aren't particularly good spells I've come to realize. Mass suggestion is better CC imo, the save every turn bit vs continuous effect is a huge gap in power.


and this still doesn't leave much for defence or utility options.

Of course it doesn't. If sorcerer could take every single possible needed spell he would be a copy of wizard, not a unique class. Possibly an OP copy. You pick areas to focus on (utility being a bad choice since it requires buckets of spells, though something like enhance attribute might be a decent way to round out spell selection). Defense in particular seems like a weird desire, what do most wizards bother having as defensive spells in this era of concentration beyond a simple mage armor?

Just for the sake of argument, let me show you what I might consider a lvl 17 sorcerer's spell list to look like:

Metamagic: Heighten, careful, empower, twin (this could be swapped out pretty easily if desired)

lvl 1:
lvl 2: Web, Scorching Ray, Enhance Attribute, Suggestion
lvl 3: Fireball, Stinking cloud, Hypnotic Pattern
lvl 4: Banishment, Greater Invisibility
lvl 5: Wall of stone
lvl 6: Globe of Invulnerability, Mass suggestion
lvl 7: Fire Storm
lvl 8: Earthquake
lvl 9: Wish

Is it perfect? Nope, you have to make tough calls. But that's part of the fun. It isn't ineffective at CC or damage, it has really everything you want outside meteor swarm and maybe dominate monster, which never struck me as the sort of thing I'd spend an 8th level slot on (same with meteor swarm at 9th really). It can hit wis, cha, con, and dex saves. It has pretty much all the damage spells a dragon sorcerer wants (as in, the ones that can actually beat fireball's damage).

Now, what does this sorcerer do well? He can put down about the same damage as an evocation wizard (especially burning lvl 1 spells for empower). He can offer better CC than the evocation wizard thanks to careful spell +web, stinking cloud, hypnotic pattern, or earthquake and better single target disables thanks to heighten+banishment, or heighten+any of the multi target CC with one guy you desperately want to lock down, plus things like wall of stone and mass suggestion the wizard could use. He also has some utility (enhance attribute, suggestion, mass suggestion, wall of stone, greater invisibility, and obvs wish), and twin greater invisibility is actually one of the better buffs wizard or sorcerer has access to.

It lacks the raw utility of wizard, and I've actually tried to avoid grabbing utility ritual spells as literally any other caster is a better choice for those. He also suffers from lacking some spells wizard has access to, primarily forecage or flaming sphere which would replace wall of stone and scorching ray in a heartbeat if on sorcerer's list. It is more of an issue than spell known imo, a couple of spells are up there just because nothing else seemed to actually be that helpful.

[SharkForce]

partly the lack of interesting other choices is due to not getting the full sorcerer/wizard list for no apparent reason.

at any rate, spells that you could benefit greatly from:

you have *one* type of damage. presumably your cantrips will have some variety, i would hope, but your cantrips are not going to provide meaningful value in a really tough fight as a nuker.

as such, i would recommend adding some (potentially as few as one) of:

chromatic orb (choose your damage type), magic missile (force is uncommonly resisted and it always hits), shatter (thunder is less commonly resisted, this hits an area, and sometimes breaking stuff can be useful), sunbeam (radiant damage is an uncommon resistance, it also blinds making it a minor form of CC, and you can use a quickened spell and fire a sunbeam in the same round), meteor swarm (yeah, it's your level 9 slot, and usually you won't want to use it... but the ridiculous range and AOE make it uniquely useful in situations where no other spell will do. that said, i'd drop firestorm in a heartbeat, so this could take it's place in the known list).

for defensive purposes:

feather fall (note that it can target other people - or objects - also), shield (this is one of the defensive spells that wizards use in this age of concentration, since you asked), mirror image (another no-concentration powerful defensive buff), counterspell, haste would be nice on some level (i've often said i don't think buffs are generally worth it... and i still think that... but if spells weren't so tight, i'd say haste is nice to have purely because of the buffing spells, it is better than most, and it makes for a good emergency rakshasa plan... though i agree that in general, if i could only choose one, i'd rather have greater invisibility).

for utility:

misty step (this is also great for defence actually), dispel magic (never leave home without it), fly (you can fly, your party can't. unless your strength is high enough to carry them all, your ability to fly adds relatively little utility to the party), polymorph (also an excellent damage source when you first get it... if you can turn the party's melee characters into giant apes, or mammoths, or similar, you're probably buffing their damage, providing a large HP buffer, getting some potential CC, and actually getting more out of your slot than you probably could have without turning your party members into CR ~7 creatures), creation.

for CC:

blindness/deafness (no concentration, otherwise it wouldn't even make the list tbh), phantasmal force (as noted, it's one of the rare int-based CC spells, and while it sucks that it is single target, when you really need int-based CC, your options are this and feeblemind... i know which one i'd rather use), fear (for when they can't run away, oddly enough), confusion (for when they can run away), eyebite (for sorcerers with quicken, note that using the gaze attack is not casting a spell, so you can quicken another spell and use your eyebite in the same round). hold person and hold monster are not nearly as bad as you suggest either... or at least, not when you have your full save DC built up. against enemies with weak wisdom saves, the spells can last a lot longer than a paralyzed monster should while standing helplessly in range of your party)

while it doesn't really fit clearly into any of the above categories, i would also add animate objects. it isn't much, but it's the closest thing to a summon you get other than finger of death.

and my list would be longer, if sorcerers actually had the wizard list to choose from instead of having no access to some of the most important debuff/CC spells, which really hurts their ability to control.

would i reasonably expect every last one of those to fit onto a sorcerer? of course not. but an extra 10 choices wouldn't be nearly enough to cover what i'd *want* to have. it would at least allow for better coverage though. having the wizard's spell list would also help greatly, of course... as i noted earlier, sorcerer has no access to many of the best spells, especially including some of the spells that would help compensate for their limited spell selection and make it more bearable.

as to those metamagic choices, your burst damage is gonna suffer quite a bit from not having quicken, suggestion is still only particularly compelling with subtle spell (it's less bad than nothing when it comes to CC, but there are better options), and heighten only works well with 2 of your spells (and one of those is suggestion, so not exactly ideal).

(on a side note, could've swore wall of force allowed a save just like all the other wall spells... note to self: even stronger than previously thought. i must've been thinking of otiluke's resilient sphere, which does allow a save, but is most likely supposed to only hit a single target no matter what).

[silveralen]

partly the lack of interesting other choices is due to not getting the full sorcerer/wizard list for no apparent reason.

at any rate, spells that you could benefit greatly from:

you have *one* type of damage. presumably your cantrips will have some variety, i would hope, but your cantrips are not going to provide meaningful value in a really tough fight as a nuker.

as such, i would recommend adding some (potentially as few as one) of:

chromatic orb (choose your damage type), magic missile (force is uncommonly resisted and it always hits), shatter (thunder is less commonly resisted, this hits an area, and sometimes breaking stuff can be useful), sunbeam (radiant damage is an uncommon resistance, it also blinds making it a minor form of CC, and you can use a quickened spell and fire a sunbeam in the same round), meteor swarm (yeah, it's your level 9 slot, and usually you won't want to use it... but the ridiculous range and AOE make it uniquely useful in situations where no other spell will do. that said, i'd drop firestorm in a heartbeat, so this could take it's place in the known list).

The main reason I stuck with only fire is that, if a target is immune to fire (I'm assuming elemental adept so resitance is a non issue) you have two options

1. Subpar damage from spells you are casting at baseline

2. CC spells that you are actually skilled at using.

The fact that most of the enemies that are immune to fire are extra planar and thus the best possible targets for banishment also helped seal the deal.

Sunburst might be worth it though. Disintegrate is another possible choice.


for defensive purposes:

feather fall (note that it can target other people - or objects - also), shield (this is one of the defensive spells that wizards use in this age of concentration, since you asked), mirror image (another no-concentration powerful defensive buff), counterspell, haste would be nice on some level (i've often said i don't think buffs are generally worth it... and i still think that... but if spells weren't so tight, i'd say haste is nice to have purely because of the buffing spells, it is better than most, and it makes for a good emergency rakshasa plan... though i agree that in general, if i could only choose one, i'd rather have greater invisibility).

