Permanance, Scrolls and UMD

[Kanthalion]

I have a player (Bard 1/Warlock 7) Who wants to use his UMD to cast tongues and then permanent on himself, using scrolls. Tongues isn't a big deal, but I don't know if this would be setting a dangerous precedent. And does this circumvent the XP cost of permanancy?

[Drork]

The XP cost is added to the creation of the scroll. So yes in a way it does in another way it makes the scroll cost a lot more and a lot harder to get your hands on. Also keep in mind it can still be dispelled and render all that gold worthless. It might be a better option just to have an arm full of scrolls of tongues.

[Troacctid]

UMD can explicitly be used to activate scrolls, and he's only using the spells the way they're intended to be used, so I don't see any dangerous precedents here.

[Kanthalion]

UMD can explicitly be used to activate scrolls, and he's only using the spells the way they're intended to be used, so I don't see any dangerous precedents here.

My concern is both the XP and the requirement in the permanency spell that the caster be CL 11 to make tongues permanent.

Like I said above, tongues isn't a big deal, but what if they want to do the same thing with something more powerful then?

[Troacctid]

He'll need a scroll with a caster level of 11 or better, which increases the cost, and the xp cost is also included in the scroll's price, so it should be fairly expensive. Given that he's spending like 10k gp or whatever (I didn't do the math) it's plenty fair.

[Flickerdart]

Upon reading permanency with this in mind, I have some questions that I'm not sure of the RAW answers for. Namely: what exactly needs to be CL11 to satisfy the "you must be a minimum caster level" clause? Must both your tongues and permanency scrolls be CL11? Is it enough to only have a CL11 permanency? Can you have both at the lowest possible CL, but then use UMD to emulate a CL of 11?

[Drork]

Oh I miss read it your a DM. Just use a targeted dispel magic if it becomes to powerful. Players will not spend gold on something that can be stripped off them with a 3rd level spell. It isnt a bad spell to throw at PCs from time to time. Let the player know the risks so they can expect it later (mind you having such a spell as a high end dispel magic catch could save them the other way around).

[ApologyFestival]

My concern is both the XP and the requirement in the permanency spell that the caster be CL 11 to make tongues permanent.
The creator of the scroll must pay the XP cost when scribing the scroll, and in doing so effectively "imbue" the scroll with the XP cost. This increases the cost of the scroll beyond the standard cost for level 5 spells.

The creator of the scroll can also increase the caster level of the scroll up to their own caster level. So, a scroll of permanency with caster level 11 is not a big deal and a perfectly reasonable item to request. It does, however, also increase the cost of the scroll beyond the standard cost for level 5 spells.

The only issue here is if your player wants to pay the standard 1,125 gp for a level 5 scroll. A standard "off the shelf" scroll of permanency costs 10,125 gp to account for the 2,000 XP imbued within. As you can see, experience is quite expensive to buy. This off-the-shelf scroll still only has a caster level of 9, which comically enough makes the large amount of experience imbued a complete waste. And is not sufficient to make tongues permanent. Your player would need a scroll with 1,500 XP imbued and a caster level of 11.


Like I said above, tongues isn't a big deal, but what if they want to do the same thing with something more powerful then?
There is nothing on the list of spells that can be made permanent that is worth being concerned about. Tongues is, if anything, one of the more powerful options.

Note that permanent spells are really vulnerable to dispelling. Being cast from a scroll, the caster level to beat to render this investment worthless would be very low. In a campaign with any dispelling at all, minimum caster level buffs are gone during the first session. If anything, as a responsible DM it may be wise to advise your player that spending this much gold on an easily-dispelled trivial buff is a very bad choice, and that carrying many scrolls (or even a wand) of tongues is far more prudent.

All told, you really are worrying about nothing.

[Kanthalion]

Thank you all, especially ApologyFestival. I shall let him do it. Heck, since this is at character creation, that'll eat a lot of his WBL money and I'll be interested to see what he does with what's left. If I'm doing the math right, it looks like total cost for a CL 11 permanency and a tongues is going to 11025 gp. almost half his money.

[Strigon]

I'm not convinced dispelling is as likely as everyone else here thinks it is, unless it's used on combat buffs.
I can't really see the evil cabal of witches initiating combat and thinking "Well, the first thing we have to do is strip their ability to communicate in other languages; we can't hope to win until that happens!"

[Kanthalion]

I'm not convinced dispelling is as likely as everyone else here thinks it is, unless it's used on combat buffs.
I can't really see the evil cabal of witches initiating combat and thinking "Well, the first thing we have to do is strip their ability to communicate in other languages; we can't hope to win until that happens!"


