5e's "spontaneously prepared" casting in 3.5?

[heavyfuel]

For those who don't know, prepared casters in 5e aren't vancian. Instead, they have a number of spells they can prepare based off their class level and relevant ability (max +5). They can then cast these spells spontaneously as long as they have the spell slots for them.

My current players HATE preparing spells, but also dislike being forced to choose from a pool of spells known and, during our 5e experience, the new preparation system was loved by all.

What do you guys think of something along these lines?


You can prepare "Relevant Ability Mod + CL" spells, but never more than "1+CL*2" spells prepared.
Prepared casters need to prepare Metamagic feats as well. Each such feat counts as X spells prepared, where X is how much they raise spell level. The feat can then be applied to any spell like a spontaneous caster would, but without increase in casting time. Spell level increases regularly for modified spells.
Cantrips on a "Cantrips Known" basis. At will, but use PF's versions.
Losing relevant ability (Ability Damage, buff wearing off, etc) means you lose random spells to acomodade your score


Edit: Cleaned up the post, reorganized some ideas.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you want prepared spontaneous casting in 3.5, take a look at the Spirit Shaman. Shouldn't be too hard to apply their system to other classes. While you're at it you could give the sorcerer and favored souls non-delayed spellcasting, because that 1-level delay is entirely unnecessary.

Also, I'm pretty sure that spell slots = Vancian, because sorcerers are definitely Vancian. Non-Vancian would be something like psionics (maybe), invocations, Incarnum, soul binding, that sorta stuff. Just a nitpick.

[Crake]

The unearthed arcana spell points system for prepared spellcasters is exactly what you want here. You spend more spell points, rather than higher level spell slots to increase a spell's effect, since power scales on caster level rather than slot level, and each spell point acts as a caster level boost. Think of it like power augmentation in psionics. You still prepare the same number of spells though, and can cast any of them spontaneously as many times as you like, so it's something of a buff to prepared casters. Only drawback is a relatively smaller number of spells per day I believe, since spells need to be augmented to be at full power.

[BWR]

You can adopt Pathfinder's Arcanist (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classes/arcanist.html).

[heavyfuel]

The problem with these systems is that you still have to "prepare" for each level. I was really looking for something that just says "You have X spells per day, regardless of level". You could prepare only high level spells, but you'd still be limited to your slots, so it's probably not a great idea

About Spell Points specifically, there will be Psionic classes in the world already, and I like them to feel distinct. So players are welcome to use the system, just not for spells.

@Vancian: In his works, magic is only like prepared casters. You have a spell memorized (prepared), when you cast it, it's erased from your mind until you meorize it again. The sorcerer is an adaptation, though since they don't forget the spell they cast, it's not very vancian.

[With a box]

The problem with these systems is that you still have to "prepare" for each level. I was really looking for something that just says "You have X spells per day, regardless of level". You could prepare only high level spells, but you'd still be limited to your slots, so it's probably not a great idea

@Vancian: In his works, magic is only like prepared casters. You have a spell memorized (prepared), when you cast it, it's erased from your mind until you meorize it again. The sorcerer is an adaptation, though since they don't forget the spell they cast, it's not very vancian.

you always can cast lower level spell by useing higher level spell slot


Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

[heavyfuel]

Don't really understand your point With a box. Mind elaborating?

[Andreaz]

You can adopt Pathfinder's Arcanist (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classes/arcanist.html).
This or psionics. Psionics are limited just like a sorcerer, but the way their power reserves work, and the way their powers work, you won't miss the lack of "i know all the spells!" in the least.

[atemu1234]

Don't really understand your point With a box. Mind elaborating?

He's pointing out that lower-level spells can be put into higher level spell slots, it's just not optimal.

The problem with this system is regardless of how you do it, it often winds up increasing Wizard and the like's versatility, something that should not happen.

[Psyren]

You can adopt Pathfinder's Arcanist (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classes/arcanist.html).

This. You can staple that method onto all of your prepared casters and they will still be effective and fun to play.

[heavyfuel]

He's pointing out that lower-level spells can be put into higher level spell slots, it's just not optimal.

The problem with this system is regardless of how you do it, it often winds up increasing Wizard and the like's versatility, something that should not happen.

Does it increase? I actually thought about it before posting.



"Relevant Ability Mod + CL" spells prepared
"1+CL*2" maximum spells prepared
Preparable Metamagic feats, counting as X spells prepared. X is how much they raise spell level. They would then be applied spontaneously as a free action.