Falling damage is so trivial by high levels I honestly don't think its worth bothering with feather fall, I might have had it on the list at lower levels but probably not.

Shield... eh. I can see a case for it. Not really a spell I'd use heavily, I'd much rather turn those first level slots into sorcerer points to fuel careful spells.

Mirror image is a possibility, but I just don't feel it's particularly needed. I'm just not going to devote a ton of resources to defense on this character, it's far better to disable enemies than to try and boost my defenses. I mean, if I spend my first turn of combat with mirror image, I'm leaving enemies without CC and at full health, that doesn't benefit me or my party long term, and with 1 min duration it needs to be used in combat.

Counterspell is nice, but I grabbed globe of invulnerability for high levels. If you face a lich, cast it as a 9th level spell. Otherwise, stick to standard CC to disable their casters before their spells start flying, when you actually have a good chance.


for utility:

misty step (this is also great for defence actually), dispel magic (never leave home without it), fly (you can fly, your party can't. unless your strength is high enough to carry them all, your ability to fly adds relatively little utility to the party), polymorph (also an excellent damage source when you first get it... if you can turn the party's melee characters into giant apes, or mammoths, or similar, you're probably buffing their damage, providing a large HP buffer, getting some potential CC, and actually getting more out of your slot than you probably could have without turning your party members into CR ~7 creatures), creation.

Most of these are good choices, but honestly this isn't the focus of the character. Polymorph is probably the one I'd consider for high levels since it gives a decent range of utility, from burrowing to flying to swimming. But even that's the sort of thing that is really not part of this character's role. The handful of utility I grabbed was mainly stuff that did double duty as CC or widely applicable in usage. Misty step is probably a better defensive option than the stuff mentioned above imo, so it also is an option.


for CC:

blindness/deafness (no concentration, otherwise it wouldn't even make the list tbh), phantasmal force (as noted, it's one of the rare int-based CC spells, and while it sucks that it is single target, when you really need int-based CC, your options are this and feeblemind... i know which one i'd rather use), fear (for when they can't run away, oddly enough), confusion (for when they can run away), eyebite (for sorcerers with quicken, note that using the gaze attack is not casting a spell, so you can quicken another spell and use your eyebite in the same round). hold person and hold monster are not nearly as bad as you suggest either... or at least, not when you have your full save DC built up. against enemies with weak wisdom saves, the spells can last a lot longer than a paralyzed monster should while standing helplessly in range of your party)

Eyebite and blindness/deafness look handy, eye bite doesn't really have the punch I'm looking for in a level 6 spell but it isn't bad, while blindness/deafness is a fairly solid choice due to the lack of concentration.

Again, the idea of needing something to target int and only int is my issue. Beyond the fact that realizing a creature has low int but high cha and wis seems really hard in game (that's the sort of detail hard to pick up in actual play without looking at a stat block), it's still mainly single target with a mediocre effect. I'd rather rely on heighten personally, if that situation did appear where all other saves were covered.

For the rest, why would I use those spells over hypnotic pattern? I guess not being a charm spell is handy, I'm still not a fan of the hold spells I think they are over costed by level, fear is almost never better than hypnotic pattern. Hold monster or confusion would be the choice I guess, not a fan of either but I'd probably grab hold monster.


while it doesn't really fit clearly into any of the above categories, i would also add animate objects. it isn't much, but it's the closest thing to a summon you get other than finger of death.

and my list would be longer, if sorcerers actually had the wizard list to choose from instead of having no access to some of the most important debuff/CC spells, which really hurts their ability to control.

would i reasonably expect every last one of those to fit onto a sorcerer? of course not. but an extra 10 choices wouldn't be nearly enough to cover what i'd *want* to have. it would at least allow for better coverage though. having the wizard's spell list would also help greatly, of course... as i noted earlier, sorcerer has no access to many of the best spells, especially including some of the spells that would help compensate for their limited spell selection and make it more bearable.

It comes down to wanting to play a wizard imo. You want to be able to do a bit of everything, be a utility caster who can do a bit of everything. Which isn't sorcerer. Sorcerer is much more focused. In the same way playing a warlock tends to mean you spend much of your time with cantrips and invocations. They play differently than a wizard, you need to realize that you aren't going to be able to damage, buff, debuff, have strong personal defense and utility. You have to focus on a subset of abilities as best fits your character.

Which is fine. Sorcerer has actual drawbacks. That's good. If, upon playing sorcerer, nothing made you question your choice it'd mean it was too good. There are pros and cons to both, which is where it should be. Too many additional spells causes issues with that. I think an extra 10 is a hugely overblown amount, way too much. 5? Maybe reasonable, if it's 5 extra off a restricted list of options (as one poster mentioned) that's probably acceptable. But a flat additional 10 with an expanded spell list is overmuch.

Because, at 25 spells, you aren't making real sacrifices. You got everything that'll matter for 95% of the game. Your limited spells known ceases to be any sort of a downside, your only real issue is missing a couple of good spells from your list and no rituals. Which isn't really a fair trade off for what sorcerer brings to the table imo.


as to those metamagic choices, your burst damage is gonna suffer quite a bit from not having quicken, suggestion is still only particularly compelling with subtle spell (it's less bad than nothing when it comes to CC, but there are better options), and heighten only works well with 2 of your spells (and one of those is suggestion, so not exactly ideal).

Heighten is better than you might think if you face enemies with varying saves or varying levels of strength. Afterall, 3 enemies with weak wisdom saves and 3 with weak con saves, something is getting through. Might as well try to pick off one of the side that's got a decent chance to save. Similarly, one strong enemy backed up by weaker minions could benefit. Or if you are facing a single strong enemy and want a powerful CC effect regardless.

Quicken is 2 sorcerery points for a potential 23 damage by lvl 17. It isn't awful, but it isn't what I'd call an amazing increase to burst damage. If this was a warlock MC sure I'll take it for the extra 42 damage in a round with potential knockback. But straight sorcerer? It really doesn't justify the cost imo. It's great for theoretical maximized damaged discussions, but, much like assassin, is less useful in practice.

Suggestion... I mean I don't see why? People tend to talk about suggesting enemies into becoming their bodyguards, which is questionable but an example of why the spell has a lot of potential scope, and even socially it at least has a chance of not blowing up in your face unlike most charm spells. It depends a lot on the DM in question, as suggestion is a pretty open spell. At some tables replacing it with hold monster might be a better call (I'd keep mass suggestion myself). It really depends.

[SharkForce]

the reason suggestion only appeals with subtle spell is that, being single target, you can only have it work on one person... and I'm operating under the assumption that the spell basically includes a "the target doesn't realize you just cast a spell on them" unwritten clause.

and since it isn't great for CC, that basically leaves the social aspect... but how often are you going to be alone with someone powerful enough that suggestion will be worthwhile, without having multiple guards or servants present?

mass suggestion is fine. it hits a bunch of people, so if you pick your group well, the majority can easily be the ones that don't notice you casting the spell. regular suggestion? not worth a spell known on a sorcerer unless you have subtle spell.

sunbeam (not burst) is amazing on a sorcerer with quicken. it blinds enemies, deals respectable AOE damage each turn, and can be used in the same turn you quicken a spell. for anyone else, it's a pretty decent choice. for sorcerer, it's excellent.

as to +23 damage being small (though I'm not sure how you came to +23 damage; 4d10 + 5 is 27 damage average if it hits), that's about 50% of high-end DPR build damage (if it hits, which won't always be the case). it isn't quite an action surge, but you can do it round after round pretty easily.

and again, I'm not suggesting the sorcerer should be able to access all of those spells. I'm merely pointing out that adding 10 spells still leaves you with a lot more spells you'd want, and a lot of scenarios not fully covered. I haven't even gone into the elemental evil book either, I seem to recall a few interesting ones there.

edit: oh, and hypnotic pattern only lasts indefinitely if the other side doesn't spend the actions to wake people up. fear lasts guaranteed until the enemy can no longer see you (which in the right situation, means they never get another save at all) and confusion just doesn't have conditions at all, though they get a save every round.