I have no intention of targeting that specifically, but I could see it getting caught in the crossfire.

[ApologyFestival]

Kanthalion, if your player gets all of his scrolls custom made (and can thus dictate caster level, etc), I calculate the cost of a permanent tongues from scrolls as such:

The cost of a scroll is (spell level) * (caster level) * 25 + material costs. In the case of experience, 1 XP is worth 5 GP. So,

Scroll of permanency (CL 11th, containing 1,500 xp) = 5 * 11 * 25 + (5 * 1500) = 8875
Scroll of tongues (scribed by a wizard) = 3 * 5 * 25 = 375
Or, scroll of tongues (scribed by a bard) = 2 * 4 * 25 = 200

If you let him have the scroll scribed by a bard, the total cost is 9,075. Still very expensive!


I'm not convinced dispelling is as likely as everyone else here thinks it is, unless it's used on combat buffs.
I can't really see the evil cabal of witches initiating combat and thinking "Well, the first thing we have to do is strip their ability to communicate in other languages; we can't hope to win until that happens!"
Well, no, but against a potential spellcaster--and yes, a warlock counts--a common first course of action is a targeted dispel, making the (usually correct) assumption that spellcasters have many combat buffs on them for the entire adventuring day. Targeted dispel (against a creature) does not discriminate, and attempts to dispel every spell effect on the creature. A non-combat permanent spell is just an innocent caught in the blast.

[Kanthalion]

Kanthalion, if your player gets all of his scrolls custom made (and can thus dictate caster level, etc), I calculate the cost of a permanent tongues from scrolls as such:

If you let him have the scroll scribed by a bard, the total cost is 9,075. Still very expensive!


Actually, that is perfectly within his character concept to do that, and it ends up a bit cheaper, too. I like it.



Well, no, but against a potential spellcaster--and yes, a warlock counts--a common first course of action is a targeted dispel, making the (usually correct) assumption that spellcasters have many combat buffs on them for the entire adventuring day. Targeted dispel (against a creature) does not discriminate, and attempts to dispel every spell effect on the creature. A non-combat permanent spell is just an innocent caught in the blast.

Exactly. Although I might feel a little guilty doing it to him since he spent so much on it.

[With a box]

a continuous item of tongues are 24k(bard version..)
1.5*2*4*2000
if he craft it by himself, he can get it at 12k

[SinsI]

a continuous item of tongues are 24k(bard version..)
Emissary of Barachiel is 25% cheaper (requires only 3rd caster level instead of 4th). Warlocks get their items from the cheapest available source due to Imbue Item.

This topic made me wonder - what is the maximum caster level of a spell scroll that a Warlock can create using his 12th level Imbue Item ability?
Can 12th level Warlock create, say, 100th level Permanency scroll?

[DarkSonic1337]

Please just tell him to buy a wand of tongues and maybe invest a few skill points in "speak language" if he's really intent on being able to communicate in weird languages. It will avoid having half of his starting wealth tied into something with little overall relevance and also avoid any feelings of guilt that might come from permanently erasing something he spent half his wbl on as an afterthought to stripping his renewable defenses.

[Kanthalion]

Please just tell him to buy a wand of tongues and maybe invest a few skill points in "speak language" if he's really intent on being able to communicate in weird languages. It will avoid having half of his starting wealth tied into something with little overall relevance and also avoid any feelings of guilt that might come from permanently erasing something he spent half his wbl on as an afterthought to stripping his renewable defenses.

I told him that he can do it if he wants to, but I also warned him about the possibility of a dispel magic and that I was not going to pull punches because he spent 10k on it.

[JoranShadeslayr]

Emissary of Barachiel is 25% cheaper (requires only 3rd caster level instead of 4th). Warlocks get their items from the cheapest available source due to Imbue Item.

This topic made me wonder - what is the maximum caster level of a spell scroll that a Warlock can create using his 12th level Imbue Item ability?
Can 12th level Warlock create, say, 100th level Permanency scroll?

It doesn't specify in the description of imbue item, but it's most likely equal to the warlocks invocation caster level, and it's a safe bet that is how most DM's would rule it.

[JDL]

That's why a Ring of Counterspells is a damned good idea. At only 4,000 gp, it's a cheap item for a character high enough level to have access to permanent spells. Cast Dispel Magic into the ring for an immediate counterspell chance if you ever get hit with one. Plus if you know you're gonna eat a hit, getting the Cleric to give you Spell Immunity to Dispel Magic is an excellent strategy too.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Plus if you know you're gonna eat a hit, getting the Cleric to give you Spell Immunity to Dispel Magic is an excellent strategy too.