No matter how much you optmize, you're still limited by your CL. So an Elven Generalist Wizard with 22 Int at ECL 1, normally has 4 lv 1 slots. But with this rule, you're limited by CL, he'll have only 3.

At higher levels, he still has less spells prepared. By level 10, our Elven Wizard now has 30 Int, giving him 7, 7, 5, 5, 5 slots for a total of 29 spells prepared. With the rule, he only has 20 spells prepared, that is, if he doesn't want any metamagic feat. The Incantatrix that wants to use her Persistent Spell feat has only 14 spells to prepare (though she can prepare most of them with Persistent without raising their level).

Even if he prepares 10 lv 5 spells, he's still limited to casting 5 of them, and now he has less lv 4 and 3 spells, which are still very useful at this stage.

If anything this rules promotes preparing non-specific spells and are anti-metamagic abuse. It hurts - but doesn't kill - the Batman Wizard that can solve every prolem with a standard action or the Spelldancer that walks about with 20 Persisted buffs. They can still be played, and will still be extremely powerful, but they already were extremly powerful before. Meanwhile, the guy that just wants a cool magic dude that isn't as restrictive as the sorcerer doesn't have to worry about bookkeeping so much.

Yes, the numbers aren't perfect. Reducing the max spells to, say, "1+CL*1.5 (round down)" or something along these lines might work better.

[Inevitability]

Nitpick: In 5e the number of spells you can 'prepare' is not ability modifier + proficiency bonus, but ability modifier + level in relevant class. There's a big difference between having 11 or 25 prepared spells at level 20.

[Extra Anchovies]

At higher levels, he still has less spells prepared. By level 10, our Elven Wizard now has 30 Int, giving him 7, 7, 5, 5, 5 slots for a total of 29 spells prepared. With the rule, he only has 20 spells prepared, that is, if he doesn't want any metamagic feat. The Incantatrix that wants to use her Persistent Spell feat has only 14 spells to prepare (though she can prepare most of them with Persistent without raising their level).

Even if he prepares 10 lv 5 spells, he's still limited to casting 5 of them, and now he has less lv 4 and 3 spells, which are still very useful at this stage.

If anything this rules promotes preparing non-specific spells and are anti-metamagic abuse. It hurts - but doesn't kill - the Batman Wizard that can solve every prolem with a standard action or the Spelldancer that walks about with 20 Persisted buffs. They can still be played, and will still be extremely powerful, but they already were extremly powerful before. Meanwhile, the guy that just wants a cool magic dude that isn't as restrictive as the sorcerer doesn't have to worry about bookkeeping so much.

Yes, the numbers aren't perfect. Reducing the max spells to, say, "1+CL*1.5 (round down)" or something along these lines might work better.

This suggestion is in no way anti-metamagic abuse. Out level 10 elven generalist would at that point only be able to use Persistent Spell on his zero-level spells under the standard system (assuming he took Easy Metamagic). Metamagic feats increase spell levels by varying amounts to gate the availability of their effects (e.g. Persistent adds +6 so you don't get access to it before level 11 or 13, but that's ignoring reducers).

Metamagic feats are the wrong way to make this system work. You'd have to write specific "at higher levels" effects for each spell that you want to be scaling. Or, if you really want this magic system, you could play 5e, because that game is already balanced around a magic system of this sort.

[heavyfuel]

Nitpick: In 5e the number of spells you can 'prepare' is not ability modifier + proficiency bonus, but ability modifier + level in relevant class. There's a big difference between having 11 or 25 prepared spells at level 20.

Ah, indeed. I went by memory, but it's been a while since I last played 5e.


This suggestion is in no way anti-metamagic abuse. Out level 10 elven generalist would at that point only be able to use Persistent Spell on his zero-level spells under the standard system (assuming he took Easy Metamagic). Metamagic feats increase spell levels by varying amounts to gate the availability of their effects (e.g. Persistent adds +6 so you don't get access to it before level 11 or 13, but that's ignoring reducers).

Metamagic feats are the wrong way to make this system work. You'd have to write specific "at higher levels" effects for each spell that you want to be scaling. Or, if you really want this magic system, you could play 5e, because that game is already balanced around a magic system of this sort.

True for the level 10 Elven Generalist. Not true for the level 5 Elven Generalist, 4 Incantatrix, 1 IotSFV. You said "ignoring reducers", but that's ignoring the one single thing that makes metamagic so abusive. Metamagic feats may very well be the wrong way to go about it, but that doesn't make the system anti-metamagic abuse. Like I said, it doesn't kill metamagic abuse, it only reduces it.

