Sorcerous Origins: Bonus Spells in UA

[Auramis]

With the last couple Unearthed Arcanas, we've been given the Favored Soul in the class modifying/creating Arcana and the Stormborn in the Waterborne Arcana. They both get a list of bonus spells added to their spells known. When compared to the base class in the PHB, this makes these two new origins vastly superior because of the expanded list of spells. I've seen debate in some forums as to whether these origins should be allowed because of that alone, though their other mechanics seem rather fun.

I'm in the camp of these bonus spells in addition to spells known being a bit powerful, especially when PHB sorcerer has to use sorcery points in order to use some of his class abilities these two sorcerers just get for free or for casting spells passively. I think part of the point of the sorcerer is to have limited spells available in exchange for raw power, so adding more spells feels a bit strong on top of that.

With that in mind, what do you all think of adding these bonus spells to the list of spells a sorcerer has to draw from rather than just being free spells? Does that pull them more in line with the base sorcerer, or do you personally think base sorcerer feels weak and needs to be brought up to these UA ones?

[asorel]

My interpretation of the last two Sorcerer archetypes released is that the 5e design team regrets limiting the Sorcerer's spell list as much as they did, which is why both of the new origins add new spells. While I am not unsatisfied with the current Draconic Sorcerer, for example. I certainly don't think a slight boost would overpower it. In answer to your question, I think the current archetypes need to be pulled forward.

The most obvious fix for the Draconic origin in light of these new options would be to remove the Sorcery Point tax from the resistance trait. I think Draconic Aura is more-or-less fine as is. It may be a tad expensive; I'm not certain the effect is equivalent to a 5th-level spell. I would modify the wings to give you a flight speed equal to double your move speed, including any armor penalties. Extra spells are a bit tricky. A partial spell list that doesn't count against spells known would be ideal, but the distribution of elemental spells is simply too low for that to work. You could say that spells of the draconic ancestor's element wouldn't count against spells known. That favors Fire Dragon Sorcerers more than others, but then that was already true, and there isn't a way to fix that without adding new spells to the list.

Thoughts?

[JNAProductions]

Yeah. Metamagic is either too weak for its cost or too expensive for its power.

[Auramis]

My interpretation of the last two Sorcerer archetypes released is that the 5e design team regrets limiting the Sorcerer's spell list as much as they did, which is why both of the new origins add new spells. While I am not unsatisfied with the current Draconic Sorcerer, for example. I certainly don't think a slight boost would overpower it. In answer to your question, I think the current archetypes need to be pulled forward.

My main issue is that they state in the UA articles that they hadn't play-tested the two UA sorcerers. The limiting of spells was a good idea in my opinion, so throwing on more spells on untested sorcerers after having tested ones work out fine without them seems counter-intuitive. Person_Man stated in another thread that:


That was a very smart design decision, and its a shame to see the designers backtracking from it.

Of course uber powerful options are going to be popular with some players. But that doesn't mean its a good thing for the game.

I'm more inclined to agree with him in that regard.


The most obvious fix for the Draconic origin in light of these new options would be to remove the Sorcery Point tax from the resistance trait. I think Draconic Aura is more-or-less fine as is. It may be a tad expensive; I'm not certain the effect is equivalent to a 5th-level spell. I would modify the wings to give you a flight speed equal to double your move speed, including any armor penalties. Extra spells are a bit tricky. A partial spell list that doesn't count against spells known would be ideal, but the distribution of elemental spells is simply too low for that to work. You could say that spells of the draconic ancestor's element wouldn't count against spells known. That favors Fire Dragon Sorcerers more than others, but then that was already true, and there isn't a way to fix that without adding new spells to the list.

Thoughts?

Rather than do this, what about tweaking the new origins and give them sorcery point costs on abilities? The base two origins require points to be spent in order to gain their benefits, so I think it's fair to put some point costs on the abilities of the Storm origin and Favored Soul. It seemed really backwards to me when they made a point to even underline the necessity of sorcery points in sorcerer then release two origins that don't even mention them at all in addition to giving them new spells.