[silveralen]

the reason suggestion only appeals with subtle spell is that, being single target, you can only have it work on one person... and I'm operating under the assumption that the spell basically includes a "the target doesn't realize you just cast a spell on them" unwritten clause.

and since it isn't great for CC, that basically leaves the social aspect... but how often are you going to be alone with someone powerful enough that suggestion will be worthwhile, without having multiple guards or servants present?

Reasonable enough, though that basically means suggestion is useless for most other classes.


mass suggestion is fine. it hits a bunch of people, so if you pick your group well, the majority can easily be the ones that don't notice you casting the spell. regular suggestion? not worth a spell known on a sorcerer unless you have subtle spell.

sunbeam (not burst) is amazing on a sorcerer with quicken. it blinds enemies, deals respectable AOE damage each turn, and can be used in the same turn you quicken a spell. for anyone else, it's a pretty decent choice. for sorcerer, it's excellent.

as to +23 damage being small (though I'm not sure how you came to +23 damage; 4d10 + 5 is 27 damage average if it hits), that's about 50% of high-end DPR build damage (if it hits, which won't always be the case). it isn't quite an action surge, but you can do it round after round pretty easily.

Thought firebolt was 4d8+5.

It isn't bad by any stretch, it just burns through resources. Being able to empower two fireballs offers more damage for example, and if you use lots of CC that needs careful you are already stretching yourself.

I'm AFB, is sunbeam the lvl 8 spell or a different one I missed?


and again, I'm not suggesting the sorcerer should be able to access all of those spells. I'm merely pointing out that adding 10 spells still leaves you with a lot more spells you'd want, and a lot of scenarios not fully covered. I haven't even gone into the elemental evil book either, I seem to recall a few interesting ones there.

I'm of the opinion that 10 additional spells basically removes that as a balancing factor. The difference between 15 and 25 spells is large. The difference between 25 and 40 isn't as big. At a certain point, and I think 25 is about it, you aren't having to make any difficult choices. Which I think is what people want, but that rather defeats the point as this is most assuredly one of the weaknesses that keeps sorcerer balanced.

Having fewer spells is only a disadvantage if you actually find yourself wanting more spells. If you only find yourself missing situational spells once in a blue moon, it probably isn't a real downside.

I think 5 spells off a prechosen list is balanced, such as someone suggested above, gives sorcerer a bit more room while still forcing him to make tough calls. I think a flat 10 spells is too much.

[Wartex1]

Suggestion doesn't take one of the precious 15 spell slots from other classes though.

[silveralen]

Suggestion doesn't take one of the precious 15 spell slots from other classes though.

So? If it actually makes an impact semi often it's worth happening. If it's mediocre CC and almost never useful as a utility spell, having it on their list won't effect the game more than once in a blue moon.

Trying to cover every situation is not where the class shines nor what it is meant to do well. Other casters do that far better. Play to your strengths, don't try to be the same as other casters.

If you really want to be a subtle spell master, go for it. Find other spells that benefit from it and take them. But trying to justify 1/4 metamagic because it is useful for 1/15 spells is the absolute worst way to play the class, you will struggle because you aren't trying to focus on a handful of niches you are playing the sorcerer like a wizard or bard, trying to cover every niche. That's doomed to fail as it should be.

If a spell is niche and not widely applicable of often usable, it shouldn't be on a sorcerer's list. That's what you trade away for the benefits of metamagic. You want spells that cover more situations and will make an impact often. You can get away with a couple niche choices, but the majority should be widely applicable.

[SharkForce]

So? If it actually makes an impact semi often it's worth happening. If it's mediocre CC and almost never useful as a utility spell, having it on their list won't effect the game more than once in a blue moon.

Trying to cover every situation is not where the class shines nor what it is meant to do well. Other casters do that far better. Play to your strengths, don't try to be the same as other casters.

If you really want to be a subtle spell master, go for it. Find other spells that benefit from it and take them. But trying to justify 1/4 metamagic because it is useful for 1/15 spells is the absolute worst way to play the class, you will struggle because you aren't trying to focus on a handful of niches you are playing the sorcerer like a wizard or bard, trying to cover every niche. That's doomed to fail as it should be.

If a spell is niche and not widely applicable of often usable, it shouldn't be on a sorcerer's list. That's what you trade away for the benefits of metamagic. You want spells that cover more situations and will make an impact often. You can get away with a couple niche choices, but the majority should be widely applicable.

I would point out once again that heighten is a pretty lousy choice for all except maybe 3 of the spells you chose (and one of those is suggestion).

simply put, situational spells are always going to be fine for other classes that can trade their spells around. wizard will *always* have that benefit over sorcerer, and it is a large part of what made wizard a tier higher than sorcerer back when wizards didn't have spontaneous casting and just as many spell slots as a sorcerer.

seriously, think about it. wizards were considered to be top-tier. sorcerers were at best tier 2. the wizard has since been relatively buffed (gained spontaneous casting), and the sorcerer relatively nerfed (lost extra spell slots, spell list drastically reduced. also a very very minor nerf in weapon proficiencies, but practically speaking cantrips make that largely a moot point). the difference in power was massive before. do you really think giving sorcerers as many spells known over 20 levels as the prepared casters can have known at one time (plus rituals, plus class abilities that are sometimes like spells themselves) is going to break anything? particularly when nearly half of them are selected as a themed bundle rather than freely chosen from all different levels of the entire spell list?

in their article about modifying classes, WotC didn't even acknowledge that sorcerers have metamagic at all, let alone suggest that it was something to protect as the sorcerer's niche thing. how long do you think it's gonna be before there's a wizard archetype that gets metamagic on the table (probably called incantrix, if I had to make a guess) that can combine the wizard spell list with metamagic?

(also, since you asked, sunbeam is a level 6 spell. about the only complaint I could make about it is that it does not scale meaningfully from being placed in a higher level spell slot).

as to subtle spell, its a great choice for suggestion in particular, but hardly limited to only that. it is a great choice for any stealth build that wants to cast spells from hiding, and it can be useful with any number of spells in the right circumstance because it lets you ignore silence, escape when tied up and gagged, cast spells while underwater, cast spells while your hands are restrained or holding onto a rope/cliff face/wall, etc. it isn't a niche pick that you take for suggestion. it's a pick that you take as a sort of emergency "get out of jail free" card (sometimes literally), which also happens to make suggestion a really good spell (again, provided you've got some stealthiness in you; you will most likely need to palm the material components and use them discretely). or, in other words, you don't take subtle spell because you took suggestion, you take suggestion because you took subtle spell. subtle spell is a very defensive choice, in that it generally won't make you stronger so much as it will prevent you from getting weaker in a large variety of situations that normally would be very hard for a caster to deal with.

[silveralen]

I would point out once again that heighten is a pretty lousy choice for all except maybe 3 of the spells you chose (and one of those is suggestion).

simply put, situational spells are always going to be fine for other classes that can trade their spells around. wizard will *always* have that benefit over sorcerer, and it is a large part of what made wizard a tier higher than sorcerer back when wizards didn't have spontaneous casting and just as many spell slots as a sorcerer.

seriously, think about it. wizards were considered to be top-tier. sorcerers were at best tier 2. the wizard has since been relatively buffed (gained spontaneous casting), and the sorcerer relatively nerfed (lost extra spell slots, spell list drastically reduced. also a very very minor nerf in weapon proficiencies, but practically speaking cantrips make that largely a moot point). the difference in power was massive before. do you really think giving sorcerers as many spells known over 20 levels as the prepared casters can have known at one time (plus rituals, plus class abilities that are sometimes like spells themselves) is going to break anything? particularly when nearly half of them are selected as a themed bundle rather than freely chosen from all different levels of the entire spell list?

I noticed you failed to mention wizard losing metamagic or metamagic becoming sorcerer exclusive in your buffed/vs nerfed layout. Given that's a big change that helps sorcerer, yeah I think they ended up fine.