It's not. Spell Immunity doesn't do anything against dispel. It's effectively infinite SR, and dispels aren't subject to SR.

What you can do for much the same effect is get a weapon with the Spellblade enhancement (PGtF) keyed to (Greater) Dispel Magic. Not only does it make you immune to dispels (though your spells can still be targeted individually if your enemy can see them), it also allows you to return the dispel as a free action one round later.
Spell Turning also works.

[SinsI]

Ring of Counterspelling is a very bad idea - because it doesn't work. There are dozens of different spells and abilities that mimic Dispel Magic, and it protects against one and only one of them.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ring of Counterspelling is a very bad idea - because it doesn't work. There are dozens of different spells and abilities that mimic Dispel Magic, and it protects against one and only one of them.

It's not that bad. Sure, there are other dispels, but none are used even half as much as the standard Dispel Magic.
Unless your DM is seriously out to screw you over and replaces every instance of Dispel Magic on your enemies with something else as soon as you get protection against it, getting protected from Dispel Magic and its greater version should take care of the vast majority of dispels against you.

For everything else you'll have to get a Ring of Spell Battle. Which is, again, an item any full caster should invest in anyway, so it's not much of a hassle.

[SinsI]

Do you seriously think you won't meet any Psionics enemies? Incarnum? Invocation-using? No monsters with Dispel Magic SLAs?
No enemies willing to cast SpellTheft or Arcane Turmoil to get some additional bang for his action instead of simple Dispelling?

Sky-high Caster Level is the only thing that can protect you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Do you seriously think you won't meet any Psionics enemies? Incarnum? Invocation-using? No monsters with Dispel Magic SLAs?
No enemies willing to cast SpellTheft or Arcane Turmoil to get some additional bang for his action instead of simple Dispelling?

Sky-high Caster Level is the only thing that can protect you.

The vast majority of campaigns have psionic and incarnum using enemies as a minority, if they use them at all. Invocation users are more common, but not that much. And most monsters with Dispel Magic as a SLA have a pretty low CL with it, so they aren't really much of a danger.

Unless you're playing in a campaign that uses such enemies in the majority of encounters a Ring of Counterspells is still a decent investment. Especially since you can freely upgrade it to Greater Dispel later, which is a lot more common simply because there are fewer alternatives with a similar cap on the CL bonus.

So it won't help you against everything. None of the other defenses you can get do, but that doesn't make them useless.

Sky-high CL is better, that's true. But it's hardly the only defense and getting it is also a lot more expensive (or requires a lot of cheese).
If you just want some basic protection the Ring of CS is a good buy.
If that's not enough for you get a Ring of Enduring Arcana to wear during your buffing, take the Mysterious Magic (SoX) and/or Shadow Weave magic (PGtF) feats, use Limited Wish to duplicate the effects of Dispelling Buffer, get Spell Turning, etc.

But all of that is a lot of expense for something that is ultimately just one avenue of attack among many, and even getting sucessfully dispelled is usually not immediately fatal (unlike a lot of other effects).
WBL means you have to make sacrifices somewhere, and i'd rather leave a chance to be dispelled than go without Death Ward, Freedom of Movement or similarly important immunities.

[SinsI]

The cost of additional caster that casts Tongues with Cooperative metamagic is 60-150 gp (caster level * spell level * 10) (some casters will require more, but no need to include casters less efficient than a wizard). Let's say that's +1 CL per 150 gp since you don't get much access to the more exotic(and cheaper) variants .
You want to be impervious to about DC 40(50 to be on the safe side), and basic DC is 11 + your caster level. So you need ~30 additional casters = 4500 gp.

Ring of Counterspells is 4000 gp.

[Studoku]

Surely there's an item that does this, even without having to break out the custom item guidelines?

[Hiro Quester]

How often does he need to speak and understand a different language? He could buy a wand of tongues and have 50 uses. Most of the time the need will be for out of combat situations. Much easier to use and much cheaper. could potentially last the character's whole career.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Couldn't you give your player a custom tongues lesser invocation, that lasts 24 hours? It would be in line with other lesser invocations. You can even create a custom magic item of Extra Invocation, at caster level 11 (the level required for greater invocations - you need greater invocations to select a lesser invocation as Extra Invocation).

Edit: the custom magic item creation rules may have guidelines on feat prices, but I couldn't find them quickly. It'd probably cost around 2*10k gp, similar to Combat Reflexes granted by Serpent Armour, doubled for being slotless.