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View Full Version : New Free Prc on the WOTC site, the Swiftblade



Ramza00
2007-04-18, 08:45 AM
I love it already <3 :smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smallamused:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

Note this is the redone version of the swiftblade.

The original was posted on the wotc website and someone linked to it on the CO boards, it got badmouthed and eviscerated due to how it loss too many caster levels, is medium bab, and you didn't gain much besides a free quicken spell for your loss of 4 caster levels. The original creator of the class saw the thread and asked how CO would redo it. There were several redone builds by alot of people, and the original creator took what he liked from it, redid his prc, and sent it to WOTC and posted the new version on the website.

The thread which discussed the old version is here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=818086

They have since taken down the old version and replaced it with a new version at the same address.


An elf arcane 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4 will be a very capable gish. BAB 17 Caster Level 16. It won't have as high as levels spells as a "pure gish" but the class abilities it gains allow it to still be capable.

brian c
2007-04-18, 09:16 AM
Hm... well I like the abilities a lot better than the previous one. Still, casting Haste and having +3 BAB means that you need at beast Wizard 5/Fighter 1 (or any other full BAB) just to get in, and without being a full caster PrC it's best to have that Fighter or something else level. I love the flavor, but I still can't quite figure out what exactly this would do for a party...

Though recalling the "breaking the speed of sound" thread here a little while ago, I bet a swiftblade could move pretty fast if you optimized it that way.

Rahdjan
2007-04-18, 09:29 AM
I see this PrC more for the bard that wants to be better at melee.

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 09:33 AM
Wizard 6 has +3 bab
Sorcerer 6 has +3 bab.

They both qualify.

Most of the benefits are personal based, but one particular nice one for the party is you casting haste as a swift action starting lvl 3 (lvl 9 at the minimum)

But getting an extra standard/move action per round (not an extra attack like haste). Getting an ability that is effective timestop. 50% miss chance against melee, ranged, or targeted magic. Getting a boost to initiative equal to your int, cha, or relevant ability modifer. Plus Full BAB

Finally you gain bounding assault, a boost to ac and attack hit, and something like skirmish, these benefits though are relatively minor.

Also remember Abjurant Champion has a +5 BAB requirement, and only proficiency with 1 martial weapon. Most races have at least 1 martial weapon as a racial proficiency.

Rad
2007-04-18, 09:56 AM
Is Haste in the duskblade spell list? You would miss the time stop ability, but extra action+swift spell+full round arcane channel has to hurt... And you get armor on top of it.

Talya
2007-04-18, 10:03 AM
This PrC is...amazing.

Being able to take a single move action AND make a full attack rivals the dervish for melee flexibility.

Person_Man
2007-04-18, 10:09 AM
Is Haste in the duskblade spell list? You would miss the time stop ability, but extra action+swift spell+full round arcane channel has to hurt... And you get armor on top of it.

Haste is not on the Duskblade or Hexblade spell list.


UPDATE: FULL BAB SWIFTBLADES!

Duskblade 5/Emissary of Barachiel 7/Swiftblade 8: Haste is on the Emissary of Barachiel list, though sadly they cast divine spells, and the Swiftblade only progresses arcane spells.

Full BAB Class 6/Corrupt Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051006b&page=1) 5/Swiftblade 9: Corrupt Avenger gets arcane spells off of a short list that includes Haste. Sadly, Corrupt Avenger requires +6 BAB, making 10th level Swiftblade unattainable for this build.

Cleric 5/Wizard or Sorcerer 1/Swiftblade 10/Mystic Theurge 4: Haste from Time domain, cast Divine Power for full BAB. Buff spells+Zen Archery+Diligent Rapidity+Rapidshot+Manyshot+Innervated Speed=insanity

Wizard 5/War Weaver (http://209.221.178.225/showthread.php?t=769208) 5/Swiftblade 10: Cast Tensor's Transformation for full BAB. Combining War Weaver with Swiftblade is particularly interesting, because it focuses on casting buff spells.