The difference between sorcerer and wizard in tier was "how many ways can you break the game". Power wasn't a factor since either could be gamebreaking, the only thing that changed was versatility. But that's not true. Sorcerer can be more powerful thanks to metamagic, at least in a handful of ways. Wizard can be powerful in certain areas as well, but not as many as an individual sorcerer can. If you want to make the case that wizard shouldn't be quite on par with sorcerer even in the area wizard specializes in you can make that case and I might listen, but the tradeoff is quantity for quality, fewer areas of focus for more strength within them. Which again is why sorcerer should not be measured by his utility, as in utility quantity is quality. Sorcerer won't excell there and shouldn't over focus on that.

Sorcerer should always feel like he lacks spells known. If he ever doesn't feel like he needs just one more slot, or rarely feels like he could have used a certain spell he had to pass on, sorcerer isn't balanced.


in their article about modifying classes, WotC didn't even acknowledge that sorcerers have metamagic at all, let alone suggest that it was something to protect as the sorcerer's niche thing. how long do you think it's gonna be before there's a wizard archetype that gets metamagic on the table (probably called incantrix, if I had to make a guess) that can combine the wizard spell list with metamagic?

Speculation at best, if that happens then we can talk about it.


as to subtle spell, its a great choice for suggestion in particular, but hardly limited to only that. it is a great choice for any stealth build that wants to cast spells from hiding, and it can be useful with any number of spells in the right circumstance because it lets you ignore silence, escape when tied up and gagged, cast spells while underwater, cast spells while your hands are restrained or holding onto a rope/cliff face/wall, etc. it isn't a niche pick that you take for suggestion. it's a pick that you take as a sort of emergency "get out of jail free" card (sometimes literally), which also happens to make suggestion a really good spell (again, provided you've got some stealthiness in you; you will most likely need to palm the material components and use them discretely). or, in other words, you don't take subtle spell because you took suggestion, you take suggestion because you took subtle spell. subtle spell is a very defensive choice, in that it generally won't make you stronger so much as it will prevent you from getting weaker in a large variety of situations that normally would be very hard for a caster to deal with.

Hmm, well I could see taking it over twin given that pitch, though it's going to be one of those things that varies. I mean, if you are palming spell components, making spell gestures that aren't blindingly obvious is possible as well if you DM is feeling lenient. It does help you cast when tied up or your hands are full, so there is usage regardless, but how useful it is will vary a bit.

[SharkForce]

when it comes to casting spells, versatility is the name of the game. if I want a character that can do one thing reasonably well, and is not really any better in anything else than any other class, I can pick a class that can do so at-will.

and that's the problem. the sorcerer can be good at any one thing. they're not dramatically better in that one area than a wizard is likely to be (unless it's burst damage, but burst damage is the area where there really are tons of choices and most of it comes from the first 3 levels of sorcerer anyways). but they are dramatically worse in basically every other area than a wizard would be. and that's where the problem comes in.

they're a bit better at one thing (if they invest heavily in that one thing). and either no better or dramatically worse in anything else. 4 metamagics (2 of which are not available until halfway through the class or later) isn't enough to really be better by a large margin in 2 areas. if you take subtle instead of twin, there goes all of your burst, and you're no better in DPR than an evocation wizard, perhaps slightly better in CC, and dramatically worse in every other area. or, you can pick all the metamagic that makes you better in burst damage, and then you're going to be kinda "meh" at best in CC (or alternately, you won't have much in the way of spell selection for damage and you're only better at damage in certain limited situations which become increasingly rare as you gain levels).

and yes, wizards lost metamagic... but then, they also gained amazing class abilities that are roughly the equal to metamagic, if we're keeping score.

[archaeo]

snip

You're still just talking about what you expect, though, based on nothing except game design theory. A theory, by the way, that has always depended on a reading of the game whereby the more strategic options a given character has, the better that character is.

It's churlish of me to bring it up again, since the last time I brought numbers to the discussion I just screwed it all up. But it would be a huge relief to see anybody raise objections to or praise the Sorcerer based on actual play experience. It's all well and good to talk about the raw mechanics and how they stack up against each other, but it's pretty meaningless when 5e is a game about way more than stacks of numbers crashing into each other. Do Sorcerers feel distinct? Do players that choose them generally feel satisfied? Are players staying away from the class because it appears underpowered?

We don't know, mostly because this forum is really interested in working out mechanical balance rather than in-play balance. WotC probably has a far better idea, since one imagines they follow up their general surveys with research and playtesting. I'm inclined to trust WotC's direction on this, and you should too, honestly, since the new Sorcerers are all designed to trade a bit of raw power/durability/whatever Wild Mage has for more versatility.

[SharkForce]

they aren't exactly trading a huge amount of power. comparing favoured soul to dragon, it still gets wings, can wear medium armour and use a shield which is probably better the vast majority of the time than dragon scales, gets an extra attack instead of bonus damage with spells (giving it lower cantrip burst, but extremely reliable sustained damage and possibly higher sustained damage if they use haste and have a good magic weapon), and get a small no-action-required self-heal when casting their bonus spells instead of a crappy fear/charm effect (fear costs the same as a fear spell but doesn't prevent them from acting, and charm isn't that great of an effect really). neither is great, but the favoured soul ability is free healing, which while not exactly huge in impact, has the advantage of costing neither actions nor sorcery points, unlike the draconic presence.

now, storm sorcerer isn't quite as easy to compare. they don't get armour at all, just a 10 foot bonus action flight when they cast a spell on their turn... honestly, i'm gonna give this one to dragon sorcerer. losing a bonus action is not something to storm sorcerer is likely gonna want to do, because that means not casting a quickened damage spell (and considering they get call lightning, which lets them deal damage with an action, that's a pretty big loss; no need for cantrip spam for them!).

heart of the storm is a bit of a trade off. storm sorcerers need to be in the middle of a scrap to get the most out of it, but don't get the armour to do so automatically. on the other hand, getting 1/2 level damage in a 10 foot radius (in your choice of two elements) is much more powerful when you can use it than draconic sorcerer's +cha damage. i definitely foresee storm sorcerers wanting to make use of defensive spells regularly, that's for sure. resistance to damage that doesn't cost sorcerery points is nice when it applies as well. a retaliation ability isn't amazing, imo. it's very likely to go off (as noted, your ideal position is to be in the middle of a scrap as far as offense is concerned, though of course there are substantial drawbacks in terms of keeping yourself alive; more practically, you'll stand just behind your front line and hit the enemy front line with no-save damage). as written, it may even prevent the melee attack that triggered it if you get the knockback (but probably doesn't). i'm gonna say that this is probably marginally better than the dragon fear, but only because it doesn't cost you resources or your action (i generally wouldn't want to use either ability most of the time, unless the DM has charm mean something more than it presently does). ironically, the draconic presence might actually be worth it for a storm sorcerer (the ability to charm everything nearby at the start of their turn would be really useful for a character that wants to sit in the middle of a grand melee but doesn't actually want to get attacked). that said, if you actually come across a scenario where draconic presence is good (note: in combat, it doesn't prevent enemies from attacking, so an actual fear spell is generally better and costs the same number of sorcery points), it is going to be legitimately quite good. and yes, i am comparing the storm 14 ability to the dragon 18 ability, mostly because it's easier to compare flight to flight, which is next. and wow, is the storm sorcerer flight ever better than the dragon version. better speed. the ability to make the entire party fly without using concentration. 1 hour duration for the party. very very strong. so much better. not even close.

so... by my accounting, neither sorcerer loses much, if anything, for their extra 9 or 10 spells, relative to the draconic sorcerer. it's a bit harder to compare to wild magic sorcerer, as there are fewer abilities in common, but i'm inclined to say it isn't a huge difference there either, since in general wild magic is considered to be fairly similar in power (albeit much higher in risk, especially at low levels when a fireball at the wrong time can TPK you).

