What are vegetable matter?(minor creation)

[With a box]

when I looked up minor creation:

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vegetable+matter
vegetable matter: matter produced by plants or growing in the manner of a plant
is that include..
1. fruits?
2. wood?
3. paper?
4. pure water?(Transpiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpiration))
5. some kind of meat?(grazing animals gain weight by eating plants, dues produced by plants.:smalleek:)
6. oxygen?
7. Nanocellulose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanocellulose)? (it's almost strong as aluminum!:smallsmile:)

[Yuki Akuma]

Vegetable matter, in conversational English, generally refers to plant parts. Meat and water wouldn't count. I wouldn't think nanocellulose is a thing your character would even know about, either.

Fruits, wood and paper should all be fine though.

[BWR]

when I looked up minor creation:

is that include..
1. fruits?
2. wood?
3. paper?
4. pure water?(Transpiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpiration))
5. some kind of meat?(grazing animals gain weight by eating plants, dues produced by plants.:smalleek:)
6. oxygen?
7. Nanocellulose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanocellulose)? (it's almost strong as aluminum!:smallsmile:)

1. yes but it won't taste good or give nourishment (duration)
2. yes
3. probably yes
4. no - not vegetable matter even if it is often a component of such
5. no. meat is not vegetable matter. If one of my players tried that I would smack them
6. see 4
7. possibly. Does your PC know what that is?

[Milo v3]

1. yes but it won't taste good

Why wouldn't minor created fruit taste good?

[atemu1234]

Why wouldn't minor created fruit taste good?

Rotten or something?

[Milo v3]

Rotten or something?

Based on that, the spell is effectively useless, since you couldn't even make anything out of wood with it. Obviously it doesn't create rotting vegetable matter (and if it can it, it wouldn't be the default).

[Ruethgar]

Could make oil to burn things. And although needfully dead, that does not mean rotten. It would create sterile fruit most certainly.

But you could Plant Renewal, Sprout/Plant Growth it to life. Note that the only matter you created from Minor Creation was the seed which disappears after hr/lvl, but the plant matter grown from the seed came from other magics and is not part of what was minorly created. It may cut the roots partially off depending on where the seed was, but with hearty, fast growing, or plants that can grow from cuttings that shouldn't be much of a problem and with Nurturing Seeds that problem vanishes entirely.

Edit: I had been thinking about this in the back of my mind but never really put much effort into it. Thank you for prompting me to find a way to create life with low level spells(especially if you use Psionic Minor Creation can keep it at lvl 1 if Pathfinder's Sprout spell is allowed).

[Zordran]

The only other place in the rules that I know that mentions vegetable matter is Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm), which mentions it as a "kingdom" of things alongside Animal and Mineral. One can infer from the next line that fungus is part of the vegetable kingdom, so, if one is going down the road of defining one spell from another, unrelated spell, then a plant, fungus, algae, or anything else classically considered a plant, or anything derived from it would fall within the definition of "vegetable matter."
D&D is generally tuned to the way that people saw the world before Linnaeus and Newton, and tends to break down in the face of modern thinking, which is why a fireball detonated under a ship doesn't create a bubble that snaps the ship in two.
It is not necessarily outside the bounds of the spell to create nanocellulose, but, as previous posters have asked, how would your character know about it? Minor Creation is actually a clever way to answer this. If your character is especially experimentally minded, then maybe one day he says to himself, "Huh, look at this weird scum I found. I wonder what I can do with it," followed by repeatedly casting Minor Creation in conjunction with some very high Alchemy checks (DCs in the 40s are typically needed to make new knowledge) might learn you a thing or two. What you're doing is unintuitive, so even at this massively accelerated rate, this is a long-term downtime experiment taking months or years of your time. And of course, any use of the spell in this way is totally up to your DM, since you're effectively trying to cheat Minor Creation into acting like Major Creation. Let's be honest with ourselves here. :smallwink:

[icefractal]

Creating food is an interesting one. It takes 24 to 72 hours for humans to completely digest food, but the process starts fairly quickly, and by 6-8 hours it's passed through the small intestine. The latter is within the duration of Minor Creation, and even the former can be achieved by an Extended Major Creation. Plus, small creatures like Halflings probably digest faster.

So at that point, there are two options:
1) Once it's digested, it's no longer part of the spell. So you can survive off Minor Creation, although you'll have to eat a lot more than normal since you're only getting part of the nutrient value.

2) Even as single molecules, the matter remains magically created and will disappear after the duration ends. Which makes magically created food an interesting type of poison - you eat it, digest it, then the duration expires and some of the cells in your body fall apart. Not sure what the effect of that would be, but pretty unhealthy, I think.