[SharkForce]

sorcery points are already used to fuel the only real class feature sorcerers get (ie metamagic). considering everything that sorcerers trade away to get said metamagic, I for one feel that letting them use the few (largely unimpressive) class abilities they get apart from metamagic without burning sorcery points is perfectly fine, and I'd have to say that sorcerers are much further behind the other primary casters in this edition than they were in 3.x and in 3.x they were a full tier below the other primary casters... so they probably don't need to be stuck with all the handicaps they have, but which all the other primary spellcasters don't have.

on the other hand, if you house rule all the other casters to be less awesome, I suppose that could change your perspective. at that point, it is entirely possible that sorcerers as presently constituted are perfectly fine.

[Auramis]

sorcery points are already used to fuel the only real class feature sorcerers get (ie metamagic). considering everything that sorcerers trade away to get said metamagic, I for one feel that letting them use the few (largely unimpressive) class abilities they get apart from metamagic without burning sorcery points is perfectly fine, and I'd have to say that sorcerers are much further behind the other primary casters in this edition than they were in 3.x and in 3.x they were a full tier below the other primary casters... so they probably don't need to be stuck with all the handicaps they have, but which all the other primary spellcasters don't have.

Somehow, that flew over my head when I made the point of ruling the UA abilities be fueled by the points. That's actually a good point about the metamagic needing those points more desperately.

What about removing point costs on abilities for the two base origins but still ruling the new bonus spells as simply options rather than adding them to the list? Would that work in y'all's opinions, or would they still need more?

[Kryx]

The bonus spells by the numbers:

24 spells known is not beyond the power level that the sorcerer should be at.

The Wizard knows 44 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem).
The Bard knows 22+6 from any class plus an additional 2 if college of lore is taken for a total of 28-30 with 6-9 from any class.
The Warlock knows as many as the default Sorc (15)+4 from Mystic Arcanum plus invocations for a total of 19+.
The Paladin can prepare between 13-15 spells at 20.


Using Storm Sorcerer's template the sorcerer would get 15 spells of his choice + an additional 9 lvl 1-5 spells of a set list. No where near Batman.

The Sorcerer needs a power boost and this is a decent way to do so. Even with the expanded list the Sorcerer is likely worse than both the Bard and the Wizard.



A partial spell list that doesn't count against spells known would be ideal, but the distribution of elemental spells is simply too low for that to work.
No it's not. I nearly have it all mapped out. Only a few gaps. Sorcerer Bloodline Bonus Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerer-Bloodline-Bonus-Spells)




Person_Man stated in another thread that:
I'm more inclined to agree with him in that regard.
As I said in the other thread I highly disagree with Person_Man in this regard. Players and WotC have for the longest time always wants the Wizards to be significantly more powerful than the Sorcerer. The same is true in 5e. Bridging the gap somewhat to make the Sorc have slightly more versatility does not invalidate the 40+ spells known by the Wizard in any way.

[Auramis]

As I said in the other thread I highly disagree with Person_Man in this regard. Players and WotC have for the longest time always wants the Wizards to be significantly more powerful than the Sorcerer. The same is true in 5e. Bridging the gap somewhat to make the Sorc have a small modocum more versatility does not invalidate the 40+ spells known by the Wizard in any way.

I hope I haven't given the impression of wanting the sorcerer to suck by comparison to the wizard. Rather, I was just wanting to keep the origins all at a relatively even level. I wouldn't gimp them in favor of exalting the wizard at all. If anything, I want them to be kept in line with one-another. Actually seeing the numbers of spells in front of me makes me rethink things, through.


No it's not. I nearly have it all mapped out. Only a few gaps. Sorcerer Bloodline Bonus Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?413398-Sorcerer-Bloodline-Bonus-Spells)

With that in mind, I want to say good job on these lists. They might help out a lot in getting our own houserules down.

[SharkForce]

The bonus spells by the numbers:

24 spells known is not beyond the power level that the sorcerer should be at.
[LIST]
The Wizard knows 40 total and can learn them all with gold (not a problem).