[silveralen]

when it comes to casting spells, versatility is the name of the game. if I want a character that can do one thing reasonably well, and is not really any better in anything else than any other class, I can pick a class that can do so at-will.

and that's the problem. the sorcerer can be good at any one thing. they're not dramatically better in that one area than a wizard is likely to be (unless it's burst damage, but burst damage is the area where there really are tons of choices and most of it comes from the first 3 levels of sorcerer anyways). but they are dramatically worse in basically every other area than a wizard would be. and that's where the problem comes in.

they're a bit better at one thing (if they invest heavily in that one thing). and either no better or dramatically worse in anything else. 4 metamagics (2 of which are not available until halfway through the class or later) isn't enough to really be better by a large margin in 2 areas. if you take subtle instead of twin, there goes all of your burst, and you're no better in DPR than an evocation wizard, perhaps slightly better in CC, and dramatically worse in every other area. or, you can pick all the metamagic that makes you better in burst damage, and then you're going to be kinda "meh" at best in CC (or alternately, you won't have much in the way of spell selection for damage and you're only better at damage in certain limited situations which become increasingly rare as you gain levels).

and yes, wizards lost metamagic... but then, they also gained amazing class abilities that are roughly the equal to metamagic, if we're keeping score.

Well, until lvl 11 an evocation wizard is lagging behind a dragon sorcerer even without Metamagic.

Nor are they dramtically worse in every other area, mainly because there aren't many other areas and they can cover 1-2 to be only slightly worse.

Again, I cite the example I gave, with some hypothetical modifications due to a few spells being nifty but the metamagic and goals being the same.

1. Damage? Better or the same generally, depending on level, resources invested, etc.

2. CC? Better on sorcerer. (sorry forcecage once a day<being able to drop multiple CC effects without hitting the party). Plus sorcerer can target every save you'd ever bother to target as a wizard.

3. Buffing... wizard has more buffs but sorcerer is the only one who has buffs efficient enough to be worth an action. So this is probably a wash.

4. Utility? Wizard wins by a wide margin, his first win of that sort, though even here sorcerer brings a few things to the table (at will flight, enhance attribute) that wizard lacks.

5. Defense? Well... not a ton of defensive spells worth having. Greater invisibility twinned is probably a more productive usage than most, has mage armor protection as default, grab counterspell if you like for suggestion since it apparently isn't useful, and you are basically on par.

That's the thing, he isn't dramtically worse in most areas, he lags slightly in a few and is only dramtically worse in the one.

You also confuse what makes a good caster with what you like in a caster. Versatility is not an absolute measure of usefulness in a caster.

[SharkForce]

plenty of CC spells are selectively targeted. several others only go off once, so you only have to worry about targeting once.

others still provide plenty of benefit whether your party can go in it or not; web still lets you have ranged fights where you have a massive advantage (or costs your enemy their action to escape so that they can maybe have even fights), for example.

those spells don't become bad without careful spell. careful spell just adds a little bit more awesomeness into an already good spell.

[silveralen]

plenty of CC spells are selectively targeted. several others only go off once, so you only have to worry about targeting once.

others still provide plenty of benefit whether your party can go in it or not; web still lets you have ranged fights where you have a massive advantage (or costs your enemy their action to escape so that they can maybe have even fights), for example.

those spells don't become bad without careful spell. careful spell just adds a little bit more awesomeness into an already good spell.

Careful turns many of those spells (hypnotic pattern, web, stinking cloud) from mediocre to great. Clipping someone with a fireball isn't that bad, stunning a teammate is a much bigger deal.

[SharkForce]

the spells are already great. careful turns them just a little bit better. there are very strong ways to use those spells that do not require you fighting inside them while they're active.

[silveralen]

the spells are already great. careful turns them just a little bit better. there are very strong ways to use those spells that do not require you fighting inside them while they're active.

Those spells are decent. Not amazing, but solid. But if you can ignore teammates? Amazing. Because being able to cast web and restrain the targets your fighter is engaged with without risking him is a big boom, restraining a few archers or enemies near the back less so. Being able to cast stinking cloud and have it role over additional enemies later without having to place it so it avoids your teammates turns a good spell into a great one. Hypnotic pattern is suddenly great compared to hold spells. Etc.

Spells that can hit teammates with their negative effects typically give much more noticeable effects for their level (again, why hold person isn't worth a damn on sorcerer). Being able to ignore that at a small cost is a dramatic increase in power, to the point sorcerer is much better in this area. It's very different from damage spells, where a frontline teammate likely shrugs it off with ease.

Beyond which, you aren't adressing the point that his downsides in most areas aren't particularly great. The only area he struggles in compared to wizard is sheer out of combat utility, and even there he has useful contributions, ones that wizard might not be as equipped to assist with.

The big downside of sorcerer isn't being dramtically worse in most areas, just one with a bit of lag in a couple others. If you are dramtically worse in most areas you picked a bad spell list. Which does show sorcerer is a bit less forgiving, but nothing that awful.

[archaeo]

so... by my accounting, neither sorcerer loses much, if anything, for their extra 9 or 10 spells, relative to the draconic sorcerer.

It's pretty funny, how you ignored the entire thrust of my post w/r/t bringing some actual data to the table and proceeded to go on with the usual theorycrafting.

[SharkForce]

wait...

you think that being hit by hypnotic pattern is worse than being hit by hold person?

if hold person lands on you, everyone gets to autocrit you to death. hold person isn't crowd control that you throw on someone and ignore them (though with sufficient DC you almost can do that). hold person is crowd control that you throw on someone and then slaughter them while they're helpless. paralysis is a much worse thing to have happen to you than just not getting your action (not that losing your action is good, but at least if hypnotic pattern lands they're not gonna attack you, and your friends may be able to automatically unhypnotize you).

web is perfectly fine as is. you for sure have a caster (capable of ranged attacks) if you're using it. a rogue will be pretty much just as good at range as in melee. and, quite frankly, odds are good that you didn't want to be close to the melee if you can avoid it anyways. only pure melee builds will be seriously harmed by not going up next to them, and since it'll be the melee builds using their less effective options (with a bonus against the other guys) vs the other guys using their less effective options (with a penalty), it's still giving you a large advantage. alternately, with stinking cloud, they're probably all gonna run out of it anyways whether it's careful or not (unless you have them locked in place, at which point you've probably got advantage + all of your actions vs their disadvantage and only some of their actions... again, if that isn't enough to make you win the fight handily, your party has a problem, and it isn't the lack of careful spell).

plus, who says you're locking down the back line? drop it before everyone closes distance (or drop it just in front of your defensive line) and hit the front line if you prefer, and have everyone go around to hit the back line if that's what you want.

careful takes an already useful and strong spell, and makes it a bit better. it is nice. all else being equal, i'd rather have it than not; most of the time, i won't need to have webs that my allies can run around in, but it's nice to have the option when i do need it. but it isn't a necessity for the spell to be useful, it's just a nice thing to have that gives an extra function to the spell. sometimes it will literally add nothing at all (if i put web above head level and we're fighting giants, or if the party is immune to poison through various abilities, for example).

[Simian]

Kryx,
I did something similar to what you are talking about for the draconic bloodline, great minds think alike!

I did 2 spells every tier from 1-5 and I took from a pool of good vs evil and a pool based on element. I made an exception for Brass so that it wouldn't be 100% identical to Gold. The logic for choosing a wind spell is that they lair in the deserts. Also, for green I did some spells based on the fact that they lair in forests, poison spells are a bit rarer.

[Edit] I'm not sure if I made this clear but at each tier you would pick a good or evil spell and a spell associated with the element. So at Tier 1 a gold dragon would be Bless + Chromatic Orb (Fire) and a Green Dragon would be Bane + Chromatic Orb (Poison). For balancing purposes I didn't do too many direct damaging spells as their passive abilities combo with those and they will probably select those from their sorceror list. Though elemental bane combos well with direct damaging spells and is not normally available to sorcerors, it's a powerful addition to the class and might be too good, but without giving them boosts to their passives as well I think it balances well with stormborn. [Edit]

Draconic Bloodline Expanded Spells Known
Tier 1:
Good: Bless
Evil: Bane
Elements: Chromatic Orb*

Tier 2:
Good: Aid
Evil: Ray of Enfeeblement
Cold: Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm
Fire except Brass: Pyrotechnics
Acid: Maximillian’s Earthen Grasp
Lightning & Brass: Gust of Wind
Poison: Web

Tier 3:
Elements except Poison: Elemental Weapon*
Poison: Stinking Cloud
Good: Beacon of Hope
Evil: Bestow Curse

Tier 4:
Elements except Poison: Elemental Bane*
Poison: Grasping Vine
Good: Aura of Purity
Evil: Phantasmal Killer

Tier 5:
Elements except Poison: Conjure Elemental*
Poison: Cloudkill
Good: Greater Restoration
Evil: Dominate Person

*When casting this spell you do not get to select the type of element that it effects instead this is selected for you by the element associated with your dragon blood. If you get this spell as a spell known from another source you may then cast it normally.