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 10:49 AM
While this isn't the best way to do things for lets be honest spells kick everybody's ass. But you can focus on being a fighter and not a mage with this build.

Fighter 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Swift Blade 10
19 BAB, casts as 12th lvl wizard, and for your first 4 lvls you are a fighter and not a mage unlike a typical gish.

This above build far better than a fighter 20 and some similar builds.


Also Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Swift Blade 10
Cha to saves, and with turn Undead Cha to Damage

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 10:51 AM
Turn Undead+Divine Might I meant to say

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 11:04 AM
Beguiler also gets haste :) And the class has 4 skill points per level (a reduction of 6 to 4).

Beguiler 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4

Talya
2007-04-18, 11:27 AM
So a pure wizard (or sorceror) who takes this class has at most a caster level of 16 at level 20...no 9th level spells.

However, at level 8 swiftblade, she can conceivably cast 4 spells in a round (three for a sorceror). (Haste, quickened anything, standard action1, standard action2) as well as take a move action.

Even discounting the martial prowess...that's a pretty powerful ability. Worth the loss of caster levels? I don't know...

Talya
2007-04-18, 11:34 AM
Taken further, for epic builds, the wizard who takes this class loses almost nothing other than a few feats...and damn do they get things to make up for it.

A level 24 character who went 6 wizard, 10 swiftblade, 8 wizard, and took the "practiced spellcaster" feat, is a full level 24 wizard with all the spell slots of any other level 24 wizard. The loss of epic feats will hurt, but the ability to take 3 actions per round is worth quite a few epic feats.

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 11:40 AM
Don't forget Tayla he also gets timestop effectively thus while it isn't 9th lvl spells it is a 9th lvl spell he gets.
--------------------------------

With the Battle Belt Item in the Magic Item Compedium (gets 3 charges per day, swift action activation, use 1 charge get move action, 2 charges standard action, 3 charges full round action.) or a rod of quicken


Standard Action spell
Standard Action 2 (from Swiftblade 8)
Standard Action 3 via Battlbelt/Metamagic Rod/Quicken Spell/Some other swift action spell.
Item Familar casting a spell, Item familiars located here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm
Familiar casting a spell due to "imbue familiar with spell ability" spell.
That is a total of 5 spells cast per round this is before you break out arcane fusion (allowing the sorcerer to cast even more spells)

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 11:49 AM
Taken further, for epic builds, the wizard who takes this class loses almost nothing other than a few feats...and damn do they get things to make up for it.

A level 24 character who went 6 wizard, 10 swiftblade, 8 wizard, and took the "practiced spellcaster" feat, is a full level 24 wizard with all the spell slots of any other level 24 wizard. The loss of epic feats will hurt, but the ability to take 3 actions per round is worth quite a few epic feats.
You should make an epic prc of swiftblade, and that epic prc should have epic bonus feats or abilities that are worth the price of epic bonus feats.

If that is too much work for you though, you can compare it to other epic prcs. An epic eldrtich knight is also d6 hit points, (2 skill points vs 4) and similar flavor, thus if I didn't make an epic custom prc I would just use the epic eldritch knight and say it is the epic swiftblade.

Talya
2007-04-18, 12:07 PM
I thought about continuing Swiftblade as epic, but you'd continue at slow caster level progression, which would be bad for epic Spell Resistance. You're better to go with another epic PrC, as you suggest.

You know, for all the melee potential this gives (and it's a lot of melee potential), this does more for their casting capabilities and defense. There is a price to be paid with regard to slowed acquisition of new spells and sub-optimal feat selection, but the end result is rather powerful...you end up with a superior wizard who is extra-hard to kill and is ALSO very good at melee in the unlikely event that he feels the need to engage in it.