Also, if you get drunk off Minor Created wine, will you instantly sober-up once the duration expires? Or has the alcohol already had its effect and its disappearance won't matter? Either way, your liver gets a break.

[Darrin]

Various Veggies:

Drugs:
Devilweed (6 GP, BoVD)
Dreamlily (1 GP, Sharn)
Jhuild/Thrallwine (6 GP, LoD)
Luhix (2000 GP, BoVD)
Mushroom Powder (100 GP, BoVD)
Oruighen (20 GP, LoD)
Redflower Leaves (300 GP, BoVD)
Rhul/Battlewine (50 GP, LoD)
Sezarad Root (75 GP, LoD)
Tekkil (5 GP, LoD)
Vodare (40 GP, BoVD)
Ziran/Bloodfast (100 GP, LoD)

Poisons:
Black Lotus Extract (4500 GP, DMG)
Bloodroot (100 GP, DMG)
Cretel Leaf Residue (150 GP, A&EG)
Crippling Vine (180 GP, A&EG)
Goodbye Kiss (350, Complete Scoundrel)
Greensickness (4000 GP, Dungeonscape)
Horror Weed Extract (600 GP, A&EG)
Id Moss (125 GP, DMG)
Malyss Root Paste (500 GP, DMG)
Psychotropic Rot (125 GP, DotU)
Redek Vine Extract (1500 GP, A&EG)
Rill Leaf (120 GP, A&EG)
Sassone Leaf Extract (300 GP, DMG)
Sleeping Weed (500 GP, A&EG)
Snowflake Lichen Powder (75 GP, Frostburn)
Spelunker's Oil (15 GP, DotU)
Striped Toadstool (180 GP, DMG)
Terinav Root (750 GP, DMG)
Vapid Leaf Extract (250 GP, A&EG)

Trade Goods:
Aleeian Wine (100 GP/bottle, A&EG)
Garlic (1 CP/oz, A&EG)
Lotus (100 GP/oz, A&EG)
Marzipan (20 GP/oz, A&EG)
Mushroom Wine (20-135 GP/bottle, A&EG)
Paprika (30 GP/oz, A&EG)
Pimento (40 GP/oz, A&EG)
Saffron (15 GP/lb, PHB)
Turmeric (25 GP/oz, A&EG)

Slimes/Mold/Fungi:
Bone Fungus (Dungeonscape)
Brown Mold (DMG)
Flux Slime (ELH)
Gray Slime (Dungeonscape)
Green Slime (DMG)
Phosphorescent Fungi (DMG)
Yellow Mold (DMG)

Misc:
Atramen Oil (50 GP, Planar Handbook)
Bittlerleaf Oil (25 GP, RotD)
Blackroot Oil (20 GP, Secrets of Xen'drik)
Darkberry (5 GP, Magic of Faerun)
Earthsilk Jersey (150 GP, RoS)
Earthsilk Rope (12 GP, RoS)
Felsul Flower Oil (100 GP, Magic of Faerun)
Flour Pouch (1 SP, Dungeonscape)
Icewild Lichen Paste (50 GP, Secrets of Sarlona)
Ipecac (50 GP, EtCR)
Ironthorn Extract (25 GP, Sandstorm)
Mule Pollen (50 GP, Magic of Faerun)
Mordrei'in (25 GP, Faiths of Eberron)
Oleum (30 GP, Sandstorm)
Red Tidewater (25 GP, Planar Handbook)
Rubber Ball (3 GP, Dungeonscape)
Serren (4000 GP/bow, BoED)
Shadowtop Torch (1 SP, Magic of Faerun)
Shriek Paste (50 GP, Dragon Compendium)
Silverbark Sap (20 GP, Magic of Faerun)
Sleepweed Pod (50 GP, Magic of Faerun)
Slumberweed (500 GP, Dragon Compendium)
Tarmak War Paint (500 GP, Dragonlance Campaign Setting)
Truth Wine (75 GP, Dragon Compendium)

[Telok]

Some people want to consider anything that started as vegetable matter a legitimite use of the spell/power. They will contend that anything refined, distilled, or that has at least one base part that is a vegetable is a legitimate result. This leads to claims of characters producing gallons of poisons, liqueurs, pure alcohol, turpentine, morphine, solvents, naphtha, latex, resins, adhesives, etc., etc.

Generally when people start arguing for aerosol skin absorbed toxins from a first level spell I feel that they need slapping down. There is no evidence that the spell/power provides anything more than gross physical shaping such as spinning, weaving, or carpentry.