[ChubbyRain]

i really really wanted to like the 5e sorcerer. but wizards made it really hard for me to. i liked the 3.x sorcerer conceptually. i liked the pathfinder sorcerer a lot. the 4e sorcerer sucked hardcore (but then, so did basically every other 4e "caster" class as far as i'm concerned... though frankly, sorcerer sucked more, mostly because it went in exactly the direction i least wanted it to go in).

giving them short-rest recovery of sorcery points would go a long ways towards restoring the 3.x sorcerer feel as well (few spells known, spontaneous casting, casts more often than others) as well. maybe to really emphasize the spontaneous casting they could use the spell point variant even if nobody else is.

I felt this way too until I played the sorcerer in Adventure League or whatever they are calling public play (I hear it called multitude of things). Twin Spell "Enlarge" is a complete game changer.

SP or spells (or both) could have been done better with short rests or a choice of lists (druid spell list sorcerer is amazing) but the current sorcerer (dragon) is really fun to play and doesn't fall behind in levels 1-6 so far (public play).

I think the metamagic should have been made better. Most MM are average to sub par options sadly.

Blue = Heighten, Quicken, Subtle (if in a place like Mulmaster), Twin

Black = Empower Spell, Subtle Spell (if not in a place like mulmaster)

Red = Careful Spell, Distance Spell, Extend Spell

I would love to see all MM be top tier choices. Perhaps make Careful Spell work like the wizard evoker ability, distance spell ignores cover or concealment, and let extend change a duration to 8 hours (may have 1 going at a time) with no concentration tag.

Subtle spell doesn't need to change, perhaps make it cost 0 SP but still not usable with other MM.

Maybe a class feature 1/Short Rest that let's you combine two MM for their original costs combined? Then later 2/short rest?


Edit

The sorcerer (especially dragon) is D&D 5e "simple" option in contrast to the wizard. However unlike the fighter you get to have options, change those options, and have mid to high level fantasy options once you hit level 8.

The Fighter could learn a few things from the sorcerer.

[silveralen]

wait...

you think that being hit by hypnotic pattern is worse than being hit by hold person?

if hold person lands on you, everyone gets to autocrit you to death. hold person isn't crowd control that you throw on someone and ignore them (though with sufficient DC you almost can do that). hold person is crowd control that you throw on someone and then slaughter them while they're helpless. paralysis is a much worse thing to have happen to you than just not getting your action (not that losing your action is good, but at least if hypnotic pattern lands they're not gonna attack you, and your friends may be able to automatically unhypnotize you).

The main issue with hold person is targeting limitations. You are burning a 4-5 level slot to disable as many people as hypnotic pattern, even assuming only 3-4 enemies. They must also be humanoid enemies. That's why the spell is gradually becoming less impressive for me. For a second level slot, hypnotic pattern gives far more oomph unless you happen to be facing a single scary humanoid target. Hold person is more useful on a sorcerer (twin spell), an enchanter (built in twin on enchantment spells) or a warlock (auto scales all spells so you don't have 2nd level slots eventually) than most, but it really doesn't seem that amazing stand alone. A fifth level spell slot to disable 3-4 enemies of a specific type, if they have a weak save and lack immunity to a condition, isn't really what I want from that slot level. Nor do I really want to disable one person with all the same caveats at 2nd level, not when I could be laying out a whole handful of enemies.

Sure, as a debuff paralysis is nice. But not really amazing. It's just advantage... plus a critical on melee hits. That's not awful, but that's hardly a damage increase worthy of a 2nd level slot considering how unlikely you are to desperately need that sort of damage boost on a single humanoid creature who will reliably fail the save for more than a turn. I mean... advantage isn't hard to get that's a first level spell slot at best. The damage boost is nice, but remember this same slot could've been used for a scorching ray from a dragon sorcerer, which averages out to a nice 36 damage. A rogue and smiting paladin together might benefit enough (an extra 6d6 and 4d8 would be 39) but honestly it the majority of situations using hold person to boost damage is not an optimal usage of the slot.

[ChubbyRain]

The main issue with hold person is targeting limitations. You are burning a 4-5 level slot to disable as many people as hypnotic pattern, even assuming only 3-4 enemies. They must also be humanoid enemies. That's why the spell is gradually becoming less impressive for me. For a second level slot, hypnotic pattern gives far more oomph unless you happen to be facing a single scary humanoid target. Hold person is more useful on a sorcerer (twin spell), an enchanter (built in twin on enchantment spells) or a warlock (auto scales all spells so you don't have 2nd level slots eventually) than most, but it really doesn't seem that amazing stand alone. A fifth level spell slot to disable 3-4 enemies of a specific type, if they have a weak save and lack immunity to a condition, isn't really what I want from that slot level. Nor do I really want to disable one person with all the same caveats at 2nd level, not when I could be laying out a whole handful of enemies.

Sure, as a debuff paralysis is nice. But not really amazing. It's just advantage... plus a critical on melee hits. That's not awful, but that's hardly a damage increase worthy of a 2nd level slot considering how unlikely you are to desperately need that sort of damage boost on a single humanoid creature who will reliably fail the save for more than a turn. I mean... advantage isn't hard to get that's a first level spell slot at best. The damage boost is nice, but remember this same slot could've been used for a scorching ray from a dragon sorcerer, which averages out to a nice 36 damage. A rogue and smiting paladin together might benefit enough (an extra 6d6 and 4d8 would be 39) but honestly it the majority of situations using hold person to boost damage is not an optimal usage of the slot.

I'm sorry but are you really saying paralyzation is anything short of fantastic?

That's just... That's just... I ... No. Paralyzation is perhaps the BEST debuff in the game (stunning too).

Almost everyone can crit in some fashion. The crit isn't just one person but 2 - 6 allies absolutely destroying one (or more) creature(s).

Then you have classes like rogue, paladin, and barbarians that absolutely smear creatures when they crit.

Hold Person is the best opening spell for a nova.

Heighten Spell Hold Person is just flat out mean.

[silveralen]

I'm sorry but are you really saying paralyzation is anything short of fantastic?

That's just... That's just... I ... No. Paralyzation is perhaps the BEST debuff in the game (stunning too).

Almost everyone can crit in some fashion. The crit isn't just one person but 2 - 6 allies absolutely destroying one (or more) creature(s).

Then you have classes like rogue, paladin, and barbarians that absolutely smear creatures when they crit.

Hold Person is the best opening spell for a nova.

Heighten Spell Hold Person is just flat out mean.

I mean.... you have a single humanoid target who needs criticals to die from 6 people focus firing it for one turn?

Let us realistically look at how much a paladin and rogue alone would normally do. A dueling longsword paladin with two lvl 1 smites would be 6d8+14 while a duel wielding roguerogue might be 6d6+5 (I'm assuming about lvl 8 and picked fighting styles for ease of calculation), That's 67 damage average. For a critical, that'd be 115. The majority of humanoid creatures are dead at that point. You also dealt 48 points of damage from your spell, which is good. That's a whole spell level higher than what scorching ray would manage.

That's assuming it fails the save (which yes, is a bit dicier than just missing one scorching ray out of three) and turns align so that they get those hits off before it frazzles. Because remember, if it has allies who hit you, concentration save could frazzle it before an ally, or both, gets a hit. If the enemy preempts the teammates, it may make the second save before they get a chance. Your teammates may not be in a position to act. This is all assuming you have an enemy that justifies this sort of focus.

The fact is it applying to only one enemy means you won't be getting that much extra damage unless the enemy is very spongy. The highest humanoid HP in the free monster manual is 67 for reference (haven't gone through the actual book yet, find function spoils me). If your DM has lots of of homebrewed high HP humanoid enemies with low wisdom saves, it's helpful. The thing is, I don't feel like most DM's, when creating a homebrewed big bad NPC, typically give them really low values for literally the most important saving throw in the game. It's a very situational tactic.

Paralyzing is good. Paralyzing humanoids? Mediocre. Paralyzing a single humanoid? Even more so.

[ChubbyRain]

I mean.... you have a single humanoid target who needs criticals to die from 6 people focus firing it for one turn?

Let us realistically look at how much a paladin and rogue alone would normally do. A dueling longsword paladin with two lvl 1 smites would be 6d8+14 while a duel wielding roguerogue might be 6d6+5 (I'm assuming about lvl 8 and picked fighting styles for ease of calculation), That's 67 damage average. For a critical, that'd be 115. The majority of humanoid creatures are dead at that point. You also dealt 48 points of damage from your spell, which is good. That's a whole spell level higher than what scorching ray would manage.

That's assuming it fails the save (which yes, is a bit dicier than just missing one scorching ray out of three) and turns align so that they get those hits off before it frazzles. Because remember, if it has allies who hit you, concentration save could frazzle it before an ally, or both, gets a hit. If the enemy preempts the teammates, it may make the second save before they get a chance. Your teammates may not be in a position to act. This is all assuming you have an enemy that justifies this sort of focus.

The fact is it applying to only one enemy means you won't be getting that much extra damage unless the enemy is very spongy. The highest humanoid HP in the free monster manual is 67 for reference (haven't gone through the actual book yet, find function spoils me). If your DM has lots of of homebrewed high HP humanoid enemies with low wisdom saves, it's helpful. The thing is, I don't feel like most DM's, when creating a homebrewed big bad NPC, typically give them really low values for literally the most important saving throw in the game. It's a very situational tactic.

Paralyzing is good. Paralyzing humanoids? Mediocre. Paralyzing a single humanoid? Even more so.

The levels in which you use Hold Person, paralyzing humanoids can turn 5 rounds of expending resources into 1 round of expending resources. Instead of using up two slots for smite on two separate rounds, you get yo use one smite in one round and get the same effect as using two smites. Remember you reroll all damage dice (smite/sneak attack).

Once you are done fighting humanoids (though run into them still and can blow a 2nd level slot without thinking twice) you gain a spell called hold monster. Hold Monster works on any creature that isn't undead.

With a little bit of planning, anything that gets paralyzed dies in a round or two. Critical hits are automatic hits even.

It turns the big baddie into a smear. Then you are free to take out the minions without losing resources.

But also remember that Sorcerers have proficiency in Con saves. If you want to you can grab advantage on con checks versus damage... Sorcerers don't worry to much about fizzling spells.

The name of the game isn't just killing your enemy, it is how much you expend in order to kill your enemy. Paralyzation gives you a huge advantage in that department.

In public play and at home tables, hold person has cut down battle time so fricken much.

The cleric casts less healing spells, we take less short rests (currently no one cares), and we get more roleplaying time and time to goof off or have fun.

Sure you don't want to use it on minions, no need, but on big baddies or tougher creatures (like those damn hobgoblins) it makes everything easier.

It isn't the be all end all of offensive spells, but it is a top tier spell and effect.

[SharkForce]

careful spell is not a red metamagic. you don't use it on damage. you use it on CC. it isn't absolutely earthshakingly good, because most of the time you aim to miss your allies in the first place. but it is still quite good... for effects that have no effect on a save, at least.

[ChubbyRain]

careful spell is not a red metamagic. you don't use it on damage. you use it on CC. it isn't absolutely earthshakingly good, because most of the time you aim to miss your allies in the first place. but it is still quite good... for effects that have no effect on a save, at least.

You know, I always though Careful Spell had the wording of heighten spell when it comes to saving throws. The "first saving throw" wording is not present in Careful Spell.

I retract my red rating and give it blue/black depending on a few things.

Blue: If the chosen ones always pass the spell save during the duration.

Black: If the chosen ones pass the first save during the duration and must make the rest as normal.

Now it doesn't say how many and seems to have wording that assumes the spell gives one saving throw... But really an ongoing spell may be auto passed each time the chosen ones have to make a save... I feel like this could be used...

Not in a bad way but in a fun way by a DM or Player.

++++

Sorcerer carefully casts "Sleet Storm" on an area that has his allies and 2 hobgoblins.

Sorcerer chooses Wizard, Fighter, and Cleric to be protected from the spell.

Everyone: Difficult Terrain
Hobgoblins: Dex Save or Fall. Con Save or lose concentration.
Wiz/Fig/Cle: No Dex Save. No Con Save. (Auto pass)

Duration 1 minute.

So for one minute your allies only deal with difficult terrain but your enemies (or whoever else is there) has to deal with a lot of crap...

+++

I feel like a stinking cloud grapple build is needed. Perhaps some Sorcerer/Rogue action?

[SharkForce]

like I said. it's definitely not red, in the right situation. if you can't avoid getting your allies in the AoE of a web spell, careful spell makes that not matter.

[ImSAMazing]

With the release of Favored Soul (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes) and Storm Sorcerer (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf) I'd like to update my Sorcerer buffs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?387885-Sorcerer-Balance-(Buffs)) to give Draconic Bloodline and Wild Magic additional known spells.

I'd love some ideas on how to finish off the last small pieces of the puzzle. If you have suggestions for the missing pieces or alternate options please post!

Template: each bloodline gets spells at each of the listed level. I've expanded the Storm Sorcerer's template to give one 6th level spell. You can choose to ignore this if you want.

Spells Known Concerns: The spells are limited in choice so therefore the increase in diversity is somewhat limited.
24 spells known is not beyond the power level that the sorcerer should be at.

The Arcane Trickster (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Bard knows 16 +6 from any class plus an additional 2 from any class if college of lore is taken for a total of 22-24 with 6-8 from any class..
The Cleric can prepare 25+10 of his spells.
The Druid can prepare 25+8 of his spells.
The Eldritch Knight (a 1/3 caster) has 13 spells known.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20 and has 10 oath spells for a total of 23-25 prepared spells at 20.
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem). He can prepare 25+2.

Balancing the other factors of type/bloodline: I believe that the other factors of each bloodline/type are mostly equal, but do post any concerns about that as well.

Elemental Affinity: Remove the Sorcery point cost to gain the resistance. Bronze and Blue Dragons add their Charisma modifier for Thunder damage in addition to Lightning Damage.
Draconic Presence: Reduce the Sorcery point cost to 3 points.

Bend Luck: Remove Sorcery point cost

Google Docs 5e Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU)
Google Docs 5e New Spells (https://docs.google.com/document/d/13cl7zbg75eMEoP9pkJTAZinhVlaDo1M38HYrIrzG-jw)



Sorcerer Level
Spell Level
Draconic Bloodline
Favored Soul
Storm Sorcerer
Wild Mage


1st
1st
Absorb ElementsEE +

Acid: Eroding Mist1
Cold: Ice KnifeEE
Fire: Burning Hands
Lightning: Witch Bolt
Poison: Ray of Sickness
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Fog Cloud,
Thunderwave
Color Spray,
Tasha's Hideous Laughter


3rd
2nd

Acid: Acid Cloud2, Melf's Acid Arrow
Cold: Ice Slick3, Snilloc’s Snowball SwarmEE
Fire: Scorching Ray, Aganazzar’s ScorcherEE
Lightning: Aggressive Thundercloud4, Shatter
Poison: Web, Whip of Spiders5
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Gust of Wind,
Levitate
Crown of Madness,
Mirror Image


5th
3rd
Fear +

Acid: Acidic Tentacles6 or Eruptive Pustules7
Cold: Sleet Storm or Wall of Ice, Lesser8
Fire: Fireball or Melf's Minute MeteorsEE
Lightning: Lightning Bolt or Lightning Arrow
Poison: Miasmatic Form9 or Stinking Cloud
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Call Lightning,
Sleet Storm
Blink,
Hypnotic Pattern