Why would I need "at higher levels" effects? As Dire_Stirge pointed out, in 5e at lv 20 you have 25 spells. By this system you would have anywhere from 25 (low low op) to 41. Even at lv 3, 5e gives you 6 prepared spells, now you have 7. A Druid can afford to prepare both Cure Light Wounds and Cure Moderate Wounds if he wants them that badly. Sure, it's expensive to get both spells, but he's still a freaking druid. And spells such as Fireball wouldn't need an "at higher levels" clause, they would simply progress as they already do.

Telling someone "go play X instead" is irrelevant to the topic. If I'm asking for help to import a specific system from a larger one into a system I prefer, your answer shouldn't be "lol just go play the other one".

[Troacctid]

If I were doing this, I would port the spell slots and spells prepared directly from 5th edition. It's an easy conversion and it should create better gameplay.

A thing you would need to consider is that 5e balanced this change for Sorcerers by making them the only class with metamagic. Unless you're planning to remove Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters from your game entirely, they'll need something to compensate for having their whole schtick usurped.

[heavyfuel]

If I were doing this, I would port the spell slots and spells prepared directly from 5th edition. It's an easy conversion and it should create better gameplay.

A thing you would need to consider is that 5e balanced this change for Sorcerers by making them the only class with metamagic. Unless you're planning to remove Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters from your game entirely, they'll need something to compensate for having their whole schtick usurped.

Might work... There's still the problem of ability scores. In 5e you can get up to +5, in 3.5 you can get up to god knows how much. Which is why I felt the need to limit it with the CL formula.

A few questions:

Should I allow extra spells for high ability scores?

How do I deal with the Bard now being 9th level caster? Simply make him a Sublime Chord from the get go?

Would you say one extra spell per day per level would make the Sorcerer a good pickup if metamagic remained as it is in 3.5? I mean, if the answer to the first one is "no", he'd be the only class with more than one high level spell per day

[Extra Anchovies]

True for the level 10 Elven Generalist. Not true for the level 5 Elven Generalist, 4 Incantatrix, 1 IotSFV. You said "ignoring reducers", but that's ignoring the one single thing that makes metamagic so abusive. Metamagic feats may very well be the wrong way to go about it, but that doesn't make the system anti-metamagic abuse. Like I said, it doesn't kill metamagic abuse, it only reduces it.

No, it increases it, by a lot. Give up four spells per day, and suddenly all of your spells are twinned. Our 10th-level elven generalist would still have 16 spell slots; enough for three fifth-level spells per encounter with a few slots to spare for out-of-combat utility. And all of these spells are twinned.

[Troacctid]

Might work... There's still the problem of ability scores. In 5e you can get up to +5, in 3.5 you can get up to god knows how much. Which is why I felt the need to limit it with the CL formula.

A few questions:

Should I allow extra spells for high ability scores?

How do I deal with the Bard now being 9th level caster? Simply make him a Sublime Chord from the get go?

Would you say one extra spell per day per level would make the Sorcerer a good pickup if metamagic remained as it is in 3.5? I mean, if the answer to the first one is "no", he'd be the only class with more than one high level spell per day

Off the top of my head:

1. Extra spells prepared, not extra spell slots, as in 5e. It works there, it can work here. And ditch the 1/2 CL cap, it makes no sense. You can't have spells prepared equal to your caster level with a maximum of half your caster level.
2. Port over their higher-level spells from 5e. You can do the same for Rangers and Paladins. I wouldn't give them free access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list like Sublime Chord does, it's a bit overpowered.
3. Give the Sorcerer the same free metamagic abilities as in 5e, chosen from the same list? I bet it'll be fine. Sorcery points can coexist with metamagic feats. If all you give them is extra spell slots, it probably won't be worth it, especially considering the lack of class features.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about spell-to-power erudites?

All your spells/powers are known, you can learn new ones, and you can just cast x different ones of each level per day, if you have the power points. For example, a third-level erudite gets two unique powers per level per day, and knows first- and second-level powers. That means they could manifest two different first-level powers, and two different second-level powers, any number of times per day (again, if they have the power points). Which powers you can use aren't 'locked in' until you actually use one. Until you manifest a power, you can cast your entire list of powers/spells known, spontaneously.

[heavyfuel]

No, it increases it, by a lot. Give up four spells per day, and suddenly all of your spells are twinned.

You still needs to pay for them. Giving up 4 spells simply makes you able to use the feat (assuming you already spent a feat on it). If you have Extend, Quicken and Twin spell, and want to be able to use all three, you need to pay 9 spells; but a quickened twinned magic missile still costs you a 9th level slot.

Sorry if this part wasn't clear.