Go with dead plants (that does include fungus) and plant parts that has been physically shaped. Don't allow chemical processes or extractions. Note that there are a few raw plant saps that have interesting effects, whether or not you include those is up to you. Do remind your players that they are not the first Int 20+ wizards/psions in the world and if they really want this abuse to work then it works for the NPCs too.

[Rubik]

small creatures like Halflings probably digest faster.Yeah. They're like Chinese food. No matter how much you eat, you're always hungry after about two hours.

Also, they never come with enough duck sauce.

[Chronos]

Quoth Darrin:

Pimento (40 GP/oz, A&EG)
Saffron (15 GP/lb, PHB)
Whoa, really? They list pimento as being over 40 times more valuable, by weight, than saffron? For comparison, in our world, you can get pimento for less than a dollar a pound, while saffron is over six bucks for a single gram.

Oh, and D&D worlds might not have anything called "nanocellulose", but they do have plant-derived materials that are as strong as metals. Maybe that's really what ironwood actually is. In which case, you can Minor Create something with the stats of ironwood.

[drack]

Some people want to consider anything that started as vegetable matter a legitimite use of the spell/power. They will contend that anything refined, distilled, or that has at least one base part that is a vegetable is a legitimate result. This leads to claims of characters producing gallons of poisons, liqueurs, pure alcohol, turpentine, morphine, solvents, naphtha, latex, resins, adhesives, etc., etc.

Generally when people start arguing for aerosol skin absorbed toxins from a first level spell I feel that they need slapping down. There is no evidence that the spell/power provides anything more than gross physical shaping such as spinning, weaving, or carpentry.

Go with dead plants (that does include fungus) and plant parts that has been physically shaped. Don't allow chemical processes or extractions. Note that there are a few raw plant saps that have interesting effects, whether or not you include those is up to you. Do remind your players that they are not the first Int 20+ wizards/psions in the world and if they really want this abuse to work then it works for the NPCs too.

Lolz, I'm forced to agree. :smallbiggrin:

[MyrPsychologist]

Whoa, really? They list pimento as being over 40 times more valuable, by weight, than saffron? For comparison, in our world, you can get pimento for less than a dollar a pound, while saffron is over six bucks for a single gram.

Oh, and D&D worlds might not have anything called "nanocellulose", but they do have plant-derived materials that are as strong as metals. Maybe that's really what ironwood actually is. In which case, you can Minor Create something with the stats of ironwood.

Pretty sure that ironwood is just ironwood like in the real world. There are some EXTREMELY dense and durable woods in the world that have been used by a variety of cultures. I myself own a cane made of black ironwood that is both durable and sturdy enough to break bones.

[Chronos]

Yes, we have things called ironwood, but you can't make a functional edged sword out of hornbeam or lignam vitae. Actually, there are a lot of things you can't make out of them, since all of the species called "ironwood" are very small trees: An ironwood walking stick is an entire tree trunk. The D&D material, though, can do anything steel can do, and in significant size.

[Darrin]

Whoa, really? They list pimento as being over 40 times more valuable, by weight, than saffron? For comparison, in our world, you can get pimento for less than a dollar a pound, while saffron is over six bucks for a single gram.


The A&EG lists saffron as 65 GP/oz, which may be a little closer to historical accuracy. However, the 3.5 PHB was printed after the A&EG, and it lists saffron at 15 GP/lb. The 3.5 PHB takes precedence over the A&EG as far as RAW is concerned.

If you summon or bind a djinn, you can get him to use his major creation SLA to create 20 cubic feet of vegetable matter with a permanent duration. Unfortunately, I've never been able to nail down a reliable density for saffron. My best guess using some napkin math is 1 pound = 16 ounces = 2 cups (dry) = 1 pint (dry) = 0.019444 cubic feet.

Black Lotus Extract is efficacious, though. 20 cubic feet has a market price of about 86 million GP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10040483&postcount=5).

[Chronos]

Saffron probably has a true density about the same as water (pretty much all organic materials do, ±10% or so), but with dry volumes, you've got packing efficiency to worry about, too, which usually amounts to about a factor of 1/2. So a pint of saffron is probably only about half a pound (which is still an insanely large amount).

[Mr Adventurer]

Presumably you could create a single massive pumpkin. Or peach.

[(Un)Inspired]

I say, make some Flux slime.

[Rubik]

Presumably you could create a single massive pumpkin. Or peach.http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121125150105/mlp/images/0/00/Apple_Bloom_showing_Babs_summer_float_S3E4.png

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