Ramza00
2007-04-18, 12:33 PM
I thought about continuing Swiftblade as epic, but you'd continue at slow caster level progression, which would be bad for epic Spell Resistance. You're better to go with another epic PrC, as you suggest. You know, for all the melee potential this gives (and it's a lot of melee potential), this does more for their casting capabilities and defense. There is a price to be paid with regard to slowed acquisition of new spells and sub-optimal feat selection, but the end result is rather powerful...you end up with a superior wizard who is extra-hard to kill and is ALSO very good at melee in the unlikely event that he feels the need to engage in it. Not all epic classes have the same progression as the non epic progression. Case in point, just to name a few the eldritch knight (full caster epic), elemental savant (full caster epic), metamind (full manifester epic), crystal master (full manifester epic), etc.

Dausuul
2007-04-18, 01:30 PM
Heh... permanent Freedom of Movement + Bounding Assault + Solid Fog = Win.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-18, 01:31 PM
This would be great in a gestalt game.

TSGames
2007-04-18, 02:06 PM
Ramza00, you have a big problem with triple and double posting.

Anyway, I like the new changes, and I would actually consider playing one.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-18, 04:41 PM
Taken further, for epic builds...What's that you say? Things get stupid at epic levels? Shocking. Shocking I say.

I like the overhaul that the class has received. Spring Attack and Bounding assault are no-brainers that should've been in there in the first place, as is the full BAB. Losing 4 caster levels still hurts hard no matter who you are, but at least there's reasonable payoff now.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-18, 09:57 PM
3.0 Haste as its 9th level ability, and Time-Stop with lower slots(or essentially maximised in 9th level slots) as its 10th. Were it not for the loss of 9th level spells, this would be almost obscene. :)

Greendevilman
2007-04-18, 10:11 PM
I like the new version. Not something you'd necessarily take if you wanted to strictly optimize but its a very cool class and something that I can see enjoying playing as a reasonably good gish in a non-optimized party a lot. A real improvement over the first iteration.

Roland St. Jude
2007-04-18, 11:50 PM
Sheriff: Okay people, please just edit your posts, rather than double and triple posting. Thanks.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-18, 11:54 PM
I am totally in love with this class and have a huge hankering to play it immediately. It's... it's beautiful.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:19 AM
I just want to see someone QUALIFY for this class. Having to prepare/spont. cast NOTHING but Haste spells for one whole level is just funny to think about.:smallbiggrin:
...
Also, why do I feel like a member of this class would have an appreciation for espresso?

AmoDman
2007-04-19, 12:35 AM
This would be great in a gestalt game.

Great? Great? It would own.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 12:36 AM
Paticularly if you gestalt a double caster combo (like Wizard/Archivist). Then you can REALLY put those double caster levels to work.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-19, 12:42 AM
Double caster? Nah, go with caster//martial adept. He'll be the baddest dude that ever did live.

Don't forget Jade Phoenix Mage for maximum "JESUS CHRIST!"-age.

AmoDman
2007-04-19, 12:46 AM
Paticularly if you gestalt a double caster combo (like Wizard/Archivist). Then you can REALLY put those double caster levels to work.

That's what I was thinking. Still need meat shields at levels...but come on!

Rakeesh
2007-04-19, 12:54 AM
Not to mention the fifty percent failure chance you get vs. individually targeted spells, and melee attacks, when under your own haste spell (and since you can cast it as a free action without having to use Quicken, that's going to be a majority of your encounter time I imagine)!

McDeath
2007-04-19, 12:59 AM
It's pretty cool, but as the description states like four hundred times, it is very specialised. This class contributes little to any non-combat functions, which are just as important as combat. If you want to as fast as a toddler on red cordial, with slightly lower BAB and quite a bit lower caster level, this class is for you.
Edit: Once again, my post starts the second page. I swear that happens every single time.

Ethdred
2007-04-19, 05:34 AM
Am I missing something, but if you can cast Haste as a free action every round, then won't your party be always moving at double speed? Even out of combat that's a pretty hefty bonus.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 05:46 AM
Am I missing something, but if you can cast Haste as a free action every round, then won't your party be always moving at double speed? Even out of combat that's a pretty hefty bonus.