Off the top of my head:

1. Extra spells prepared, not extra spell slots, as in 5e. It works there, it can work here. And ditch the 1/2 CL cap, it makes no sense. You can't have spells prepared equal to your caster level with a maximum of half your caster level.
2. Port over their higher-level spells from 5e. You can do the same for Rangers and Paladins. I wouldn't give them free access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list like Sublime Chord does, it's a bit overpowered.
3. Give the Sorcerer the same free metamagic abilities as in 5e, chosen from the same list? I bet it'll be fine. Sorcery points can coexist with metamagic feats. If all you give them is extra spell slots, it probably won't be worth it, especially considering the lack of class features.

1. "You can't have spells prepared equal to your caster level with a maximum of half your caster level". Didn't quite get what you meant. Mind giving some examples?

3. Free metamagic seems dangerous without also applying the rules for Swift Action spells from 5e (1 swift action spell allows only for 1 additional cantrip). Would you apply this? If so, for all swift action spells, for those quickened, or just for Sorcerers?


How about spell-to-power erudites?

While this might work, I still want Psionics to remain the sole owner of power points (or mana, or anything like that)

[Chronos]

I think the "maximum of half your caster level" was meant to refer to the maximum level of spell you can prepare. Thus, for instance, a 10th-level caster can prepare 10+mod spells total, all of which are 5th level or less.

[DarkSonic1337]

So how would this interact with all the available caster level boosters out there? Would increasing your caster level via items allow you to prepare higher level spells? (gets abusable VERY quickly)

[heavyfuel]

I think the "maximum of half your caster level" was meant to refer to the maximum level of spell you can prepare. Thus, for instance, a 10th-level caster can prepare 10+mod spells total, all of which are 5th level or less.

Correct!


So how would this interact with all the available caster level boosters out there? Would increasing your caster level via items allow you to prepare higher level spells? (gets abusable VERY quickly)

Not higher level spells, just more spells

[DarkSonic1337]

Correct!



Not higher level spells, just more spells

Your post contradicts itself. If the highest level spell you can prepare is equal to half of your caster level, then increasing your caster level would increase the level of the highest level spell you can prepare.

Perhaps add a clause like "equal to half of your caster level gained from classes?"

[heavyfuel]

Your post contradicts itself.

No, it doesn't.




"Relevant Ability Mod + CL" spells prepared
"1+CL*2" maximum spells prepared


No mention of maximum spell level, simply maximum number of spells prepared

[Extra Anchovies]

"Relevant Ability Mod + CL" spells prepared
"1+CL*2" maximum spells prepared

Well, the issue is that these seem to be contradictory. The number of spells a caster can prepare is equal to their ability mod + their CL, but the maximum number of spells they may prepare is also 1 + CL*2? So does a 1st level wizard with 20 Int have 6 spells per day (first formula), or do they have 3 spells per day (second formula)?

[heavyfuel]

Well, the issue is that these seem to be contradictory. The number of spells a caster can prepare is equal to their ability mod + their CL, but the maximum number of spells they may prepare is also 1 + CL*2? So does a 1st level wizard with 20 Int have 6 spells per day (first formula), or do they have 3 spells per day (second formula)?

They can prepare, normally, "ability mod + CL", but are still limited to a maximum of "1 + 2*CL", so that a incredibly high ability mod doesn't allow them to have an insane amount of spells prepared

[Extra Anchovies]

They can prepare, normally, "ability mod + CL", but are still limited to a maximum of "1 + 2*CL", so that a incredibly high ability mod doesn't allow them to have an insane amount of spells prepared

Okay. So the number of spells they can prepare is equal to ability mod + CL unless that would exceed a limit of 1+2*CL, in which case the number of spells they can prepare is 1+2*CL. That's pretty nice, I guess the wording was just a bit tricky.

[Chronos]

Even if you can prepare a spell of a higher level than you should be able to cast, it doesn't matter, since you still wouldn't have a spell slot to cast that spell out of. Preparing such a spell would be a total waste.

[heavyfuel]

Okay. So the number of spells they can prepare is equal to ability mod + CL unless that would exceed a limit of 1+2*CL, in which case the number of spells they can prepare is 1+2*CL. That's pretty nice, I guess the wording was just a bit tricky.

Yeah, sorry if this too wasn't clear. I should probably edit the main post as it was written in somewhat of a hurry, and it seems some ideas got mixed up.


Even if you can prepare a spell of a higher level than you should be able to cast, it doesn't matter, since you still wouldn't have a spell slot to cast that spell out of. Preparing such a spell would be a total waste.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly