SorcLock build: How much Warlock?

[Totema]

I'm playing a new 5e game with my local group, and the plan according to the DM is to start with Lost Mines and pick up PotA when we're ready to move on. This time around I decided to go the route of the charming charismatic spellslinger, so I rolled up a tiefling warlock who has is fond of anything related to fire. (And as an RP hook, he also has an aversion to water ranging from minor annoyance to outright phobia.)

This is going to be a long game. Like I said, we're going to finish Lost Mines and most likely explore everything there is to explore in PotA, and this DM likes long campaigns, so I predict that we'll most likely finish at least at 18th level, with even 20th not being unrealistic. So I began thinking about where I want my tiefling to progress in the long run, and moving into sorcerer seemed like a good option. (The DM even allowed me to refluff the draconic bloodline into an infernal bloodline, mostly keeping everything mechanical intact except for the boost to socializing with dragons, which would likely apply to fiends instead) The trouble is, I'm having a hard time figuring out when I want to jump into sorcerer. Warlock 2/Sorc X would provide me with more spells and spell slots earlier on, but I would lose the ability to take on a pact boon. The Tome boon would have been most attractive to me in this case. I'd also lose the extra warlock spell and the ability to use my pact magic slots at 2nd level, but that's a little less worrisome for me. If I do decide to take that third level of Warlock, I'd have slower SP and spell slot progression and potentially lose the extra SP, a 5th level spell slot, and the subclass capstone, which is kinda cool but not vital to my concept. And that's depending on if I get to that point anyway. I've even heard of sorclock builds with 4 levels of warlock, but I'm less sure about that.

Anyway, it really just boils down to me not being sure when to stop with the warlock levels. Anyone have any advice?

[SharkForce]

warlock 3 potentially *gains* you sorcery points if you convert your warlock spells to sorcery points (which at some point you probably will, because extra level 2 spells will gradually be less and less important).

the capstone isn't that valuable either, so i wouldn't worry too much about that.

the real kicker is the delayed progression of your spellcasting. not sure if i'd say it's worthwhile or not... going one more spell level isn't that much worse, i suppose.

[RulesJD]

Start with Sorc 1. You want that proficiency in Con saves.

Then Warlock 2. AB for Cha to EB and insert your other preferred Invocation. Personally, I would go Book so you get rituals spells which are always useful at all levels.

Then Sorc 2-6. You desperately want that +Cha to fire damage.

At this point, I would go Warlock 3 for those 4 rechargeable Sorc points per long rest. That's literally your high Sorc level feature granted way earlier. You can do amazing things with Heightened/Quickened/Twinned that recharge every short rest. Sorc 6 grants you access to Fireball and Scorching Ray, the two best blasting spells outside of your EB cantrip. Honestly, the best Sorc spells are all level 3 anyways because you never get the great utility spells of Wizards. But after Warlock 3, just pump Sorc levels.

[Totema]

Start with Sorc 1. You want that proficiency in Con saves. The idea of changing over to sorc didn't occur to me when I rolled up my character, but luckily I'm quite sure my DM will let me make the change, especially since we're still at 1st level.

[SharkForce]

Start with Sorc 1. You want that proficiency in Con saves.

Then Warlock 2. AB for Cha to EB and insert your other preferred Invocation. Personally, I would go Book so you get rituals spells which are always useful at all levels.

Then Sorc 2-6. You desperately want that +Cha to fire damage.

At this point, I would go Warlock 3 for those 4 rechargeable Sorc points per long rest. That's literally your high Sorc level feature granted way earlier. You can do amazing things with Heightened/Quickened/Twinned that recharge every short rest. Sorc 6 grants you access to Fireball and Scorching Ray, the two best blasting spells outside of your EB cantrip. Honestly, the best Sorc spells are all level 3 anyways because you never get the great utility spells of Wizards. But after Warlock 3, just pump Sorc levels.

you don't get rituals until warlock 3 (ie character level 9).

[PotatoGolem]

Start with Sorc 1. You want that proficiency in Con saves.

Then Warlock 2. AB for Cha to EB and insert your other preferred Invocation. Personally, I would go Book so you get rituals spells which are always useful at all levels.

Then Sorc 2-6. You desperately want that +Cha to fire damage.


Just as a note, you can't take the book invocation at level 2, because you don't have pact of the tome yet. You can switch out your second invocation for the book when you take your third level of warlock (level 9 in this progression). If that's what you're doing, I'd probably take agonizing blast as your second invocation- knocking people away is great for a glass cannon who doesn't want to be in melee range and lets you outrun enemies with equal speed.

[Totema]

If that's what you're doing, I'd probably take agonizing blast as your second invocation- knocking people away is great for a glass cannon who doesn't want to be in melee range and lets you outrun enemies with equal speed. I think you mean Repelling Blast, yeah?

[PotatoGolem]

I think you mean Repelling Blast, yeah?

Yep! Mixed those two up. It's been a long day.

[Safety Sword]

As has already been mentioned, the delay in getting higher level spells is going to be a real kicker here.

You might be better off sticking with one class so that you get the earliest access possible to those. Access to high level spells is probably the single biggest jump in power for any spell casting class.

[Naanomi]

If you want to play primarily like a sorcerer, than 3 levels of warlock 'at the end' for a late level power boost isn't the worst way to go.

If you want to play primarily like a warlock (IE mostly EB things with Hex and light spell support) than Warlock 2+/Sorc x can be pieces together in lots of satisfying combinations; even with some other classes thrown in if you'd like.