You still use up a spell slot, it just drops the casting time.

Nebo_
2007-04-19, 06:04 AM
I'm pretty sure it still takes a spell slot to cast.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-19, 06:34 AM
Just as a point, you shouldn't be able to use this class in a gestalt game since it's one of those fusion classes like arcane trickster that does 2 classes' thang at once.

I love the class, but I don't think the last level is worth it. A wiz 6 / Swiftblade 9 / Abj Champ 5 would have BAB +17 and cast at 17th, which is 9th level spell(s). Would you trade that for free time stops, which you can cast anyway?

Khoran
2007-04-19, 06:36 AM
You know, I was thinking, how do you think this PrC would work out if you took levels in Beguiler. You gain a plethora of abilities and enter at the same time as Sorcerers or Wizards.

Talya
2007-04-19, 06:38 AM
I just want to see someone QUALIFY for this class. Having to prepare/spont. cast NOTHING but Haste spells for one whole level is just funny to think about.:smallbiggrin:


That's not really a requirement. They can still use other level spell slots for other spells. It's only their third level spell slots they need to hold exclusively for haste.

Note that a sorceror automatically qualifies if they take Haste as their 3rd level spell at level 6, because it's the only one they get.

Talya
2007-04-19, 06:40 AM
It's pretty cool, but as the description states like four hundred times, it is very specialised. This class contributes little to any non-combat functions, which are just as important as combat. If you want to as fast as a toddler on red cordial, with slightly lower BAB and quite a bit lower caster level, this class is for you.
Edit: Once again, my post starts the second page. I swear that happens every single time.

Except you're still a wizard. With all the spells you'd have had without taking swiftblade...only you lag a couple levels behind in your casting. Seems that's still a lot of non-combat functionality. More than a fighter gets, anyway.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-19, 07:16 AM
That's not really a requirement. They can still use other level spell slots for other spells. It's only their third level spell slots they need to hold exclusively for haste.

Note that a sorceror automatically qualifies if they take Haste as their 3rd level spell at level 6, because it's the only one they get.

Umm...no.


Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.He still has to actually use the Haste spell at least once. :smalltongue:

Edit: And not use the 3rd level slot for any metamagiced versions of lower level spells either.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-19, 07:20 AM
So he blows them at night :P.

Dhavaer
2007-04-19, 07:22 AM
So he blows them at night :P.

You dirty, dirty, person-of-nonspecified-gender you.

brian c
2007-04-19, 11:16 AM
Just as a point, you shouldn't be able to use this class in a gestalt game since it's one of those fusion classes like arcane trickster that does 2 classes' thang at once.

It's recommended that you not use combo classes in gestalt, like Mystic Theurge, but it's not banned or anything. That's up to the DM, like everything else.

Ramza00
2007-04-19, 11:28 AM
Just as a point, you shouldn't be able to use this class in a gestalt game since it's one of those fusion classes like arcane trickster that does 2 classes' thang at once.

And what class is the Swiftblade a fusion of? Please dear tell.

------------------------------------------

I understand a DM saying no to this class via DM rule 0 for other reasons not that it is a combo class. It is balanced by the fact you lose 4 caster levels, in gestalt you won't lose 4 caster levels, instead you just lose 4 lvls of some other progression. Using 4 lvls to get an extra standard/move action is just way too good, and this is before the other benefits of the class.

Thus I can see a DM saying no, the reason why that you provided is fallacious though.

Hurlbut
2007-04-19, 11:56 AM
It's "Pray do tell"

Ikkitosen
2007-04-19, 03:28 PM
And it's arcane caster and fighter, like eldritch knight.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 04:45 PM
Ikkitosen, it really isn't a combination class. It's close, but the loss of four caster levels and having all its class abilities dependant on haste spells is just too much to call it a theurge.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-19, 05:09 PM
Ikkitosen, it really isn't a combination class. It's close, but the loss of four caster levels and having all its class abilities dependant on haste spells is just too much to call it a theurge.