[snip]

As I said in the other thread I highly disagree with Person_Man in this regard. Players and WotC have for the longest time always wants the Wizards to be significantly more powerful than the Sorcerer. The same is true in 5e. Bridging the gap somewhat to make the Sorc have a small modocum more versatility does not invalidate the 40+ spells known by the Wizard in any way.

minor correction: the wizard starts with more than 2 at first level. I'm afb, but iirc the total is actually 44 spells known assuming they don't scribe a single one.

also, I would add that apart from metamagic, the sorcerer generally has lackluster class features (including archetype abilities) compared to the wizard; a wizard eventually gets unlimited use of a level 1 & 2 spell (most likely shield and mirror image, though other possibilities do exist), and the equivalent of at least 6 sorcery points per short rest (2 level 3 spell slots), all of which is in addition to spells prepared at any given time. a sorcerer never gets any at-will spells whatsoever, and eventually gets 4 sorcery points per short rest.

[Kryx]

I hope I haven't given the impression of wanting the sorcerer to suck by comparison to the wizard. Rather, I was just wanting to keep the origins all at a relatively even level. I wouldn't gimp them in favor of exalting the wizard at all. If anything, I want them to be kept in line with one-another. Actually seeing the numbers of spells in front of me makes me rethink things, through.
The issue is the default Sorcerer is not in line power-wise with the Wizard so balancing the new Sorcerer Origins based on the original is likely not the best method.

I agree with the goal of trying to make the 3 arcane casters near equal strength. I'd argue the Wizard and the Bard are near equal with the sorc needing a small boost. I think Bonus spells known and rituals would help - though they'd still be behind. Though I don't think they'd be too far behind - it's hard to say.

[asorel]

The issue is the default Sorcerer is not in line power-wise with the Wizard so balancing the new Sorcerer Origins based on the original is likely not the best method.

I agree with the goal of trying to make the 3 arcane casters near equal strength. I'd argue the Wizard and the Bard are near equal with the sorc needing a small boost. I think Bonus spells known and rituals would help - though they'd still be behind. Though I don't think they'd be too far behind - it's hard to say.

Warlocks are Arcane casters as well. I'd say they're nearly equal to the Wizard, perhaps a bit under. They're mostly a one-trick class with Eldritch Blast, but not bad power-wise.

[Kryx]

minor correction: the wizard starts with more than 2 at first level. I'm afb, but iirc the total is actually 44 spells known assuming they don't scribe a single one.
Correct - they start with 6. Edited.


Warlocks are Arcane casters as well. I'd say they're nearly equal to the Wizard, perhaps a bit under. They're mostly a one-trick class with Eldritch Blast, but not bad power-wise.
Agreed. I don't think they need a boost. If anything their DPR is higher than martials who specifically invest feats to do that amount of damage. They fulfill a different role than the other 3 though. More DPR and less utility, though they can do that fairly well.
http://i.imgur.com/k4OBAmw.png

[Dralnu]

I was in the camp that Favored Soul was overpowered. But I've moved on to welcoming it.

I've been thinking it over for a while now. I've also been playing a Dragon Sorcerer from levels 2-7. All things considered, the expanded spell list really isn't overpowered. I think the developers believe that Sorcerers know too few spells. It was a good design philosophy on paper, but the number they settled on was too little, and they've acknowledged that it's a complaint they hear from survey feedback.

Increased spells known is a power boost. No argument there: just look at wizards to see why. Having a variety of options means having more of the right tools at the right times. But as long as the spells given to sorcerers aren't breakable with metamagic -- I'm looking at you, Twin -- then it's not that bad.

I tried really hard breaking the Favored Soul but I just couldn't. The extra spells are really sweet, don't get me wrong. I thought Life domain was amazing. Bless + Spiritual Weapon for combat, twinned cure spells, good stuff. Medium armor + shield is really good, the Extra Attack is okay. But at the end of the day, Dragon Sorcerer is still the best blaster. There's no FS shenanigans that I found that tops the kaboom of a Fireball+CHA and other stuff.

Look at the new spells the Stormborn gets too. A good chunk are already on the sorcerer's list. Nothing looks broken when you add metamagic. Some of them no sorcerer would normally take, like gust of wind, because your spell list is so tight. So now you get to play with fun niche spells you normally wouldn't get. Nothing broken here in my opinion.

So yeah, knowing these extra spells isn't really broken. Make a sample character and see for yourself. I just wish they gave Wild/Dragon some extra spells too, but I doubt they'll be touching anything already published. So instead they improve their design going forward.

[asorel]

Regarding the Sorcerer capstone--I think Kane0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18570192&postcount=4) had the right idea by giving the Sorcerer a "signature metamagic" that could be cast for free on lower level spells.