7th
4th
Elemental Bane +

Acid: Vitriolic SphereEE
Cold: Ice Storm
Fire: Wall of Fire
Lightning: Storm SphereEE
Poison: Blight
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Conjure Minor Elementals*,
Ice Storm
Confusion,
Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere


9th
5th

Acid: Acidic Spray10
Cold: Cone of Cold
Fire: ImmolationEE
Lightning: Lightning Arc11
Poison: Cloudkill
2 Cleric Domain Spells
Conjure Elemental**
Mislead


11th
6th

Acid: Acid Fog12
Cold: Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
Fire: Investiture of FlameEE
Lightning: Chain Lightning
Poison: Disintegrating Poison13
1 spell from the Cleric list
Investiture of WindEE
Magic Jar


1 Eroding Mist is a refluffed version of Burning Hands that does acid damage instead of fire.
2 Acid Cloud is a refluffed version of Cloud of Daggers that does acid damage instead of slashing.
3 Ice Slick is based on Shatter with less damage and a secondary Grease effect. Ice Slick from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/ice-slick).
4 Aggressive Thundercloud is a refluffed version of Flaming Sphere that flies and does lightning damage. See Below. Aggressive Thundercloud from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aggressive-thundercloud).
5 Whip of Spiders is a refluffed version of Spiritual Weapon. Instead of it being a spectral weapon it is hundreds of tiny spiders which cling together to form a whip. That damage is poison damage instead of force. Whip of Spiders from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/whip-of-spiders).
6 Acidic Tentacles is a refluffed version of Hunger of Hadar that does acid damage instead of the cold damage part.
7 Eruptive Pustules based on Eruptive Pustules from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/eruptive-postules) and Fire Shield from 5e.
8 Wall of Ice, Lesser Based on Wall of WaterEE and Wall of Ice. Damage halved from Wall of Ice and based on Fireball - though it does much less due to having control aspect as well. See Below
9 Miasmatic Form. This spell functions like Gaseous Form and the area of the cloud functions as Stinking Cloud. Miasmatic Form (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/miasmatic-form) from Pathfinder.
10 Acidic Spray is a refluffed version of Cone of Cold that does acid damage instead of cold. A creature killed in this way is stuck in Rigor Mortis. Acidic Spray from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acidic-spray).
11 Lightning Arc based on Cone of Cold and Lightning Arc from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/lightning-arc). See Below
12 Acid Fog is a refluffed version of Contagion that creates an acidic mist and deals acid damage instead of Poison. It functions as a 5th level spell (but can be cast as a 6th). It also exists in Pathfinder.
13 Disintegrating Poison is a refluffed version of Dinintegrate that does poison damage instead of force damage.
*Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only smoke mephits, steam mephits, ice mephits, or dust mephits with it.
**Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only air elementals with it.


Aggressive Thundercloud
2nd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a piece of tree struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A 5-foot-diameter sphere of crackling storm clouds appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range and lasts for the duration. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of the sphere must make a Dexterity saving throw. The creature takes 2d6 lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. As a bonus action, you can make the sphere fly up to 20 feet. If the sphere enters space that contains a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the sphere’s damage, and the sphere stops moving this turn. The sphere ignites flammable objects not being worn or carried, and it sheds bright light in a 20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.

Eruptive Pustules
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a small amount of oil)
Duration: 10 minutes
Your skin erupts in swollen, pus-filled bumps for the duration. You can end the spell early by using an action to dismiss it. Whenever a creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack, the pustules burst open. The attacker takes 1d8 points of acid damage and must make a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of it’s next turn.

Ice Slick
2nd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
You create a blast of intense cold, coating all solid surfaces in the area with a thin coating of ice from a point of your choice within range. Each creature in a 10-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes takes 3d6 cold damage and falls prone on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one.
A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.
A 5-foot square of ice has 3 hit points. The ice is an instantaneous effect, but persists as non-magical ice. Under temperate conditions, the ice lasts 1 minute. In tropical environments, it might last only half as long. In cold environments where ice and snow persist without melting, it could last indefinitely.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.

Lightning Arc
5th-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You generate an arc of lightning between two targets that are no more than 60 feet apart. Both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them must make a Dexterity saving throw. A creature takes 8d8 lightning damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The spell fails if there is no line of effect between the targets. Lightning arc sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path. It can melt metals that have a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot above 5th.

Wall of Ice, Lesser
3rd-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a small piece of quartz)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You create a wall of ice on a solid surface within range. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius o f up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-square panels. Each panel must be contiguous with another panel. In any form, the wall is 1 foot thick and lasts for the duration.
If the wall cuts through a creature’s space when it appears, the creature within its area is pushed to one side of the wall and must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 4d6 cold damage, or half as much damage on a successful save.
The wall is an object that can be damaged and thus breached. It has AC 5 and 15 hit points per 5-foot section, and it is vulnerable to fire damage. Reducing a 5-foot section of wall to 0 hit points destroys it and leaves behind a sheet of frigid air in the space the wall occupied. A creature moving through the sheet of frigid air for the first time on a turn must make a Constitution saving throw. That creature takes 2d6 cold damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage the wall deals when it appears increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd, and the damage from passing through the sheet of frigid air increases by 1d6 for every 2 spell slots above 3rd.

Sounds good, great job!

[SharkForce]

looking more closely, one thing i would say:

wild mage should keep the sorcery point cost on bend luck. yeah, i know, you wanted to remove those costs, but bend luck is way too powerful to give it only an action cost.

[Kryx]

looking more closely, one thing i would say:

wild mage should keep the sorcery point cost on bend luck. yeah, i know, you wanted to remove those costs, but bend luck is way too powerful to give it only an action cost.

It's similar, but worse than bless. Bless is d4 on everything while Bend Luck is once per round and uses the reaction. It's decent, but I wouldn't say it was too powerful. Especially on a Wild Mage as it is the least powerful origin.

[SharkForce]

It's similar, but worse than bless. Bless is d4 on everything while Bend Luck is once per round and uses the reaction. It's decent, but I wouldn't say it was too powerful. Especially on a Wild Mage as it is the least powerful origin.

1) wild mage is not the least powerful. it is the most random, and wild surges can screw you over, but it is definitely not the least powerful. seriously, look at some of those surge possibilities: restore all SP. free level 5 magic missile. free see invisibility. 5 HP fast healing. a free heighten that applies to all targets instead of 1, and all saving throws instead of 1. a free misty step. an action surge. a free automatic reincarnate. regain a spell slot. a stacking +2 bonus to AC.

2) bend luck is after you see the roll, and can give a penalty to enemy saving throws. that is a major difference. the ability to react and give a -1d4 penalty to an enemy saving throw is massively powerful.

[Kryx]

1) wild mage is not the least powerful. it is the most random, and wild surges can screw you over, but it is definitely not the least powerful. seriously, look at some of those surge possibilities: restore all SP. free level 5 magic missile. free see invisibility. 5 HP fast healing. a free heighten that applies to all targets instead of 1, and all saving throws instead of 1. a free misty step. an action surge. a free automatic reincarnate. regain a spell slot. a stacking +2 bonus to AC.
Those abilities happen so uncommonly that it makes little difference. It's nice and flavorful, but is mostly a wash imo.


2) bend luck is after you see the roll, and can give a penalty to enemy saving throws. that is a major difference. the ability to react and give a -1d4 penalty to an enemy saving throw is massively powerful.
After is indeed more powerful. 2 is likely too high - 1 sounds better.

[SharkForce]

Those abilities happen so uncommonly that it makes little difference. It's nice and flavorful, but is mostly a wash imo.


After is indeed more powerful. 2 is likely too high - 1 sounds better.

reducing cost to 1 is probably fine. and those abilities aren't necessarily all that uncommon... depends on DM quite a bit.

[ChubbyRain]

One thing I do love the wildmage for is making a makeshift psionic warrior.

Fighter 5 (BM) / Sorcerer 15 (wild)

Refluff magic as psionics, refluff wild surge as psionic surge, action surge is expending psionic focus...

Plus the only way you would get more surge is if you tleeported to the 1990s and picked up some soda.