So you'd allow it in a gestalt game? I have to disagree, it's clearly a "gish" PrC (fight+cast, not cast+cast like a theurge), and while not the obviously most powerful choice it's clearly filling 2 roles - caster and fighter. It's just that, in the spirit of balance, it doesn't fight as well as a fighter or cast as well as a wizard.

Ramza00
2007-04-19, 05:14 PM
So you'd allow it in a gestalt game? I have to disagree, it's clearly a "gish" PrC (fight+cast, not cast+cast like a theurge), and while not the obviously most powerful choice it's clearly filling 2 roles - caster and fighter. It's just that, in the spirit of balance, it doesn't fight as well as a fighter or cast as well as a wizard.

From the UA/SRD


A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.
The swiftblade isn't essentially a class combination.

You may say you won't allow it due to DM rule 0, but you can't use the arguement it violates that bullet point of the Gestalt rules. Now you can say it violates the spirit of gestalt rules, but that is a hell of another matter.

Ikkitosen
2007-04-19, 05:25 PM
Ok, I interpret it that having full bab and the ability to significantly advance a full spellcasting ability makes it a combination of 2 classes. You may interpret it the other way should you so choose, of course!

EDIT: Back on track - it's still a great-looking PrC either way :)

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-19, 05:47 PM
Ok, I interpret it that having full bab and the ability to significantly advance a full spellcasting ability makes it a combination of 2 classes. You may interpret it the other way should you so choose, of course!

EDIT: Back on track - it's still a great-looking PrC either way :)
Meh. Not worth it if you can't take it outside of gestalt. Potentially worth it in a PvP type game for 4 levels to get the plus casting stat bonus to Initiative but otherwise its just not worth it.

Turcano
2007-04-19, 05:51 PM
From the UA/SRD


The swiftblade isn't essentially a class combination.

You may say you won't allow it due to DM rule 0, but you can't use the arguement it violates that bullet point of the Gestalt rules. Now you can say it violates the spirit of gestalt rules, but that is a hell of another matter.

I think that the spirit of that prohibition is that any prestige classes that advance one or more caster levels can't apply to two different classes. In other words, taking mystic theurge in a gestalt game would advance the CL of the class you took it on and overlap with (i.e., not stack with) the CL of the other side of the progression, making the mystic theurge pointless; the same is pretty much true for the eldritch knight as well. On the other hand, the arcane trickster gives you class features that aren't merely progressions another class feature, so you could take levels in it and overlap the progression for either CL or sneak attack (whichever is on the other side from the one you added AT levels to). At least that's how I see it, anyway.

Everyman
2007-04-19, 06:23 PM
Ok, I interpret it that having full bab and the ability to significantly advance a full spellcasting ability makes it a combination of 2 classes. You may interpret it the other way should you so choose, of course!

EDIT: Back on track - it's still a great-looking PrC either way :)

Well, we agree to disagree, but we can see each other's reasoning. I think we can call this a sucessful debate.:smallbiggrin:

PS. I concur. It is an awesome PrC. Maybe not all powerful, but a fun one.

Droodle
2007-04-29, 02:53 AM
I love the class, but I don't think the last level is worth it. A wiz 6 / Swiftblade 9 / Abj Champ 5 would have BAB +17 and cast at 17th, which is 9th level spell(s). Would you trade that for free time stops, which you can cast anyway?The big advantage to the swiftblade is that, just like haste, you'll be able to cast timestop over and over and over and.....see my point?

This class just begs to be used by a reach fighting Battle Sorcerer. I'd go with Battle Sorcerer6/Swiftblade 10/and probably just finish out with more levels of Battle Sorcerer (in my opinion, prestige classes aren't very, well, prestigious if every character has 12 of them by level 20). Make sure this guy takes combat reflexes, Arcane Strike, Somatic Weaponry, and (eventually) Power Attack. He'll be a demon with a decent long spear.