I am having fun with Sorc 1/Warlock 4/Sorc +4/Warlock +1/Fighter 2/Sorc +9 and an extreme go focus on EBing everything multiple times a round

[TheOOB]

If you must do this multiclass, take as few levels as 'lock as possible. Warlock and Sorcerer don't really multiclass well together. Sorc is all about raw power, and giving up your highest level spell slot and eternally being weaker than your team mates isn't a good way to do that.(If you're doing this for blast don't, sorc has no problems doing damage).

Remember that you have to level your build, and how it looks at level 20 is pretty irrelevant for the majority of the campaign. Look at the specific abilities you're getting at each lock level and ask "is this worth losing my most powerful abilities for 90% of my career?"

[Easy_Lee]

I say take 8 or 9 levels of sorcerer first. The extra CHA on Eldritch blast doesn't start coming into play until level 11, and you can decide over that period of time whether you want to take warlock levels. It also prevents delayed spell progression, to a certain degree.

If you know that you want warlock levels, there are two common breaks: 2 levels of warlock for the EB invocations, or 3 levels for that plus Tome lock, yeidling plenty of utility ritual spells. Both delay your sorcerer progression, and are only really a good idea if your party needs the at-will DPR more than they need your sorcerer-ing.

[XmonkTad]

Personally, I like going starting out Sorc2/Lock1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409694-The-Coffee-Drow-A-Sleepless-Sorclock) (don't actually do this though, this is not a real suggestion). Even without doing anything that even remotely abuses the rules, having at least something that recharges on a short rest really helps. I mean, yes, losing spell levels vs your comrades hurts, but you'll find that having more spell power in the form of "I can blast more each encounter" is actually quite strong. If your DM is sticking to the "6 encounters per day with 2-3 short rests" model you won't have bigger spells than the single-classed full caster, but you will be able to do more when they're reduced to cantrips (and your cantrips will be better anyway).

If you do make it to level 20, I can't imagine wanting more than 3 levels of warlock. Book of Ancient Secrets gives you some of the best utility out there. But unless you feel that a feat is worth your one-and-only 9th level spell slot, don't bother. I consider taking 3 levels of warlock to be better than the sorcerer capstone, and I consider the draconic presence bloodline's 18 ability to be rather lackluster, especially compared to the best ritual casting in the game (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4149206).
EDIT: while Book of Ancient Secrets is the best ritual casting in the game it scales off of warlock level, so dipping for it doesn't make a ton of sense. There are still plenty of 1st and 2nd level ritual spells, but it's up to you if that's worth that extra level of sorcerer.

As to the order, I really like starting sorc and then picking up your fist warlock level at 3rd, and not getting your next one until after 8th. This is because at sorcerer 7 you get the ability to create 5th level spell slots, which is quite nice when even the wizard can't do better than a 4th level spell.

If you were taking the wild magic sorcerous origin instead then I would say getting Warlock 2 asap and not getting warlock 3 would be nice because Spell Bombardment + Agonizing Eldrich Blast is quite a lot of free damage. But that doesn't seem to fit with your character concept.

[Totema]

Thanks guys. I decided to go with 3 warlock levels for this guy, since it doesn't look like we're going to have a whole lot of at-will magic, and the idea of a caster based around a toolbox of cantrips seems kinda cool to me. I realize there are better ways to handle that (hello, bard!) but I'm not really concerned with a high level of optimization in this game. :smallbiggrin:

[Easy_Lee]

Make sure to start sorcerer as the constitution save is important (people always forget that sorcerers get this).

[Asmotherion]

Since Sorcerer is my favorite class, and, even if I end up as something else, I always start with sorcerer, here are some suggestions:

A) Sorcerer is best cross-classed with wizard. Even one level of wizard, can grant you much more versality in utility spells, which, as a sorcerer, you'll either completelly focus on, or completely ignore, with your limited spell known list. A wizard spellbook can be used to cast spells as long as you can cast spells of that level (it doesn't say you have to be able to cast them as a wizard). So, Sorcerer 14 Wizard 7 or Sorcerer 18 Wizard 2 are good options. Wizard 1 is good enough to get limitless spells, and at 2 you can also get one of the school mechanics, and cheaper spells in that school.

B) If you are going to cross-class Sorcerer-Warlock, you don't want less than 3 warlock levels at least, so forget your finaly power in Sorcerer (which you get at 18). It's better if you do that with a dragon sorcerer, as his 14 power (the wings) is the peak of his awesomness, with the fear/awe effect is too SP costly to be effective, and if they pass the save, they are immune... that, and the fact you can have the same result with a fear spell... if you're into chaos magic (I'm more of a Dragon Sorcerer), however, you don't want to miss spell bombardment, which means you'll have too chose between a pact boon or Spell bombardment... so, Sorclock is way more effective with Dragon Sorcerer. I would suggest Sorcerer 14/Warlock 6 or sacrifice 2-3 level of warlock to give Bard/Rogue levels for versality and a final Wizard level for access to many spells.

[Totema]

A) Sorcerer is best cross-classed with wizard. Even one level of wizard, can grant you much more versality in utility spells, which, as a sorcerer, you'll either completelly focus on, or completely ignore, with your limited spell known list. A wizard spellbook can be used to cast spells as long as you can cast spells of that level (it doesn't say you have to be able to cast them as a wizard). So, Sorcerer 14 Wizard 7 or Sorcerer 18 Wizard 2 are good options. Wizard 1 is good enough to get limitless spells, and at 2 you can also get one of the school mechanics, and cheaper spells in that school.

This is a can of worms that should not be opened. My interpretation of the wizard spellbook - as well as that of anyone who respects good game balance - is that the follows the same spell learning restrictions as any other caster class when multiclassing. The PHB even uses the wizard as an example of what a multiclasses caster can do:


You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.

If you convinced your DM that the spellbook gives you carte blanche to cast any kind of wizard spell, you need a smarter DM.